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Do Companies Take Software, And Not Give?

SirDaShadow writes "The Inquirer has an excellent article that describes how companies take from the Open Source Community and how few are giving back. At the end of the article, it says it might be tax deductible. This made me think...wouldn't it be great for the OS community if we could provide a law to facilitate tax cuts to companies who give to OS, or at least make it mandatory to for-profit organizations to give a certain minimum amount and take it out of their taxes?" This piece ignores the obvious and large contributions that some companies have made in money, programmer time, code release and even just lending their name and credibility to projects like KDE and GNOME, but it does have some truth -- see for instance the Busybox Hall of Shame.

69 of 394 comments (clear)

  1. Busybox. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
  2. Noooo!!!! by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    wouldn't it be great for the OS community if we could provide a law to facilitate tax cuts to companies who give to OS

    Absolutely not. As soon as you get government involved, OS becomes political, and influenced by political forces. This is the last thing we want.

    1. Re:Noooo!!!! by cyb97 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Further OpenSource is an international affair, taxes and laws are purely national.
      I can certainly see problems with a large corporation donating millions of dollars to a project based in some "axis of evil" country or taxhaven somewhere and on the top of getting money out of the country in a pretty nice way getting taxcuts for doing so, too.

    2. Re:Noooo!!!! by zakezuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As soon as you get government involved, OS becomes political, and influenced by political forces ....In other news... the Goverment hit the mandated shutdown button for all Apache servers in Iraq as part of the war effort. GW Bush has said "We supported the software with our money, we have every right to shut down all communications of any nation we are at war with". Iraq officals in responce to this shutdown by buying copies of SCO. "Comercial products have no political influence, they just want money."

      According to a penquin in the street, "Stop that, it's silly".

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
    3. Re:Noooo!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Absolutely not. As soon as you get government involved, OS becomes political, and influenced by political forces. This is the last thing we want.

      I shall ignore your startling display of political naivety and ignorance, and draw attention instead to your curious suggestion that OSS is not political. Damn, there I was thinking we were striking a blow against exploitative capitalism, making a statement that not all value is monetary, and providing better software than the megacorporations can produce for free.

      Have you read the GNU manifesto? If that ain't political I'd like to know what is.

    4. Re:Noooo!!!! by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Keep in mind that open source software can be audited and modified by anybody

      We could certainly see a list of 'approved' projects for government support...

      Yes - Encryption the NSA can read
      No - Encryption that keeps stuff secret

      Yes - Software in english
      No - Software in nasty foreign languages

      -etc.

    5. Re:Noooo!!!! by Overly+Critical+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Guess you don't want the NSA or the government to be using or contributing to Linux, then. But they do.

      --
      "Sufferin' succotash."
  3. It's the corporate mindset by Buran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Corporations want to take before they give. That's the sad truth. If there's no extra profit in it for them, they're less likely to do it.

    Articles like this one are going to have to be published in places like the Wall Street Journal or other papers that corporate paperpushers look at. Then perhaps they'll catch on. Hopefully.

    Good karma is sometimes worth a lot more than immediate profit -- if a company pitches in to help, and gets their name in the changelog or thankyou files, who knows? They might get a few customers that way.

  4. Bah! by Ignis+Flatus · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They'll just use the deductions to write off archaic and useless code, like drivers for ports that no longer exist. Do you really need punchcard access?

  5. Mmmmmmaybe by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, of course there are two sides to every coin. I expect there's more corp sponsored free software hacking going on than you might think though. Remember that it's not always official - at my last job I submitted patches to various open source projects that I did on the job, because they happened to be basically what we needed and along the way I felt it was necessary to improve them. Often the only indication that they were done on paid time was that I sent them from my company email address.

    1. Re:Mmmmmmaybe by Cylix · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed,

      This is exactly the same story in my shop. Every application I have to fix and rework doesn't simply go to my personal patch folder. I would much rather have it part of a main branch so the issues gets resolved and hopefully in time it will be better then my fix.

      We are actually seeing alot of vendor box's come in that use a great deal of free software and I suspect they perform similar services.

      Here, I let management know that if it is under the GPL or similar license we are going to be submitting back fixes and in house scripts. Being we aren't a software shop they enjoy the exposure.

      Unfortunately, we are just not profitable enough to really submit funds to organizations. I hope this changes in the future and one day I can tell management these guys really make our lives easy. It's time for a donation to the cause.

      For a fact I know there are organizations who exist around Perl,Python,Sendmail (Heavily modified), etc and not one bit goes back. NDA bound not to say too much I'm afraid. However, I've seen massive scalability changes, authentication changes and whatnot. Some great work has been done in house and these companies are huge. Unfortunately, sometimes their work just doesn't conform to what people want back, but other then a patch or two I've never seen anything on the order of funding.

      --
      "You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
  6. somewhat naive? by cyb97 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I find this article somewhat naive. It's certainly true that there are lot of companies abusing GPL and OSS for commercial purposes some of them probably modify code and never release their changes.

    The article also suggest that instead of spending, and I quote
    "If you replaced 10 $30,000 Nokia firewall with a free NetBSD implementation, but it lacks the ability to report to your management software, why not do something about it?"
    This is not as easy as it sounds. Nokia probably payed through the nose to get the specs for that management software or signed more NDAs and deals that your company has seen in its lifetime. It's not always an option to do stuff yourself. Further most phb's will automagically raise the (valid) point, who to blame when the shit hits the fan. When something goes haywire and you payed some college kid $500, you can't call him in the middle of his exams and expect him to fix it. You can ask him, but he/she is certainly not obliged to fix it.
    If you go with Nokia, you can give their tollfree hotline a call and tell them your problem and the chances are that the hotfix/patch is already available.

