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Spain, Morocco To Build Undersea Rail Tunnels
DoraLives writes "The BBC reports that Spain and Morocco 'have agreed to build a 39-kilometre rail tunnel beneath the Mediterranean Sea, to link Europe and Africa.' and that 'This plan could be put into action as early as next year...' Fairly daunting technical piece of work should they attempt it, but the prospect of an all-rail trip from Edinburgh to Tangiers is intriguing to say the least."
You forgot about tourism being the biggest industry.
Much of europe, and of course Spain, are linked with very good railway system. A link to North Africa will boost tourism to both the countries as one has to travel to Spain enroute to Africa.
Lets not forget other possible usage of the link, like transportation of goods, etc.
geek page at KY speaks
When I was over in France I saw a doco about one of the unintended consequences of the Chunnel: muslim & eastern european refuges. It's easier for them to cross in the train. (I can't remember which way they were headed! but I know it was an "issue" the news was talking about). I think they'd set up a camp for them because they had no money and nowhere else to go.
I'd think a link from Europe to Africa will be very severely subject to this problem.
Also, does anyone know how the depth of this tunnel would compare to that of the Chunnel?
Tierce
Who sponsors your feelings?
Because of the curvature of the Earth the shortest path between San Francisco and Tokyo goes as high as 48 N. So going through the Bering strait wouldn't be too much of a detour, and connecting Japan to mainland Asia isn't laughably hard. Check a map, or better yet, a globe.
Culture is a very large part of your soul, and with the spread of capitalism, it seems like the local cultures get tained and more bland.
What will happen is a lot of local culture will disappear in place of the golden arches and starbucks. All so McDonalds can claim to have served 4 trillion instead of 3 trillion.
I'm all for freedom of trade but greed is bad no matter which way you look at it.
Get paid to code OSS
It might be a misprint, but a tunnel under the water doesn't have to be as complicated as one under Boston. It's just a big concrete-lined bore-hole. You don't have to worry about making sure the ground above you doesn't collapse, after you get past a certain depth. It doesn't even need to be ventilated, as the trains will be run by electricity. By comparison, a car tunnel under a city is shallow and has to be ventilated. (so people don't die from suffocating on trapped car exhaust.) While not as large an undertaking, the Big Dig is much more intricate.
It's fair to say that the Big Dig was too expensive, but I don't think that it could be considered "easy" relative to anything.
I think your point would've been better made comparing this project to the Chunnel. That 30 mile link cost about $13 billion (U.S.). So, yeah, 30 million seems a bit on the low side.
How on Earth could it ever be profitable to connect Spain and Morocco? It's impossible. Madrid is the only city in Spain that could rival London, Paris or Brussels. And it already takes 6 hours to get from Madrid to the proposed tunnel! And then, there is no large business city on the other side. No business traveler will be taking the train. The plane will always be preferred on such distances.
Am I making sense? Had to work throughout the night.
Strangely enough, there does not seem to be so many european posts about that subject, that is truly interesting.
For my fellow globalized-citizens from America, two things :
- Oh no, those fucking africans are going to invade Europe, because there will be no more control over immigration. Maybe you are not aware of it, but we have something called in here the European Union. And that means that England and France are virtually borderless for the transportation of people. This is not because you red it in the press that the train project will be the same. Why ? Because Morocco is not part of the European Union. It is only applying for a "special relationship". Thus, one can imagine that controls there will be tight, very tight. Spain has been sailing a tight ship so far.
- What happens if an islamist/terrorist is plantin a bomb out there ?Stop being so neurotic about that. People with dark skin don't have bombs in their suitcases. Only people with mad minds have bombs in their suitcases. Morocco suffered a terrorist attack ; Bali suffered a terrorist attack. Don't you have the slightest impression than terrorists are focusing on the shifting of Islam from the inside ? No ? Think about it. There will be no more risk for a bomb here than in every other place in the world.
