Building A Low-Budget TiVo Substitute?

thepuma writes "Since I'm cheap, and don't want to pay monthly fees to Tivo, I am researching building my own low-budget Personal Video Recorder and player. Free software options include Freevo and MythTV. Hardware options are the main cost factor. How would you go about building the perfect low-budget PVR?" We've looked at similar questions before, but the guts of such a system (both hardware and software) have been improving -- MythTV, for instance, now supports Hauppauge's PVR-350 card. How would you build a system like this now?

Comments

Don't do it for cost

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't try to use one of these projects because you think it will be cheaper.

If you want to do it because you think there are other benefits, or because you like to tinker, go right ahead.

You will spend more than the cost of a Tivo plus lifetime service by the time you are done, though.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[Fallen Kell]

I agree. Personally, I did it because I wanted to be able to burn DVD's of what I watch/record. Now when you take that into consideration (and the fact that a stand-alone DVD burner/recorder is still about $800), and add in the fact that I have TiVo abilities as well (with over 500 gigs of storage space), I feel that my setup more then surpasses the abilities that I could get with a consumer product. I also have the added bonus of it being a kicking system for gaming and video editing as well. Now grant it I paid about $2500 in total (6 months ago), but once you take into account the fact that it would be $600 for the TiVo parts (with only 1/3 the hard drive space) and the $800 for it being able to produce DVD's of TV shows, there is more then 1/2 the costs right there. The bonuses of it also being able to then edit the video as well as do heavy gaming more then makes up for the rest of the costs.

You can probably make a scalled down version for $800 - $1000 to do capture and burning to DVD's now (especially with DVD burners being only $100 now as opposed to the $300 when I built mine).

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

40 Hour TiVo w/DirecTV reciever. Brand new $99

Lifetime TiVo service $299

Total $398... And you don't have to do any work.

Though I don't know why you would buy lifetime service instead of paying the $4/month for service through DirecTV. You're probably going to upgrade in less than 6 years.

Re:Don't do it for cost

[ivan256]

TiVo software upgrades are free. Hardware upgrades are what you pay for.

Also, don't expect a hard drive that's constantly writing to last forever.

A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Hmm... PC $600 + about a month configuring it to work as a PVR.
Tivo + Lifetime sub $300-$400

I know which I'd go for...

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Minimum spec on a PVR is a lot more than a celeron.

For instance, for the SageTV thing mentioned earlier they state:

MPEG 2 capable receiver (the ones listed on sagetv are analogue ones... really you need one that can do satellite or at least DVB) - minimum $100. To be the same quality as Tivo you'd need one that's RGB in and oh dear they don't exist.
PIII-600 256M - $100ish depending on where you get it.
Video card with TV Out - $50
Big hard drive - at least 120GB - $100

That's $350 *before* you've put in the cost of the rest of the PC... Shuttle cases for example are $100 a throw.

Then there's the noise factor. Tivos are whisper quiet... To make a PC that quiet wou can easily add another $100 onto the base price.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[jjshoe]

half hour setup time (RTFM) $0
High quality PVR card $200
PC $0

benefits of learning? priceless.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ivanmarsh]

Until Tivo goes out of business.

Plus the cost of a phone line which I currently don't have or need in my house.
Plus god knows what kind of statistics they're grabbing from you.
Plus a complete lack of expansion.

Give a man a Tivo and he watches for a day.
Build a man an open source PVR and he watches for a lifetime.

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[ClioCJS]

Oh no! Don't let the statistics get me!

(puts on tin foil hat)

Re:A cheapskate and you want to use a PC?

[Tony Hoyle]

Half hour?

Just getting the dependencies right for MythTV (most of which are *not* documented) took about half a day.

Then there's the kernel patches for the card... at least two different ones, none of which compiled cleanly and had to be manually hacked.

For the price of your 'high quality' card you could have bought a Tivo, you know... they sell for half that.

Learning is irrelevant - the OP was trying to save money, not learn.

buy a fucking tivo

[Anonymous Coward]

slashbot readers like to say they support open source, want linux to rule the world, etc, but then when a company does use linux for a cool, innovative device, it's too much money, wah wah wah.

