Slashdot Mirror
Linux To Power NWS's Storm Prediction System
Mr. Plow writes "The National Weather Service is migrating to Linux-based IBM workstations and has purchased 900 IBM computers and 160 servers to do so." He includes links to coverage at Forbes (a Reuters wire service story there), Government Computer News, and
Computerworld.
With windows all you see is blue
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
... I use electricity for power. Should I change to this "linux". Maybe linux is more secure.
Who wants reports favourable to penguins?
we can expect even less predictable forecasts while they get used to the new system, eh?
That's a increase of about 48 times of computing power and the app just loads 3 times that fast? Something has to be seriously wrong with this setup!
Hmmm... I don't need that many computers to forecast many SCO lawsuits in their future.
/sig
Interesting, according to this
.the switch has helped increase data processing speed.
Linux first appeared on the NWS scene in 1995 in the form of Slackware
And in comparison to their previous HP-UX systems:-
. .
"The performance that we measure with our benchmark has increased by over 100% since we completed phase one of our Linux migration," happily boasts Piercy.
Unsettled weather for the duration of the migration?
Are forecasts really getting better as computer power increases? I know that Metrology is always in need of more computer cycles to model the weather, but have forecasts actually improved with this power? Are there any success statistics around?
I'm a NWS forecaster. We have our new workstations... they are pretty darn nifty. They are dual Xeons (2.4 ghz) running RedHat 7.2. These are much improved over the old HPs, which were J200 (overview). The bad news is that the database and application servers are still the old HPs. These are scheduled to be replaced in the near future as well.
Journal
Of course... With windows all you see is blue
Of course, the NWS is using Linux to replace HP-UX workstations.
Dear NWS,
As I understand, you've recently upgraded your workstations to some slick IBM machines running Linux. Congrats. Now, about your old workstations. I'd be willing to take the off your hands, I won't even charge anything. I just want to see them go to a good home, not some dumpster behind your building -- ya know, [insert their address here].
Thank you,
Me.
Fortress of Insanity
What would have been far more interesting is a Windows to Linux migration with the same improvement in performance and TCO.
http://www.transparency.org
Having someone big and respected like the NWS using Linux and announcing it publically should help Linux's respectability quotient in the US a lot. I'm glad to see this happening, both because it increases Linux's usage out there, and because it'll save us money (IIRC, the NWS is taxpayer funded), and probably lead to more accurate forecasts. It seems every time the computers they use get faster/more powerful, the forecasts get better. :)
That the migration is from HP UX boxes to Linux, not from Windows as some people might assume.
So what? Is every single Linux user news? John Smith of 45 Roadway now uses Linux!!! stop the presses!
Also "using Linux" and just happening to have the kernel handy are two different things. Are the NWS guys likely to contribute back to the OSS scene? I doubt it. So who gives a shit if they use Linux?
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
My frog, actually croakes and stares at the open window, whenever it is going to rain, otherwise he just stares at the TV - although I have started noticing recently, that he doesn't care much about rain if Sex in the City is on.
--Sig here--
Almost every day I read about a department, agency, company or even country switching to linux. I rarely read about switching from linux back to windows. Where is this inconceivebly high implementation and training cost for linux that micosoft keeps whining about?
Would this mean that they would get the same predictions, just a little faster?
Would more capable machines mean that they could run some more-complex versions of the prediction routines they run now? Say, with more grid points, or smaller time divisions?
Are the current prediction routines OS-dependent, so that they'll have to be ported to the new Linux OS? Is that easy or hard?
What effect does the new Linux OS have on future application development? Are the existing development tools HP-UX oriented? Does that mean they would need a new tool set to do their development?
The Law of Falling Bodies
Actualy I see a storm brewing from the Redmond area. It could be a big one.
The truth shall set you free!
OK. I guess that is why they are called errographers. I think Redomnd is trying for the title.
The truth shall set you free!
Why Redmond? This move is killing more proprietary Unix boxes, not Windows boxes.
A Good Intro to NetBS
Why not using free systems like distributed.net, wich is 1) more powerfull and 2) free. People would be glad to help predict better weather, since actually they can't predict correctly 24h in advance ....
More desks needing apps. The biggest thing keeping Redmond on the desktop is off the shelf software selecton. When the Linus Apps section gets bigger at Best Buy then the Apple section, then MS will be really worried.
