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DVD Authoring In Linux

leming writes "This article in Linux Journal explains low-cost DVD authoring available in Linux. Traditionally, DVD authoring has been an expensive affair. Full-featured professional applications can cost thousands of dollars, while cheaper products, such as Apple's iDVD, have arbitrary restrictions that significantly reduce their usefulness. A new open-source effort, dvdauthor, is bringing the possibility of low-cost, professional-grade DVD authoring to Linux. Although it doesn't yet support all the features of the DVD specification, development is proceeding at a fast pace, and new features are being added with each release."

58 comments

  1. Great News by castlec · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now if I can just get the woman to let me buy a DVD burner and a nice DV camcorder I can get started on that professional homemade pron I've been waiting so long to make.

    --
    When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
  2. Hm..i think this is a wonderfull step for linux by Brutus+(moo) · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And for open source in general, if we can provide good open source solutions to things that until now cost alot of money, it is one of the strongest ways of supporting open source, providing however that the product really does do what is needed, and does it well (which in most cases i've seen with similar projects so far, was done extremely well, sometimes even better than the commercial product).

    1. Re:Hm..i think this is a wonderfull step for linux by ministerofsickeningr · · Score: 1

      see also "killer app"
      linux oh so needs that title

    2. Re:Hm..i think this is a wonderfull step for linux by nathanh · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And for open source in general, if we can provide good open source solutions to things that until now cost alot of money, it is one of the strongest ways of supporting open source,

      I disagree. I think that's one of the quickest ways of destroying open source.

      Open source is not about giving things away for free that otherwise would cost a lot of money. That's a recipe for a dead business and a lot of unemployed programmers. Open source is about empowering the user, empowering the third party developers, and leveraging the collaborative efforts of millions of programmers to achieve a common goal.

      If we start focussing purely on the monetary savings we lose sight of the actual benefits of open source; collaboration, community, sharing, empowerment, specialisation, customisation. All of those benefits aren't possible with closed-source software no matter what the cost.

  3. Article text (only two posts!) by chrestomanci · · Score: 4, Informative

    Trick out home videos with a fun, featureful menu system that viewers can navigate from a regular DVD player.

    Traditionally, DVD authoring has been an expensive affair. Full-featured professional applications can cost thousands of dollars, while cheaper products, such as Apple's iDVD, have arbitrary restrictions that significantly reduce their usefulness. A new open-source effort, dvdauthor, is bringing the possibility of low-cost, professional-grade DVD authoring to Linux. Although it doesn't yet support all the features of the DVD specification, development is proceeding at a fast pace, and new features are being added with each release. Together with a more established open-source toolkit, mjpegtools, this article explains how to construct a relatively complex DVD application, a photo album, with dvdauthor. We also illustrate the various features that dvdauthor currently supports and how to use open-source tools to construct a DVD-R that can play on almost every DVD player.
    How a DVD Works (Quick Version)

    A DVD is comprised of one or more video title sets (VTSes), which contain video information in the form of MPEG-2 video streams. Each disc can have up to 99 VTSes, and each title set can be subdivided further into as many as 99 chapters, allowing DVD players to jump to a certain point within the video stream. Within each VTS, a DVD can have up to eight different audio tracks and 32 subtitle tracks that the viewer can switch between at will. A menu system can be included within a title set, allowing the viewer to select between the different subtitle and audio tracks. An optional top-level menu, known as the video manager menu (VMGM), is used to navigate between the different title sets. One VTS may contain a feature film and another may contain a documentary on the film, and the VMGM allows viewers to select which one they want to watch.

    The DVD format doesn't eliminate the differences between the two competing broadcasting formats, NTSC (primarily used in America) and PAL (the standard in Europe and Japan). I live in Britain, so the frame information and resolution details used in this article are for a PAL system, but I point out the differences you need to be aware of when they appear and offer appropriate settings for an NTSC disc.

    The DVD specification includes advanced features, such as the concept of region coding, the possibility of viewing different angles of a video stream and simple computations using built-in registers provided by a DVD player. I don't know much about these features, and they aren't discussed in this article. The dvdauthor mailing list is a good source for further information.
    Planning

    Before we rush headlong into creating menus, subtitling and multiplexing, it's a good idea to sketch out the structure of the DVD with paper and pencil. Proprietary DVD tools offer GUI systems for creating this type of structure, but no such tools are available yet for DVD production on Linux. As you'll soon see, the command-line tools have a lot of different options, so having your ideas on paper is preferable to trying to keep everything in your head.