What's interesting here is how spain is changing its mind about morocco. After all the fud about the Turah island, this is one more step forward to enhance the relationship between Spain and Morocco. It a step for solving the immigration problem, since this is a path to rationalize the constant flux of immigrants coming to Europe from Spain. It is a step for integrating North Africa into Europe. It is a step for making the Arab people understand that they are *not* rejected. Etc.Tough there have been some funny jokes (I loved the thread about grammar/spelling), people should speak more quietly about issues that they don't know anything about.
Regards,
Jdif
Let's overcome our weakness.
To any of you that don't work on transportation networks...
Do you have the slightest idea how much shorter the trip from Europe to Africa will be? Imagine Holland for example, which exports wheat to African countries in many situations. Their cheapest way to travel is of course by road, but too time consuming and it needs a trip through Continental Europe, bosphorus (Turkey, which they don't like at all), then Syria, Libanon, Israel, Egypt, etc. Now we get a direct link from Spain to Marocco.
Here is my prediction on how things will go, if this actually is successful.
1. Marocco and Spain will get rich from customs and the rest of the two continents will depend heavily on them for trade routes.
2. The English shipping industry will loose considerable amounts of money (they already did with the England/France tunnel).
3. Marocco will once again gain political influence in Africa, and will of course probably win over Western Sahara (there's been a disbute there for a long time, in case you didn't know).
4. Someone will figure out a way to involve Linux in this, eventhough Microsoft advertisements will fill the tunnel.
In case anyone wants to know more about the geography of transportation, a good intro is located at: http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/
Also, a car tunnel under a city has the huge problems of getting right-of-way and working around existing structures. All the political hassles and what-not. I would imagine Boston would be one of the most-expensive-possible places to do that sort of thing, with it's massively built-up government and public/private infrastructure. It probably costs a Million dollars to install a newspaper sales box in downtown Boston.
A Good Intro to NetBS
25 years ago, half the population of the earth was poor, had no easy access to fresh water, and millions were fleeing war and disorder. Today, half the population of the earth is poor, and has no easy access to fresh water, and millions are fleeing war and disorder.
Abigail
It is silly to compare how a super power is spending on a war over seas to how a nation with only a fraction the GDP is building a very expensive tunnel to Morocco.
It is precisely because Spain's financial means are more limited that the comparison is informative. Spain doesn't have the option of fighting big wars to deal with threats. Instead, they have to find means of promoting peace, development, and cooperation. One way they believe they can do that is through cooperative infrastructure projects.
Of course, it's dangerous to think that just because the US is a superpower, it is exempt from forces like budget deficits or capital flow. The current strength of the US military is bought at a staggering social and economic cost and it is anybody's guess how long it can be sustained.
The fact that the US spends lots of money does not add or subtract to the viability of such a massive government projects for Spain and Morocco. It is a cute commentary on US foreign policy, but plays no effect on whether these two nations should try and dig a tunnel under the sea.
Unless you have information that the rest of us don't, for now, we can assume that the Spanish have done their homework: as economic data shows, they are in far better control of their budget than the US is.
Note, incidentally, that digging has gotten a whole lot cheaper over the last decade and that there are many alternative tunnel technologies available as well, so there is no reason to believe that this project will be more than a blip in the Spanish budget.
Back to the topic at hand, the point was, regardless of what the US is doing, building such a tunnel is expensive. It is only justified if there is going to be some net gain for the two countries involved.
Yes, and the net gain is improved cooperation between Europe and Northern Africa, as well as a better shot at democratization and economic development in Morocco. Those are long-term goals that require long-term investments. Proponents of projects like these recognize that.
Yes, despite of this all, I think building a tunnel to a third world nation would be a bad idea for Spain.
Well, and Europeans don't want their neighboring third world nations to remain third world nations forever. That's why they try to integrate them and cooperate with them and why they invest in such projects.
The US approach to foreign policy, military intervention and a degree of isolationism, just is not workable for Europeans. While Europe is capable of creating a military to rival that of the US, Europeans are not willing to pay the financial or political cost of that. Furthermore, Europe's geographic location makes US-style isolationism impractical.
And that's the point of my original comparison between the Iraq war and this kind of project. Once you understand the relationship, you will understand why this kind of project makes financial sense to Europeans and why they can afford it.