MMORPG Item-Accumulating 'Sweatshops' On Rise?

Thanks to Play Money for its post discussing the rise of the big-business MMORPG trading entrepreneur, with particular reference to Internet Gaming Entertainment, of which weblog author Julian Dibbell says: "In addition to the half dozen executive types working out of IGE's Boca Raton headquarters, the company employs another 65 Chinese citizens at its Hong Kong base of operations, the majority engaged in 24/7 delivery of virtual goods." He continues: "Imagine, furthermore, my wonder at learning that some of IGE's chief suppliers are mainland Chinese subcontractors running EverQuest-playing sweatshops in the hinterlands (at a level of production perhaps only hinted at in the famous but abortive Black Snow sweatshop in Tijuana)."

Comments

Sooo....

[darkmayo]

How long will it be before these are moved to India. :P /joking

EQ Sweatshop

[Anonymous Coward]

So these poor people are forced to play EQ all day and only given enough money for food? This leaves but one question, where do I sign up?

MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

In order to advance to a stage where a MMOG has an actual economy, it needs some form of export, hence a GDP. More money should come in than goes out.
While each and every game out there is still a closed economy (where for party X to go home with 100$, party Y must lose 100$, and party Company-That-Runs-The-Game must also make ends meet as a prerequisite), item trade is a somewhat unexpected (to me at least) way for this to become an open one. I always imagined they'd think of some way for MMOG lurkers to generate something actually _useful_. Like share their CPU or generate content on their own. Or something.

And yet, once people have applied the meaning of value to items within a game, and others are willing to lay out real hard american green cash in order to own them, this plainly shows that the game world managed to generate something of value to the outside world. That's a very substantial step, and it's completely unsurprising that someone for whom this would make economic sense (who can employ people at 5$/month) would take this up as a very real business opportunity.

I wonder just how much global market there is for Maces of Thwappage +5.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[GodHead]

It's not the items that have the value - it's the time involved in getting the item that has value, or the time to level up the charecter that has value. If there was no time involved in getting the items, they would be worth considerably less if anything at all.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

Wrong. The items/levelup _have_ value.

I could say the same for money. It's not the possibilities that money offers that give it value, but rather the effort gone into obtaining it. The value lies in the effort, and the money in itself has no value whatsoever. From a purely psychological standpoint that could be a partial truth, but nobody sees the world that way today. We all commonly agree that money _has_ value, and so does any commodity, be it virtual or not, that people are willing to pay money for.

You see, value passes. If you bought a carton of milk and paid for it with money, that carton of milk HAS VALUE. Otherwise, you wouldn't have paid for it.

Same goes with time and virtual posessions. People pay for them with time (or money), and get them as a reward. If they thought like you that these items have no value to begin with, they wouldn't have invested their time or money in acquiring them.

I could (truthfully) claim the same for other "virtual" stuff that people apply monetary value to, in spite them not taking anything (other than an experience or feeling) home with them after paying:

How about _attending_ an Irish music concert?
Or _seeing_ the Greek island of Santorini?

Technically, none of those is a substantial item, and yet they all quite assuredly have a very real value - easy to spot once you see people taking wallets out of their pockets.

What you're saying is something along my grandmother's [somewhat subjective] "Your music is worthless" . Yep. Quite a few people agree. Pink Floyd sucks. Not worth a penny. That's exactly why those guys are flat broke.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[I am Kobayashi]

Right, the prior poster's point, I believe, was that the value of the items is not intrinsic - it is solely based on the value a person places on their real world time.

1 million SWG credits are only worth the value I place on my time that I believe it would take to acquire those credits.

So for example if I think I can acquire 50k credits an hour in SWG, and I value my hour of time at 1 dollar, then I would probably only be willing to pay 1 dollar for 50k credits. It is not the credits themselves that determine the value I am willing to pay, it is the value I place on my time.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

You're absolutely right, but only if an assumption (which you or the first poster automatically assume as true) is indeed true.

What you said is true if you're thinking PROFIT.
If you'll eventually take that amount of time you spent and either calculate how much money you'd have earned elsewhere in the same amount of time, or how much cash you need to pay your Hong Kong sweatshop employee.

It's not true when you play for FUN, much like you don't go visit Santorini for profit either.

My point being that people who play for FUN, to whom above poster's statement applies, compose a large chunk of the virtual item acquisition market, and that those people don't connect the value of the Mace of Thwappage to the value of the time spent obtaining it.

