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America's Army 2.0 Available for Linux and OS X

Time Doctor writes "Linux and Mac gamers will be happy to hear that America's Army 2.0 is out of private beta, and available via mirrors at 3DGamers and HappyPuppy, among others. See this news post on the AA site for the gameplay changes." We covered the release of the Windows version of AA 2.0 a couple of weeks back, as this free FPS recruiting tool continues toward its goal of "providing civilians with an inside perspective and a virtual role in today's premiere land force, the U.S. Army."

112 comments

  1. whats with by hookedup · · Score: 0

    all the articles so close togeather?

  2. Yes! by WavyGravy-R5 · · Score: 1

    Finally, the US government has made a recruitting tool for all of the Linux gurus too! :)

    1. Re:YES! by lincarnate · · Score: 1

      Whoa! That's all you have? Here, let me email you Super Breakout!

      --
      All generalizations are inaccurate...except that one about gen....fsck it.
    2. Re:YES! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here, let me email you Super Breakout!

      I really like "that puzzle game. That's a great game. Sure, I beat it, but it's still fun."

  3. All I can say is... by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 1, Interesting
    ...it's about damned time!

    Frankly I'm a bit surprised that an entity of the U.S. Government would have published a game on a non-Microsoft platform, but kudos to the Army for it!

    Now I'll just have to see if it will run on my laptop...

    --
    Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
    1. Re:All I can say is... by daviddennis · · Score: 1

      The army's been starting to switch some things to Linux, so it's not that much of a surprise for me.

      It's too early in the morning for me to find the relevent articles, though :-(.

      D

    2. Re:All I can say is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The army's been starting to switch some things to Linux.

      In other news: SCO sues US army, Utah wiped off map.

  4. Mac classic by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 3, Informative


    fwiw, I had trouble getting the download link to work with either IE or Safari in OS X--the link would not present the contextual menu to me that gives the option of "saving to disk", required on this particular download.

    However, I found that using the "download manager" in Mac Classic IE worked--I had to chose a previous download, and then change the pointers to the game download info.

    --

    --
    $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    1. Re:Mac classic by bsharitt · · Score: 1

      Wow, this would be great if my poor little G3 imac was powerful enough.

  5. DevKit by Samus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is there any kind of devkit or plans for a devkit? One of the things that adds life to a game are the user created levels. I know I wouldn't be playing Ravenshield these days if all I had access to were the stock maps. This extends to other games as well. If this thing is to have a decent life expectancy then there needs to be some kind of dev kit for user mods.

    --
    In Republican America phones tap you.
    1. Re:DevKit by Slider451 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I suspect any mods that disparage the image of the U.S. military would be frowned upon. And since most modders would object to going through an official approval process for their creative works, I'm not surprised if mod options don't get very far.

      --
      Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
    2. Re:DevKit by chrismcdirty · · Score: 2, Informative

      The original thought was that the Army did not want user-created levels/weapons/characters to be associated with the Army's game. They were afraid people would create inappropriate scenarios like school terrorism and the such which the Army does not deal with.

      That was the original idea, though. And back a while ago they also said we'd never get pistols in game, but we have them now. So you never really know.

      And I believe they said they won't release a Devkit during the life of the game. So maybe they'll release one once the team stops working on it, thus extending the life cycle of it.

      --
      It's like sex, except I'm having it!
    3. Re:DevKit by MMaestro · · Score: 1
      I'm finding it hard to imagine what modders would try to make out of the game as it is.

      Best case scenario : A modder creates some kind of paratrooping features/maps/missions thats so badass that the U.S. government reinstates the draft just to hire him.

      Worst case scenario : Some jackass retard fanatic makes a mod using the U.S. Army models and skins along side maps/missions where the objective is to kill the President/blow up a school/kill unarmed children, with the opposing side appearing to be civilians who are simply defending themselves.

      As much as I hate to say it, the fact that there are mods and skins/models where you can kill President Bush is pretty morbid without the fact that those same players go around spewing crap outta their mouth online.

    4. Re:DevKit by starfish23 · · Score: 1

      > Remember: The old adage "fight fire with fire" does not apply to non-metaphorical fires.

      Yes, it does. Fires can be put out with explosions.

      Dom

    5. Re:DevKit by shivianzealot · · Score: 1

      Is there any kind of devkit or plans for a devkit? One of the things that adds life to a game are the user created levels. I know I wouldn't be playing Ravenshield these days if all I had access to were the stock maps. This extends to other games as well. If this thing is to have a decent life expectancy then there needs to be some kind of dev kit for user mods.

      Their FAQ says they have no plans to release such tools, which I find rather disapointing. Maybe it has to do with their UT Warfare license? Who knows? They go on to explain that they intend to continue to create new content for the game for a few more years. Unfortunatly, I don't have the URL handy, and the website requires flash, which I have no desire to enable, atm.

      --

      Bored with karma, be a fan/freak

    6. Re:DevKit by gangien · · Score: 1

      I doubt you'll see dev kits. For one, they are not worried about adding life beyond what they want. Two, It would mean maps that aren't representive of real life possibilities could be distributied, which goes against the basic goal of the game. and 3, it's the US Army, they like to keep things under their control :). And in my opinion, the maps they make are damned good anyway.

  6. Freedom ISN'T Free! by JZ_Tonka · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Glad to see the parent's tripe modded down proper.

    If you think our freedom is something that was just given to us, then you are both naive and ungrateful.

    Have a chat with your grandfather about how much freedom costs; I'd be willing to bet he is very well aware of the price our soldiers pay to keep people like you safe and stupid..

    1. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I, of course, do not expect a reply

      Here's a reply for ya: Fuck you. Enjoy your Karma loss! :)

    2. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Lemental · · Score: 0

      More liberal tripe from the left. Spewing forth the hatred for the current administration because they cant handle the truth.

      Do me a favor, get off your moral high horse and start backing up your facts, I dont need your opinions. You are probably canadian.

    3. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're making a lot of assumptions about the poster you replied to. All he did was present the fact that our freedom was purchased with the blood of our anscestors. You couldn't argue with that so you attacked him instead, putting words in his mouth he never said.

      Ad hominem is a weak debating tool and reflects poorly on both your debating skills and the merit of your arguments.

    4. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omlette. Oh well, sometimes people just don't get it.

    5. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by deus_X_machina · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      You know, as military personal, I can honestly say, you people do a lot of talk, but I don't see a lot of action.

      Where were you when Iraq invaded Kuwait? Or when the Kosovars were getting massacred by Bosnians? When Hilter invaded? What were you doing while Somalians were starving? Or when the Taliban had Afghanistan under it's terroristic grip? When two planes crashed in the World Trade Center, what were you doing?

      I hear a lot of talk from a lot of people. But never any action.

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
    6. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      I didn't ask where the United Nations was, I asked where were you. Where were you specifically? Probably sitting at home watching the events unfold, playing no part.

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
    7. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 1
      It clues me in to the fact that an organization made up mostly of dictatorships (60% of UN nations are non-democratic) has been predictably unwilling to deal appropriately with one of their own.

      How many more UN resoultions were you willing to allow Hussein to defy? 12 wasn't enough?

      --
      Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
    8. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hitler? The US did nothing until 41 apart from sell stuff to the Brits. Then they joined in because the Japs attacked Pearl Harbor. By that time, the Germans had lost the Battle of Britain and were freezing to death outside Stalingrad.