    Things aren't so black/white as the article wants it to be, IMHO it's a pretty shitty article and doesn't really add anything to the scene apart from entropy. The busybox-link however, was interesting ;-)

  7. Re:Tax deductible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
    "Tax deductible" effectively means that the government pays for it and not the person/corporation that deducts it from their taxes.

    Not true at all. The government only pays for a percentage of the cost - which would be approximately the marginal tax rate of the entity donating the code.

    For example, if I donate $1 to a charity, and my marginal tax rate is 50%, I wind up paying $0.50 less in taxes than I would have without the tax deduction. I'm still out $0.50 from my own pocket.

    IANAA (accountant), so YMMV.

  8. Re:Tax deductible by divide+overflow · · Score: 3, Interesting


    >if you donate money to a charity and then take it out of your taxes, then effectively, you haven't donated one cent to the charity.

    No, that's incorrect. Money donated to charity is subtracted from the taxable income, meaning that the taxable entity only "gets back" the amount of taxes you'd have paid on that marginal income, not the full amount of your donation.

  9. GPL in proprietary... by SharpFang · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I personally wonder, how many "close source" companies secretly and illegally include GNU-copyrighted code in their products, and sell it without source, violating GPL, but nobody knows they do, just because nobody ever sees the source.

    Of course if the source was to be ever revealed, that is some serious risk, but if the company plans to keep it always secret - why not?

    [environment-friendly post, contains recycled material]

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:GPL in proprietary... by penguin7of9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Of course if the source was to be ever revealed, that is some serious risk, but if the company plans to keep it always secret - why not?

      Because GPL violations are not too hard to detect even without source code. And even if they were hard to detect, any company that does this would be at serious risk from a disgruntled employee. What better way to get back at your company than to get them in trouble for massive copyright violations of open source projects? Not only will their products be in jeopardy, they'll also be widely hated.

    2. Re:GPL in proprietary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      (Posting anonymous as I don't want any come back from my own employer...)

      I work for a company which produces embedded chipsets and software for communications devices. We don't sell anything under our own name, but sell to third parties (many of them major household names) who incorporate our chips and software in their products.

      Today, we use OSS in much the same way as many companies already mentioned: our build systems use Perl and GNU make, much of our in-house test and analysis software is built using Linux boxes, Perl, Python and the like.

      We definitely contribute fixes to the software we use, and in a couple of cases we have made significant enhancements to OSS software, which have duly made it into the mainline. Provided there's no conflict with our core business or IPR, there is never any problem with doing this.

      To date, we've never incorporated OSS into the software which forms part of our product line. However, I recently took part in a discussion in which we agreed that we needed to find a more scalable platform for our application software: today we have an in-house developed real-time executive which is creaking under the strain of the ever-increasing number of features we support.

      In terms of technical merit, Linux is an ideal platform for us. We understand, and are quite happy to comply with, the requirements of the GPL (which are not especially onerous, in respect of the kernel, since we can supply most of our proprietary code in the form of binary kernel modules or as application code).

      However, we had to conclude that this would be a bad idea, because even if we complied fully with the terms of the GPL, it would be virtually impossible to ensure that our customers also did so (since they often modify our code). In the worst case, we fear that we might be villified for the actions of our customers.

      We will probably choose a BSD kernel over Linux, given the more liberal licensing. I believe that we will play fair and contribute our changes back into the mainline, but we just can't be sure that our customers will do the same.

    3. Re:GPL in proprietary... by Alan+Cox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Quite a few. Its actually rather easy to tell in several cases. Try running any linux 2.2.1x remote DoS attacks against your wireless routers for example. Lots of them will fall over - and some of them from suprisingly major brands, most of whom bought in a 3rd party solution and didn't do their IPR homework. (And yes all the other holes apply too - is your wireless network vulnerable ?)

      One of the side effects of the music industry attempts to stomp out music piracy at any cost however is more and more criminalisation of copyright violations. That will help the smaller free software people no end because it will be the police busting down corporate doors for them (at least so the theory goes 8))

  10. Not at all surprised. by Resident+Geek · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Capitalism and Free Software are at complete odds with one another. You can't mandate gift-giving; it's called a fee. Capitalism fuctions like electricity, using the path of least resistance (least $$$ for most value). No company in their right mind would pay for what they can get for zero dollars.

    Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?

    --
    Fighting the War on the War on Drugs.
    http://smokedot.org/
    1. Re:Not at all surprised. by 2nd+Post! · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because you need to keep the cow alive?

      Otherwise you are held *hostage* by whoever owns the cow.

      Case in point:
      Apple
      Web browser, Safari, using KHTML code.
      Adopted the code into WebKit and WebCore, and in turn provide fixes and patches.

      Apple gains a small, lithe, agile, and capable HTML renderer
      Apple's contributions guarantee KHTML does not wither and die due to lack of attention as Mozilla gains steam
      Secondary effect of creating a third alternative to IE and Mozilla.
      Everyone, including Mozilla and IE users, benefit from the diversity and growth.