    The DVD application I'm creating is a photo album, using pictures that I took while studying abroad at UNC-Chapel Hill this past year. For simplicity's sake, I have only six photos in each category. On paper, I decide that the main menu (the VMGM unit) should have five buttons, four of which are simple text buttons (one for each different photo category), plus a secret link unlocking extra pictures (secret extra features are a common occurrence in commercial DVDs) and a music track playing in the background. The four regular buttons link to one of four menus, one for each different section. The menu system for each section consists of two menus and an audio track, with selectable preview images of the slideshow, a button to move onto the next set of preview images and two buttons that allow the viewer to watch the complete slideshow or go back to the main menu. To keep things simple, the photo slideshow s

    1. Re:Article text (only two posts!) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excuse me, but since when the FUCK is "PAL" the format in Japan? It's NTSC, morons.

  4. It's nice but... by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    (And I'll preface this with a comment that I've only lightly skimmed the article.)

    I've seen and heard, over and over, ad nauseum, programmers and OSS advocates continually ask me why I need more or say they don't see why people need all the extra UI features, since something like this can do it all. I'm glad to see this on Linux, the problem is that it still needs a good GUI before it'll get used by many people for DVD authoring (it might be used for the actual production process, but not as much for authoring).

    And, as I go into this, we reach one of the primary problems with OSS. If you're a computer person, a program like this is easy to use, since you're used to command line switches and piecing everything together by adding in images from Gimp and pulling in fragments from a number of programs. On the other hand, if you're a video producer, your focus is on CREATING THE VIDEO and PUTTING YOUR VISION on DVD. It is NOT on using the tools, figuring out the command line arguments, or other activites. While I've spent several years working as a programmer, my primary function is writing screenplays. Until OpenOffice came out, there was no word processor on Linux where I could run the program and focus ONLY on writing my screenplays (part of that is the need for macros to handle margin changes). Programmers and other computer people would say, "But you can do this with all the OSS word processors," and I'd say, "I can, but that means I have to spend my time thinking about HOW I'm doing my work, instead of focusing on the work itself."

    I love OSS, I love Linux. I know GUIs are a pain (I don't exactly love writing them myself), but for OSS to be used by professionals, like writers or DVD producers, the software has to be so easy to use that the end user can focus on their work instead of focusing on figuring out the software.

    Don't get me wrong -- it's great we're this far along. If I had time, I'd love to write a GUI wrapper, but I don't, and it'll be a long time before there is a GUI that makes this software accessible to DVD producers who just want to run the program and use it as a tool to help them realize their vision.

    1. Re:It's nice but... by ministerofsickeningr · · Score: 1

      please mod this up!! this is the key salient point.
      when creating its sooo important to keep focused on the task, not be distracted contstantly by your tools.

    2. Re:It's nice but... by karnal · · Score: 1

      I actually agree on this point -- it took me a while (not 2-3 minutes searching in google or on sourceforge) to find a suitable backup program so that I could convert my Win98SE backup machine to Linux (dds3 drive).

      I ended up going with Arkeia Light, because of the interface. Once I realized how to use the software (a little daunting because of the "enterprise" feel for something that I only needed "user" feel for) I realized that I could replace the box.

      A lot of what I read about other projects is either to just suck it up and use tar, or use Amanda (which doesn't span tapes...???!!!)... no real solution out there that I found other than Arkeia had a real GUI interface to it.

      And let's face it. If we don't give a good, usable interface to the users, they will not want to switch. I'm as comfortable on the command line as everyone else, but there are some tasks I just want the machine to do without me having to read too much documentation.

      --
      Karnal
    3. Re:It's nice but... by Ian+Pointer · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hey, I'm the writer :).

      Yes, you're absolutely right that video producers should be thinking about the video rather than wrestling with the tools. And yes, a GUI would make things a lot easier (there is an effort, Polidori under way to provide one). But on the other hand, commercial DVD authoring applications are not cheap, especially if you want one that takes advantage of the more esoteric features. dvdauthor on the other hand, doesn't have any of these restrictions, so if you're an amateur who wants to play around with making DVDs, but don't want to fork out the $1,000 or so for Scenarist, it's a good trade-off (also, the new release of dvdauthor has created a new way of specifying the layout, so it's not quite as hideous as my article makes out anymore ;)).

      But, yes, I am looking forward to the day when I can can click on GnomeDVD and drag MPEG2 across the desktop :)

    4. Re:It's nice but... by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with you. I know I will be using dvdauthor for testing and "playing around" with different features. On the other hand, even with my demo DVDs, I find there are times I use mroe "esoteric" features of DVD authoring.

      On a similar track (and this gets back to my original post, the one I'm replying to, and my point above), I first installed Linux using Suse 6.4. It took me a day or two to get it up and running, including my Internet connection. I would not, at that point, have recommended it to anyone who was a newbie (like I was). I think that was about 4 years ago. I just installed Mandrake 9.2 on a new system and was amazed -- other than needing to use network files for authentication, it was easier installing Mandrake than the last verison of Windows I installed.