    9. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why exactly would I choose to fight in a war I don't believe in? Wouldn't that be Vietnam all over again?

      Oh, did we forget that little fiasco? Where were the soldiers THEN? Off slaughtering villagers at My Lai, or maybe dropping some napalm and Agent Orange on the rest of the country. And don't start in about how the VC did worse things, because we matched them in war crimes step for bloody step.

      Yes, I'm not in the military. Nor would I want to be, seeing some of the absolutely despicable actions on both sides.

    10. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Action? What the hell are you talking about? The war in Iraq was about one thing at the beginning. WMD. Afterwards, when Bush and his puppy couldn't get the support of the UN (a MAJOR defeat if you have the eyes to see it), it turned into a crusade for democracy! Oh no, how could I not see it! And where the hell are the WMD that presented such an iminent threat to US's and international security?

      But, you know, your question is correct. What are we doing? I see your president as a new Hitler (his grandfather was, after all, a great supporter of Hitler). People, at the time, did not say anything when he annexed Austria. Not when he entered the de-militarised zone in the East. They only took notice when he entered Poland. Well, what I am doing my dear friend is making people realise that Iraq was the same as Poland but NOBODY GAVE A FUCK this time. But the tide is turning, and your president WILL face the question come election day 2004.

      Also, funnily enough, you mention the Taliban. You are obviously ignorant to the fact that YOUR GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY financed the Taliban and provided diplomatic cover for them.

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    11. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

      -Edmund Burke

      Either way, regardless of your views, you've done nothing but complain... your apathy to both sides amuses me. "I think both sides are wrong, so instead of doing something about it either way, I'll just be cynical". You may disagree with my standpoint, but like it or not, at least I've done something proactive about it.

      As for Vietnam, all cadets and junior officers study it extensively so that the mistakes are never again repeated. You, on the other hand, never having seen war, never having one of your buddies shot, never having to speculate if that is a civilian or a soldier dressed as a civilian, have no idea what soldiers in Vietnam were dealing with, and have no viable leg to stand on arguing their actions. Lack of action, lack of insight, you appear to have both.

      Go post in your news groups, wear anti-war pins, listen to punk rock, be anti-military, protest, and post your rants on your website. I don't care. Just know this:

      "It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."

      -Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, Sergeant, USMC

      All of the freedoms you enjoy were paid for in blood by soldiers.

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
    12. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about 53 more, with no end in sight?

    13. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      The war in Iraq was about one thing at the beginning. WMD. Afterwards, when Bush and his puppy couldn't get the support of the UN

      Yes, it was about WOMDs. Though they haven't been found yet, would you rather Saddam Hussein stay in power? Regardless what the war was about, getting him out of power was beneficial for the entire global community, including Iraq. The time for talk and half measures was over, Hussein had clearly violated UN resolutions.

      I see your president as a new Hitler

      Oh really? And the United States as Nazi Germany? You forget that we give more to the global community, rebuild more countries, and let more immigrants take advantage of our wealth than any other country. I doubt your government is so generous (both Greek and Portugese). It seems no matter how much the United States does, it's never enough to satisfy everyone.

      what I am doing my dear friend is making people realise that Iraq was the same as Poland but NOBODY GAVE A FUCK this time

      So Poland was run by one of the most bloodthirsty dictators ever to live, invaded Kuwait, and promoted violence against foreigners? Poland dumped oil into the ocean? Are you kidding me? Iraq was not an innocent nation, nor was Hussein an innocent man. If you really promote human rights, why would you want that man in power and continue to let him continue to commit attrocities against his own people?

      But the tide is turning, and your president WILL face the question come election day 2004.

      The Iraqi government didn't have this option until now. Instead, they were stuck under a brutal madman until he died or was killed. Now they'll get to choose their leadership as well. Democracy is a beautiful thing.

      YOUR GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY financed the Taliban and provided diplomatic cover for them.

      We've made mistakes, but they've been rectified through the blood, sweat, and tears of our soldiers. Not protestors, not poets, not artists, not bloggers... soldiers.

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
    14. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Soulfader · · Score: 1

      Hooah. Spec. Steele 341st MI Bttn

    15. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by bugbread · · Score: 1

      1) Probably in school...or asleep (time differences, you know)
      2) A glimmer in grandpa's eye.
      3) Playing a video game, probably
      4) Worrying that the US was supporting such an extremist group.
      5) Watching TV with my girlfriend.

    16. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by bugbread · · Score: 1

      When the goal is noble (Revolutionary War, World War II), I fully support what our troops are doing for us.

      However, we supported the Taliban because it was politically advantageous to us, only to suffer the repercussions of it. Now we've taken out Hussein for financial reasons...It's only a matter of time before we suffer the repercussions of that.

      People joining the army know that it could mean their death. What I wish they would remember is that by killing themselves in order to get politicians' friends richer or to get people re-elected, they're just bringing about retribution that, unfortunately, falls on people going to work in New York or going to a club in Bali. You may have taken a job that involves you getting killed, but us civilians would rather that not happen to us, especially for some oil baron to buy a bigger house.

    17. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, Bush went into Iraq to get the oil, sure there were other ideals such as free the Iraqis, but you'd be blind not to see that Bush also wants to the oil, too bad though, it's locked up under ground.

    18. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freedom isn't free is a truism. It's bloody obvious.

      It is also regularly used as a tactic to shut down debate: "You don't agree with me? Well freedom isn't free, fucker!. Meaning - any disagreement with my course of action is naive, as the disaster I am planning to create is necessary to sustain freedom.

      Currently this is a bunch of crap. Iraq was not a threat to the USA. The president and his staff lied massively and engaged in a criminal war (for which they SHOULD stand trial if there were any justice).

      Freedom isn't free indeed. The world at large is waking up to this slogan and wondering what the cost will be to be free of Uncle Sam's boot on our collective neck.

    19. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Dot.Com.CEO · · Score: 1
      Re: WMDs. The argument was that WMDs were available for launch in 20 minutes. The fact that there is no TRACE of them in the six months after Americans entered Iraqi soil makes me truly question the veracity of the claim. I also find your "global community" approach which, let it be noted, was only served to us when the WMD one failed, laughable. When, may I ask, will the US restore democracy to Saudi Arabia and UAE? They both have bloodthirsty authoritarian regimes but since they serve American interests. Spot the hipocricy.

      Re: Bush as Hitler. There are great parallels. Hitler was clearly an insane man, whereas Bush is just a mediocre liar. However, they both used propaganda and elimination of dissent to push their agenda. Bush IS like Hitler in that he has managed to crush all discussion regarding the invasion because "the country has to be united". Not to start speaking of Guantanamo, a concentration camp. One that contravenes not only international law but, unfortunately, all the ideals you Americans cherish. I would also advise you to find and read the proposed "Patriot act II" and see how close your country came to authoritarianism.

      Re: Poland. I believe you have missed the comparison.

      Re: Taliban. You are not the first empire to believe they hold the moral right to enforce "the true path". Instead of learning from your mistakes, you hide them, you put them aside as a footnote in the great good you do to the world. Believe me, being Greek I know of how empires fall. We had three great empires that spanned the whole world. The Athenians, the Macedonians (Alexander) and Byzantium. They all fell because the leaders believed the held the moral right to be tyrants for the good of the world. They were wrong, the world never needed tyrants. For the good of the Western civilisation I truly hope that the US will get the leadership that a nation so great, powerful and proud, deserves.

