Money Problems May Derail First U.S. MagLev Train

PSaltyDS writes "The Virginian Pilot is reporting on the trials and tribulations of what was supposed to be the first MagLev train in regular use in the U.S. The MagLev Project was to cover a portion of the Old Dominion University campus, and start service in 2002, but after $14 million spent, it has yet to carry a single passenger. In the article, several engineering types seem to say the same thing, something like 'A great idea that is just too hard to do without an unlimited budget.' Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy like the personal flying car?"

Comments

If I'm Not Mistaken

[FractusMan]

Don't the Japanese already have one? What do the Japanese have that the US does not, to allow them to create a MagLev?

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[mcpkaaos]

An economy.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[MoonFog]

They do, check out this link.
The japanese definately have the economy to do this, like has been mentioned. From the page:
A landmark for Maglev occurred in 1990 when it gained the status of a nationally-funded project.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[Fnkmaster]

Very high population density and relatively small distance between urban centers combined with a willingness to throw away old conventions to make way for progress?

For example, here in the Northeast, the Boston-New York-Washington DC corridor would be a prime target for a Maglev train - the passenger volume is there, the airports are a huge hassle with congestion, weather problems in the winter, and massive traffic issues (driving to Logan in Boston or JFK in New York - ugh). Instead, we have legislation in Connecticut that prevents trains from going faster than 75 miles per hour for "safety reasons", so Amtrak blows a couple billion dollars on the sleek looking "Acela" trains, which go barely faster than the normal old fashion trains running the express routes. You shave about 30-40 minutes off of your travel time Boston to New York, and pay 3 times as much.

So instead they've had to market it as business class travel and sell it based on amenities instead of speed. Pure insanity. What we need is legislation and engineering working together to get a real high-speed train system down this heavy traffic corridor in place as a proof of concept AND proof of economical viability, so the price per mile can come down enough to build similar capability for longer runs.

Maglev or no, there's no technical reason that I'm aware of that high speed trains aren't running this corridor, just a lack of creative problem solving effort and cooperation between government and industry to get the damned thing built.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[Rasta Prefect]

An economy.

You do realize the Japanese Economy has been in the crapper for about the last 10 years or so, right?

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[SuperMo0]

Because they've been building useless things like MagLev trains.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[benmcgruer]

While I'm not familiar with the demographics of the trial area in the States, the Japanese has three major points which allow them to utilize high-cost public transport effectively.

1) V. High Population Density. This allows you build public transportation routes at a low distance (cost) per passenger.

2) Public Transport Culture. They are used to public transport as a reliable, effective and convenient method of travel. As in Australia, the US still relies a personal cars as the most convenient method of travel.

3) There's already huge overhead on materials and other expenses in Japan, such that the cost of additional technology becomes less significant. This is the same reason why your mobile phone has so many features, while you're lucky if your landline phone has caller id.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[Neon Spiral Injector]

But it is a Japanese crapper, it plays music and has a motorised seat.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[dhovis]

One of the reasons that MagLev trains have not hit been deployed in anything other than demontstration trials is the complexity of the control systems. The least expensive type to build is just a row of electromagnets which are timed to attract and then repell similar magnets on the trains. The timing of these magnetic pulses has to be extremely precise, especially when the trains are traveling at over 300km/hr! If just one electromagnet attracts when it should be repelling, the train will crash. Superconductors don't have that problem, but you do have to seriously shield the passenger compartment from the magnetic fields, which adds a lot of weight.

One alternative I've seen to this is a passive maglev system which uses passive copper coils on the track and "hallbach" magnets on the train. The hallbach magnets create a sinusoidal magnetic field, and as the train moves over the passive coils, the coils produce a repulsive field. As long as the train is moving fast enough, it will rise up off the tracks. If the propulsion fails, the train will just slow down until it lands back on the tracks. No complex control system needed. Also, the hallbach magnets have the unusual property that the magnetic field is only on one side of the magnet, so you need less shielding for the passenger compartment.

There is a real system based on this. It is called Inductrak. It was developed at Lawrence Livermore National Lab. The article I linked to was kind of old, so I don't know if they've made any progress lately.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[kryonD]

Hmmm...me thinks this guy has never been to Japan.

Nobody!, and I mean nobody spends money like the Japanese. Primarily from aspects of their culture such as usually holding parties in restaurants rather than the home like western countries, the sheer number of occasions where gift giving is appropriate, and no less than a dozen major festivals held each year. Japanese economy problems are mainly stemming from corruption in the major banks that is still being cleaned up and an overly inflated cost of living that drives down tourism.