Much like you don't compare the value of a trip to Santorini to the value of time you spent working for the money it cost you to travel there. You just enjoy the trip.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[SuiteSisterMary]

Well, there's two ways to go about this.

One, of course, would be to remove the concept of 'spawning.' Monsters would reproduce, there's be villages in the hinterland training warriors, producing crude weapons for them, and so on. Wipe out that goblin village, and you won't see many goblins around for a while.

The easier, and perhaps as good, would be to introduce multiple currencies. If all the goblins in the came carry GoblinBucks, but the merchants in town only take EverCard (accepted by more Merchants around the world) then you need to convert the currencies. If lots of newbies have been out whacking Goblins, well, GoblinBucks ain't worth so much all of the sudden.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[Tofino]

Under your model, you get a cycle of rampant deflation, since goods constantly enter the marketplace and encounter at best steady demand.

The situation is a bit more interesting than that. There's a real world parallel that isn't even much of a stretch. Take a RL hunter, killing a buck, and selling the trophies and the meat. This is essentially goods that comes "out of nowhere", but sells for real money, and there is always demand.

The parallel breaks in two points. The proportion of RL hunters to game hunters is VERY low. Also, the RL items are mostly consumables, whereas in game items tend to me more along the lines of the +5 Mace of Thwopping. Still, deer in RL have a 100% drop rate of a head (if you shoot them right), meat, etc. -- not so in games :). Also, in RL if you have a deer head on your wall, you're probably good for rustic decorations. In a game, you ALWAYS need more maces of thwopping.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[bigbigbison]

so what we are talking about here is use value versus exchange value, right? My $9.99 watch has exactly the same use value as someone's multihundred dollar rolex (or multithousand dollar? I really don't know). They both tell time. Mine even has the date on it.

however, the exchange value of the rolex is much much greater because of the prestige associated with being able to afford one.

so it seems like the same thing with online games. To the guy on the street, a particular item in a game has no use value, but to certain people it has a high exchange value.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[code_nerd]

It seems to me that introducing multiple currencies would add complexity to the economy but would not actually change things that much. Sure, GoblinBucks may devalue if Ub3rGu1ld goes to camp the Goblin Shiznit or whatever, but then they can just go somewhere less camped, like Trollville, and farm Trollbucks and feed those into the economy instead (saving their GoblinBucks for when the economy swings the other way).

Sounds sophisticatd, but all it means is that the farmers would move from place to place like locusts instead of staying in one or two spots. I am not sure what problem that solves. The game economy is still a mess, albeit a tougher one for the devs to try and balance/fix.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[SuiteSisterMary]

Exactly; at least it would keep things moving, keep people from camping individual mobs.

As was said, the basic problem is that money appears from nowhere and is dumped into the economy. In a real economy, this would cause massive inflation. But in a real economy with multiple currencies, this only devaulates the currency being flooded; other currencies would be fine.

Another fix, of course, would be for beasties to not carry money; if you wants to get paid, you gots to find work. Maybe that's bounties, maybe that's something else.

But then, most fantasy worlds can barely handle a single party of adventurers, let alone a planet full of them.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[ShadowDrake]

proportion of RL hunters to game hunters is VERY low

Also, RL prey dries up. If the magenta sludge is extinct, the items it supplies will become pricy fast

I'd like to see value-add products. If you have to take your iron filings to a high-level smith to get a good weapon, the economy would collapse if nobody will become a smith.

Re:MMOG's, value and item trade

[MikShapi]

Okay, since you brought up the inflation topic, might as well brandish a braincell or two on it.

I'd say you're right, game economics are governed by physics (spawning, item decay, etc.) that aim to mimic RL, but sometimes do so poorly.
And yes, you could very easily reach a point of massive inflation, as quite a few MMOGs found out.

That's where the game dev's job comes in. Prior to going to work on the artwork and the 3D engine, you (as a game economy designer - hmm, I smell a new profession, and new university courses) have to design a supply/demand system that:
Major goal: is diverse enough for people want to play and be unique in.
This means:
A. Involves many diverse professions that manufacture items.
B. Creates a market for those items.
C. Since more and more items are created all the time, you'd need to build an item-decay system into the game, such as item-durability that deteriorates over time on all in-game items, at a rate that is deduced from the amount of said item in the game, or form its monetary value.
This in iteself is a two-edged sword, because when people stash stuff and it rusts away and dies, they'll lose interest, and you'll lose them.
D. Your game must be able to handle (artificially balance out) shortages in supply, like where there are not enough blacksmiths.