      You've made mistakes, yes, but no amount of blood can rectify them. I have enormous respect for your military might but make no mistake, the death of a soldier or a civilian makes no cause "right". And the fact I'm a "blogger" and not a soldier does not make my opinions less correct.

      You cannot dismiss the public opinion of all countries in the world but the 5 who went with your opinions as "wrong" because "American soldiers died". They shouldn't have gone there.

      --
      Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
    20. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wtf woudl bush want cheap oil? doesn this fam hav eoil down in tx? seems like he woudl want espensive oil....put the crack pipe down ya liberal -lol

    21. Re:Freedom ISN'T Free! by qtp · · Score: 1

      First of all, learn how to spell personel if you are going to present yourself as a member of the military, please try not to embarrass all of your fellow enlisted and the veterans who might be reading by coming of as a self agrandizing and egotistical idiot. You do those you associate yourself with a disservice.

      Second of all, if you are going to present yourself as a member of the military, please don't automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint is unpatriotic. A lot of us who think that your viewpoint is reprehensible and your presentation of that viewpoint is genuinely disengenuous (where were you during all of the events that you mentionded.) are veterans and active duty personel. Most of us have taken the time and effort to understand the historical background of the events that you mention.

      I hear a lot of talk from a lot of people. But never any action.

      You hear a lot of talk because this is merely a news site with a discussion group. You have no way of knowing what action any of the posters might be involved in. You have little chance of learning who any of us are (OTOH, we might actually be sitting near you when you drink your coffee. We might actually know who you are. One of us might even be your therapist) and there is little you can do about that.

      If you would like to actually understand a little about these topics you so often demonstrate your ignorance of, please take some time to poke around some primary source documents. The rest of us at least attempt to do our homework before coming to the argument, perhaps you could show a little respect and do the same.

      --
      Read, L
  7. Was the source released? by MarvinMouse · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Will the source be released? If so, this could be fun to play with to create great games for Linux. Games like Postal 3 (for linux!), Grand Theft Auto 4 (for linux!), you know those great anti-establishment games that we all love to play. :-)

    --
    ~ kjrose
    1. Re:Was the source released? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      No, the source will not be released. This is a Unreal 2Kx engine license, running pretty much off Epic's latest source with each new release.

  8. America's Army by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how much of today's Army is "grunt work" versus "tech work". Ground combat is what ultimately the fight is about, but doesn't the overall success of the U.S. Army come from its use of technology and (more importantly) excellent logistics?

  9. Un-American .? by HansF · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So linux is no longer un-american eh?
    Finally, I can have a go at it ;-)
    Maybe the army has to recruit some more IT-personnel...

    --
    --> Insert Funny Sig Here
  10. YES! by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now I have a game more stimulating that Photoshop and dreamweaver to play on my Mac!

  11. God bless America! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    God bless America for brainwashing lots of kids and young teens to join the army with a game that glorifies the army and violence. Let those young kids have fun in co-ed showers and bend down to "get the soap" and then get sent to Iraq and get killed...

    God bless America and technology...

    1. Re:God bless America! by Dr+Reducto · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      We train our kids to patriotic and believe in the "right" god, compared to other nations teaching their children to be terrorists and be in wierd cults. It's all a matter of point of view. We in America think we're right. You think you're right. Calling names isn't going to solve anything.

    2. Re:God bless America! by bobsalt · · Score: 1

      wow! lighten up! kids been playing stick fighting for millions of years...part of our wiring...

  12. Ignorant Yankee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    More liberal tripe from the left. Spewing forth the hatred for the current administration because they cant handle the truth. Do me a favor, get off your moral high horse and start backing up your facts, I dont need your opinions. You are probably canadian.
    How wonderful! Another fucked up ignorant Yankee insulting Canada - even though Canada helped your American asses out in World War II bigtime.
    1. Re:Ignorant Yankee by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Canada has apologized for Bryan Adams on mumerous ocasions. ..Obligatory South Park qoute..

    2. Re:Ignorant Yankee by Lemental · · Score: 0

      Great, what have you done for us lately? Besides criticise everything we do.

  13. Now for Linux by xQuarkDS9x · · Score: 2, Funny

    Interesting now that they released a version for Linux. Now the USA can recruit an army of Linux users along with a massive army of Linux Penguins to go in and clean them out. ;)

    --
    You must master your joystick like a fisherman masters bait! - Gimpy
    1. Re:Now for Linux by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      Now the USA can recruit an army of Linux users along with a massive army of Linux Penguins to go in and clean them out.

      Isn't that the wrong way round? The US army would need the Linux users to muck out the attack penguins, not vice versa.

  14. the game is about fighting by theMerovingian · · Score: 4, Funny


    The army's been starting to switch some things to Linux

    I don't want combat troops that know Linux - their muscles are probably too atrophied to carry an M16.

    (runs for cover)

    --
    "If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
  15. Cool! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Since the Army is making a Mac version, I assume this implies a quick end to the systematic discrimination against gays?

    ~~~

  16. DDR by tepples · · Score: 1

    Not all Linux users' muscles have atrophied. Pydance and StepMania are physical exercise games that both run in Linux.

  17. Godwin's Law Hereby Invoked! by TrollBridge · · Score: 1

    Thread over; parent loses!

    --
    There's a Mercedes gap too. I want one and can't afford one, but it's not government's job to do anything about it.
  18. Hell with 'em by WTFmonkey · · Score: 1

    Thank you for your service. We appreciate it.

  19. Logical fallacies, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    You attack Americans as nationalistic, yet cite "Rumsfeld et al" as an authoritative source. You can't even distill out your own inconstistencies, let alone that of the news you've read.

    Fact: nationalism has only been around for about a hundred and fifty years. France was first, when Napoleon invaded Egypt (great start, huh?). I suggest the writings of Renan and Gellner for a history of nationalism and its pros and cons.

    Basically, nationalism caught on very quickly, and has a foothold on world psyche to the point that people can't even fathom a person without a nation. We don't know if it'll work yet. We don't know if it's a Good Thing yet (look what it's done to the Jews (among others)).

    The reason I'm wasting my time typing this is to point out that you've fallen for the exact same "nationalistic drivel" that your accusees have-- yours is just pointed in another direction. The "facts," as you call them, can only be known by eyewitnesses, and even those are biased. We won't "know" what happened for twenty or thirty years, minimum, just because it'll take the scholars that long to filter out facts from "facts." So please don't spout off your "facts" until you've personally interviewed the majority of Iraqis and asked their opinions. Please don't say "fact" unless you were there when the switch was thrown on the news station, and unless you personally verified the veracity of the NEWS. Otherwise you're pushing propaganda, the same as all of us will be until the truth has time to float to the top.

    1. Re:Logical fallacies, anyone? by Random832 · · Score: 1

      You attack Americans as nationalistic, yet cite "Rumsfeld et al" as an authoritative source. You can't even distill out your own inconstistencies, let alone that of the news you've read.

      you're missing the point: "If even (insert name of someone who has a very strong interest in believing the opposite) admits this is true, it MUST be true". he doesn't believe Rumsfeld/etc generally, but he's saying that it must be true if they can't help but step away from their normal propaganda line to say it

      --
      We've secretly replaced Slashdot with new Folgers Crystals - let's see if it notices.
  20. fucking moron by dh003i · · Score: 3, Insightful

    FYI, you stupid shit, the US hasn't fought a defensive war -- a war to defend our freedom -- since the Revolutionary War. Every other war we have either initiated or joined in in a hostile basis. All of those soldiers fought and died for the alterior motives of various Presidents, politicians, and special interest groups -- not to preserve our freedom, despite what you may have been brainwashed into thinking.