      I am really amazed at how far UIs have progressed in Linux in the past four years (even the past 2 years). OSS is catching up with commercial software in many ways. I'd say it's about 95% there -- and it'll take a few years to reach that last 5%, which includes things like being able to use drag and drop as easily as it works on a certain other OS that tends to crash and including easy to use programs for multimedia work (like video editing and DVD authoring).

      I will likely have to buy a Mac G5 to do my video work. I'm sure OSS will eventually provide what I need, and when it does, I'll switch, but for now, I have to go with something I can use so I can focus on my work, not on how to use my tools.

    5. Re:It's nice but... by JohnFluxx · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this would be too specialist to merge with k3b?

    6. Re:It's nice but... by nathanh · · Score: 1
      I'm glad to see this on Linux, the problem is that it still needs a good GUI before it'll get used by many people for DVD authoring

      Myself included. I'm not afraid of the command line (it's still my preferred file manager) but I don't see myself using dvdauthor to whip up some photos. But that's not the point. Command line programs like dvdauthor are great for scripting. If you're generating 1000s of photos from an automated system and you need to spit out DVDs so the user can watch them in comfort then dvdauthor is perfect. You can write a perl script in a day or two that does all the work.

      It's exactly the same reason why imagemagick is so popular. If I'm touching up a photo or two, I use gimp. If I'm automating the backend of a web farm generating 1000s of photos with watermarks, I use imagemagick. After reading this article, I now know I can offer DVD functionality in future products I deliver. I didn't know that before. I'm enlightened and educated.

      I think it's rather silly to use this article as the platform for another "Linux will never take off until we make GUIs" rant. The article nicely describes a rather good command line tool. Nobody was suggesting this as an alternative to iMovie or any of the professional DVD editting suites. It's a tool. It has its uses. It has its limitations. Lets leave it at that.

    7. Re:It's nice but... by femto · · Score: 1

      Would it be realistic to modify Glade to build the menus for a DVD? Perhaps the additional user interface element would be as simple as an additional file type as an option in the 'save as' dialog box (save as... DVD menu)?

    8. Re:It's nice but... by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      Salient Green is PURPOSEFUL!!

      /salute

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
  5. Filling the Void by SouLShadow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Finally, an article that outlines, with examples, how to create a dvd under linux. not very in depth, but enough to get you going. sure, there are alot of tools out there for making/burning dvd's under linux. i've been searching the net for months trying to find info on how to create dvd's. in the process i've found many different projects mature enough to use. yet none seemed to provide enough information to actually produce a working dvd. the few that did explain how the program worked failed to provide examples.
    maybe i was looking in the wrong places or for the wrong thing. but to find nothing helpful enough is odd, to say the least. i for one feel this area has been overlooked as far docs, howto's, guides, and tutorials go. i'm no newbie, but i no longer have the time or the money to fool around with it till i get it right.
    of course, if anyone has links to other articles, faq's, tutorial's, howto's, etc.. please let me know!

    1. Re:Filling the Void by budhaboy · · Score: 1

      I've been looking for something like this as well. I did find another article (in linux journal) written in 2001 (perhaps 02), that gave steps to creating a DVD that could be played in player, but nothing even close to what is beind discussed here.

  6. Blame it on grammar school by Smallpond · · Score: 2, Funny

    A DVD "is comprised of" ...

    I wince every time I hear that.

    OK everyone, the parts comprise the whole, the whole is composed of the parts. Got it?

    and while we're at it...

    1. Re:Blame it on grammar school by Ian+Pointer · · Score: 1

      Okay, you got me. No defense. I screwed up, and thanks for pointing it out. I'll remember in future.

      (I didn't make any apostrophe errors, though, did I? Because I'd kick myself if they managed to get through several read-throughs)

    2. Re:Blame it on grammar school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Even though careful writers often maintain this distinction, comprise is increasingly used in place of compose, especially in the passive: "The Union is comprised of 50 states." Our surveys show that opposition to this usage is abating. In the 1960s, 53 percent of the Usage Panel found this usage unacceptable; in 1996, only 35 percent objected.

      I guess the language is changing on you. It happens to all of us.

    3. Re:Blame it on grammar school by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I like to make up words too.

  7. Is this legal? by yerricde · · Score: 1

    I thought MPEG-2 video compression and AC3 audio compression were patented in major portions of Regions 1 and 2.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
    1. Re:Is this legal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In R1, yes.
      In R2, it is not possible to enforce patented math.

      Anyway, patents are not meant to enforce exclusive use. As a private citizen, you can use patented technologies without royalties. Just not sell anything done with it.