      Capitalism is efficient as long as the costs are taken into effect. If the cost of Open Source is factored in and it is still advantageous, then capitalism will adopt Open Source; we see this in IBM (they too contribute patches to Linux), SGI, Apple, and other, smaller, businesses that gain from the diverse contributors and stable development practices.

  11. please don't get taxes involved in opensource! by zr · · Score: 2, Insightful
    whatever you do, do not make contributions mandatory. some companies can't contribute, in the short term. this would quickly push them away opensource.

    give it time, people learn to contribute more.

    if anything lets not bring taxes into this.

  12. I don't see a problem by penguin7of9 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously, a sufficient fraction of those companies are "giving back" for there to exist a lively and productive open source community. And even "mere users" are useful for open source projects: they make feature requests and report bugs.

  13. go with the flow by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Funny

    Publishing is assymetrical. The efficiency of sharing info comes largely by its consumers outnumbering its producers. The network effect, where returns on investment increase when a platform's deployment footprint increases, makes the rapid spread of software deliver more to its users, especially its provider at the source. A little good software goes a long way.

    This is not to say that publishing software is a one way street. Opening the source is a great move towards interactivating the communication along the publishing pathways. At the very least, sourcecode servers provide an infrastructure where feedback from consumers can input meaningfully to the revision process, including patches, and especially structured test results. Many one-to-many relations, bidirectional, gives OSS development the definitive advantage in efficiency and robustness.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  14. How 'bout Human mindset. by nlinecomputers · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And how many slashdotters who are NOT programmers have downloaded and used free software and never gave the authors any money for it? Isn't buying a Linux distro a way of giving back to the community if you're not a programmer.

    Typical Open Source hypocrisy: Programmers that whine about paying for programs and demanding that it has to "Be Free as in Freedom" and then get pissed off because someone takes you up on that. Don't want someone to rip-off your work? Don't make it Free.

    The price of "freedom in programming" is the freeloader.

    --
    Slashdot, home of supporters of free software, free music, and free speech.Except for Moderators that disagree with you.
    1. Re:How 'bout Human mindset. by cyb97 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are several levels of freedom. "Free as in beer" being one of them.
      As you so blately point out "Don't make it free", well firstly software that is available online isn't automatically free. More than 9 out of 10 times theres a catch or strings attached. Usually in the file called LICENSE or in the top of all the source files.
      This is the only thing that separates warez from less than payware.

      You can use it on conditions, if you're not smart enough to follow the conditions you should have your brain recalled and your networking-rights revoked. It's a fundamental issue, if you can't stick with the license you are probably breaking the law of your local government and you are a retard!

      If somebody offers you X thousand codelines for free and all you have to do to make a profit out of them is to alter Y hundred and publish them. You should do that, and not try to eat your cake and have it, too!

    2. Re:How 'bout Human mindset. by Buran · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not everyone who uses open source software knows how to contribute back. I don't; if I did, I would at least try. (I do plan to learn a bit of programming at some point, so I still might, and there are a few bits of open source software that I use often that I'd like to contribute to.)

      The chances that a corporation does have someone who can contribute are a lot higher than for an individual. My comments were aimed at them -- though you do have a good point.

    3. Re:How 'bout Human mindset. by nmos · · Score: 4, Informative

      You don't need to be a programmer to contribute to OSS. You can:

      * Send $, pizza vouchers, Safari sub. etc to the developer of your choice.

      * Send $ to Debian or FSF (may even be tax deductable)

      * Donate hardware (something YOU really want supported) to a developer working in that area.

      * Test software and send back well documented bug reports.

      * Write documentation for your favorite app/utility

      * Write a Howto or mini-howto on something that has given you trouble.

      * Help others in your favorite mail list/newsgroup/forum.

    4. Re:How 'bout Human mindset. by Thavius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I second the documentation. Programmers are very inept at creating documentation (speaking from experience). However, I'm trying to get better at documentation, so I'm working on some for a favorite app of mine. There are so many good software products out there, but they don't do the world any good if only the developer knows how to use it.

    5. Re:How 'bout Human mindset. by stevey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's OK there are many things that can be usefully done even if you're not a programmer.

      For example I have a project which has happily had a few people contribute to - but I know there are areas I cannot manage myself.

      Contribute a logo?, or contribute some documentation? These are equally valid ways of given some time to help the project.

      Of course I like toys/rewards but even minor things like a good bugreport will make my day.

      I think a lot of projects are very similar to mine, a large userbase but a very small core of people who will tell you what they want and give you a small patch every now and again.

      It's not often that a project gets large enough to actually get lots of people working on it, and I'm glad that mine isn't like that to be honest. Sure I'd like to think that at some point I can hand it away to others and it will continue to exist - but as long as I've had fun along the way and learnt interesting things that's enough for me.

      The next time you find some free software and have trouble installing it why don't you write up your experiences and post it to a newsgroup/mailing list. Google will happily index it and chances are six months later somebody you've never met on the other side of the world will be very grateful you took the time to contribute documentation. It's a funny world like that!

  15. Thats not the point of free software. by Deleriux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The whole point of free software is freedom, the minute you begin adding forceful restrictions is the point it is not longer free software, like the internet freedom comes at a cost.

    If the cost if people dont need to give anything back then so be it. But if you start adding a requirement to give something back you will end up with shoddy code, less chance of anyone bothering to use it at the enterprise level and probably increase the TCO quite a bit.

    If you start adding more resrictions like this to free software you begin walking down the EULA road that the GPL and its siblings are supposed to be the opposite of.