None of this is really news, and all MMOG designer teams out there had their share with brainstorming sessions, where they idea-pounded these subjects all the way to china and back.

My point in all this being that since, like a real economy is controlled, balanced and tweaked by a government to avoid extreme cases of inflation and deflation, a MMOG can be just as easily (probbably more easily) artificially steered away from the same extreme cases using well-thought-through economic balance tweaking.

Your doomsday claim of "But there will be inflation!!" is like saying "But there will be accidents!!" when you hear of an inflation called cars. Yes, when people do stupid things, there will. When they don't, there won't. Does that make the concept bad? I don't think so.

Realization..

[Hott of the World]

Ok, the real world and MMORPGS are mixing way too much for my tastes.

Soon, there will be as many people working in the game as there are playing it.

Oh well.. The Gaming Companies should realize this potential, and just start selling items, gold, and characters for money..

But then again, all those accounts.. the monthly fee's alone keep the businesses happy.

Re:Realization..

[shaka999]

Well the companies may get extra accounts but I think the problems it causes far outweigh any gains. MMORPGS are supposed to be an escape from the real world, when people can just buy their way in it ruins some of the appeal. This is the main reason the compaines don't sell items themselves. Customers would leave.

I realize selling has been going on ebay for as long as the games have existed but thats really just a drop in the bucket, not the large scale being produced by these external companies. I think the game makers need to come out forcefully against any buying or selling of items or characters for real money. Enforcement is difficult or impossible but when they find examples the characters involved should be banned as an example to others. Put a little risk in it and people might not want to drop $500 for a different character.

Re:Realization..

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon, there will be as many people working in the game as there are playing it.

As long as there is high-speed pizza delivery, I have no objections to this.

Re:Realization..

[IvoryRing]

And, just what is the impact when the in-game resources gained for sale are gathered via exploiting game bugs? And when the exploit of those bugs causes two problems for 'regular' players: 1.) disruption of service be the exploit itself, 2.) swelling the supply of said resource, hence lowering the price to the point that only players willing to exploit are able to gather enough of the resource to actually make an in-game profit.

My point? Just as Walmart has made 'being the proprietor of a 5-and-dime store' decidedly less fun, these 'big money store' operations make being a crafter/supplier much less fun in-game.

It's a shame.

Re:Realization..

[*weasel]

That idea has been proven false in practice. Simutronics (numerous times) and Sony (less directly with their platinum EQ servers) have done this effectively, along with others (mostly for-pay MUDs).

What customers want, is consistancy. Companies that create a seperate server with purchase-able items and content have not received any such backlash. Indeed the only malcontent from players over the practice at large, is the mixing of people who 'bought' their character/gear and the people who 'earned' it.

Massmog companies need to realize that this 'black' market for items only exists because the demand is great. If they simply legitimized the tactic on specific servers (more likely provide isolated servers for the minority of 'purists'), the black market would die, and their own revenues would increase.

granted, administrating such a market is difficult, as each Mace of Thwacking Sony sells in EQ would decrease its own value. but the black market shops have figured that out, as have the makers of Magic The Gathering Online.

When the rules force a pent-up demand to be filled only by illegal means, then it will invariably wind up supporting other illegal activities. First Prohibition, then the War on Drugs, and now (to a lesser extent) 'illegal' massmog character/item sales.

Re:Realization..

[shaka999]

Thanks for the well thought out reply.

I would agree that consistency is the main issue. As long as I, the consumer, know what the rules are on a given server then I can make the choice up front. Personally I can't imagine going to a server where everthing is forsale but thats just me.

One of the things that really seems to motivate people on these games is, of course, character building. If your on a server where anything can be purchased whats the point? I know there is a large group that will say content, adventure, friends, ...., but content and adventure become trivialized if there isn't challenge. I would buy the argument that a casual gamer may want to buy certain things to keep up with friends that play more [so they can continue to play with them].

Re:Realization..

[*weasel]

Hey, I'm with you. It makes me sick in my heart just to -know- that games let people -pay- for hand-tailored characters, quests and loot.

naturally, some of this comes from the massive time investment these games demand, versus the immediate gratification our society craves. to some people, if they have the money to spend, why not? if it's going to 'save' them 3 months.

but outside all that, some people just really seem to enjoy playing through games with cheats, and more powerful characters than you're 'supposed' to have. Even in single player games.