    2. Re:Is this legal? by prowley · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Anyway, patents are not meant to enforce exclusive use. As a private citizen, you can use patented technologies without royalties. Just not sell anything done with it.


      Cough. Actually patents grant a temporary MONOPOLY on a technology. That means if you did not get that tech from a sanctioned source, you have no right to it. What you describe is more akin to copyright and fair use (or what is left of it).

      In addition, patents and open source do not mix at all. Indeed patents are a very real threat to open source software because they can effectively bar their distribution/use and/or be used to extract royalites/damages from distributors/(usually) major users.

  8. Glorious! by Zarf · · Score: 1

    This is just the leg-up I was looking for! Thankyou Slashdot! Now off I go to get my hack on. How much you wanna bet that in six months there'll be a half dozen GUI front ends for DVD authoring? Who's going to go try and make one ... show of hands!

    --
    [signature]
    1. Re:Glorious! by budhaboy · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Execution in O( nick ) time.

    2. Re:Glorious! by O · · Score: 1

      Does that have anything to do with my nick?

      --

      1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21 -- Mathematics is the Language of Nature.
    3. Re:Glorious! by budhaboy · · Score: 0

      everything. I thought it was really funny... Tragically, being my first ever response to any slashdot comment, I buggered it up, had to do it again, then blew the paste. I'm so ashamed.

  9. Re:Great News by Znonymous+Coward · · Score: 0

    All you need is $20 worth of crack and you can get anything you want.

    --

    Karma: The shiznight, mostly because I am the Drizzle.

  10. Amanda by rangek · · Score: 1
    Amanda (which doesn't span tapes...???!!!).

    I thought the same thing until I started using Amanda. We were this close (||) to buying a whole Arkeia setup to backup about a dozen workstations to a VXA-1 tape drive when I decided to give Amanda a try, just to see if it could save us ~$1200. I read about the tape spanning thing and said, "Wow, that sucks. This will never work." But then I tried it, and all I have to say is, "Damn, amanda is smart."

    Basically, once you get your full backups done, Amanda dynamically schedules incremental backups to most efficiently use tape and protect your data. With judicious selection rules about what constitutes a "disk" (e.g., a single disk must fit on 1 tape), and a properly tuned set up, the no tape spanning thing is not a problem. We are currently backing up a total of 300GB (180GB compressed) of data from 24 "disks" on 12 workstations onto a set of 20 33GB VXA-1 tapes with the ability to roll back to any state in the last 16 days.

    That said, tape spanning would definitely rock in amanda.

  11. Once again the OS community is way off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    What I'd like to see is a full robust multimedia authoring platform. Macromedia Director is NOT thousands of dollars and is the best product of its type available. What I'd like to see is a something along the lines of that, which could have a export to DVD or CDROM. Or is even able to be deployed as (dare I say it!) a plug-in in a browser. Flash is open source, keep in mind.

    Just as Director has Lingo, which is based largely on Smalltalk, the software should be fully extensible with a robust programming language and or a XML based scripting language. Incorporate a little video. Bam! Flash killer. If we start working now we can even beat Sparkle to market.

  12. No CSS? by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 3, Funny

    Aww, it doesn't say how to add CSS protection.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  13. GUI rant by rodentia · · Score: 0


    Y'know, it is starting to get on my nerves, this endless churning agon regarding graphical interfaces and Linux, or any other software for that matter. I, and frankly many others of my acquaintance, find a text interface both more functional and more intuitive than menus and buttons. C'mon, we've had a thousand years to get comfortable with text-based interfaces. A graph is a graph is a character, eh! I think with words by habit; I remember text and its meaning much more readily that the location of the farking widgit in the Husker Du of menus most GUI programs make available.

    Here is my Dad when I introduced him to his new Ibook w/Aqua GUI: Do I click the word or the picture?

    Here, developers, is a friggin clue: GUI's are no more fun to learn and use than they are to write!!! Unless I am doing something with a picture, pictures are not to the point. Somewhere in the mists of time, some arrogant HCI genius decided that unlike L33t programmers, normal Joe Sixpacks thought with pictures instead of words and its been downhill ever since. When is it ever easier to manually open and fiddle with more than two objects when a script can do it?!? When!?!

    Has it not been amply demonstrated that the mouse is the most anti-ergonomical device in the modern office?!?

    Ahrrrrrrrgh!

    Thank you, and I apologize for the inconvenience.

    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
    1. Re:GUI rant by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That may work for you, but that doesn't mean it works for others. If what you were saying were true, than why did GUIs catch on? If the text/console interface WERE so much more intuitive and easy for most people to use, when GUIs first came out, they would have been a novelty and few people would have used them.