Get a job or something.

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[An Onerous Coward]

"Funny," perhaps. But "insightful?" I've wiped more insightful commentary from the bottom of my shoe.

Now, if "How can I pirate TiVo's service to use on my non-TiVo box without paying for it, I could see where this comment would be appropriate. But just because TiVo is Linux-based, anyone who looks for another solution is somehow a hypocrite?

For shame, Mr. Coward, for shame. And you wonder why mom always liked me best?

The way I see it, TiVo has three components: The hardware, the software, and the subscriber information stream. The hardware is basically a small computer with a big hard drive, and its primary advantage over a beige box is a quality I like to call "Media center friendliness." Oh, and it comes with a remote rather than a cron daemon.

The software consists of the Linux kernel and some schnazzy proprietary interface software. The latter is what adds value to the product for most users.

The subscription information is the final piece of the whole TiVo experience, because it gives the box the ability to find stuff for you even when you didn't know it was on, and make recommendations.

So let's get this straight: TiVo provides a certain experience, but not everyone wants precisely that experience. There are plenty of reasons someone might want to build a computer with some of the capabilities of a TiVo. For example, they might want the PVR capabilities but not the features that rely on the subscription stream. Or they may want to be able to back up shows onto DVD, or rip DVDs to the box, or use the box as an all-in-one PVR/DVD player/router/firewall/webserver/gaming platform, just so that they can turn the whole thing into a flaming pile of silicon by getting it Slashdotted while it's trying to record "The Simpsons."

That's what I'd do, anyways.

Re:buy a fucking tivo

[CvD]

Excuse me, but not everyone lives in a country where TiVo is offered. Here in the Netherlands, a DIY box is your only option (there's a really expensive box from Nokia, I think; underpowered, not as configgable). So yeah... its good to have these discussions every once in a while... see what other people are doing to make their own PVRs and their experiences with these.

Re:I'd just buy one

[jsonic]

You also don't need to buy a subscription when buying a tivo. You can purchase just the hardware if you want. Of course not having the program listings and scheduling features kinda defeats the main benefit of PVRs.

To be really useful, a homemade pvr has to solve the problem of obtaining program listings.

Re:I'd just buy one

[aborchers]

I'd just buy a Tivo because it's easier.

If you, and the people who think this is insightful, can't see the difference between a Tivo (subscription required, arbitrary set of limitations decided on by the company) and a homemade PVR with any media playback/record capability you can put into a PC, then you've certainly made a wise choice. It's also easier to buy a standalone CD-copier than to deal with a CD-burner and various software, but it's not the same!

Now maybe people with something substantial to add to the discussion of homemade PVRs can post...

Upfront Cost is Hard to Beat

[mprinkey]

A cheap Duron, hard drive, case, TV-out capable video card, and TV card is going to probably cost more than a stand-alone Tivo, so you are only saving on the "backend." I like the progress that I have seen in MythTV and Freevo, especially the integrated features like emulators and such. That is the appeal for me to build these type of solutions, not price.

FWIW, I am a DirecTV subscriber and the DirecTivo gives you a lot of functionality that you just can't easily replicate. It stores full quality video from the satellite feed on the hard drive. It also allows you to record two shows at the same time. That makes it well worth the price. Of course, mine has a 120 GB hard drive hacked in to give over 100 hours of storage.

Now I just need to figure out how copy the video from the Tivo. I can ftp and telnet into the system, but I haven't investigated the state of the extraction software lately. One of those projects I need to get to...

Re:I'd just buy one

[dissy]

> You also don't need to buy a subscription when buying a tivo. You can purchase
> just the hardware if you want. Of course not having the program listings and
> scheduling features kinda defeats the main benefit of PVRs.

If you plunk down $300 for the hardware, may as well plunk down the $250 for a lifetime subscription as well.

Just pretend the hardware costs $550, but in this way you will have full guide listings and no monthly fee.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[Cromac]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

Compared to a Tivo: You have to switch tapes They only hold 8 hours You have to rewind them It's a pain to find that 30 min show in the middle of the tape They're louder (at least mine is) when FF and Rewinding Tivo has automatic scheduling

I'm sure there are other advantages, those are just off the top of my head.