    Of course Freedom isn't free. Ideally, in an anarcho-capitalistic world, it takes money to pay law-enforcement agencies to protect us from random criminal acts. However, you cannot preserve Freedom or increase Freedom by murdering thousands of individuals (which is all that war is).

    1. Re:fucking moron by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Well, hold on now, we fought World War II offensively, but I'd count it as a defensive war. We may have crunched Japan with an oil and steel embargo, but they used military force first.

    2. Re:fucking moron by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      FYI, you stupid shit, the US hasn't fought a defensive war -- a war to defend our freedom -- since the Revolutionary War.

      WWII?

      Did you know that the Japanese printed money that they were going to use as the official currency of the US after they took it over?

      Where the fuck do you think that the axis powers would have turned their attention after conquering Europe, Asia and Africa?

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  21. military personal by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The actions of the military consist of the murder of men, women, and children. You can say it was "collateral damage" or "during war", but that doesn't change the fact that murder is murder.

    Hitler, WWII: Caused by the short-sighted and ignorant actions of the victors of WWI. WWII was made inevitable by the politicians who set up the treaty after WWI.

    WWI: WWI would have been forced to resolve peacefully, as it was at a standstill, had not the US intervened. Btw, the British weren't "good guys". They formed an illegal blockade around Germany, and were starving millions of civilians. Meanwhile, the US was sending weapons to them on the Lucitania, the sinking of which (for that reason) we later used to justify our entry into the war.

    Somalians starving: I don't see how the plight of starving people can be solved by murder. In fact, pretty much all starvation and other miseries of the world are caused by The State.

    Taliban, Afghanistan, WTC, and terrorists: The US is only a target of terrorism because of our imperialistic invasion in everyone else' business. Fanatical religious nutcases wouldn't give a shit about the US if we weren't interfering in everyone else's business.

    In short: All of the problems that The State claims we need military force for were in fact caused by The State, or the combined effect of several States (which are nothing more than geographical blocks of centralized power). The solution is not for these various power-blocks to demolish eachother and murder the opposing State's citizens, but to eliminate The State.

    1. Re:military personal by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      The actions of the military consist of the murder of men, women, and children. You can say it was "collateral damage" or "during war", but that doesn't change the fact that murder is murder.

      Oh yeah? Which military? Have our enemies been as humane as the United States military? I think not. Our enemies have been the ones using underhanded tactics, torture, the muder of civilians and innocents. They dress military personal as civilians, torture and starve prisoners, throw the Geneva Convention out the window, and I can promise you, would not hesitate to kill American women and children.

      Hitler, WWII: Caused by the short-sighted and ignorant actions of the victors of WWI. WWII was made inevitable by the politicians who set up the treaty after WWI.

      And how would you have resolved it? Regardless of why it happened, it did. Adolf Hilter murdered and tortured millions of innocent men and women. What do you suggest should have been done? "Well, Mr. Hitler, we should have resolved World War I a little bit better... so I guess it's our fault." World War I was resolved in a way that everyone thought was best at the time. No one could predict that Germany would rise up and start murdering Jews. Hitler was an evil man, and the US was heroic in overthrowing him. We could have easily spared all of the American lives and said "You know what, it's just not worth it", but we're a good nation of good people. We try and fight for what is right.

      Somalians starving: I don't see how the plight of starving people can be solved by murder. In fact, pretty much all starvation and other miseries of the world are caused by The State.

      No, not by murder. We sent in PEACEKEEPING FORCES to try and stop the militias from taking all of the humanitarian aid. Simply put, the UN would hand out food and supplies, and the warlords would come in and take everything. We had nothing economic to gain from Somalia, we were just trying to do what was right. The militias were doing the murdering, that is what we were trying to stop. Once again, we could have saved the time, money, and American lives, but we tried to do what was right.

      Taliban, Afghanistan, WTC, and terrorists: The US is only a target of terrorism because of our imperialistic invasion in everyone else' business. Fanatical religious nutcases wouldn't give a shit about the US if we weren't interfering in everyone else's business.

      No, actually, fundamental Islam would have the entire world ruled by an Islamic theocracy. Talk about trying to push beliefs on people, they're 20x worse than the US, they're just not as large. Our culture is spreading and they hate us for it. What's even funnier is we let muslims come here and study, take advantage of our wealth and education, regardless of their creed and background. Our enemies aren't nearly as generous. We overthrow their oppressive governments and try and install something better. Reverse the situation, see what would happen if they overthrew the United States. We'd be living in a world I'm sure you wouldn't be too pleased with.

      The solution is not for these various power-blocks to demolish eachother and murder the opposing State's citizens, but to eliminate The State.

      Worst theory EVER. There will always be some form of "The State", because as soon as it becomes abolished, someone with power will reestablish it. Would you rather have people like Saddam Hussein ruling or ascend to power? Perhaps Osama Bin Laden? As flawed as it is, our "The State" is the best one in place. Pacifism, anarchy, all of it sounds beautiful in theory but it doesn't work, plain and simple.

      I am disgusted at how little credit people give the United States and it's military. Sometimes, we fuck up. We're a little arrogant. But dammit, we have helped more nations, rebuilt more cities, given out more foreign aid, and sacrificed more lives for the good of the world than anyone else. Often times it was for the sake

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
  22. you are naive by dh003i · · Score: 1

    Democracy is a beautiful thing.

    No, actually, Democracy is not a beatiful thing. Democracy creates a situation where the best liars will compete with one-another for the priviledge to steal from and exploit the taxpayer (that is, for the priviledge to be the net receiver of taxes).

    1. Re:you are naive by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      Oh, and what is better? Dictatorship? Monarchy? Communism?

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
    2. Re:you are naive by bugbread · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Benevolent oligarchy?

      Just a guess.

      While I also feel that the author is just being flippant and "rebellious", I have to say that just because something is the best, doesn't mean that it's "beautiful". Solid poo is better than squishy poo or watery poo. That doesn't make my poop beautiful.

      Ok, I guess now I'm being flippant ^_^

  23. In principle... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ...but not in practice.

    Can't do it. Socialism doesn't work on a large scale. Too many assumptions about the benevolence of human nature. The State, to steal your capitalization, exists because people on a large scale are stupid, mean, greedy and selfish--it's a metaview of humans themselves. To turn a political debate into a philosophical one, you can't get around this. There are just too damn many of us in too small an area, and it's hardwired in.

    Yeah, it's a sophomoric argument, but I like it.

  24. Every post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I've read all your posts in this thread, and the only question I can think of is, "What's your point?" You bitch, whine, moan, stun us with your intellect by using words like "anarcho-capitalistic," and accuse people of being murderers. Awesome. You'd gain a lot of creedence if you learned how to make an argument without being insulting.

    Basically, you're being childish. I bet you didn't even realize it, but that's how just about everybody reading your posts feels right now. Whatever your age is, you're a little kid, and people don't usually outgrow that. You have my sympathy and pity.

  25. Now if only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now if only they could make it not suck.

  26. defensive means exactly that by dh003i · · Score: 2, Insightful

    defensive. Retaliation is also justified, but only against they who initiated the aggression. "Japan" did not bomb Pearl Harbor. Specific air-force officers of Japan, under the orders of the leaders of Japan, bombed Pearl Harbor. Retaliation against those specific individuals -- and only those specific individuals -- would have been justified. Murdering those not involved -- as we did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and any other initiation of violence -- was not justified.