      The fact is when GUIs started coming out, they caught on quickly. Even the text based ones that let you point and click your way through a directory tree (or page through it with arrows and page up/down, etc).

      I taught for a number of years with learning disabled students. That means I had to learn a lot about how people learned -- both when everything is working well and when there are disabilities. I found that there are a myriad of learning styles (and that doesn't apply to just learning, it applies to how we process and work with information). The kind of person who uses text as opposed to images or intuition is also the type of person who is likely to end up as a programmer and (and I'm not just saying this to be mean), they are most likely to see things in one way and not easily adapt to different points of view. It is a black and white way of thinking (ironic, since text based systems are almost black and white -- actually green and white, but you get the idea).

      I know about using words. I am a writer (I said so in my original post). When I write, I worry about the words, and that is the point -- I have to be able to worry about the words I'm writing, not what menu key I have to press for this function. I have to keep my mind on what I am writing, not how I am writing it.

      When I am shooting video, I work with cameras that are easy to use, not ones where I have to keep futzing with controls every few seconds (actually, few video cameras are that contra-intuitive). When I am editing that video, I have to be able to focus on the rythm and flow of the material, how the soundtrack matches the action, what camera angle I am using, etc. I've got too much to worry about, at that point, without having to add to that the worry of HOW does this program work. The same goes for authoring DVDs.

      It may get on your nerves, the "endless churning," but it doesn't seem to have occured to you there is a reason for it. That reason is, quite simply, that most of us work better and faster with a GUI. You may not, but that doesn't mean others don't. What it does seem to mean is that you feel that what works for you works best for everyone and the popularity of GUIs bears out the need for intuitive interfaces. (If consoles were so wonderful for the average user, and were in demand, there would have been a huge demand to make the DOS Prompt easier to access and use on Windows.)

      I can't remember all the details, but a while back there was a story here, on /., about why users and developers don't like each other and it pointed out that studies had shown that users did not like programmers creating interfaces and telling them what they (the user) needed. I know programmers tend to have disdain for users, but, face it, without end users, programmers wouldn't have well paying jobs. If most people found little need for word processors, Word wouldn't be such a popular program.

      Again, I'm not saying this to be mean, but your attitude is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm pointing out is a problem. And your response is a perfect, text book example of why it is a problem. I point out that most people need a GUI to make working with computers easier and that programmers don't like writing GUIs, but they are necessary for users if a program is going to be widely used. The problem is that programmers don't see this and would rather tell everyone that a command line util is as easy to use as a GUI.

      Then, after saying that, you come along and say a command line util is as easy to use as a GUI. Okay, two points: 1) That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it and 2) It may be true for you, but that doesn't mean it is true

    2. Re:GUI rant by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
      I, and frankly many others of my acquaintance, find a text interface both more functional and more intuitive than menus and buttons.

      It amuses me to visit the Uni (of Western Australia) and see stunning young ladies carrying elegantly themed laptops which are leaking trendy tunes into the environment (these represent the core GUI market, one would think) and when you look closer the display is covered in xterms, and some of the crew routinely use screen on those 'coz it's quicker to type ^A-whatever than to find and move the mouse... and of course they all use focus-follows-mouse when they do pay attention to the GUI...

      --
      Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    3. Re:GUI rant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry, replying as a coward.

      If you want functionality and you are a programmer, a CLI will not slow you down and will get you there quickly, plus is scriptable.

      A GUI is nice but is extra work for no extra functionality, in general. Moreover coming up with a good GUI is extremely hard, even Apple gets it wrong sometimes (not to mention Microsoft). A poor GUI is far worse than a good CLI.

      Since you mention training, one-on-one training for GUIs is nice, but fully documenting a GUI is a bloody pain in the neck, this is partly why KDE is not so well documented for example (most programs have very sketchy documentation).

      I will agree with you that a good GUI makes your program better and more accessible to the multitude, but is not uniformly better than a well-designed CLI.

      Cheers

  14. Re:Hm..i think this is a lethal step for linux by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    Open source is not about giving things away for free that otherwise would cost a lot of money. That's a recipe for a dead business and a lot of unemployed programmers. Open source is about empowering the user, empowering the third party developers, and leveraging the collaborative efforts of millions of programmers to achieve a common goal.

    It feels disorienting to agree with nathanh, but nevertheless... "Hear, hear!" (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  15. Re:Hm..i think this is a lethal step for linux by nathanh · · Score: 1
    It feels disorienting to agree with nathanh, but nevertheless... "Hear, hear!" (-:

    Take it outside, god boy.

  16. Nor does it mention... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...ripping existing DVDs, nuking the region coding, and writing them back. Anyone got any favourite words on that topic?