Tapes have the advantage of being portable and everywhere so you can take what you recorded to your buddies house, but overall Tivo or some other similar DVR blows the VCR away.

Not really cost effective...

[mjh]

I can see getting a lot of geek satisfaction out of building one of these things, but to use it as a day-in/day-out DVR, I don't think it makes a lot of financial sense. First thing is that it's expensive. A TiVo with a lifetime subscription costs about $500. The WinTV-PVR 350 card alone is most of the cost of the TiVo hardware. I have yet to see an example of building one of these things for that low of a price.

Second, if you've got DirecTV, then there's no DVR that you can build that's going to do as good of a job of capturing the signal as the DirecTV DVR w/TiVo (DTiVo). The DTiVo simply copies the already MPEG encoded stream that DirecTV sends. Thus the DTiVo doesn't need an expensive (and relatively low quality) hardware MPEG encoder. Which means that the DTiVo can be found for serious cheap, sometimes even for free. Assuming that a homebrew DVR costs about $800 to build, you could get a free DTiVo and put the $800 towards 13 yrs 4 mos worth of monthly fees.

Still it sounds like a fun project. But it seems like you'd be paying for the entertainment of putting it together. Not for the low cost of the DVR.

Re:how much?

[AKAImBatman]

Simple math, but how much of the 300 watts is used for an idling PC

There's no way a PC without a monitor is going to draw 300 Watts unless it's a specialty super-computer. (i.e. Runs at 100% CPU power at all times, while making use of heavy draw hardware such as GPU rendering.)

150 Watts is a much better average. 24 hours a day, with ~30 days in a month, at 150 watts gives:

24*30*150 = 108,000 Watt-Hours = 108 Kilowatt-Hours

Look up what you're paying per KW hour and multiply that by 108. For example, 10 cents per KWH gives you a monthly cost of $10.80.

Re:Sage TV

[TakenName]

Why on earth do you have that horribly offensive link in your sig? I mean honestly, that is just disgusting. I am sorry, I'm no prude, but I feel sick.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjh]

I'm sure there are other advantages, those are just off the top of my head.

One of the big ones that most people don't mention is that with a TiVo you can watch your show from the beginning 15 minutes after it starts. With a VCR, even if you've managed to get it programmed the way you want it, and you've always got a tape it, if you get home 5 mins after your favorite program starts, you have wait until it's over until you can see the beginning. With a TiVo you just start watching.

Also TiVo records by show title and guide information instead of by timeslot. So NBC decides to rearrange Wednesday night (for whatever reason) you'll still get West Wing recorded.

Comparing a TiVo to a VCR is like comparing a automobile to a tricycle. Yes they're both methods of transportation but one is dramatically more convenient.

Via Epia-M board (like SolarPC), with Reservations

[skipintro]

I've built a MythTV box, and although I am happy with what I built, the next time around I would build something similar to the SolarPVR:
http://www.solarpc.com/20.htm

It has:

• Via Epia-M mother board -- This is the best mother board for building a Linux PVR because it is small, cheap, and when combined with Via's low powered processor can run completely fanless due to its low power consumption. Noise and size are more important than you'd think.
  
• PVR-250 (or 350) -- Because the Via Epia motheboard includes a onboard mpeg decoder you don't really nead the PVR-350 for mpeg decoding, but the few extra dolars for the 350 couldn't hurt. (If you get a regular motherboard with a 2+ Ghz processor you can make due with a regular bttv based software encoding card, but the PVR-250/350 cards are really cool and the relatively stable ivtv drivers seem to be working great on my machine). Plus the remote they come with works great.
  
• 120+ Gig hardrive (Wester Digital 8mb buffer) For the hardrive, you basically want something big, especially if your going to use the kickass PVR250/350 card which defaults to DVD quality encoding. You can lower the encoding bitrate on the 350/250, but once you get used the higher quality you'll find it is well worth the space. At this highest bitrate level they take up about 3.7 Gigs for an hour. So 120 Gig machine will give you about 30 hours. (I have actually set mine to record at a lower bitrate, so they take about 2.2 Gigs per hour. And the quality is still way better than what you'd get at maximum quality on a crapy little Tivo).
  