The reason why Japan is in the lead for a useful Maglev, is because they already have a society built around the reliable usage of trains. I've been to Tokyo at least 15 times and I couldn't even imagine trying to get around that city without trains. The same deal applies to cross country travel. The shinkansen (bullet train) is at least 5 times faster than driving a car and slightly cheaper than flying. Everybody uses them. In the US, I'd bet money that 9 out of 10 average Americans couldn't even guess at the cost of a train ride from New York to D.C. The reason why is because most Americans first learn of passenger travel on a train when they see than Amtrack has derailed once again and dozens of people are dead or in the hospital. Plus in most major cities, I'll cite L.A. and Dallas for examples having been to both, you'll never hear someone respond to a complaint on the terrible traffick jams by saying, "yeah, but you can just take the train/subway, it's faster anyways." I'm 29 and most of my friends in Tokyo don't even own cars....they don't feel the need to.

America is fighting a cultural battle on this one. Gas is dirt cheap compared to just about anywhere else in the world and it's just more convenient for every average joe to have a car and drive everywhere. Until this changes, there's not going to be a lot of interest in riding a new high speed, low drag, sexy maglev. Well, other than the geek in all of us wanting to do it once so we can say we did.

Re:If I'm Not Mistaken

[mikerich]

Yes, that's right. As of now, it's cheaper to fly from NY to Boston thank to take the train.

There's a reason for that... airline fuel is not taxed, nor are ticket sales (at least in Europe), nor are airline purchases, airport construction is subsidised by government funding as are the links to connect them to the rest of the transport system.

If trains could get the same tax breaks as the airline industry has been pigging on for the last sixty years things might be different.

Best wishes,
Mike.

Trains are obsolete

[TiMac]

I don't care if they are old-fashioned, MagLev, or what. Just like busses, trains are having issues because no one wants to use them. Both Greyhound and Amtrak are unpopular forms of transportation now--no coincidence.

The only trains that survive are local trains (like the BART) and subways really...but for those purposes there is no reason to have a MagLev system--it is too costly to implement for such a small project. magLev would be great long distance, but again, planes are still more popular and don't take up real estate on the ground.

Trains, planes, and automobiles...the first of the bunch is just dropping out of the equation here in America.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[MrLint]

Well I know from Amtrak as i rode it for 4 years while dating my wife. And the problem is not trains themselves.. Amtrak problem is Amtrak. the NEC (north east corridor) Is extremely busy and would be close to self sustaining, but any money it makes is used to subsidize the running of otherwise dead rail lines elsewhere. In NYS the train from NY to albany, montreal, and buffalo are nearly always full. So the passengers are there.

But when you get an organization like amtrak, that launches a supposedly 'high speed' service (acela) that is only 15 minutes faster than the normal train on the same route and costs you twice as much to ride, and cost several millions to build, and was late on its maiden voyage (i think it even broke down). Well This is not a problem with train being obsolete, its a problem with the operator, the operator in this case is Amtrak.

I have about a millions seething hate stories about Amtrak. remind me to tell you one some time.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[Fnkmaster]

Agreed 100% on Amtrak. I think the problem is a combination of Amtrak being Amtrak, and the lack of governmental support for Amtrak. The fucking Acela is capable of operating at 125+ MPH, but the state of Connecticut apparently limits its speed legally to 75 MPH. Mind you, this is also Amtrak's fault for not working together with government to sort all this shit out and come up with a technically AND legally sound solution before blowing billions in government subsidized and private capital on stupid projects like this.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[Tyketto]

This is a bit out of context. It is not because no-one wants to use them, but a clash of availability versus American culture and lifestyle. For the past 50 years, automobiles have been the core of transportation for Americans, from teenagers on up. But that does not speak the same for the rest of the world.

In my time in Australia, I was WELL introduced to their mass transit systems, in both Sydney and Melbourne. For both cities, Trains, as well as Trams and buses, are their main modes (yes, MAIN) modes of transportation. Yes, people have cars there, but more than 100 million kilometers were travelled by train in 2002 alone; the bulk of it being in New South Wales, and Victoria (44 million and 32 million, respectively) alone.

Trains are very much alive, and will be for a very long time. It is just the United States, which has lacked in picking up on a trend that transports hundreds of thousands of people, in favour of polluting the air with carbon monoxide gases from car exhaust.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[coyote-san]

High speed trains can be faster than flights for short hops.

The reason is the "tails" on your trip. Airports are usually further out from the core city than train depots so you might have an extra 10-15 minutes of travel time on each tail just to get to/from the airport. Then there's delays while the plane taxis to/from one of the few operating runways instead of navigating through the switchyard - add another 10 minutes. And the time to get through security. And an extra 30 minutes (minimum) you want in case there's a backup in security, or the train to/from the concourses is running slow, etc.

