India Test-Fires Cryogenic Rocket Engine

alphakappa writes "Wired News reports that India has successfully testfired a cryogenic rocket engine that can be used to 'launch high-altitude satellites, send a man to the moon -- or build intercontinental ballistic missiles'. The rocket which typically has to fire for 12 minutes during flight was fired for 17 minutes during ground testing. So are we gonna see competition in the moon race? Remember, India has already spoken about sending a mission to the moon and it has joined the Galileo consortium along with China."

Comments

Before

[Gyan]

anyone comes out and spouts the "stolen or bought technology" meme, the Wired article says

India's bid to develop its own cryogenic engines suffered several setbacks. In 1992, Russia agreed to give India the technology but reversed the decision after Moscow signed the Missile Technology Control Regime with the United States. Washington objected to giving India the technology because of its potential use for nuclear missiles.

Russia later agreed to sell fully built engines, without passing on the technology, to India.

India developed a rudimentary form of its cryogenic technology in 2001 and several tests were held after that to fine-tune it.

Re:Before

[ninejaguar]

A significant number of German scientists were captured by the now defunct Soviets. They were immediately put to work to fight the cold war.

You may even remember that half of Germany belonged to the Soviets until the 90's. There was a little something called the Berlin wall that separated communist Germany from democratic Germany.

= 9J =

Re:Before

[mikerich]

US rockets - yes. Russian rockets - no. they developed them by themselves

The Americans got the vast majority of the V2 development team and hardware; they then demolished the production lines which fell inside the Soviet sector of Germany.

Sergei Korolev and his team were sent to Germany to review the wreckage, they retrieved plenty of information which they put to good use in the R1 which was a Soviet copy of the V2.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Before

[axxackall]

Before that there was the RGD team headed by Tsiolkovky with sucessful flights in 1930x. Later, right after WW2, Soviets used the chance to kidnap some German scientists, but I heard the rumor (inside Soviet space research secret labs) that those German scientists did not really helped by remaking V-2 blueprints. If Germans would not have been kidnapped, then Soviets would just have to sponsor further reseach and development of the original RGD seria.

actually...

[acehole]

It does have to do with freezing of sorts, because the gases that are required for fuel oxygen and hydrogen (as well as a mixture of others) are gaseous in normal atmospheric conditions. They are required to be cooled down to a liquid state, hence the name "cryogenic rocket engine".

Re:actually... (+a URL)

[trystanu]

A nice article on Cryogenic Rocket engines is available here .

Re:am i the only one confused ?

[fox2mike]

Every other component of the GSLV was built in India. The Cryo engine came from Russia.

ICBM ???

[Crashmarik]

Not unless they want an incredibly slow to prepare and obvious missile fleet.

The problem with cryogenic fueled rocket engines is that you have to fuel them before you fire them. Filling a missile fleet with LOX takes time and if anyone notices gives them ample opportunity to preemptively strike.

Re:not the moon

[frodo from middle ea]

when you've got to the Moon, what challenge can you honestly say is too big to even attempt?

Hmm, let me see, from India's perspective , the bigger challanges are ....

Poverty :- The country's wealth is divided by the 90-10 rule. i.e. 10% of the population has 90% of the wealth.
Illiteracy :- More than 50%. And since being literate means being able to sign your name, the actual figures could be as high as 70-75%
Rampant Political/Economical and Social Corruption :- Forget the politicians , I can't get my mail if I don't tip my postman.
Infrastructure :- One of the world's worst . So much Red tape everywhere.
Transportation and Safety :- Barring major cities, public transport is a mess and not every one can afford their own vehicle. Road/Rail accidents account for most no. of deaths in the country.
Disaster Recovery:- No set plans and procedures for natural disaster recovery from floods , famines, fires etc. People are left at the mercy of nature and rehabilitation is a joke.

I am not a westerner trying to judge india, I am an indian , humbly pointing out what our top priorities should be.

volatile != explosive

[Euler]

From the article:

"A cryogenic missile cannot be fired at a moment's notice. The fuel cannot be stored in a rocket indefinitely because it is highly explosive, so a missile would have to be fueled before launching."

Huh?! Cryogenic fuels are volatile, meaning the fuel will eventually all evaporate. But not explosive while just sitting in the tank.
Volatile does not mean explosive!

