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TiVo Goes After Sites Hosting Image Backups

Posted by timothy on from the net-loss dept.

TiVo User writes "TiVo has apparently decided to come down on sites that hosted 'image backups,' essentially tarballs of the OS for the machine, which just happens to be Linux. TiVo owners use the images to install on new, larger hard drives (increasing the recording capacity of the unit) or to recover a dead system. Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." Read on for the rest of TiVo User's comments. "The images are not used to create pirate TiVos (as a subscription service, TiVo justifiably controls access to their database tightly), so there wouldn't appear to be much harm in allowing them to be hosted. TiVo has always walked a fine line in allowing the user community to mod their units, perhaps they have finally stepped over that line, considering there are free alternatives that are less restrictive. To their credit, the legal mumbo jumbo in their cease letter is non-threatening compared to most other of this type, but it's interesting the letter draws no distinction between the portions of the software that are Linux, and therefore expressly distributable, and those that are proprietary to TiVo."

26 of 423 comments (clear)

  1. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't that illegal given the GPL?

    1. Re:Hmm by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Probably not if they didn't alter the GPL'd components of the system.

    2. Re:Hmm by kinnell · · Score: 3, Interesting
      why should they be required to provide a mirror of it?

      They aren't - the GPL doesn't specify how the code must be made available. They simply have to make the source available somehow, and are entitled to charge the cost of providing it. I imagine pointing to a mirror would be sufficient, at least in practice, if not in theory. The point is to make sure that any changes they make are also distributed to anyone who wants them.

      --
      If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
  2. TiVo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This practice does not surprise me. About 4 months ago, I purchased a TiVo refurb for $200. In those 4 months, I have sent back 3 TiVo's. My fourth recently went bad (the screen gets all pixelated). Unfortunately, the 3 month warranty only counts for 3 months from when the TiVo was first purchased! Never mind that for the duration of the warranty period they never managed to send me a working product!

    TiVo is a company with no scruples, this practice does not surprise me in the least.

    1. Re:TiVo by jaredmauch · · Score: 4, Interesting
      If you're in California, this is not the case.

      "A buyer of this product in California has the right to have this product serviced and repaired during the warranty period. The warranty period will be extended for the number of whole days that the product has been out of the buyer's hands for warranty repairs. If a defect exists during the warranty period, the warranty will not expire until the defect has been fixed. The warranty period also will be extended if the warranty repairs has not been performed due to delays caused by circumstances beyond the control of the buyer, or if the warranty repairs did not remedy the defect and the buyer notifies the manufacturer or seller of the failure of the repairs within sixty (60) days after they were completed. If after a reasonable number of attempts, the defect has not bee fixed, the buyer may return this product for a replacement or a refund subject, in either case, to deduction of a reasonable charge for use. The time extension does not affect the protection or remedies the buyer has under other laws.

  3. A question by Scholasticus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since parts of Tivo/Linux are freely redistributable under the GPL, does Tivo the company have the right to order all of these images taken down? In other words, are they legally required to say, "You have to take this part down" (their proprietary stuff), but "not these other parts" (GPL'ed stuff)?

  4. Three points by Space+cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1. If Tivo has commercially-sensitive proprietary kernel modules, they are not obliged to distribute them, and AFAIK, the Tivo filesystem code falls into this category

    2. They're bound to get a lot of people jumping on them "you must distribute", etc. See (1).

    3. They're walking a fine line. I'm setting up a Mini-ITX/Hauppage 350 PVR with MythTV as a front-end. It looks cool, and it'll have a lot more features (like: burn a DVD as well as the normal PVR stuff :-) If I can do it, a lot of others can too...

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:Three points by AKnightCowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting
      If Tivo has commercially-sensitive proprietary kernel modules, they are not obliged to distribute them, and AFAIK, the Tivo filesystem code falls into this category

      That's not what Linus said in this earlier Slashdot story from Monday. It seems pretty unbelievable that TiVo developed their "proprietary kernel modules" for whatever hardware they're using without any knowledge of the kernel internals or intention to link the resulting binary module to the kernel. IANAL of course, but from reading through Linus' postings it seems like he thinks this kind of situation would require TiVo to release the source code to any binary kernel modules as well since they are derived from the GPL'd Linux kernel. I'm not familiar with TiVos in particular, but does anyone have any proof that they've made no derivative works from userland code or the Linux kernel without releasing source code to the modifications?