• A plain black aluminum case -- because it will look more like a Tivo. You won't have to explain to hot chicks why you have a stupid looking plastic putty-toned computer sitting next to your TV.
  

Those are the bare neccesities if your just going to be cheap. I am cheap/poor too, so that is all I have. Someday I'll get a nice DVD burner so I can archive stuff I might want to see again somday. I also want a wireless keybaord.

For further info check out the PVR Hardware Database:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-view_art icles.php

They have a page with some nice installation guides:
http://pvrhw.goldfish.org/tiki-page.php?p ageName=i nstall_guides

As you can see I am all for building a MythTV box, but having built one, I have to warn you that the software isn't perfect yet. It really kicks Tivo's ass in terms of functionality (I love the MythWeb interface, and you can set it too completely cut out commercials, which it does surprisingly accurately), but it still can be a little buggy sometimes and should only be used by people who like to tinker.

Re:Splurge on the hardware!

[Bravid98]

I'm working on a MythTV box at the moment and I came across this site: http://www.nexusuk.org/projects/mythbayes/index.ph p

It looks like they are using a bayesian filter to suggest and record similar programs. This would pretty much put MythTV on par with tivo.

The cheap option is now to buy a real one

[dspyder]

I've always maintained that buying a real Tivo was always the cheaper option, especially if you count the costs of your time involved. Now, even not counting those costs the commercial product is much cheaper! If "cheap" is really what you want (as it's listed in your request) then you really need to look at it closely.

With a new account (1 year contract) at DirecTV or Dish you can get a free or cheap PVR included... and many other benefits (3 rooms, free installation, etc. etc.). Certain plans (Platinum level or some shiiiiii) even give you the PVR subscription fee included (or included in your receiver mirroring fee).

I'm not saying you shouldn't try building one yourself, but the argument was usually "I could build one cheaper with parts I have lying around" however most people then went out and spent $75-$100 on a brand new capture card. With subsidized

MythTV has definitely progressed along the years, but it's still not 100% reliable (what open-source anything ever is truly complete, tested, and waranteed). That being said, it definitely has some other cool "Media" functions that I really would like in my family room. Of course, I'm not willing to live with the ugly beige box and noise (before you say silent processors and slimline cases, add those costs to your initial argument).

If I truly had the hardware lying around (I don't) and I truly wanted a project not just the end Tivo functionality (I don't) and I was willing to put up with all the tinkering and annoyances required (I might be, wife definitely isn't) then I would consider doing it.

--Darren

Re:I'd just buy one

[pdhenry]

>> not so good for the geek who has to have the latest tech.
But a used TiVo with an intact lifetime subscription should be worth at least $100-150 more on the secondary market than one without, shouldn't it?
It was always my understanding that the lifetime subscription was transferrable (since, as you point out, it's for the life of the unit).

Hardware MPEG-2 if you want to record TV or DVDs

[Rick Richardson]

If you have any intent on building up a legal and huge collection of movies by capturing them off of cable TV, and you want to be able to play those movies on a standard consumer DVD player, then you must get a hardware MPEG-2 encoder.

The general rule about software MPEG-2 encoders is this: quality, low-CPU, realtime; pick any two.

If you don't care about being able record to DVD, and/or you want to record to DiVX and envision a house where all of your DVD players are DiVX-capable, then a $30 stereo tuner card will suffice for now.

I have two AverTV Stereo cards that are going up on eBay, because I decided that I really do want to record good quality MPEG-2 to DVD. I need to be able to hand my wife/kids a DVD of the favorite shows that she missed because I made them leave the house. I will be getting a PVR-250 like everybody else.

Note also that this advice applies to Windows people just as much as it does for Linux people. There are no software, high-quality, realtime MPEG-2 coders that don't require an overclocked cryogenically cooled CPU, regardless of what OS you run.

-Rick

1 year..

[msimm]

no trouble in North America with MythTV (xmltv). I did have to upgrade it a couple of times..

urpmi xmltv

Not much trouble and the flipside is I've got a full featured PC plugged into my HDTV (sure was nice watching those Quicktime Matrix previews on a big screen).