Re:Why just Pakistan?

[bj8rn]

I wasn't saying that India would want to attack those all those other countries. I was just saying that by showing that they have the capability to do some real harm to others, India would gain more influence in the world. Which would keep others from messing with them.

As for being peace-loving, that's what everybody says themselves to be.

Re:Why just Pakistan?

[lommer]

Wow, the historical ignorance displayed in this post is astounding:

The ONLY reason nuclear war didn't break out during those years was because a. we'd have volatilized them and b. the Russians were never quite sure their equipment would actually work. Furthermore, they knew that we were highly unlikely to ever fire the first shot.

Please post some sources for this opinion - it's highly unconventional and conflicts with the generally accepted historical view. The Russians were actually fairly confident in their missile capability, and as much as the states yould have "volatized" them, they would have volatized us. The reason nuclear war didn't break out was because of the principal of MAD, which you cite in your introduction but clearly don't seem to understand.

Pakistan has atom bombs (only fission weapons at this point, I understand), India either does or isn't far behind and China most likely does but probably wouldn't admit it yet.

For your information, China has had nukes and openly admitted it since 1964, and has had intercontinental capability since not-long-after. India tested a civilian nuclear device in 1974, and then detonated both fission AND fusion bombs in 1998. Pakistan detonated their fission bomb in response.

Given the political and economic instability of the Middle East and the Orient, I have no doubt that any of the major "peace loving" players would be perfectly capable of firing that first shot.

None of the nations you have cited are the most likely perpetrator of the first shot in that scenario - Isreal is (They have nukes, but won't admit it). In fact the closest this world has ever come to nuclear war was not the Cuban missile crisis (as most Americans would like to believe), but the Yom Kippur War. Had Isreal not been able to reverse their apalling rout with an emergency infusion of US arms, this world would have seen nukes flying in the middle east.

Please, go take a 20th century history course or do some reading before you start spouting off unfounded opinions on slashdot. Most slashdot posts have at least some (tenuous) grounding in reality.

Re:Nobody is going to build a cyrogenic ICBM

[lommer]

Actually, there is significant evidence that points to the American deployment of Jupiter missiles in Turkey as the cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis. Kruschev never publicly admitted it, and frequently gave multiple different vague reasons for the USSR's nuclear involvement in Cuba. Years after the crisis, it was revealed that in order to get the Russians to back down, Kennedy agreed to remove the missiles from turkey within a year or two. This was one of the Russian's chief demands, but Kennedy insisted that it not be publicly revealed so that he could be seen as a public hero who was tough on the Russians for the upcoming election.

The other leading cause for the Cuban Missile Crisis was the missile gap. A number of other factors definitely contributed, so much so that there isn't really historical agreement on the subject at all.

Re:Um, have you read the paper in the last 10 year

[Anonymous Coward]

Any justification for India being on top of your list???
You seem to be severely misinformed. India advocates the policy of no first-use of nukes. And the reason you give is flimsy because India can steam roll Pakistan in any conventional war like it did in 1965, 1971 and 1998(a small one) when Pakistan tried to invade Kashmir. The best chance of India using nukes first is if and when China invades it like it did in 1962 when India was brutalized. I would put North Korea,Pakistan, Israel before India in that list.

Here are some links to substantiate my argument.
link1
link2

This article directly nullifies your ranking of India above Pakistan
link3

Not just fireworks

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese rockets were used for more than entertainment. They were one of the key weapons in the Battle of Kaifeng almost 800 years ago (1232 AD).

Re:Nobody is going to build a cyrogenic ICBM

[good soldier svejk]

The US tried that in the 1950s. Atlas ICBMs were deployed from 1969 to 1965, but those missiles were replaced with solid fuel ICBMs as soon as it was possible to do so. Atlas boosters are still used as launchers, but their ICBM career was short.

Although the first generation Atlas and Titan ICBM's were phased out by 1965, the US continued to operate the liquid fuel Titan II until 1987. SAC actually introduced Titan II two years after the solid fuel Minuteman series. Although more difficult and dangerous to operate and maintain (not to mention much greater launch time), the Titan had a much greater payload than the Minuteman.