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  17. Your point? by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    /ME waves from Region 4.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:Your point? by darkewolf · · Score: 1

      Yay for region four!

      *meh, its the end of the day, pointless comments are acceptable*

      --
      "That is not dead which can eternal lie...."
      Nimheil
  18. Shouldn't the writer concentrate on writing? by spotteddog · · Score: 1

    OK, so what a writer really needs is a generic text editor - formatting the output should not be part of the writing process (unless you are doing an ASCII art type thing). The writer should be worried about paragraph breaks, chapter breaks, etc.

    A text editor is a text editor. If you are authoring long works, you want a document processing system - things like LaTEX - things that separate formatting and output from the creative input.

    You claim you needed OO with a GUI and support for macros to change margins. What you really needed OO for was a tool that allows you to procrastinate while looking like you are doing something.

    The writer should write, the editor should edit, and someone in the publishing side should handle the layout. (Yes, I understand that all these functions may be one person, but the idea is valid and the tasks should be separate.)

    --
    . there used to be a sig here.....
    1. Re:Shouldn't the writer concentrate on writing? by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 1

      You claim you needed OO with a GUI and support for macros to change margins. What you really needed OO for was a tool that allows you to procrastinate while looking like you are doing something.

      Are you a writer? Would you tell me what you do so I can tell you how to do your job. (Or you are probably an editor -- like the one Robert Heinlein describes working with when he was writing his juvies who felt she wasn't doing a good job unless she was always getting in his way -- Read "Grumblings From the Grave" if you want to know what I'm talking about.)

      Have you ever seen the format for a screenplay? Whenever a character speaks, their speech is at one margin. If there are stage directions (short ones) while speaking, those are at another margin and descriptions and actions are at another margin. When a character speaks, their name is written, centered and in caps on the page (or put at yet a 4th margin). If you are writing dialog, you can switch between characters every line, which means typing a characters name, then what they say, then a blank line, then the next character's name, what they say, a blank line, and so on. That means having to center almost every other line. If you include actions during the dialog, each time you switch from typing dialog to actions, it is another margin change. I have script pages where I change margins 20 times in a page.

      New writers often say they don't like dealing with formatting scripts and try to write a script without margin changes. This gets them into trouble for a number of reasons. For one, a script page is formatted the way it is for several reasons: 1) A script page takes roughly a minute to shoot, so a script for a TV show is roughly 60 pages. 2) It is easy to read and to get an idea, from looking at it, how much is dialog and how much is visual. 3) With the formatting used, it is easy to pick up the cues for different people who do different kinds of work throughout production.

      Writing a script without formatting as you write becomes a nightmare. First, it completely distorts the length so a writer has no clear idea how long (in minutes) a scene is, second, it makes difficult to format later, and third, it can make it hard to deal with re-writing as well as formatting later. Scripts should always be written in proper format from the start. If you want to argue this and say an editor should do the layout, or it should be handled separate, I have a few comments: 1) I've cited this earlier in this thread, EVERYONE has a different learning style and way of working. I've been involved in discussions and found some writers work best with a plain text editor. Many creative writers like to see how something looks on a page while they write (I've heard some say they could never write on a computer until GUIs came out with word processors that allowed one to write with black characters on a white background -- the green screens didn't look enough like a typewriter or actual paper for them). 2) There are MANY types of writing that are very difficult to write first and format later (poetry, screenplays, writing or creating brochures, etc.). 3) For many writers, the task of writing and editing is combined, it's the way many of us work and always have and always will.

      When I'm writing prose, simple formatting (like chapter headings or breaks between sections) helps me. The visual cues help me keep track of where I am and give me a sense of pacing. I don't use complex formatting, but what little I use helps me. And, with OOo styles, I can simply apply a particular style and, if I need to, change that one style and it updates all the sections with that style applied to it. When I'm writing copy for brochures or other promotional pieces for my company, it is a LOT easier to write the copy directly in the brochure so I can see how the text looks. Formatting can be a big part of what I'm doing. I don't want words split with hyphens at the end of a line and I don't want a long word to force a short line because that will t

  19. Thanks by rodentia · · Score: 1

    My Dear Hermit,

    I had intended merely a throw-away rant. I appreciate your detailed response and feel you deserve a more considered explanation of my views. That your reply has been moderated indicates someone besides us is enjoying this thread so I will take a moment to expand on my remarks and your rejoinder.

    I should like to correct your prejudice as to my professional situation. I am a writer by training, a poet, and a film-maker by avocation. It is true that I am making my mortgage doing XML/XSLT plumbing with Java, but I have no formal training in computer science.