      Personally I think TiVo should have to distribute the source code to their product so that people can choose whether or not they want to buy the service or would prefer to just write their own interface to guide information using XmlTV. One of the main reasons I wouldn't buy a TiVo is I don't want to be tied to one company's guide information. If they fold I am screwed and my TiVo would be useless. It almost happened to ReplayTV users.

    2. Re:Three points by 241comp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Speaking of MythTV - does anyone know if there are processes in MythTV that could benefit from OpenMosix? I mean besides just moving basic background processes off of the box and out to another processor, does anyone know if the actual encoding is something that could be successfully migrated off to another computer? What about when transcoding something (eg. changing the coding type)? I ask because I have a home network (100Mbps Ethernet) and both my Laptop and Desktop (XP2400+, XP2000+ respectively) are running OpenMosix and could often contribute their processing cycles if I use an OpenMosix patched kernel on a MythTV machine.

      --
      Full-Featured GPL Web Hosting Control Panel
    3. Re:Three points by Aardpig · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Speaking of MythTV - does anyone know if there are processes in MythTV that could benefit from OpenMosix?

      Definitely! The transcode processes would be perfect candidates for moving to another machine; they are usually quite computationally-expensive, since one is usually trying futher to compress an already-compressed stream. In my MythTV set up at home, I use a Hauppage PVR-250 to capture video in MPEG-2 format. Since the hardware does this initial encoding, the CPU is pretty much untaxed by the capture.

      However, when it comes to transcoding the MPEG-2 files into MPEG-4 (to achieve double space savings), the transcode processes chew up quite a bit of CPU time. If this job could be moved to other machines, that would be very good, since it would leave spare CPU cycles on the master for playback.

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  5. RE: by rdilallo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Tivo's business model is upsetting everyone. Advertisers get commercials skipped, shows are getting ripped and download from the web... it doesn't surprise me that they're trying to keep their "source code" in house.

    If it wasn't for someone having their image of the OS out there, I wouldn't have been able to fix my Tivo Series 2 that's less that one year old!

  6. Hardware requirements for free alternatives? by PastaAnta · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know this is slightly offtopic, but what hardware is required for the free alternatives (MythTV/Freevo) to work smoothly?

    Will a 1GHz VIA MiniITX board be able to do simultaneous encoding/playback (timeshifting) in MPEG2 or is an Athlon XP 1800+ necessary?

    What hardware do YOU use?

  7. ReplayTv by nearlygod · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe it is time for some of the Tivo faithful to move over to ReplayTV. I wouldn't give mine up. Tivo may be better of the average consumer but if for a geek, I think ReplayTV is the way to go.

    --
    The Tools Of Ignorance wanna be a tool?
    1. Re:ReplayTv by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You tell a lot, but one thing i know is bull for sure. Black borders don't much higher bitrates. All black compresses very well. It's very easy to mess up aspect ratios by playing the movie. That's why in the DiVX scene uncropped movies are good practice.

  8. One good reason they may have by wowbagger · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I follow the Tivo discusson forums, and there is one good reason Tivo may not want these images distributed.

    The images for different Tivos are slightly different - a Phillips unit is not quite the same as a Sony, a DTivo is different than a stand alone Tivo, and of course Series II Tivos are MIPS rather than PPC based.

    The common use case for these images goes something like this:

    Joe L. Usr tries to upgrade his system. He, of course, does not back up his system. He adds a drive and botches the process.

    Joe figgrs he will just download a new image and "fix" his system. So he pulls down the first image he can find, and BAM! his Tivo is now not merely broken, but toast.

    Now, the upgrade sites actually require you to tell them what hardware you have, and thus (one hopes) can insure you get the correct image.

    So Tivo MAY want to prevent folks from moron-izing their systems, but not have a problem with folks that don't have a history of doing so.