Re:Just buy a vcr

[mjallison]

For a serious time shifter (or at least me) the VCR has become a liability. I capture many shows on a regular basis (my wife does too) and the VCR tapes pile up next to the TV until we have time to watch them. Becauswe of work, family, etc. it may be quite some time before we get around to "clearing tape".
To make matters worse, sometimes our shows get intermingled (her shows on the same tape as my shows) and we don't clear them at the same time. Now we have lots of tapes (~12) with some shows watched and some unwatched. Performing garbage collection on a linear access medium isn't something I enjoy.
I do enjoy tinkering though, it's been fun putting this together. Having my pvr on my house-net will be really nice.

Re:Just buy a vcr

[UnknowingFool]

Seriously, what's wrong with a VCR? You can even record the tapes digitally

Problems with a VCR:
1) Management. If you've recorded a season's worth of show, you have to make sure that they are all recorded in order with no repeats. Rewinding and forwarding is a pain in the butt. Since tapes are only 8 hours, you have to manage the tapes as well as the content.
2) Sharing. You can't watch a recorded show on your computer in the bedroom when your spouse is using the TV in the living room. Most of these machines can be networked so that you can at least transfer files.
3) VCRs cannot function as DVD or media centers

Um..

[msimm]

I'd support an open project that left most of the control in my hands, but I understand Tivo nixed the commercial skip. Does Tivo have user developed plugins or any additional features being added by the community?

Re:remember the old phrase...

[laird]

Not all time is billable. Putting together a MythTV is _fun_, not _work_. If you can build one for $400, and assemble it in your spare time for fun, it only cost $400. If you build MythTV's to sell for a living, I guess it's fair including your time as a cost... :-)

Re:remember the old phrase...

[Tombstone-f]

Except for the fact that you will most likely be doing this in your free time when you would otherwise not be working. You would lose time when you could be relaxing or spending time with other people, but not money.

Re:DirecTivo

[javaxman]

The only bad part of DirecTV is their smartcard litigation. Aside from that, DirecTV is easily the best pay TV service available in the US, and is about to get better for me when my DirecTivo is installed next week.

A word of warning- apparently DirecTV didn't realize how popular this promotion would be. I was on a waiting list for a couple of weeks before they called me back to let me know I could actually buy the thing.

DO NOT buy a DirecTivo at some retailer, at least not without checking out what is involved in installation, especially in multi-room setups ( you need a 'multiswitch', more lines of cable than you think, etc ). You'll get a better deal from DirecTV anyway, especiallly if you're a new customer.

There are also a couple of weird downsides to DirecTivo-
1) you can't buy the Tivo "Home Media Option", which 'lets' you stream tunes and slideshows from your computer to your Tivo
2) I don't know that you can get a lifetime subscription... but the monthly fee is less!

both of these 'downsides' are things which might change, and I can live with. Really, I just want Tivo so my wife can watch her "reality" shows _after_ dinner...

after a month?

[theonetruekeebler]

I know which I'd go for...

And at the end of a month, he will probably know a thing or two about managing video streams, caching, fs tuning, how TiVo works in the first place, and probably a thing or two about building small databases with large BLOBs attached, and maybe start figuring out how to network the FreeVo together with the rest of his LAN so he can watch CNN from his laptop on the porch.

At the end of the same month, however, one who just buys a TiVo will probably know how to watch television.

Whatever happened to taking on a challenge just because it's there?

Digital Satellite and Cable recording? Anyone???

[i)ave]

Is anyone else tired of hearing about people building PVRs and HTPCs that have no ability to record digital cable/setellite feeds? How many high-tech home-theater gurus do you know who only subscribe to basic cable. Until someone figures out a reasonable way to get digital Satellite and Cable (I'm NOT talking about terrestrial HDTV) onto a hard-drive, building a personal PVR seems like a patience-stretching, expensive, excersize in pointlessness. An Uber-recorder needs to have built-in Cable/Satellite decoding if it's going to be of any use to someone who has 500 channels. Honestly, if all you've got is standard basic cable, you might as well save your time and money you'd spend on a PVR and go get Digital Cable for a couple years. Maybe you won't be able to record anything, but at least you'll always have something to watch.