MS would prefer nobody uses a non-MS desktop (server also, but that is a big battlezone now).
The truth shall set you free!
I read a while back that proprietary forecasting companies wanted to shut down, or prevent, NWS from giving away for free, weather forecasts. Proprietary companies that make their living selling forecasts to news stations and others were complaining that the federal government wasn't supposed to compete with the private sector. I think there were even some legislative efforts under way.
The article mentioned several other non-weather related areas in government where they were successful. Can't remember the details right now.
Have you heard anything about this recently?
First, as I repeatedly say, this isnt an organization choosing "Linux". This is an org choosing IBM, who is intelligently exploiting a free product in order to sell their product. Im shocked more companies arent jumping on the OSS bandwagon for the same reason- having people make your programs for you, for FREE? Amazing!
Second, when you have a huge system like weather prediction, nobody is going to use Windows for that. Nor is Windows even going after the mainframe market- Data Center Server is not what most people think it is.
Finally, Windows NT/2000/2003 servers, if set up by somebody who actually knows what they are doing, are highly stable. The problem is most people dont know what they are doing, and just blame MS for their mistakes.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
There is a magical stone which makes soup taste good. You take the stone and add to it carrot, potatoes, onions, and perhaps beef, if you like. Boil them in water, and the stone makes everything taste good.
The US Air Force's New Tactical Forecast System runs on Red Hat 7.1. I think there is just one server at every base.
When someone told me they wanted to accredit the NTFS system, I was like, WTF?
they forecast.
That is all.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Echo chamber.
You are only reading Slashdot, where Windows->Linux conversions are highly-publicized.
Note: I love Linux, and can't stand using Windows, but that doesn't make this statement any less true.
[ home ]
I took a field trip (science camp) to the Wilmington NWS station in NC. The guy said they used about 80% linux (not Unix) boxes for work. This was back in July...
I used to work as a Sys Admin for the NWS a a few years back where we used AWIPS(the forecast folks were in another building) - and even then the HP workstations were costly and slow. AWIPS was a closed system and we didn't directly do any development on them but because NWS had hardware contracts with HP we had to usually purchase their equipment. The problem was that the HP workstations/servers were so expensive (especially compared to PCs) that the office I worked for couldn't afford to upgrade them - we had a lot of old, slow and just clunky HPUX systems. Several times I suggested to management that switching to Linux on Dell machines (easily available through Fed government contracts) for our internal development would save a bundle of money and mean better equipment but was always dismissed with the claim that Linux was a toy system. Lo and behind, somebody in the NWS has finally seen the light! (Although, to be fair, the NWS AWIPS developers were investigating Linux long before management ever knew what was going on ...).
IBM also has the contract for the central supercomputing facilitity.
Solutions like distributed.net where you have a variable number of available CPU cycles is bad because you NEED to be able to certain that a numeric model run will complete on time.
The second more important reason is that distributed computing with low bandwidth like distributed.net, GIMPS, Seti@Home, forecasting cannot be packaged into the same sort of small request packets and process, and return the answer, because weather forecasting is based upon computational fluid dynamics in essances, you need to share interative intermedatary results with neighbouring "cells" that could be on a different processor.
It is possible in a high bandwidth cluster a la a Beowulf cluster, but currently most forecasting uses many CPU'ed supercomputers where the memory and inter-CPU bandwidth is extremely high (>1Gb/s). Small area forecasting can be done on a SMP system.
Short range forecasting up to about 72 hours is very good actually.
Anybody else think 'not work safe' when they read the title?
Is there an Apple section at Best Buy? I guess I hadn't noticed one locally. But since I can only afford Macs capable of running OS 9, I buy my Mac software on eBay.
A Good Intro to NetBS
The NWS used to have a very inexpensive site license contract with Corel for their word processing software - it fact, it was the "official" standard for internal document exchange; you could still get MIS Word/Project/Excel etc. but it was still pretty expensive even with the government discount. Keeping track of licenses was also a problem with the Microsoft software. (Interestingly, the Corel WordPerfect software used to have versions that would run on both Windows and Unix). I don't know if using Corel is still the case or not. Budget concerns (and possible privatization) have always been a big issue at the NWS and so I'd be a bit surprised if they switched to only Microsoft on the desktop - although to be compatible with other government agencies, maybe they would have had to give in to Microsoft. Switching to Linux for workstations should have been a no-brainer.
never mind
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
The biggest thing keeping Redmond on the desktop is off the shelf software selecton.