But it is a reality. And as reality often is, it's a dirty one. People are -going- to pay for this sort of service in any sufficiently popular game. The responsible solution is to legitimize the practice, section it off from people who don't want to participate, and then make an honest attempt to crack down on the underground markets on 'pure' servers.

personally i think simply making it easy to do, and making it so a purchaser can transfer his character if he decides to buy something (so they don't have to start over) -- then people will tend toward the legit route. Which is better for all involved. Purchasers don't get ripped off, purists don't get cheesed off, and proprieters make more money.

Re:Realization..

[Scorchio]

You just wait until the Inland Revenue folks realise that plenty of things are being bought and sold right under their noses, tax free!

My tax return form is complex enough without having to remember how many rat skins I sold between April 2002 and April 2003. Or can I argue it's all off-shore, and hence tax-exempt?

How long..........

[FinestLittleSpace]

.......before nike buys into this idea.

Get your mace and super duper nike air shoes for 4000 rupees at Augustus's Lair!

Re:How long..........

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't heard of There, Inc.? It is a massively multiplayer online 'game.' Nike is one of their corporate sponsors.

"NIKE, Inc: Digital versions of Nike's AirMax 2003 and Nike's Zoom Celar have been created and are available for purchase by members. Members who buy these Nike shoes for their avatars will find an immediate performance benefit -- they can run faster. "

Kind of sickening really. You can't even escape corporate advertising in the virtual world anymore.

Virtual Economies.

[Jeffool]

The combination of time and resources that goes into developing virtual goods to produce an assumed 'worth' is comparable, at least on a base level, to the developing of real world goods. So if players spend 60 hours a week trying to achieve goals, attain resources, etc, do they have nothing for their time(or 'work'?)

I've got no problem with a game saying that people can/cannot sell virtual content. So long as they are completely upfront with the player before they have to buy the game, I think each developer has the right to decide if they want to allow this or not.

Those that do not simply adhere to the current system, with perhaps some better ways to insure that people don't sell characters (the larger issue, as I see it.) Ways such as refusing to transfer a character until after a certain time after it's creation, or refusing to transfer to a person with a different name or address.

Others should allow an in-game way of selling items for real world money, only with a small 'tax' for things over a certain amount. Say, for anything over $20, the seller is docked 10% (or some amount, whatever) as a tax for living in the 'land'. Wouldn't it be great to see a note on the bank wall reading "The kingdom is doing wonderful! Everyone will be expected to pay $5 less of their monthly contributions for the month of January! -signed, the King"? It's not an insane idea given the business model. Developers could reduce the users' monthly fees if things went well. This would be especially helpful to early adopters, as that's when you'd probably see the largest influx of people, fawning of the cool new scheme. As long as they don't "over" charge when the economy sucks.....

Jeffool
Just some guy.

Re:Virtual Economies.

[1arkhaine]

That is a fantastic idea. I would love to see some sort of reward in place for characters that make a profit for their particular shard or whatever.

But, it does raise some interesting problems. If something like this is to become common, then there will be servers devoted entirely to selling and buying, with little or no regard to the game itself. Now, while this may benefit the developers (Who want the money) and the players who enjoy camping over spawn points, for me, this would help kill off the actual game part of the game.

I suppose though if there were servers dedicated to this sort of selling then it would be ok, but then a 'This Kingdom is doing wonderful...' message wouldn't be a happy event so much as an expected occurance from the scummers.

Just a thought.

What's the Bottom Line?

[Slider451]

It's one thing to invest your time doing something you enjoy and get something back. Arts and crafts shows thrive on this idea. But to farm items in a game strictly for monetary gain seems like a waste. I haven't seen any quantifiable data on this. What is the actual return on time investment?

Consider the days it takes to get a character to a decent level with decent enough equipment and keys to access the choice areas, and the camping time for the rare spawns. How could that possibly earn one a decent wage? I suppose it's better than working in an actual sweat shop if that's your only alternative. But I'd think people savvy enough to max EQ could find respectable employment elsewhere.

How long before the Publisher gets in on the act?

[MBraynard]

SOme of these communites, like UO, are being run by companies that are very sensitive to the opportunity to get additional profits. And no matter how cheaply these companies are selling stuff for, the publisher can ALWAYS undercut their prices and drive them out of the market. Question is, when will this happen?