  16. Is "Giving Back" Really Important? by Schlemphfer · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The Inquirer has an excellent article that describes how companies take from the Open Source Community and how few are giving back.

    I read the article, and it's one of those rare times that there's nothing much in it that isn't contained in the Slashdot summary. Anyway, isn't it totally to be expected that most companies would take everything they can get from open source, and not give anything back in terms of time or money?

    But so what? What Linux needs more than anything else is to capture more than 20% of the desktop market. Once there's a foothold of that magnitude, we'll start seeing practically everything, from Doom III to Quickbooks, released in Linux.

    So, as for those companies who aren't "giving back," -- I say, that merely by virtue of adding to the pool of Linux users, they are giving the open source movement exactly what it needs most.

    --
    I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
  17. Goody! by Epistax · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wanted to respond to this when I saw it on the inquirer.

    Quite simply, the corporation adopts an open source project. A bunch of their employees use it. THEY know whether or not THEY like it, not the company.
    How many individuals help out an open source project after the start using it from their business? That's what's important.

  18. companies employ programmers by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Most open source contributors are programmers (obviously). Some are students, and some are hobbiest programmers who earn their living some way other than programming, but a lot are programmers earning their living at companies that don't contribute to open source.

    At least some fraction of the pay these programmers earn at those companies should be counted when figuring the corporate effect on open source.

    Open source feeds the non-contributing companies, but those non-contributing companies enable more people to work as programmers, increasing the pool of people who are able to work on open source as individuals.

  19. Re:So you want to make free software... not free? by jrexilius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    good point. That is the idea of free software. We talk about wanting to see linux on the desktop and more end-user penetration but what can/should we expect in return. These companies (from the article) that integrate open-source software rarely have development staff and usually have very low skilled administrative staff. At best they could submit bug reports and do testing but I think that is even a bit much to expect.

    Admittedly, everyone in the community has different motivations, but one principle of open source is that it is given away freely without expectation of compensation. Some may say that it is actually with the expectation of benefiting from others' work but that cant be viewed as a transactional event. More like a .. uhh karma event ;-)

  20. Re:Typical Erik Andersen by belmolis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't know Erik Andersen or whether he is unusually combative, but I see nothing wrong with his Hall of Shame. He's perfectly entitled to try to enforce his copyright, and publicizing violations seems like a reasonable way to go about it. And he isn't by any means alone. The Free Software Foundation enforces the GPL on software to which it holds the copyright.

  21. BusyBox Hall Of Shame by b_w_duncan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    No disrespect meant to Erik, but I took a look around the hall of shame and it's not really as shocking as it first appears. Buffalo's wireless router has a statement at the bottom of the Linked page stating they comply with the GPL and source code is available. The PDF link appears to be an exact copy of the GPL, in PDF format, for some reason.

    This leaves three products (counting the bottom three DVD players as one naughty entity) which appear to be breaking the GPL and are doing nothing about it. Considering Erik's 'Products' page, we're doing alright. It would seem that the other companies aren't really kicking up a fuss over having to have the source code available, maybe they just didn't read the GPL when they first used the code?

    From the viewpoint of the code actually being used, I think this is a good thing. It represents a shift towards OS. A previous poster said that if even a small percentage give something back, we're doing pretty well. How many closed-source companies can claim to have had constructive feedback on their products that OS has the potential to enjoy?

    Perhaps if we are receptive to this use of OS code, we will reap the rewards later when companies realise what a good deal they're getting? Patience is a virtue?

    Bruce

    1. Re:BusyBox Hall Of Shame by andersen · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is not intended to be "shocking". It is intended to try and get at least a bit more license compliance. Having my lawyer send letters is a great way to get nothing done. The Hall of Shame has been far more effective at getting companies to talk to me about making the needed changes. To the extent it is working, I am glad it is there.

      --
      -Erik -- --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--
    2. Re:BusyBox Hall Of Shame by andersen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I make a point of not asking. When they have offered an explanation, it has usually been along the lines of "we thought we were in compliance, since you can get busybox from the busybox website", or "the company we bought the software from in Taiwan didn't tell us", and similar things.

      --
      -Erik -- --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--
  22. Re:Terrible Idea by geekoid · · Score: 4, Funny

    " We have to win by the same rules everyone else plays by."

    Then we should manipulate congress to get our way?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  23. Not Unreasonable by iCharles · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The software is presented as free-as-in-beer, with no one actually making money off the source (I know there is a free-as-in-freedom angle, too. However, it is always the cost-of-license advantage I see advertised to corporations). No one who uses the software is obliged to do anything--don't complain if there isn't a feature you want (you have the source), but there is no license cost, and no legal obligation. The ethical one is debatable.


    Many companies lack the skills to maintain code--they simply don't have developers (or at least not the right sort of developer). To meaningfully contribute monetarily would erode at the cost savings. If the company is public, there may even be further complications.


    If you create a model where software is available with no license fee, then you need to accept that is the rules you play by. Certainly you can go after the company if the start to make money off extensions to the software (i.e. violate the license), but, as someone noted earlier, you can't put a sign that says "free food," and complain that someone didn't chip in.

    1. Re:Not Unreasonable by iCharles · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Making meaningful monetary contributions makes sense if you get something in return.


      I'm sorry, you can't have it both ways. You can't advertise to companies that open source offers you an opportunity to get software without the high, high license fees, then complain when they don't contribute anything--money, time, or other.


