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Broadband Over Power Lines in Canada

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the rest-of-the-world-still-dialing-up dept.

Patchw0rk F0g writes "From Europe, we jump to la belle province of Quebec for the latest test of broadband internet over power lines (Real Player stream available.) Seems the utility is already utilizing the system to control traffic lights and such, and is exploring the possibilities of offering a cheaper service to consumers to compete with DSL/cable/satellite. Lower prices? I'm all for it... but I live in TORONTO!"

30 of 254 comments (clear)

  1. Amateur HF Band Issues by Kymermosst · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Anyone know if they've done any work on the issues with BPL and interference on the HF bands?

    I, for one, do not welcome the interference from BPL in the HF bands.

    --
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
    1. Re:Amateur HF Band Issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I just got an arrl newsletter telling all of their members to contact their congressmen and tell them what a bad idea this is. Apparently, according to ARRL research, broadband over powerlines causes significant interference not just in ham bands but across the spectrum. Although I havn't exactly looked at the research in detail, I can't see how the power companies could avoid interference. Powerlines aren't shielded, and for any reasonable bandwidth to be passed through the powerlines, the frequency would have to be high enough that a significant amount of power would have to be used. Unshielded wire is always agood antenna, and for some situations the best. Granted it won't be well tuned, but I've seen worse situations cause a lot of interference. My home is near high voltage power lines (read a large part of San Francisco's power) and even at 60hz, I get interfering harmonics all the way up into 10 meters. Avoiding electrical grid contamination is something every ham has fought with. Hopefully I'm wrong, but unless there is some way of preventing interference, this seems like one of those thngs that will be really good for pacbell and really bad for the rest of the wireless world.

    2. Re:Amateur HF Band Issues by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Informative
      BPL works by using the power lines as the medium for a radio-frequency modem. The problem is that the power lines work as antennas to radiate that radio frequency into their surroundings. You can't really "focus" it. It just goes into the air, and tends not to go down the wire where you want it since the power line is so bad a medium for high frequencies. So you have to use lots of power, which means a very strong signal in the air.

      And of course the BPL providers don't care how much they pollute the radio spectrum.

      Bruce

      --
      Bruce Perens.
    3. Re:Amateur HF Band Issues by Myself · · Score: 4, Informative

      Phone lines are twisted, so they don't tend to radiate much of the radio energy that's poured into them. HomePNA kicks out some noise but it's nothing compared to BPL.

      Power lines are widely spaced, unevenly spaced, and not twisted. From the perspective of a radio signal, power lines are not transmission lines: they're antennae! BPL also works over much longer distances than HomePNA, meaning that the power levels involved are much larger. Dumping tons of RF onto the power grid will simply turn it into a massive radio jammer.

      John Q. Public should be worried. In times of civic emergency, ham radio operators need all the spectrum they can get. Find a local amateur radio club and attend a meeting -- you'd be surprised how much stuff goes on behind the scenes. Hams are hobbyists, refining their equipment and honing their skills "for fun", but then swinging into action during emergencies to maintain communications when other methods fail.

      Destroying a large chunk of the radio spectrum will not help anyone. BPL is technically inferior to cable and DSL, and it's only being hyped by those who see opporunity for profit without regard for technical or civic responsibilities.

    4. Re:Amateur HF Band Issues by esj+at+harvee · · Score: 3, Informative
      Remember when PC chip approached the GHz, there was a bunch of people that were fearing they would interfere with TV and other applicance? None of that happened.

      actually, the things that happened were much sooner than that. Back in the bad old days of S. 100 bus systems, there was significant interference to radio and television. If there was a computer turned on, FM radios and over the air television was useless. The FCC stepped in and required certification for emissions levels. As result you'll now find on every piece of gear some form of class A or B certification listing. As result, there is very little interference no matter what CPU frequency. Assuming of course, you can keep the top on ;-)

      x10 is very low-frequency control signals. Below the range of most receivers. Not so with the case of BPL. It uses spectrum from roughly 1 MHz all the way up through 80-100 MHz. As others have pointed out, it also has the problem that if something radiates, it can also receive which means any user of the HF spectrum like aircraft and military can easily interfere with BPL

  2. One point in its favor. by Hanzie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It actually seems to work. I've seen 'demonstrations' before where it couldn't even control traffic lights.

    If they're actually doing anything, it's a success, and it just needs scaling up. Even if it's a totally shared bus network, it could have _some_ uses. Just depends on what speed is available and what it's really going to cost to get hooked in.

    I'd be a bit worried about the surges, though. Remember that a lightning bolt has already jumped through a mile or three (or more) of air, and blowing through your surge protector to eat your favorite game box isn't much more of a step.

    Yes, I know that power systems have exactly the same problem, it's just that they're generally designed to absorb small spikes, and sometimes folks forget the modem is another route for bored electrons.