    --
    www.eFax.com are spammers
    1. Re:One good reason they may have by CrosbieSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Might Tivo also be concerned that some of the unauthorised images may have been altered in some malicious way?

  9. Re:What's the problem? by wfberg · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How is this different to somebody hosting Windows ISOs? If there is software that is copyrighted by Tivo inside the images and they haven't given the people distributing them license to do so, then they are well within their rights to stop the distribution.

    TiVo software is tied to the hardware anyway, there's no use for it other than on a TiVo. They are legally within their rights (as long as they don't go after people only distributing the GPL'ed bits), but morally it's a shakier situation. In essence they're using their copyrights to go after people who modify their kit; and they have no other legal avenue or compelling interest to go after people modifying their own, fully owned hardware. If you'll remember, people get uppity about such things (e.g. DMCA, modchips) all the time..

    And for a windows example; why do you need a separate license to put your IT departments image of windows XP on a Dell that comes with an OEM version of XP? It's the same collection of bits, just from a different source. It's a rip off.

    --
    SCO employee? Check out the bounty
  10. This is BS by gad_zuki! · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First off, the DirecTivos probably have the worst QC of any DVR on the market and I found myself shipping my first DT off and waiting *are you ready for this* 4 months for a replacement. The fan decided to stop and burned out the card reader.

    A few months later the HD broke. So I pulled it out and got the linux-based rescue CD-image from someone at the excellent tivocommunity forums. Luckily that old drive had a little life left in her and I managed to do a DD copy onto a new 80 gig drive.

    What Tivo should be doing is producing better products and stop punishing us who are trying to fix the junk they sold us. Making money off of a fauly product is ridiculous and those with the skills to be able to fix these things deserve access to the images.

    If Tivo thinks I'm going to waste another 4 months on warranty service or pay for a damn OS image that should be mostly OSS they've got another thing coming.

    Tivo, I'm afraid (because I truly love their product) will be non-existant once the Comcast and Dishnetwork DVRs start coming free with the service. You can take at look at them at gizmodo. If Tivo wants to compete they need to kiss more customer ass, not spit on existing customers with lemons.

  11. Question for Mr. Cowboy by Swanktastic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm setting up a Mini-ITX/Hauppage 350 PVR with MythTV as a front-end. It looks cool, and it'll have a lot more features (like: burn a DVD as well as the normal PVR stuff

    I was considering doing this, but the screenshots on the MythTV site are just awfully ugly. Is the interface really this klunky? It seemed to me there would be no way for my wife to operate the thing once i set it up on our living room tv. People don't want to see filepaths in the final interface, and, again, it was just extremely raw looking.

    I want to believe that MythTV is better than the screenshots would indicate....

    1. Re:Question for Mr. Cowboy by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The setup screens are a bit more techy-orientated, but the in-use ones are reasonably friendly, imho. Besides, it's themeable and modular, so feel free to improve it :-)

      Actually at the moment, I'm spending more time on the hostip stuff, though that's peaked now (as far as demands on my time go), and the PVR stuff will start to take over after Xmas.

      Simon.

      --
      Physicists get Hadrons!
  12. money by perlchild · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why TiVo has a problem with this, but allows others to sell the same images for profit is beyond me." That one's obvious, because the "for-pay" images channel parts of the profit back to TiVo somehow, either through advertising, or commission on sales, etc...

  13. Commerical skip may be a really bad thing. by swaic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As annoying as commercials may be, it could be a lot worse. If people start simply forwarding through the commercials, advertisers are going to get networks to embed them within the program/show itself.

    As much as commercials may suck, you definitely don't want a constant ticker at the bottom of your screen for coke/tampons/etc.. It could be even worse with those little ads you find on Discovery and History Channel and the rest, in the bottom right or left corner of the screen. They're usually for upcoming shows. These things keep taking up more and more room and sometimes obstruct pertinent information on the screen.

  14. the death of TiVo by The+Lynxpro · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You know, I'm really sick of reading all these predictions of the death of TiVo from various soothsayers here on Slashdot. If you doubt TiVo's staying power, I suggest you stroll down to your local Best Buy and see how many TiVos they have stacked up ready to sell for the holiday season. Best Buy is predicting large sales of TiVos; the same for the Xbox this season.