    I should also point out that my rant overstated my position somewhat. I don't believe that GUIs should be outlawed. I contend that most GUIs are cluttered, mal-organized and require more training to use effectively than a comparable CLI tool would. I feel that the proper balance between graphical and textual tools in HCI has not yet been struck. I contend that the current Linux toolset is closer to a proper, natural balance of these assets in addressing general purpose computing than either Mac or MS at this time. I take the recent introduction of a CLI for Apple machines and the announced return of CLI tools for Windows to corroborate my view. Your mention of *text-based* GUI tools is quite apropos here. The expanding directory tree is one of the few really successful graphical representations we've managed.

    I take a more nuanced view of the computer as a tool and its relationship to the user. Central to my thinking is an impression that the popularity of graphical interfaces is not a result of their intuitive ease, but consequent to a particular historical moment in the development of our relationship to the machine. Users did not charge from DOS to Windows. The market dramatically expanded at that moment as people who formerly resisted the notion that computers were useful to secretaries, truckers, actuaries and writers were suddenly convinced that computers might be not only useful, but something crucial and not to be missed. We have a generation now who have conformed their working styles to the demands the machines made of them at that moment and now do find them *intuitive*.

    That is, to say that GUIs are good because they are popular is like saying Microsoft is good because its popular. You yourself call MS Office *crap*. In reality, either are popular because there is no practical alternative. And these two developments are closely related and a direct result of this flood of naieve users coincident with the release of Win95 and the development of the internet. The internal dialogue goes something like this: I don't know computers and don't want to know. I want something easy to use and I need to be able to open the Lotus and Word files people send me. Whether a mouse and graphical menus were, in point of fact, easy to use, did not enter into it. Users had no context within which to make an informed decision.

    As to *most people* requiring a GUI to work with computers easily, I believe that remains an open question. I have myself overseen the transition of a 100 person compositing department from CLI tools to Quark at a halving of productivity. The rationale for this disastrous move was the *ease* of training new personnel. The ease of training existing personnel to the GUI interface was not considered. In fact they have been efficiently bringing more people on quickly, which is a good thing considering that the department nearly doubled in size without additional business to offset the expense. I left the company over the disaster.

    You mention cameras and the example is fortuitous for several reasons. They clearly point the way forward for the penetration of computers in daily life. The embedded processor in your camera has, as its interface, the device itself. Its functions are so closely aligned to the use of the machine that traditional HCI concerns are moot. I think that this type of computing interface will be by far the most common going forward.

    --
    illegitimii non ingravare
    1. Re:Thanks by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 1

      Wow-- that was a very well thought out response!

      One note on the side -- as for using generalities for my comments on learning styles, that was intentional. I had to learn a lot about this in depth when I was teaching. I burned out after a long time teaching in tough situations. While I still have all my reference materials, I have gotten to the point where I don't like to dig too deeply in that area unless I specifically need it for my writing. While I remember concepts well, I don't remember words and terms well (actually a speech path once told me that she thought I had a speech impediment because I was often unable to remember words -- almost always nouns or popoer nouns -- that were part of regular speech -- also meaning I am, in some ways, an exception to your point about language. Even though I write, word finding can be a real problem for me at times and has forced me to think in, for lack of a better word, images and/or metaphors). (And, to be honest, I may tend to deride the "programmer type" because I tend to get rather frustrated when I have to function in that role for a long time and have to keep focused on logic more than on my writing.)

      I'm working in Java, too, but as little as possible. I prefere Perl and I'm one of the lucky ones that can quite often pick what language I want to work with. I've found it interesting to look at the effect programming has had on my writing. I went through a period where I experimented in seeing if I could write stories like programs by doing things like trying to keep each chapter self contained. While it was possible, I found it removed a lot of nuances and that had an overall negative impact. It's interesting to see the effect writing programs can have on writing prose or poetry.

      I agree that we will be seeing a move away from generalized computing to embeded functions, but (and you pointed this out) generalized computing won't disappear. As long as we have input and output interfaces (whether they are monitors, mouses and keyboards or holograms and voice), it will be cheaper, in many cases, to do work on a general platform than a specific one. It's like Asimov's argument for making humanoid robots: specialized robots can do one task, but most machinery is fitted for humans any, so it is more economical, in the long run, to make humanoid robots that can use the equipment humans are already using. Instead of a dozen different robots, a human can use one to clean the house, make meals, drive a car, and do yard work. I do think generalized computing will always be around. I, personally, like not having to use different systems for writing and video editing -- largely due to space, although there are times where I wish I could use a dedicated editing system.

      I see what you are saying about poorly designed GUIs. Perhaps the Linux GUIs feel like they are a better design because they weren't rushed. Since they're usually OSS, they are done with function and use as a goal, rather than a deadline and production quota as a goal. One example of a Windows based GUI that I think needs improvement is Adobe Premiere (I bring this up because I'm guessing that you have probably, as a filmmaker, used this). While I like the timeline layout and a few other things, there are parts of the interface that are very frustrating.