    1. Re:defensive means exactly that by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Morally, true.

      However, in practicality, actually obeying those dictums means that any person without scruples would immediately overtake any person with scruples. You'd have immediate degradation to rule by tyrrany. Any country with nuclear weapons that felt like attacking a "morally right" country could just give their leader a cell-phone and let him call in a nuclear attack. The only fear they'd have is that we might shoot the 15 or 20 people directly responsible for the missile launch, if we could find them.

      I am starting to suspect that you are (1) still in junior high, (2) not too bright, or (3) IHBT. HAND.

    2. Re:defensive means exactly that by dh003i · · Score: 1
      Practical concerns do not negate moral reality. If a 6' black man living in a certain area rapes my daughter, it would be expedient and 'practical' for me to just go about and kill every 6' tall black man in the area who met that description. However, that does not justify it morally. Likewise, neither do your claimed practical concerns justify murder on a mass scale.

      Any country with nuclear weapons that felt like attacking a "morally right" country could just give their leader a cell-phone and let him call in a nuclear attack

      You present that as if it is a certainty to occur. There is no reason why any nation would want to launch a nuclear attack against a libertarian "area" (you could not call it a State) that did not nose into everyone else' affairs. Furthermore, there is little use for nuclear weapons during the invasion of a non-aggressive area. The only reason to invade a non-aggressive block of land would be to control it's resources and benefit from them, including the people, who you would enslave. You cannot do that if you level everything to the ground, destroying all resources.

      Since the "US" would not be a nation -- would have no centralized power structure -- any occupying force would have to occupy all territory to effectively exert control, and then set up a central power-structure. This would be made exceedingly difficult by a population which would oppose with guerilla warfare (the only justified form of war). The meaningful way to invade such a nation would be with ground forces (soldiers). Aerial attacks would serve no function, as there would be no military targets to take out.

      The only fear they'd have is that we might shoot the 15 or 20 people directly responsible for the missile launch, if we could find them.

      And, of course, themselves. The assasination of leaders who order mass-murder is justified. However, murdering civilians who they also happen to oppress is not justified.

      I am starting to suspect that you are (1) still in junior high, (2) not too bright, or (3) IHBT. HAND.

      A lame ad hominem attempt to discredit me by presuming that your position is right, and anyone who disagrees with you is either young and naive or stupid. Btw, whatever IHBT/HAND means, I don't know.

      I would suggest that you read National Defense (search for National Defense).

    3. Re:defensive means exactly that by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Well, then, I will be forced to take the logically impossible stance that:

      What is morally wrong may not be the wrong thing to do. Considering human nature and the ease of tweaking the system, there appear to be cases where it is better to be morally wrong than to be morally right.

    4. Re:defensive means exactly that by ChaoticLimbs · · Score: 1

      You are a complete retard. Nothing I say or do can change that. And they were Japanese Navy officers, at that. Nothing in any of your posts reveals any hidden intellect or insight beyond what is shown here. Fuck off, you ignorant slut.

  27. anarcho-capitalism by dh003i · · Score: 1
    The best system is anarcho-capitalism, which would eliminate all centralized blocks of power, and allow the free market to operate without any harmful interference from States. See Rothbard's For a New Liberty

    If we have to choose between the evils of various forms of The State, the least harmful form would most likely be monarchy. See Democracy: The God That Failed

    1. Re:anarcho-capitalism by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Urgh...Libertarian...now I understand.

      I'd rather the police and courts protect me than to have to walk around with a gun everywhere like some bad Mad Max movie, thank you. The system may not be perfect as it stands, but it's better than living every day in terror.

    2. Re:anarcho-capitalism by deus_X_machina · · Score: 1

      No, thats a horrible idea. Then big business essentially gets to do whatever it wants.

      Libertarianism sounds great at first, a world where you can do what you want and nobody bugs you, but in actuality, then big business can be as large as it wants, do as it pleases, in a world where they aren't bugged.
      Philosophically, its close to exstentialism, which any philosopher knows is clearly incorrect and flawed.

      C'mon now, especially here on /., lets let Microsoft just fuck everyone as hard as they can, because it's their "right". At least we have some safeguards in place to keep them from taking over.

      The only thing Libertarianism says is this: "Me me me me me me me! Fuck everyone else! Fuck helping other nations! Me!"

      Disgusting.

      --
      "In a Democracy, people get the kind of government they deserve." -Winston Churchill
  28. Re:mis-characterization and mis-understanding of ( by bugbread · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Read it...and it says pretty much what I'd understood the libertarian platform to be. It's a scenario I would give anything to avoid. Right now the police at least have to give lip-service to treating everyone equally. If privatized to the degree it discusses in the link, the poor would have no protection at all. No thanks, I prefer civilization.

  29. red herrinb by dh003i · · Score: 1

    "Big corporations do whatever they want"? Yea, sure. That's bullshit. Firstly, there would be private law-enforcement, so they couldn't violate the non-aggression axiom without being held accountable. Secondly, what exactly do you mean by "whatever they want"? Last time I checked, anyone who bought MS software agreed to their licenses. No-one's forcing you to buy software from MS, or to buy from OEM's that pre-install MS. Goto Linux.org. There are plenty of vendors that sell Linux pre-installed (Craigweb even offers to install the distribution of your choice).

    Libertarianism is about property rights. Respecting property rights results in greater prosperity for all and a higher overall standard of living. As for all the individuals you think need help, individuals would be welcomed to help them in an anarcho-capitalist world. Without the government stealing 20%-50% of people's income, you'll find that people may be more generous with charity (and their money will go to efficient, productive operations, not wasteful inefficient State non-sense).

    As for your self-proclaimed righteousness, how exactly is The State helping anyone? The State has caused all sorts of disasters in international affairs. As for the "needy" individuals that you say The State helps -- namely, the poor -- all it really does is create an unhealthy attitude of dependence and entitlement. Minimum wage laws, for example, merely illegalize jobs at below minimum wage rates, which otherwise would have existed, thus benefitting union workers at the expense of young and inexperienced individuals. Welfare, for example, creates demand for laziness and ungainfulness. In NY, a woman on welfare with two kids gets $32,000 dollars in non-taxable money. What woman in her right mind would go out and get a job when she can get $32k for nothing? We can have exactly as much welfare as we're willing to pay for (namely, we create unemployment via welfare).

    1. Re:red herrinb by qtp · · Score: 1

      there would be private law-enforcement,

      Who would be responsible to only thier investors.

      Libertarianism is about property rights.

      That's funny, there was a time that Libertarianism was about liberty (which was then defined as "freedom of action").

      how exactly is The State helping anyone?

      building public roads, providing public education, protecting your right to own property, etc.

      As for the "needy" individuals that you say The State helps -- namely, the poor

      and the working class. You know, those persons who did the work that created the wealth that the investors then enjoy. That "Capital is only the fruit of Labor" is as true today as it was 150 years ago. The many wealthy persons I hear crying about how taken advantage of seem to have a much greater "sense of entitlement" than the poorer members of our society.

      And the system you are describing (a government based entirely on ownership and property rights) has been implemented before as feudalism. It was found to be lacking in several respects, failed to keep any real semblance of order (peasant uprisings, property owners needing armed guards to leave thier houses, absolute brutality towards the peasants on the part of the militias, very few people being able to obtain educations befitting thier abilities, extremely restricted trade due to the high tolls charged on the privately owned roadways, no protections for freedom of speech, assembly, or religeon, etc.) and had the entire western world sunken into a nearly constant state of war.