    TiVo has buzz. Yes, it is true that Dish has been hurting TiVo by giving away the inferior DishPlayer PVR as standard fare and thus DirecTV has been putting pressure on TiVo to renegotiate their contract to keep price competitive, but when people hear what a PVR is, they think TiVo. Look at the current DirecTV promo; up to 3 rooms for $38.99 per month (plus the $99 sign-up fee) and you can get the master receiver as a TiVo Series2 unit for only $5 per month more (service fee) or free if you bump up to one of the Total Choice Packages. That's a great deal. Unfortunately, DirecTV has chosen not to enable the Home Media Option for whatever reason.

    Bottom line is, TiVo will be profitable by Q1 2004 (with the increase of subscribers), both to the chagrin of lots of advertisers, the Nielsens, the chief of Turner Broadcasting, the new owners of Replay, Microsoft, and some Slashdotters who refuse to support a company that is actually putting Linux devices at the heart of entertainment centers throughout the nation...of course, without TiVo as a subject, these same posters would be ranting about the deaths of Apple or Sun instead...

    --
    "Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
  15. Figuring out a Tivo by fm6 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    So what were the symptoms? I ask because I have a Tivo gather dust, 'cause I can't afford to fix it. It worked well for about six months, then start freezing up intermittently. (Most irritating to come home and find ones favorite show not recorded.) These freezes became more and more frequent, until the system was unusable. Reinitializing the system helped, as did turning of the "record stuff I might like" feature, but in the end the system couldn't go for more than a few minutes without freezing up.

    A lot of discussions with Tivo enthusiasts and video wonks made me think it had to be a hardware problem. (I forget my chain of reasoning -- it's been over a year.) But then again it did start misbehaving right after one of those upgrades.

    There's a lot to love about a Tivo -- when it's working, it's every bit as good as its most rabid fans claim. But there's also stuff about it's that's totally ridiculous. Like:

    • The whole UI is obviously designed by not very creative people implement a checklist derived from a focus group. So it's basically pretty user-friendly, but doesn't include features any bright geek would automatically implement, like a simple procedure for dealing with overlaps, or a better feedback when it doesn't record something you told it to record.

    • The Tivo people are smart and nice, basically, but they won't ever admit that they've screwed up -- and they do screw up.

    • Every mass market product has rabid, short-tempered fans who will dump on you if you even imply that the product has flaws. But I never seen a product with so many. I mean, you even post a friendly suggestion in the Tivo suggesion forum, and a dozen angry bozos call you an idiot. Never mind trying to hold an intelligent conversation about technical problems.
  16. Re:alternatives? by SnowDog_2112 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    he does not miss the pause live tv function. I'm betting 99% of them won't.

    Don't bet too much on that. While I bought a TiVo for the recording features, I've quickly found pausing live TV to be one of the most-used features it has.

    I'm not kidding when I say that the pause and replay buttons get used to death in my house, while watching live TV. Maybe if all I watched was pre-recorded I would feel differently, but as it stands now I still watch a fair amount of live TV. Being able to pause the news while getting up to stir dinner or answer the phone, or replay a sports play right away, is a television-changing experience.

    I'm new to TiVo. I am far from a TiVo-vangelist. But it really does change it from the TV networks owning you to vice-versa.

    I thought about doing a home-brew, but in the end I wanted an appliance I could use, not another hobby I don't have time to keep up with :).

    --
    Not representing or approved by my company or anybody else.
  17. Compromise by _Brazil_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There should be a compromise. The backup images should be of only the old backups, so then it would force them to start and download the software upgrades from Tivo directly... Or better, document what is needed for a bare backup, and have it standard to download the rest directly from Tivo...

    Then Tivo would have all there stats on who is doing what, then they could see how they should be treating thier market. Inpaticular, the market of the Tivo Hackers... Maybe charge 2$ for more than 3 backup downloads, if they have too. Just something minor.

    I just whish there was some DirecTv PCI card, then I would love MythTV. I want to to keep it all digital, in and out... ;) Maybe if you a HDTV reciver w/ a firewire connector; but then you probably wouldn't be allowed to record.