      Out of curiosity, both in the context of discussing UIs and in the context of filmmaking, do you use any editing software, and what have you found are the good and frustrating parts of editing software?

      One point about GUIs vs. console: There is a strong advantage to GUIs which is not (usuall) available in consoles. In a GUI, the user doesn't have to stop and think, "What command does this?" For example, I've been stuck at a DOS prompt for a few seconds trying to remember if I need to type 'ls' or 'dir' to get a listing. In a GUI, the widgets are visible to act as a menu or reminder. Menus are also available, and usually logically arranged. For example, when I switched over to KMail it wasn't har

    2. Re:Thanks by krbvroc1 · · Score: 1

      I read through this entire thread empathizing with the need to provide GUI interfaces for people who learn in different ways and to provide a tool that is easy to use in the 'problem domain'. ...but then after reading all about not using a tool that gets in the way of the problem at hand, you drop the bomb... "I'm working in Java, too, but as little as possible. I prefere Perl ". Talk about tool that is hard to use. Whenever anything needs to be done in perl, one has to take a trip to the reference books and re-read the man pages. By the time I refresh the nuances of perl (and perhaps download 43 packages from CPAN that the one module needs to use) I've forgotten what I was trying to accomplish in the first place.

    3. Re:Thanks by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 1

      I guess that shows how different people work and learn differently. I had not programmed in over a decade and picked up a book on Perl and felt quite comfortable with it in a day or two. It took me a few weeks to learn Java and longer to feel comfortable with it. Perl is much closer to natural language for me and, from my point of view, very intuitive and easy. I can do a task in Perl in a day that might take me anywhere from 3-5 days in Java. I have problems with Java that are similar to the problems you have with Perl.

    4. Re:Thanks by Wolfrider · · Score: 1

      --Seriously, perhaps you two should band together and take on some open-source projects that involve both perl and java. You would complement each other's weak areas.

      --
      .
      == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
    5. Re:Thanks by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 1

      Honestly, as soon as I finish up with what I'm doing, I'm going to be going straight into video production and soon after that, into writing. For years I've had to give up my gym time (I used to spend 10% of my time working out), my social life, and almsot everything to spend the time programming and getting a company running. Once this stage is done, I am eagerly looking forward to NOT programming. Any further upgrades and additions will be done by my staff, who will be working on open source projects as well as company work.

      I need to get a life and get back to my real love: writing. It'll be a long time before I can look at a program editor instead of a word processor and not feel exhausted.

  20. Great ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now, not only will I have to suffer my friends and families holiday videos, but there'll also be the 'behind the scenes' footage, deleted scenes, and the dreaded 'Directors commentry'.

  21. I did. (-: by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    Take it outside, god boy.

    Posted from my lappie, sitting under a nice shady tree... is that good enough?

    Summer over here now. 26degC in the kitchen at 08:56 and rising. I love a sunburnt country. (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
    1. Re:I did. (-: by nathanh · · Score: 1
      Summer over here now. 26degC in the kitchen at 08:56 and rising. I love a sunburnt country. (-:

      Summer over here, too. Hint: Canberra.

  22. Meh, it's SlashDot... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...pointless comments are acceptable. (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  23. Good point! by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    See you in a couple of weekends, I'll be over there for 7th & 8th Dec. I can bring samples of new limestone formed in the last few decades, if you like. (-:

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  24. Jeepers by Booyakka+Joe · · Score: 1

    What a beautiful thread that was Grandpa.
    Is that what the internet used to be like?

    Sure was son, but now the internet is full of short, poorly composed, shiney thing, ADHD friendly crap. Just like this POST we are part of right here son.

    --
    This is where I keep my clever quotes "" Yup I only got a pair, so I better not waste em!
  25. I work with cameras that are easy to use by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Though not a videographer or even a professional photographer, I do love photography and am thinking of going into photojournalism, and just as those professional photographers I did know, I prefer to use manual controls rather than have it all automated. Not that I don't use the autmated settings, because I do use them, but for the most part using manual controls allows the most flexibility and creativity even if they aren't the fastest.

    You taught learning disabled students? Though to my knowledge none of mine had LDs, I used to tutor and between myself and tutoring others know how different people prefer to learn in different ways. Previously my own prefered style was to do it as much as I could on my own. I'd first experiment or "play around", when I came to a point where I was stuck and couldn't figure it out on my own I'd rtfm and as a last resort I'd ask for help. But now I suffer from a TBI, Traumatic Brain Injury, and need someone there almost from the beginning. This really gets to me, because though I love to help others I hate needing or having to ask for help.