      --
      Read, L
    2. Re:red herrinb by dh003i · · Score: 1
      Who would be responsible to only thier investors.

      Which would be almost all property owners, and all those who own apartment complexes. Since many of the lower and middle class live in apartments, they're covered by their landlord's private law-enforcement, even if they don't have their own private insurance. Furthermore, you continue to ignore the fact that law-enforcement is provided by the hard work and labor of law-enforcement agencies. No-one is entitled to their labor without compensating them for it, nor are those who can't afford to do so entitled to steal from other's to compensate law-enforcement. Rothbard addresses your questions:

      But how could a poor person afford private protection he would have to pay for instead of getting free protection, as he does now?" There are several answers to this question, one of the most common criticisms of the idea of totally private police protection. One is: that this problem of course applies to any commodity or service in the libertarian society, not just the police. But isn't protection necessary? Perhaps, but then so is food of many different kinds, clothing, shelter, etc. Surely these are at least as vital if not more so than police protection, and yet almost nobody says that therefore the government must nationalize food, clothing, shelter, etc., and supply these free as a compulsory monopoly. Very poor people would be supplied, in general, by private charity, as we saw in our chapter on welfare. Furthermore, in the specific case of police there would undoubtedly be ways of voluntarily supplying free police protection to the indigent--either by the police companies themselves for goodwill (as hospitals and doctors do now) or by special "police aid" societies that would do work similar to "legal aid" societies today. (Legal aid societies voluntarily supply free legal counsel to the indigent in trouble with the authorities.)

      There are important supplementary considerations. As we have seen, police service is not "free"; it is paid for by the taxpayer, and the taxpayer is very often the poor person himself. He may very well be paying more in taxes for police now than he would in fees to private, and far more efficient, police companies. Furthermore, the police companies would be tapping a mass market; with the economies of such a large-scale market, police protection would undoubtedly be much cheaper. No police company would wish to price itself out of a large chunk of its market, and the cost of protection would be no more prohibitively expensive than, say, the cost of insurance today. (In fact, it would tend to be much cheaper than current insurance, because the insurance industry today is heavily regulated by government to keep out low-cost competition.

      there was a time that Libertarianism was about liberty (which was then defined as "freedom of action").

      Property rights are required for liberty. Anyone who doubts that can only look at the "freedom of speech" we see on government-owned and regulated airwaves. See Rothbard's Personal Liberty. For a relevant quote:

      THE LIBERTARIAN CREED rests upon one central axiom: that no man or group of men may aggress against the person or property of anyone else. This may be called the "nonaggression axiom." "Aggression" is defined as the initiation of the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. Aggression is therefore synonymous with invasion.

      If no man may aggress against another; if, in short, everyone has the absolute right to be "free" from aggression, then this at once implies that the libertarian stands foursquare for what are generally known as "civil liberties": the freedom to speak, publish, assemble, and to engage in such "victimless crimes" as pornography, sexual deviation, and prostitution (which the libertarian does not regard as "crimes" at all, since he defines a "crime" as violent

    3. Re:red herrinb by qtp · · Score: 1

      Lincoln -- a horrid despot

      I'm beginning to wonder what exactly you might be tempted to include in your definition of property.

      --
      Read, L
  30. liberal drivel by dh003i · · Score: 1

    as the article said, law-enforcement agencies would likely protect the poor anyways. It provides good reputation. Likewise, not only would individuals have protection, but store, street, and apartment owners would have protection for their businesses. They would be protected simply by living on the land of those who pay for protection, for the sake of their business.

  31. you said it by dh003i · · Score: 1

    logically impossible. Such an argument is self-contradictory and thus self-defeating. No thinking person could possibly accept such an argument. I need say no more.

    1. Re:you said it by bugbread · · Score: 1

      The fact is just that I have no desire to continue the argument to prove my point. My dad is a libertarian. Great guy, but when it comes to politics, he can't see reality for theory. I know from experience that a discussion with him about politics generally takes several hours before we reach an essential kernel of disagreement (let's say "the axiom of choice") such as "people are essentially evil" vs. "people are essentially good", or "people want others to succeed" vs "people want to be superior to others" upon which everything else hinges. I could try to trace this back with you, but it takes a long long time, and, as I don't know you, and as this type of discussion is not about convincing people, but discovering which fundamental axiom is disagreed on, I don't feel a particularly strong desire to find that kernel.

      By the way, any decent Zen monk could accept that argument, and you'd be hard-pressed to find Zen monks to be "non-thinking". I need say no more.

  32. PS by dh003i · · Score: 1

    as for your self-righteousness, your position boils down to the traditional socialist line. You claim to be a philantrophist because you use other people's money -- that you stole -- to help those you deem in need. Sorry, the motives for thievery and robbery do not change the fact that that's what it is. If I steal from you, it doesn't matter whether I'm stealing from you to buy food for a starving person or buy myself a CD. It's still stealing, and I should go to jail.

  33. ha! ad hominem by dh003i · · Score: 1

    in other words, because you cannot come up with any logically consistent counter-argument to my moral statement, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

  34. on virtual roles... by wrinkledshirt · · Score: 1

    ...providing civilians with an inside perspective and a virtual role in today's premiere land force, the U.S. Army.

    Oh? So the game provides you with thousands of innocent civilians to kill? Or does it offer you leisure time to get some feedback from the locals?

    I hope not. I hate it when fun little fantasies get complicated by reality. Hopefully all the bad guys look like Osama or Saddam.

    --

    --------
    Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...

  35. appeal to authority by dh003i · · Score: 1
    appealing to what you think a Zen-monk would accept hardly verifies the validity of your arguments. The simple fact of the matter is that it is Statists who are naive (or simply evil and corrupt). To hand over large amounts of centralized power to individuals and then ask them not to abuse that power -- using some worthless piece of paper, such as the Constitution, which is interpretted by those same individuals -- is laughable.

    A true fundamental axiom is indisputeable. The non-aggression axiom fits that category (and from the non-aggression axiom can be derived the homesteading principle, and all the other facets of libertarianism:

    It is illegal to initiate violence against anyone else.

    This axiom is indisputeable by argumentation. Simply by arguing, you verify this argument. For if you didn't accept it, you wouldn't bother arguing, but would simply assault or murder all those who disagreed with you.

    Fundamental aspects of libertarian economics (Austrian Economics) are also indisputeable, such as the axiom that man acts to replace a less satisfactory situation with a more satisfactory one, or the axiom that all individuals have a certain degree of time preference (a preference for goods now, as opposed to in the future).

    I suggest you take a look at For a New Liberty, by Murray N. Rothbard. Libertarianism is very much oriented towards reality. Anyone who reads Mises.org could easily see that. Articles discussing an important problem with any State (the need to tax, which always distorts the free market and reduces wealth by redirecting investment from fruitful free-market entreprise to wasteful government operations like the export of murder on a mass scale):

    Taxes and Distortion
    Hidden Taxes
    The Myth of Neutral Taxation

    1. Re:appeal to authority by bugbread · · Score: 1

      "appealing to what you think a Zen-monk would accept hardly verifies the validity of your arguments"

      I wasn't aware that that is what I did. I just pointed out that your statement that a thinking person could not accept a paradox was not necessarily true. I certainly didn't mean to use it as a defense for my argument.