      Could companies hire consultants or give money to open source projects? Sure. Is it a nice thing to do? Absolutely. Is it wrong if they don't? No. Every time you hear advocates speak of entering corporate space, the license costs are a major perk--not paying the "Microsoft tax." If you win by that rule, you must accept the defeats.


      Unfortunately, this is the risk you take when you write software and give it away: you cannon ensure you will get something tangible in return.

  24. R&D tax credits.... by The+Lynxpro · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I believe American corporations could already contribute to open source projects and receive R&D tax credits. The only difference would be the open source project would not be "in house" but if they could show they received something from the "donation" then it should work. Then again, I'm not a tax man. Of course, if the open source project was administered by a non-profit foundation, then a monetary contribution would be a charitable tax donation (Mozilla Foundation?)...

    --
    "Right now, somewhere in this world, Scott Baio is plowing a woman he doesn't love," - Peter Griffin, *Family Guy*
  25. Re:Typical Erik Andersen by andersen · · Score: 4, Informative

    Heh. Nice troll... You forgot to mention that I have snakes for hair and I eat babies for breakfast... :-)

    I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money, and zillions of hours developing busybox and uClibc and paying for hosting to make them available to the world. I really don't care if you happen to like me or not -- that is your business. I also don't care if you happen to like opensource stuff or not. Also your business. For the record, I did not post this to slashdot. I tried having my lawyer send letters to companies violating the busybox license. A good way to accomplish nothing -- it was just not working. Then I came up wit the idea of the Hall of Shame, and I have found it to be a far more effective tool for getting compliance. Most companies claim they didn't realize they were not in compliance, and are taking steps to fix the problems. Which I think is much better than getting lawyers involved, especially since I'm not very interested in suing people.

    --
    -Erik -- --This message was written using 73% post-consumer electrons--
  26. Well, maybe by mcc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    drivers for ports that no longer exist. Do you really need punchcard access?

    Someday, concievably, historians might.

    OK, so maybe having a bunch of "useless" or obsolete software dumped into the quasi-public-domain isn't of much public good. But I still would think it is better than having all of that software simply lost to time forever.

    We are going to have a relatively massive memory hole in the future's conception of what programming at the professional level at this time was like caused by the fact that all of the source code of the software we use today is going to be simply lost, since no one has copies except for the companies that made them, and those companies more than likely are not going to bother maintaining or keeping track of that code. No one today cares what the source code for Clarisworks versions 1 through 3 for the Apple //gs looked like. But maybe someone will care in 200 years. Who knows?

    And then there's all those little "what if"s. For example, what if there's some huge quantity of deteriorating tapes somewhere containing some information important to someone, and it is determined these things need to be moved off and onto less fragile media, but the tape drives that read them can only be used from old, scarce and broken PDP-11s because they are the only platform for which drivers exist? In that light, device drivers for a dead platform don't sound so useless after all.

    Things of that nature. Really, who can say what code that someone someday cold consider "useful"? I say, the more code preserved by the GPL in our cultural memory, the better.

  27. Government has been involved from the beginning. by jbn-o · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As soon as you get government involved, OS becomes political, and influenced by political forces. This is the last thing we want.

    Government is already deeply involved and the decisions you make are already political. This cannot be escaped. Government is what set up and controls copyright and patent regimes, the laws under which computer software are chiefly distributed, copied, and modified.

    Government and big businesses are colluding to expand these regimes to include more behavior, making it impossible to do ordinary things without involving at least one of these regimes.

    Your post speaks to a typical Slashdot mindset that precludes getting involved in government to affect a beneficial change for citizens. Your post is hardly insightful.

  28. Re:Free by sfe_software · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nonetheless, incetives such as tax cuts do sound like an interesting idea.

    I agree that simply making a source-code donation (so to speak) into a tax-deductable gift could help encourage even further growth of open-source software. However, I don't see it happening unless the organization running the project were a registered non-profit outfit.

    One thing in the original post really bugs me:

    ...or at least make it mandatory to for-profit organizations to give a certain minimum amount and take it out of their taxes?

    Make it mandatory? Are you serious? I wasn't sure if you meant to require a code contribution or a monetary one.

    For code, this *might* be possible if your particular license required it, and even that would be pushing it IMO. This would only work with projects that are intended for developers to use; you'd never have anyone using Mozilla if such use required that you contribute code.

    If you're talking about monetary contributions, then why bother being open-source in the first place? Essentially, you'd have a commercial product, but with the benefits of a non-profit outfit. It will never happen.

    --
    NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
  29. Giving comes in many forms by carndearg · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The idea that companies who use open source software and give nothing back are just taking and not giving is preposterous. They ARE giving, and in more ways than one.

    First of all, they're giving the OSS community their support by using the code. Not much, but knowing that makes a difference.

    Then, they're giving employment to the geeks that roll out the code. I've built a successful career... well, a career anyway, out of being paid to run,use and tame free software, and I owe it not only to the free software I work with but to the people who chose to use the free sotware. My career, and the things my employers can do, would have been a lot more limited had they not had another option but the roadmap laid down for them by a well known developer of feature limited and proprietary software.

    It's a commercial world out there chaps, let's not forget it. Every one of you who gets paid to do something based on free software has been given something by your employer that depends on that choice of theirs: your liveliehood. If you still feel that nothing's been given back then dont break the chain, give something back yourselves and write some free software of your own.