I beg to differ.
The biggest thing keeping Redmond in the desktop is the fact that the VAST majority of desktop users (not you or me, but the USERS) don't know what an OS is, don't know there are others, don't know they can change it, don't give a damn.
And the truth is, they shouldn't.
The desktop will still be an uphill battle long after the servers and the workstations are sewn up.
This battle will be won like Stalingrad: one house at a time.
Cheers,
I've worked at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) for about 2 years now. And even when I first started Linux was the dominant force, and looked as if it had been for quite some time. All of the Software Engineers, and some of the scientists & managers have debian linux on their desktop. The rest have some form of windows.
We use linux in development, when creating large clusters to run weather models on, and when deploying systems in the field. It's the clear first choice in OS (when we have the choice).
Computers don't make mistakes. What they do, they do on purpose.
majority of desktop users don't know what an OS is
When Linux machines are sold in places other than just Walmart (retail stores) and people can come in and play with them and discover multiple desktops, multiple users, network firewalls (IP chains, not XP killing all local network file and print sharing), and the biggest badest collection of included games and applications for 1/2 the money, then they will gain attention.
I mean, how many MS users bought an apple I-Pod? How did they percieve it was the best portable music player? Linux needs the killer apps to get it noticed.
If I didn't have to use the browser that has crashed or is about to at work, I'd be using something else.
MS working very hard to make the desktop software robust is late to market. That and high prices has been the best driving force to put Linux on the desktop. They are working very hard to make it robust and have less BSOD's, but they are nor fixing the high cost.
Cost and reliability may be killer app Linux has as soon as popular stablel software is percieved to be easy to buy off the shelf, install, and use.
Quickbooks, TurboTax, Quicken, Electronic Arts, Sierra, etc. Are you listening?
The truth shall set you free!
I really wish you were right, but it's just wishful thinking.
Linux is great for the geek desktop, and for the corporate desktop. Your desktop, my desktop.
The home user just doesn't care.
That and high prices has been the best driving force to put Linux on the desktop. They are working very hard to make it robust and have less BSOD's, but they are nor fixing the high cost.
And about cost: maybe you live in a very law abiding part of the world, but the home user DOES NOT PAY for software. He just makes an unauthorized copy. $5 for any software in the street.
If MS really cracks down on piracy, then you'll be right, but for now...
Cheers,
I'll check back later, looks like we are killing your server.
I saw only Black and White before the site slowed. B&W is a great medium, one that is hard to master, you have what it takes.
Keep up the great work.
We are indirectly paying the government for the development of NWS's weather platform but yet we, as consumers as information don't have access to the same platform for viewing that information? I use the NWS web site at least 4 times a day, looking at forecast discussions, alerts and radar data. I would rather pull this data over sat or the Internet and be able to view it with the same precision as NWS's meterologists. I have never been satisfied using a web browser to look and zoom in at active data.
I participated in development of wx200d for Linux and FreeBSD (I actively developed the FreeBSD termios code) and I've used Windows based packages like Virtual Weather Station. I am dissatisfied knowing that my taxpayer dollars went to write closed source software that isn't available to me. I have a feeling that NWS contracts out to Unisys or other companies for AWIPS development and this is why it is not made available to the public. Do any inside NWS researchers or developers have any comments?
-Pat
Who gives a fuck, it's slashdot, not the damn FBI. Get your ass outside and get some sun, you pasty fuckin geek, and realize what's really important.
They may have the biggest selection of *included* games, but you won't be winning over the hearts of any gamers.
If MS really cracks down on piracy, then you'll be right, but for now..
Actualy, been too close to exactly this. It's the part of the EULA that permits them to request an audit. Follow that with the Portland Oregon Public schools being requested for this audit. I know, there was lots of egg on face from the bad publicity, but do you think smaller businesses have a chance? I'd rather not find out.
I disagree with any EULA that permits an envasion of my home or business. I simply do not have the resources to comply. I'm not willing to work for free for the BSA. Leaving this big hole in your company business plan is bad risky business. I'm not quite MS free, but I'm working on it.
The truth shall set you free!