      "To hand over large amounts of centralized power to individuals and then ask them not to abuse that power is laughable"

      As is handing all power over to the wealthy and then asking them not to abuse that power.

      "It is illegal to initiate violence against anyone else."

      This axiom is indisputeable by argumentation.


      Because you said so? Illegal in what country? Illegal in what province? What about in areas with no defined laws? Is initiation of violence illegal on Mars? I suspect you meant "immoral". If not, look up the word "illegal". If you meant "immoral", then I could as easily posit that I don't kill people because it is personally distasteful. I also avoid eating poop or having sex with blow-up dolls. It is not because either is immoral or illegal, but because I don't like it.

      I've had my fill of Libertarianism, thank you. Plenty of it at home. There are some great aspects, don't get me wrong. But there are some horrible aspects as well. Libertarianism, like most ideologies, is based in reductionism. Ironically enough, it reminds me most strongly of its diametric opposite, Communism, in the disingenuous dismissal of all issues as the result of one central "original sin"-like evil.

    2. Re:appeal to authority by bugbread · · Score: 1

      On reflection...doh!

      Sometimes I can be so easily trolled...

    3. Re:appeal to authority by dh003i · · Score: 1

      What I meant is that it should be illegal, not that it is immoral (there is a difference between what is immoral and what should be illegal).

      As for your assertion that libertarianism hands power to the wealthy, that's non-sense. They earn money by satisfying the consumer; if they stop doing that, they stop earning money. Because of private courts, they cannot abuse that power.

    4. Re:appeal to authority by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Do you really find that most wealthy people are that way because of satisfying the consumer?

  36. Wanted: torrent and exe by Reez · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. is there a linux torrent for AA 2.0 ?
    2. is there an archive with linux exes for those who have the win version ?

    seems not, please prove me wrong.

    kthxbye.

  37. the reason they're wealthy by dh003i · · Score: 1

    is usually because they make a product the consumer buys. Which means that -- considering the desired quality, price, and value -- the customer likes it. Or maybe they're rich because they invested their money well, thus funding fruitful and productive private enterprises, which ultimately must serve consumers. Possibly they just inherited it, which means their parents (or their parents parents, etc) did one of the above things well. In any case, they will have to do something with their money. Even if it's just sitting in a bank, it is being invested by the bank. Most likely, it will be invested; if they make poor investment decisions, they will be punished by the loss of money, that money which will flow to those who make more intelligent investments.

    The point is, rich people have a "boss" as well, at least if they want to continue making money and stay rich: consumers. They also have to satisfy employees, for otherwise employees will go to other business'. If they fail to serve the consumer, they will lose market share and lose money; if they fail to treat their employees well, the future of their company will be at stake. They will keep the money they've already earned or inherited, but it will slowly wither away unless they do something productive.

    Even for those who inherit their money, there is nothing wrong with this, unlike what most flaming liberal nutcases will say. Individuals work hard not only for themselves, but also to set up the security and comfort of their children and those they love. Sorry, but I'm not working hard so that the parasites that the government feeds can get 50% of my money (that's why intelligent individuals put their money in some kind of trust). Just as I earn my money, so should I be allowed to decide who it goes to.

    1. Re:the reason they're wealthy by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Well, then, it looks like we've hit the philosophical core disagreement pretty quickly. I personally believe people are essentially selfish and evil (poor and rich alike), and that as wealth grants power, it also grants the ability to abuse said power, hence extending the amount of power even further just brings on worse results.

      We have an unaddressable fundamental belief difference, which is a good place to stop this discussion.

  38. still no vehicles... by bobsalt · · Score: 1

    I believe the game engine supports vehicles...why no vehicles? I got over q3 about 3 years ago...


  39. Re:yay! by Lord+Kano · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    PS: Does anyone else think the commercial for MS' game, Rainbow Six, is fucked up? "Freedom isn't free". Iow, to be free, we need to murder lots of people in other countries. What abhorrent bullshit.

    I'm sure that you'd also hate to see what it looks like when they make sausage.

    War is ugly business. War is an abomination to God and man. War is also unfortunately sometimes necessary. Some of the people in this world are BAD people. Some of the people in this world think nothing of killing innocents. The only way to stop people like that is with force. Monsters we are, lest monsters we become.

    To be honest, I was against the war in Iraq, but Saddam is/was a monster and the world as well as the people of Iraq are better off without him.

    LK

    --
    "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  40. hmpf by dh003i · · Score: 1

    even if you have such a shallow one-dimensional belief about the way people operate (which is on par with the belief's Sade held), that hardly means that libertarianism doesn't work. Quite the opposite, it means that Statism can't work. On the free market, money does not grant individuals the harmful powers that The State has (the territorial monopoly on the initiation of violence). If they fail to do whatever it is that got them the money in the first place (good investing, serving consumer well), they will cease making it, and their money will slowly deteriorate. They have no real ability to abuse their power in any significant way, as if they initiate violence against other's, free market law-enforcement agencies will arrest them, and they will be trialed in private courts and punished.

    1. Re:hmpf by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Actually, it means that all systems of management of groups/resources (government, anarchy, decentralization, etc.) will tend towards badness, hence the cyclical tendencies of history. And it's no more one-dimensional than the idea that the State is the cause of all our troubles and that pure free market will solve things.

      I've seen too much oppression of people without money by people with money to believe that, given more freedom, people with power will use it more responsibly.

      Witness bans on the homeless sleeping outside. Even with todays' frameworks, this happens. When law enforcement, courts, etc. are privatized, this type of problem will only be exacerbated. Or do you think the homeless will gather together enough money to get free market law-enforcement agencies to arrest the middle class folks who put these kinds of bans into effect? Perhaps in a free-market law enforcement scenario the rich would not be oppressing the middle class, but there is no way the lower class could gather the capital necessary to stop something supported by the combined wealth of the middle class and upper class combined.

      In a libertarian scenario, Bill Gates, with his $30 million salary, could spend $50,000 dollars (3.5 hours of pay) to have the right to shoot me in the head in the middle of a crowded street. He could spend $100,000 per witness (let's say 20 witnesses) (for a total of 140 hours of work) to say they didn't see anything, or else they'd be next. Maybe $1 million to the private police force to have them drop the issue (a significant 70 hours of work). And then there would be no means of addressal. For a total of 213.5 hours work (a month and a half or so), he could kill me in cold blood in public and get away scott-free, guaranteed. I would have to work 61 years to have the resources to protect myself.

      Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Putting power that is limited only by wealth in the hands of the almost limitlessly wealthy guarantees that the wealthy can do whatever they want to do with impunity. This, to me, seems like a "bad thing".

      I think a major failing with most people who are politically motivated is that they have a very simplistic belief that there is some form of perfect government, and that we just haven't implemented it yet. Reality is not as simple and one-dimensional as they tend to believe.

  41. fine with me by dh003i · · Score: 1

    Retaliatory force against those who initiate violence is fine with me. What's not fine with me is the murder of innocent civilians because it is convenient to kill large blocks of people. If someone robs from me, I don't get to nuke all of the city.