    Best of luck to 'em.

    --
    ********* sig: If you don't like the law, get filthy stinking rich, and buy a better one.
    1. Re:One point in its favor. by pVoid · · Score: 3, Insightful
      While I applaud your educated warning at us poor users, I would like to remind you that we're not gonna plug the cable right out of the power grid into our ethernet card.

      There most likely will be a modem of some sort that connects to the plug and has an ethernet output. Such a device is just as vulnerable but not any more vulnerable than any other electric device.

      Also, I don't know what you talk about: bandwidth? Electric wires probably have monstruous bandwidth. The wires are made to carry much more current than a phone line was ever designed to, and most probably much more than a coax cable as well. Something tells me the bandwidth is going to be several orders of magnitude higher than conventional lines we're used to.

    2. Re:One point in its favor. by pe1rxq · · Score: 5, Informative

      Bandwidth has nothing to do with the current through a line (or not much....)
      A normal power line has been designed for 50hz (or 60hz) AC. A coax cable was designed for frequencies in the Mhz to Ghz range. A telephone line was designed for atleast several Khz (speach).
      The dampening of a power line will be far greater than a coax cable.
      The same is for shielding. A power line is very suceptable for interference from the outside and can radiate itself far more. That is why greater bandwidth (higher frequencies) will be a huge problem on these lines.
      Simply put: They weren't designed for this.

      Jeroen

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
  3. Nortel by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a telecom Engineer working as a sys and network admin, this just sounds too out there to be viable. Nortel isn't one to trash a technological standard unless they've really tested it. There's quite a few issues with power spikes, power filters, etc that would seem to make this an unlikely competitor. Plus, the market is already crowded with cable, DSL, satellite, and wireless carriers (Sprint) providing WiFi ISP coverage.

  4. Re:security by mholt108 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    there is a fair wallop more current going through the grid than cable. it would be easier to pick up EM flux - especially from telegraph pole cables.

  5. Re:security by thynk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good point! One would hope that they have a way to keep your packets from being sniffed on the lines.

    My biggest concern with this is the ammount of line noise in my house. Even a slow protocall like the one that X10 uses is full of errors (usually the type that turns my bedroom light on in the middle of the night).

    --

    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
  6. Single point of failure by Gary+Destruction · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Power loss will also mean communication loss. If a business is using broadband instead of T1, they risk losing communication in the event of a power failure. Sure, they probably have a UPS but that's not going to keep their WAN links alive.

    It's very scary to think of so many things being handled by one main line.

    1. Re:Single point of failure by mattjb0010 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If the power is gone, the communications are gone anyways, so where is the issue?

      I was over in the US when the recent blackout occurred. I still had about an hours worth of net access after the blackout occurred thanks to backup power on the network and the battery in my powerbook. So it's not necessarily gone.

    2. Re:Single point of failure by Gary+Destruction · · Score: 3, Insightful

      UPS = Uninteruptable Power Supply.

  7. redundancy by nounderscores · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I like BPL as an interim solution before we get fiber to our houses, but in the end I *want* three cables going into my home - power, data and voice. Note that data and voice are separate. I also like having a landline and a cell phone.

    Whenever I hear about multiple utilities becoming reliant on one system of infrastructure I always think of that telco parody which starts with:

    "Hello? AT&T? I seem to be having problems with my phone..."

  8. No Sydkraft Internet Service by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Swedish company Sydkraft also offers the service.

    Sydkraft announced a copule of years ago that they would provide Internet over power line. Except for a small pilot project nothing ever happened.

    The reality is that PLC might be technically possible, but the cost of deployment is much higher than compeeting technologies such as: ADSL, Cable Internet and Wireless Local Loop (WLL).

    It seams that power companies like to run trials to test the technology, and make unrealistic press releases.

  9. I live in Montreal by RobPiano · · Score: 3, Informative

    I live in Montreal, but I'm from Chicago. The prices on broadband here are a factor of two less than chicago and many places offer nice features like a static IP. In general the net is faster than I had with similar service in the states.

  10. Hydro Quebec are really out in front here by Space+Coyote · · Score: 4, Informative

    But it's to be expected, as they have the most advanced powerlines going. Remember that little blackout y'all had last Summer? As soon as the loss of power hit the Quebec border the chain reaction was stopped cold by the connections to the Quebec system. People in Ottawa could look across to the bright lights of Hull just next door. This is thanks to the massive rebuilding that was required after the 1998 ice storm. Having to transmit power from damns way up north down to the south (the longest-distance power lines in the world, i believe) also means they had to learn how to deal with the effects of solar flares on power transmission. So basically if anybody knows about the issues that affect power lines, it's these guys.