When you're finally in the air on a short hop, you might not even spend any time cruising at 500 knots. If you listen to the ATC chatter you'll know that it takes 50-100 miles to climb up to cruising altitude, and the same to descend to the airport. So if your hop is under 200 miles you might not get to cruising altitude, and anything under 400 miles may spend less time cruising than passing through the inverted wedding cake.

Flights clearly win if you're traveling more than a 1000 miles or there's not a direct ground route (e.g., because of large bodies of water or mountains), but there's a strong argument for grounding all flights under 150-200 miles. They clutter the airways and ATC system and aren't that much faster than ground transportation that doesn't make frequent stops. The ATC factor is so bad that som airlines have requested permission to fly below the normal jetways - it's far less fuel efficient and they can't travel as fast, but they don't have delays waiting for available spots in the crowded flight levels.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[SurgeonGeneral]

I don't care if they are old-fashioned, MagLev, or what. Just like busses, trains are having issues because no one wants to use them. Both Greyhound and Amtrak are unpopular forms of transportation now--no coincidence.

Here in Canada, buses and trains are the only mode of transportation within provinces (which are very large) unless you own a car (and want to pay 50-100 dollars in gas... which is the price of a bus ticket) or can pay enourmous fees for the airplane. They are VERY popular, and wont be losing any popularity as long as people still want to see their friends and families.

To cross the country the only viable method of transportation is airplane. Maglev could offer a great alternative to the 6 hour, 800 dollar flight from Toronto to Vancouver. Your shallow argument against using trains for long distance (magLev would be great long distance, but again, planes are still more popular and don't take up real estate on the ground.) is downright stupid. In case you are unaware of your own history and geography, trains have been around for 200 years, and the cross-country tracks that they built for them still exist. Personally I'll take a high speed train over a high-priced plane any day of the week, and the lack of high-speed cross-country trains more than accounts for the popularity of the only other practical mode of cross-country transportation.

But I guess you've never been to Europe, or travelled Asia either. In those densely populated areas trains are by far the best way to travel. Jumping on the Chunnel train is far easier than getting to Heathrow three hours early so the security check can lose your baggage. With the chunnel train someone can live in London and go to work in Calais or Paris. Now just imagine if cross-country, or even inter-province (or inter-state) travel within North America was that cost-effective and convinient. A tourist to Europe will always get a Train pass unless they are not planning on leaving the city they start in. There is literally no other practical way for a tourist to travel within Europe. Too bad the world's biggest industry (tourism) did not cross your mind when you were evaluating trains.

Re:Trains are obsolete

[smchris]

Actually, I've done San Fran to Minneapolis, Minneapolis to Baltimore (twice) and about 14 trips Minneapolis to Chicago by Amtrak and it seemed like most seats were full. And most of the trips were pleasant experiences. A restaurant, sightseeing car and a sleeper is my way to see the U.S. pass by. And I like _walking_ to a hotel in the center of downtown instead if being stuck in some butt-ugly hotel park surrounding the airport.

Before you knock Amtrak outside the NW corridor, you know what? THEY DON'T OWN THE TRACKS!! High speed trains -- you've got to be kidding. The _track_ is so bad between Minneapolis and Chicago, several times we've gone about 25 mph for stretches of miles at a time. Woo Hoo! We ain't becomin' no 3rd world country.

Stupidity is...

[FFFish]

...ignoring the existing half-dozen working solutions in preference for pissing millions of dollars on a homebrew solution.

Even more stupid is insisting on a maglev solution when there are equally fast and substantially less-expensive traditional solutions, aka the French and Japanese bullet trains. One of those puppies just broke the 500kmh barrier with passengers.

Re:Stupidity is...

[Jordy]

There are significant differences between the *operating* speed of a MagLev and of a conventional train.

A MagLev can run at 581 kph as its top speed and its intended operating speed is 500 kph. This is partly because of its acceleration rate and partly due to the infrastructure. It is also much much quieter allowing it to be run closer to commercial/residential buildings.

The TGV has the current top record for a conventional train at a speed of 515 kph. However, it operates at a max of 220 kph. The JR Central line in Japan operates at about 270 kph.

Now, I'm not sayinng that running a short track MagLev was the brightest thing in the world, but for a long run (San Francisco to LA for instance), it can easily outpace a plane after you take into account the thirty minutes you have to wait to get on and off.

Plus, no one is going to crash a MagLev into a building.

Is a maglev train an impractical fantasy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, yes it is. Someone better go tell the Japanese that their train doesn't exist...