  30. Hang On There -- by DannyO152 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If a company hires folks to build upon open source projects, then the costs of writing the code (salaries) are already fully deducted, and as there's no additional material cost for releasing their code, there would be no additional deductions.

    IIRC, an individual's labor donated to non-profit causes are not deductible for the individual. And keep in mind that in the US if your individual enterprises don't turn a profit in three years, it's a hobby and expenses are deductible only to the extent of income received.

    I disclaim here, I am not an accountant.

  31. Re:Actually by dspeyer · · Score: 3, Informative
    Not a problem, the FSF is already 501-c3 (it's not all *that* hard). They certainly accept (tax-deductable) donations which they use to hire programmers (and occationally lawyers). I'm sure they'd take one with acceptable strings (e.g. "Here's $100K, spend it on Gnome"). Obviously they won't take money earmarked for non-free software, but I doubt they insist on copyleft or GNU.

    I think there are similar organizations dedicated to KDE, Apache, Mozilla, and many other large projects. For that matter, a serious e-mail to a dev list offering money can probably get a 501-c3 set up.

  32. One Important Distinction by cleetus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The article talks about how nice it would be if companies offered to do additional programming on the OS software they use. This is nice, but is not required, assuming the software in question is GPL'ed. All that is required it that the licensee make an offer to provide source code if they distribute binaries outside their organization. If these companies are in compliance, there is no issue here and the article is just wishful thinking.

    The Busybox Hall of Shame is a different animal altogether. These corporations are (supposedly/probably) not in compliance with the Busybox license. These are the *real* corporate bad guys, and the OS community should work to bring them into compliance, just like we did with Linksys et al.

    Bottom line: if you want users of your software to do more than just make source code available, create a new license with contribution requirements. Its highly likely that such a license won't be truly open source and that no-one will want to use your software under such terms.

  33. Is it possible not to contribute if you use? by Performer+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't a problem, the freeloaders don't cost anyone anything when it comes to copying opensource software, infact they help it by broadening the base for potential services, applications and general viability. It's the contributors who make he product great. How many people have contributed to Linux, or do you just use it? Did you pay for it or get a free download.

    The point is that copying software is almost free, there's no harm done when you take. It doesn't subtract from what is already created, sure contributing helps it get written, but merely using the software helps it grow in many ways and it's no skin of anyone's nose.

  34. Re:Tax deductible by velo_mike · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Tax deductible" effectively means that the government pays for it

    I really wish people would get it out of their heads that the government pays for things Where does the government get the money? Who contributed, at gunpoint, the funds for the government to pay for things? Now, who pays for this???

    thus endeth the sermon...

    --

    At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
    Alan Greenspan

  35. It should be by Nihilist_CE · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I say, that merely by virtue of adding to the pool of Linux users, they are giving the open source movement exactly what it needs most.
    Are they really doing that, though? Sure, maybe their sysadmins need to brush up their *nix skills, but the techie/geek circles already know the benefits of OSFS. It often seems to me like Linux is the dirty little secret of the internet. If every company who ran an Apache server had a link on their front webpage saying something like "This server is run by open-source software. Click here to find out how OS can help you!", or, better yet, optimized their pages for Firebird instead of IE6, then they'd really be "adding to the pool of Linux users."
  36. Doesn't anyone read the article? by Elladan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Oh wait, this is /.

    All these posts along the lines of, "You released it free, now take your lumps!" are completely missing the point. (Well, at least of the article. The point of the timothy, who linked to the article, is another matter)

    The point is, if a company uses free software, it should open its pocketbook instead of whining. Instead of going, "Waaa, it doesn't have feature X!" or "Waaa, there's a bug!" it should pay someone to fix the problem. It could pay someone in-house, in which case it should release the patches back to the community, or it can pay someone externally to do it.

    One point that's often missed about releasing patches done in-house: the GPL doesn't require it for most backend software, but it's still a good plan for reasons other than being ethical and nice. If you release the patches, they can be integrated into the product as a whole, meaning you don't have to handle the expensive task of being their sole maintainer in the future.

    It seems to me that the article is exactly right. Companies already do this to an extent by paying companies like Redhat for support, but if a piece of software is important to your business, it only makes sense to take a direct hand in its development. The whole mentality of purely being a consumer of whatever is offered from the development community is neither productive nor cost-effective. If something is important to you, make it happen. Don't just wait for other people to do it for you. That sort of thinking gives you situations like Microsoft, where someone might get around to helping you eventually, but oh man will your pocketbook be sorry.

    As with politics, money talks. If you want the best software for your business, you should help fund the developers who can make it happen. Otherwise, since it's free software, you'll be able to use whatever the community thinks is important, but what you think is important may not be considered as relevant or get done as quickly (or at all).

    1. Re:Doesn't anyone read the article? by Alan+Cox · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It isnt just patches. Some very large companies release some very large pieces of software open source. Computing heavyweights like Sun for example have contributed vast amounts of stuff.

      Outside the computing world you might be suprised just who has opened software. How about large banks ? - Yep - take a look at http://www.aplusdev.org for one example.

  37. There is a payback for making OSS. by Qbertino · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is one payback for OSS and AFAICT its the one that gave us Eclipse and some other nicies like a GPLd QT and stuff.
    It's called bragging rights.
    That's the prime reason for companies to invest into OSS.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  38. IBM by scarolan · · Score: 3, Interesting
    It's nice to see IBM putting their money into promoting and developing linux. I just saw a commercial on TV the other night, where all these different people are coming into a blank white room and educating this young boy. They teach him all sorts of things.