    --
    ___
    Cogito cogito, ergo cogito sum.
  11. Sounds like a scam to me by Evets · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It reminds me of a scam run on the US Government in the late 90's. Millions of dollars were granted to a company which had demonstrated such a system. Turns out it was nothing more than a RF modem.

    As I recall, the system was immune to scrutiny in order to protect the Intellectual Property of the company.

    Also... I remember several people citing the impossibility of broadband over power lines because of the interference caused by transformers on the above ground power lines. In order to enable broadband over power lines, you would have to either find a way to sustain a pure signal through the existing hardware (deemed impossible), or design and add a piece of hardware at every transformer.

    I read about this in Wired if anyone cares to go searching for it. The article was entitled Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, printed at some point in 2002, but I was unsuccessful in locating the article in a brief attempt at searching their online archive.

  12. It's not all good... by JimDog · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think it's been mentioned here on slashdot before, but broadband-over-powerline systems have many drawbacks. Because power lines are not shielded, they will act as very effective radiating antennas for the signals they carry. Many of the proposed broadband systems utilize frequency ranges that overlap military, emergency, commercial and amateur radio bands, with the potential to cause a great deal of harmful interference to users of those services. Many countries, including Japan, the UK, and the Netherlands have already rejected broadband-over-powerline technology for this reason. Check out this page for more info:
    http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/HTML/plc/

  13. A great opportunity by tritone · · Score: 3, Funny

    What a great opportunity for an enterprising geek to win a Darwin award by hooking his computer up to an overhead power line!

  14. Shocking prediction by lewko · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can't WAIT to see AOL users shoving Ethernet cables into their power socket.

    "You've got Bzzzztttttaaaarrrrggghhhhhhhhhh"

    --
    Do you or your partner snore? - Visit www.snoring.com.au
  15. Toronto eh? by phorm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well, then perhaps soon we'll see people tapping into power lines instead of wardriving for illegal pr0n.

    Seriously though... a power-line is fairly noisy and/or is accessible to the general masses, more so than a phone-line. How does one tag an ID on individual customers (a meter is generally read manually?).

    If it were integrated into meters the meter-reader could be out of the job, but could people bypass the meter and pull a little fancy hackery in order to get onto the power co's network? I could see spammers and other illegal users try to take advantage of this...

  16. BPL pollution by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Informative
    BPL makes a total mess of the wireless spectrum wherever it's used. HF receivers are 10 dB over S-9 with the interference. There are lots of users of that HF spectrum. And of course the BPL promoters attitude is "F**k-you, wireless users! We've got money to be made, and if it causes you pollution, that's too damn bad!"

    The fact is that even DSL causes interference, because the twisted-pair phone wires weren't designed to convey those high frequencies and leak like a sieve. Now, go to power lines, which are not twisted-pair, have no form of shielding whatsoever, and simply aren't designed for frequencies over 60 Hz. They radiate like antennas.

    Traffic lights take very little bandwidth to operate, generally they are on a 200 KHz system that works like the X-10 switches many people have in their homes. It's not good for much more. The claims of greater bandwidth than cable or DSL are absurd.

    Bruce

    --
    Bruce Perens.
  17. RWE Powerline in Germany: dead by XenonChloride · · Score: 4, Informative
    While the article states:
    German utilities company RWE started offering Internet service over power lines the summer of 2001...
    it fail to mention that this service went out of business again in summer 2002.
  18. Security Issues? by Shonufftheshogun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Does this seem scary to anyone else that these traffic lights would be internet accessible? If some script kiddies decided to have some fun, lives could be lost.

  19. Don't get too excited! by zeptic · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here in Denmark several projects about bringing Broadband to users through powerlines has been abanded. The costs up-front for the avarage user are just to high compared to establishing an ADSL-connection.

  20. upp and running in Iceland by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    The power company in iceland already has this service upp and running, www.fjoltengi.is although you probably wont understand it,
    They claim a speed of 4mb/s but say that it can drop to 256kb/s at most.

    Costs about $40 us a month, and only 50Gb download is included. (Inside Iceland)

  21. If you live in TORONTO... by peter_gzowski · · Score: 4, Informative

    then you probably have cheap enough DSL. There are 66 DSL providers, according to Canadian ISP. I don't know how much cheaper than $20 CDN (that's about $15 USD) you can expect. You can expect to pay $30 CDN for higher-than-average speeds (1700kb/s down, 300kb/s up), and/or no caps. Let's see power line internet beat that.

    --
    "Now gluttony and exploitation serves eight!" - TV's Frank
  22. That's *already* working in Spain by JackRabbitSlims · · Score: 3, Informative

    The main electricity companies in Spain are already given service or close to do it (depending on the company) on cities like Zaragoza, Barcelona or Sevilla.
    Article in spanish here and Babelfish translation to english here.