Amtrak NEC goes 120mph

[Anonymous Coward]

Your comments are indeed appropriate for the NYC to Boston segment, but between Trenton and Newark, NJ, the Amtrak caps out at around 120mph. 10% of Pennsylvania's easternmost county, Bucks, commutes to the NYC metro area, thanks in large part to Amtrak. Not to mention the cost of living.. I always tell people I pay a near-rural cost of living with a midtown salary.

You will never ever see the entire DC-to-Boston corridor converted to maglev because the last leg of the rail-based system has a lower speed limit. That's just ridiculous.. try taking the train to Philly one day and you'll see what the rest of us have been enjoying for decades.

A really stupid project from the beginning

[Animats]

Realize how lame a system this is even if it works. It's one car, on a single track, going back and forth over 0.8 mile, in a straight line, at a top speed of 40MPH, on a college campus. Why bother? Japanese, Chinese, German, and British maglevs of greater length and higher speed have already been built.

The Birmingham airport maglev (1984-1995) was more ambitious. And it was so expensive to maintain that it was replaced with a cable-driven system.

The only maglev system being proposed that makes any economic sense is the link from Orlando Airport to Disney World. Disney wants to build that so that their customers bypass all other attractions and go directly to Disney property.

Maglev Good!. This project, Really Bad.

[strangedays]

Ok, so I forced myself to read the entire article, not easy, its a collection of confused finger pointing, and poor journalistic sound bites, sole intent to fill a news article. Zero Meaningful Content..

To summarize :
They are concerned about how the project was managed.
Concerned that the investment may not get repaid.
There are problems with the control system (not the magnetic levittation system itself note)
The assets are apparently a series of patents. Thats odd really, considering this is a tewenty year old technology.
The board and the university may have screwed up, they didn't put appropriate bonds in place, so now they are all nervous as to who gets blamed.
A board member now blames the technology, saying that others (Japan) could not make it work. This is incorrect.
Another guy refused to invest because of problems with the company (not the technology).
Maglev trains are described as "floats on a cushion of air". Duh. Fine journalism.
FRA has issued a stop work order, as usual asleep at the wheel. Way way way too late IMHO.

Overall, they all completely mismanaged this, tried to invent new stuff that doesn't work, and now need another two million dollar handout to get out of the hole they dug for us, the victim taxpayers.

Oh, and in the process they tarnish the reputation of a transportation technology we actually need.

Thanks for nothing ODU and FRA guys. Do us a favor, go fire yourselves.

China has a commercial maglev.

[Hobbyspacer]

What about the Chinese Transrapid maglev (built by a German company) now running on a 30km track between downtown Shanghai and its airport.

Maglev reality..

[mumblestheclown]

here are some realities of maglev:

• the japanese are doing it right. slow, methodical, engineering-sensible development will probably result in a chuo-shinkansen maglev in 10-15 years at the longest and possibly in as little as 5-10 years. See here for a gentle introduction.
• the chinese are building a maglev shanghai-beijing. every engineer or knowledgable person i have ever spoken to has said that this was a rushed through engineering abortion; an inefficient showpiece really. still, there's something to be said for having it done first, and, if the chinese do it, then more power to them.
• 14 million of research from an ab initio program isn't enough to make a toilet handle on a maglev train. a maglev is something at least as complicated as a 777 given all the supporting things that need to be built such as stations, emergency vehicles, turnouts (switches), safety devices, computer systems, and so forth. 14 million for a maglev project is GUARANTEED not to go anywhere other than perhaps some basic research in electrical systems that the japanese have done long ago.
• a maglev is PERFECT for:
  • the US northeast corridor
  • london-edinburgh via manchester/liverpool
  • tokyo-osaka via the chuo-shinkansen route (duh).
  • hong kong - guangzhou - shanghai

Incidentally, I find Japan Railway Technical Review journal to be a well-written intelligent web site with discussion of the true state of the art of trains. Worth a read if you actually read things in more than the slashdot 3-second scan way.

UK Maglev

[Alan Cox]

Birmingham International Airport had a maglev back in the 1980's. Very cute, technically brilliant and eventually replaced with a bus for simple economic reasons.

Maglev is terribly "neat", but nobody seems to have solved the fundamental problem that if you use just a fraction of the amount of power required to levitate the train to push a wheeled one instead, the wheeled one goes a damn site faster and costs less to run

Re:Just like the flying car...a loser?

[PSaltyDS]

I would like to add two interesting links pulled from other posts:

Birmingham International Airport in Britian used to have a MagLev running from '84-'95. It was shut down due to high maintenance cost and replaced with a cable-drawn rail system.

The Shanghai Transrapid looks at first blush like a running passenger service, but look closer and it is a "Test Facility" that gives guided tours and "Demonstration Rides".

There can be no doubt about the technical capabiltiy to build these things, but the practical viability has yet to be seen.