    At the end of the commercial they say "His name . . . is LINUX". It was a weird commercial, but when a heavy hitter like IBM gets behind something the guys in the suits will start to listen. I predict that within 5 years, Microsoft's monopoly on the desktop and Office suite will be all but over.

  39. Not always code or dollar$ by red+floyd · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not all support needs to be financial or code.

    I would argue that IBM, while it has contributed a great deal to the Linux kernel (RCU, JFS...) is currently making a much much greater contribution with its (admittedly in its own interest) staunch defense of the SCO suit, and it's countersuit claiming GPL violation (as well as patent infringement).

    --
    The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
  40. Re:Typical Erik Andersen by bug1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ive worked on busybox with Erik for over 3 years, your the first person ive heard criticise him like that. Your opinion of him certainly isnt common.

    As someone who has done a lot of work on busybox, im glad Erik set up the "Hall of Shame", and does his best to defend the project.

    Do you know what "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is ?

  41. Don't set yourself up to be taken advantage of. by jbn-o · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But so what? What Linux needs more than anything else is to capture more than 20% of the desktop market. Once there's a foothold of that magnitude, we'll start seeing practically everything, from Doom III to Quickbooks, released in Linux.

    I would ask the same question of you--so what? We already have that thanks to emulation and there are plenty of other versions of Microsoft Windows where you can be catered to so long as you're willing to give up your freedom. What we need are Free Software programs to do these jobs, not more non-free software.

    So, as for those companies who aren't "giving back," -- I say, that merely by virtue of adding to the pool of Linux[sic] users, they are giving the open source movement exactly what it needs most.

    Perhaps that movement is satisified, but that movement is also very shortsighted in its mission to please businesses.

    You certainly won't gain popularity over proprietors by giving them code under non-copyleft Free Software licenses or by choosing to run their proprietary alternative to a free program. Treating businesses like charities doesn't make you their friend, it sets you up to be taken advantage of. I'm reminded of the FSF's response to Microsoft when Microsoft's CEOs were on the lecture circuit calling the GNU General Public License a "cancer" and "unamerican":

    "From time to time, companies have said to us, "We would make an improved version of this program if you allow us to release it without freedom." We say, "No thanks--your improvements might be useful if they were free, but if we can't use them in freedom, they are no good at all." Then they appeal to our egos, saying that our code will have "more users" inside their proprietary programs. We respond that we value our community's freedom more than an irrelevant form of popularity."

    Or why they ask you to give credit to the GNU operating system and not just the Linux kernal:

    "People justify adding non-free software in the name of the "popularity of Linux"--in effect, valuing popularity above freedom. Sometimes this is openly admitted. For instance, Wired Magazine says Robert McMillan, editor of Linux Magazine, "feels that the move toward open source software should be fueled by technical, rather than political, decisions." And Caldera's CEO openly urged users to drop the goal of freedom and work instead for the "popularity of Linux".

    Adding non-free software to the GNU/Linux system may increase the popularity, if by popularity we mean the number of people using some of GNU/Linux in combination with non-free software. But at the same time, it implicitly encourages the community to accept non-free software as a good thing, and forget the goal of freedom. It is no use driving faster if you can't stay on the road."

    The chase for popularity is misguided and naive. I'm sure you have the best of intentions for GNU/Linux users, but you don't seem to understand that giving up freedom should not be done lightly. Sometimes giving up software freedom is acceptable, but most of the time it is not a good strategy. We are not well served with non-free programs to get jobs done.

  42. You should have responded. by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't bite when people write me about my articles, that is why I put my e-mail on the top of every one :).

    That said, if the people use it and love it, chances are that corporations are getting a benefit from it. I don't think the people contributing on their own time has the same power of contributing on corporate time.

    The scenario I was imagining was that a company uses the software, and saves a ton of money doing so. An employee goes to his boss, and says 'Can I take friday afternoons to code a new feature and submit patches?'. In an ideal world, the boss would reply 'sure Bob, that would benefit us as well as the community, and it is a very good cost/benefit ratio' rather than the more common 'get bent, back to the mines'.

    -Charlie

  43. Not everything government does is bad. by jbn-o · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If that is the typical slashdot attitude, then good. The most beneficial thing that government can do for its citizens is to leave them alone to live their lives the way they want to as much as possible.

    How ironic it is then that your response is being carried on the Internet, an extension of a network which began as a government program.

    If people took your attitude around the Great Depression, people wouldn't have the large government programs that pulled them out of poverty and helped restore some degree of trust in the US government. These programs were looked upon with scorn in the 1980's when the rich were doing so well and they didn't have much of an alternative press to deal with. But today we can see the international problems caused by widescale deregulation and so-called "free-trade" agreements that encourage what many call 'a race to the bottom'.

    Now that the US economy is circling the drain again, people will probably look again at big government programs to help them compete with low wage jobs overseas. Someday people will realize what's in store when you leave your economy to corporations that chase the lowest paid worker on Earth but want all the tax breaks the US is willing to give.

    While obviously not everything governments do is worthwhile or reasonable, some things governments do are. And in a government where you have the opportunity to participate, as you do in the US by talking with your representatives, participating in the media, and voting, you share the task of making it better.