What ever happened to fun?

[PktLoss]

I buy games for entertainment.
I play games for an escape.

My goal when playing Diablo II, or Warcraft III isnt to have the biggest baddest charecter, or to win in the least amount of time. It is to have fun.

Paying hard earned real-world-dollars (RWD) to get virtual euipment, land, whatever just makes no cents.

Gaining the equipment, fighting the monster, challenging whomever is where the fun lies.

Its the journey not the destination.

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[V_M_Smith]

That, however, is only your opinion. For others, the fun lies in having a kick-ass character and being able to hand the BBEG his head on a platter without breaking a sweat.

If "getting there is half the fun", then logically, the rest of the fun happens once you've arrived. Some people want to get there more quickly. How does that affect your enjoyment of the game?

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying hard earned real-world-dollars (RWD) to get virtual euipment, land, whatever just makes no cents

Well, from the article, with the investment these item farmers are making, it does make cents!

Re:What ever happened to fun?

[Harald74]

On the other hand, I personally fix cars for fun, but it doesn't stop other people for doing it for money.

Just as I develop software to make a living. Again, people to that for kicks...

I have seen him on Player Auctions

[Anonymous Coward]

I have seen that guy on http://www.playerauctions.com, I keep hearing people say these types of auctions are closed by Ebay and yet Player Auctions continues to host these auctions and are growing. What gives?

Re:How long before the Publisher gets in on the ac

[tibike77]

Quote from one of the links (people should read before they comment, shouldn't they?):

[...]And then there are the companies that have decided to go for a piece of the action themselves. Last September, Origin, the Electronic Arts subsidiary that runs Ultima Online, dismayed veteran players and delighted noobs by announcing it would now be selling advanced characters custom-built at $29.95 a pop. Wisely, Origin set the fee roughly in line with auction prices for characters generally, thus avoiding the impression that they?re out to undercut and overtake Ultima?s unusually robust auction market[...]

Re:How long before the Publisher gets in on the ac

[MBraynard]

I read that and am aware; but I was talking about getting in on the little guy markets for gold pieces, rare items, etc.

Re:This would be cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that anything like buying low ICQ numbers on eBay?

Just like Ebay

[ibi]

Just like Ebay

A current nasty scam on Ebay is to hijack the account of someone who's built up a good reputation rating and then to do fraud through that account (e.g. sell something big that you have no intention of delivering - like a G4 Powerbook or such).

In a certain way buying an account from someone on EQ is the same (admittedly much less nasty) scam. What's different is the real currency being exchanged in game. In Ebay it's cash, in EQ its admiration. In Ebay you see someone with a good rep, you feel safe giving them your money. In EQ you see someone with a +bigSomething staff of whateveringImpressively you feel it might be appropriate to have them join your group that's going to camp the OverweightTrollOfAtkins.

But unfortunately, comes the day/hour of reckoning and there's no G4 and your enchanter has the grouping skills of a lizard.

(Two notes - I last played EQ long before "platinum servers" so the assumption players had was that you'd "earned" whatever you had *in game*. And yes, I know, that *we* know better than to bid on notebooks on ebay at unreal prices or [insert EQ equivalent] but such fraud does grind away at the broadening of the attraction of these sort of things for newbies...)

Solution: Reset

[frankjr]

I've got the solution to all the selling going on: just reset the games every couple of weeks or whatever. No one would want to buy something that will only last for a couple of weeks.

Re:This would be cool

[imitier]

I can vaguely understand wanting to buy virtual items from an MMORPG, so that you save the time in acquiring them, and gain the status of having rare/powerful items. But low ICQ numbers? I can't comprehend this at all? Is it a status thing, as in "I was here first?" Can someone explain this one?

Re:This would be cool

[TubeSteak]

haha.. you're number is higher than mine. eat it!

okay j/k Its a status thing like you said. I'm sure you have a friend who always gets the newest possible shit and likes to show it off/boast about it. Sometimes its just a perk, like the President flying in Air Force One and not Air Force 204 or the head of whatever with the 0001 vanity license plates... they just want to be loved :'(

Re:This would be cool

[WoTG]

Why not? People go to a lot of effort to get "good" phone numbers. ICQ numbers are used just as frequently... for some people at least.

Besides, 8's or 7's (and probably others in other cultures) are good luck. So, what's a little investment in a good ICQ number if it brings you good fortunes in the future? =)