  42. bzzt! wrong! by dh003i · · Score: 1

    a defensive war means a war fought against those invading your country. It does not mean taking the war to their country. During the Revolutionary War, we didn't go to Britain and murder British citizens. What you describe is a pre-emptive war, which is really no different than me saying "I think you're going to hit me, so I'll just kill you now". That's not acceptable. As for WWII, that was made a certainty by the way we handled the ending of WWI ("the war to end all wars"). WWI, btw, would have been resolved in stand-still, had not the US become involved. Finally, WWI -- and all wars, indeed -- are only possible due to the centralized power constituting a territorial monopoly on the initiation of violence known as The State.

    1. Re:bzzt! wrong! by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      During the Revolutionary War, we didn't go to Britain and murder British citizens.

      And???

      What you describe is a pre-emptive war, which is really no different than me saying "I think you're going to hit me, so I'll just kill you now".

      Pearl Harbor? Come on, I know you saw that Ben Afleck movie. In case you didn't know, it was based on a real event.

      As for WWII, that was made a certainty by the way we handled the ending of WWI ("the war to end all wars").

      True, but hindsight is 20/20. That mistake is best not repeated.

      Finally, WWI -- and all wars, indeed -- are only possible due to the centralized power constituting a territorial monopoly on the initiation of violence known as The State.

      "The State" is what makes currency possible. It also has to power to regulate water quality, consumer product safety, pave roads, and make sure that some tyrant doesn't come and take your property or your life without repercussions.

      Given my choice, I'll accept the possible problems that come with the existance of "the state" over those certain problems what come without it.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
  43. wow, what idiocy by dh003i · · Score: 1
    it means that all systems of management of groups/resources (government, anarchy, decentralization, etc.) will tend towards badness, hence the cyclical tendencies of history. And it's no more one-dimensional than the idea that the State is the cause of all our troubles and that pure free market will solve things

    Firstly, Libertarianism makes no assumption that people are inherently good. It would work better than any other system even if people were only inherently evil, crooked, selfish and corrupt. Obviously, any system will work better if most people are good. The point of libertarianism is that it doesn't require dubious assumptions about the "goodness" of people to work. Secondly, the unhampered free market isn't a magic bullet. It's not some garden of eden. It's simply the best system available for respecting individual's property rights. It also happens to be the best economic system, but that is aside from the point.

    Witness bans on the homeless sleeping outside. Even with todays' frameworks, this happens. When law enforcement, courts, etc. are privatized, this type of problem will only be exacerbated.

    The "problem" is with the homeless people who refuse to get a job. Sorry, but no-one has the right to tresspass on anyone else' property, homeless or not. Of course, absent a State, there wouldn't be assinite labor laws which illegalize jobs. In an unhampered free market, almost all unemployment would be voluntary.

    In a free market, the poor would have to pay for the services they get, just like anyone else. Irrelevant of the perceived need, no-one has the right to obtain the service of someone else without compensating them what they'd accept of their own free will for that service. That is slavery. Simply because someone happens to provide the service of a room to sleep in, or a meal, or medical services, does not mean that we get to enslave them for "the greater good" (a bunch of subjective non-sense). If the poor want room and board, they'll have to pay for it. Of course, you make the dubious assumption that no-one would allow the poor to sleep on their property, or help them out. This is contradicted by the reality of what we see today, where people contribute to homeless shelters, even though the government steals up to 50% of their income.

    Irrelevant of your subjective opinions on the overall good, no-one has the right to steal from anyone else.

    In a libertarian scenario, Bill Gates, with his $30 million salary, could...[bribe everyone and get away with murder]

    First of all, we'd have to question if Bill Gates could even exist in an unhampered free market. Remember, he's made his money via government-granted monopolies (patents and copyrights). These would not exist in the free market. Even so, let's assume someone making $40mil in the free market. That doesn't mean that such a scenario as you describe would be possible. First of all, that assumes that the only concern people have is a monetary concern, and completely dismisses any moral concerns individuals may have. Secondly, any private police officer who took a bribe would risk being charged with a crime in a private court by the protection agency he works for. He's also risk being labelled a co-conspirator by any private prosecution (or crime-insurance) agencies and trialed in a court. Thirdly, even if the absurd scenario you suggest could happen, it is nothing that is unique to an anarcho-capitalist sytem. It could just as easily happen right now.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Putting power that is limited only by wealth in the hands of the almost limitlessly wealthy guarantees that the wealthy can do whatever they want to do with impunity.

    This simply is not true, namely because the "limitlessly wealthy" have to get their wealth from somewhere. They would be just as subject to the non-aggression axiom as anyone else. If they had someone tortured or murdered, then by the estoppel approach and proportionality, they would be subject t

    1. Re:wow, what idiocy by bugbread · · Score: 1

      "The "problem" is with the homeless people who refuse to get a job."

      The "problem" is with people with mental illnesses. I'm not sure that the free market is any better than any other economic or governmental force at curing that. If you believe the homeless are all that way because they are lazy or regulated out of easy but low paying jobs, you might want to take your nose out of a book for a while and actually look around you.

      "no-one has the right to tresspass on anyone else' property, homeless or not."

      Where would you suggest they sleep?

      "That is slavery."

      Um, no, that is not slavery. I am not a homeless person's chattel.

      "you make the dubious assumption that no-one would allow the poor to sleep on their property, or help them out. This is contradicted by the reality of what we see today, where people contribute to homeless shelters"

      No, I make the assumption that groups of people will pool their resources to enforce rules over areas of land surrounding where they live (witness homeowner's associations, based on preventing other people from doing something to their own property that neighbors disagree with). As long as more people who pay for the laws (or whatever the free-market equivalent is) in an area dislike having homeless people than people don't mind them, then there will be no homeless people.

      "First of all, that assumes that the only concern people have is a monetary concern, and completely dismisses any moral concerns individuals may have"

      For the sake of argument, it does. Apologies.

      "even if the absurd scenario you suggest could happen, it is nothing that is unique to an anarcho-capitalist sytem. It could just as easily happen right now"

      Now who's being absurd? You honestly think that Bill Gates could shoot me in cold blood in the middle of the street and bribe his way out of it?

      "There is nothing special or magical about that that makes it best suited to solve any problem"

      Nor is there anything about the free market that does the same.

      "free market entities are excellent at solving problems"

      ...when it is profitable to do so. They are not good at fixing societal problems. Witness the fact that, as bad as you may consider socialist countries, in America I had a friend with chronic back pain who couldn't wait until he entered university so that he could visit the doctor. He didn't have enough money to pay otherwise. My Japanese friends, with their "evil fascist" socialist health care, cannot imagine this.

      "all States mandate the systematic thievery from and robbery of the tax-payers (this effectively amounts to their enslavement, as they are working a portion of the year for no compensation). Nothing can justify this enslavement."

      Providing for the needy justifies it, and, remember: you choose to work or not. Slaves do not choose whether or not to work. You are playing the word "slavery" loose and fast.

  44. god fucking damnit by dh003i · · Score: 1

    Er, I'll reply later on. I just finished typing a response when fucking Galeon crashed.

  45. wow, you've really been brainwashed by dh003i · · Score: 1
    by that, I can only presume that you've been brainwashed into thinking that Lincoln was a great supporter of the abolitionist movement and a supporter of African-American rights. In reality, nothing could possibly be further from the truth. You would be hard-pressed to find a bigger bigot than Lincoln. Lincoln was such a racist that he didn't like slavery because it meant that we'd have to live with African Americans...he wanted to ship them all back to Africa.


    The following links may prove informative on the real Abraham Lincoln:


    Confronting the Lincoln Cult

    The truth spitter

    Rethinking Lincoln [mp3]

    The Real Lincoln [mp3]