  44. Bad Idea by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Making free software tax deductible will be implicitly admitting that software has value. And if it has value, it can be taxed. This means that anyone receiving said software will essentially be receiving a gift which, according to US tax laws, is taxable. Do you really want to be taxed for all the software you use?

  45. Re:So you want to make free software... not free? by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't think that's entirely accurate. It's given away freely without expectation of compensation, but not without expectation of the receiver doing the same. The issue is not that company X has got something for nothing, but rather that they are giving nothing in return.

    I'm stoked when a user uses and like my software and equally so when they pass it along to mates, but if I caught a user blatently selling my code and not passing it on (in direct violation of the license) they'll get a C&D letter, followed by legal action. Being a company doesn't change that in any way.

    Even a company without IT staff usually has a lawyer or two available, and presumably their lawyers are saying you don't need to adhear to the GPL. If lawyers are giving that advice, then we better get this into court and clearly prove otherwise - before it gets out of hand.

    --
    Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
  46. RPL -the anti-deadbeat license. by randall_burns · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The RPL was designed in response to a feature of the GPL that allows a company to modify Open Source products and not disclose that changed product unless they distribute outside their organization. The resulting license is considerably more viral than the GPL-which means that many corporate users would want to buy the software under a commercial license.

  47. I work for a very large company... by FatSean · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and this post is all me. Having worked on projects using many products made by my company, bugs have often been found. These changes go through quickly as we all work for the same boss. This is not to say that other customers do not get fixes made to products they use. A popular server or two we sell has acquired many features and fixes directly as a result of requests by external customers.

    --
    Blar.
  48. Yeah.... by FatSean · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Banking on a liscense unproven in court seems kinda silly. I mean, any company could take OSS, change the source enough to make it theirs and nobody would be able to prove they stole it.

    --
    Blar.
  49. Companies rarely take without giving with GPL by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Or even mostly with modern projects and the BSD license. You see---

    as long as the company is promoting, testing, or even just using the free software they are contributing by exposing others to it. Think of it as free marketing at the very least. If they can give bug reports, that is better. If they buy from a distributor such as Red Hat and rely on their support, they are helping Red Hat make bug reports, etc. That is all OK.

    The whole point of free software is that it gives companies and individuals the freedom to contribute to what extent they decide is in their best interest! This can be anywhere from simply USING the software to contributing back code.

    Why are people so hostile towards users? I just don't understand...

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  50. Why use OSS by solprovider · · Score: 3, Informative

    Hiring a code maintainer is exatly what a company does not want to do.

    Every company should have someone who is responsible for tracking what software is used, who is using it, and what releases are used. They should check at least monthly to see if there are any updates, what the updates do, and whether the updates are critical or desirable for the company. This person is usually an administrator with no programming skills. This applies whether the software is all proprietary, all OSS, or mized. It is REQUIRED if proprietary software is involved to track the per-person and per-server and per-CPU licenses.

    Maintainers are very expensive, and you can't hire them in pieces.

    I cannot be the only consultant who works hourly. Companies hire me when they need me. I go away when my task is done. They know I am available if they need more assistance. Does that fit your definition of "hiring in pieces?

    The closest you can come to this is to hiring a company which specializes in maintaining the package you wanted.

    Does it matter if it is a company or an individual? 1099s are 1099s regardless of how many people do the work. Hiring a company does mean you can have a better SLA than an individual can deliver. I had 4 companies want me in their offices for the same day in May; I was able to keep them all happy, but that is because my relationships are based on my controlling the schedule while making them happy, and they all know and accept that. I am hired through consulting companies, so the customers could ask for someone else from the consulting companies if there was anyone else who could handle the tasks.

    Why do they need to specialize in THIS package? I am often shown the systems where some critical application is running and asked to fix something. I have to figure out where the files are, what language they are in, where the issue is, write the fix, and attempt to test it without destroying the live system. (The last time this happened, they pointed me to the wrong server!) A good programmer can work on anything. If you know the programming language, then you can narrow your search to people/companies that specialize in the language, but why limit yourself to somebody that knows THIS product? Maybe it was on the resume because they did some little fix for another customer. Check the list of active contributors to the package and see if one of them is willing to accept money from you in return for guaranteeing that your needs are filled. If not, then either find someone willing to become a (paid) contributor, or just find someone who is really good at programming.

    In that case, you've lost the price advantage you had, and you've not gained the source.

    It does not stop being OSS just because you hire someone else to look at it. I believe support for most OSS is equal or less expensive than equivalent support for proprietary software. It may have something to do with people being able to read the code. Or it might be that people who work with OSS tend to like software much more than people who just do it as a job.

    You don't have people on site who can actually read the source,

    Depends on your contract. Did you ask for someone onsite 24x7? Do you really need that? If you are hiring a company for support, then get a 4-hour SLA for critical issues. If the system is mission-critical, it should have enough redundancy that there is never a critical issue.

    and if your service provider goes under, you're left without an escape.

    Do you understand OSS? If your service provider goes under, you choose another service provider.

    What's the advantage of this over buying from Microsoft?

    When Microsoft goes under, there will be no updates. No bug fixes. No security fixes. With OSS, there is always somebody who can fix it. Your worst case is that you hire the best programmer you can find and give him much money to work on the software. But your company does not fall apart because you cannot fix/patch your productivity apps and web servers and every other piece of software you depend on.

    --
    I spend my life entertaining my brain.