KDE 3.x Installation On Solaris Discussed

Jim Hall writes " A recent Sun-hosted article looks at installing and running KDE 3.x on Solaris Operating System (Solaris OS) -based workstations. Author Corey Liu tries to shy away from the debate over GNOME vs. KDE, and focuses on how KDE is installed on Sun workstations and the Solaris OS. Both GNOME and KDE are available at freeware Web sites for users of the Solaris OS. While Sun recently began to favor GNOME as the default desktop environment on the Solaris OS, some people still enjoy using KDE."

Comments

Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Author Corey Liu tries to shy away from the debate over GNOME vs. KDE

That won't stop us.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[BuckaBooBob]

Why Debate? Do we really want KDE or GNOME turn into the Next MS Desktop equiv?... Choice is a Good thing! I would love to see a third or fourth in the mix as well... Each Targeting a Specific target group of users so we have a Choice... One a the Evils (Sability and Security Aside) of the MS desktop is the elimination of Choice..

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Admiral Llama]

I'm still waiting for MS to come out with their own window manager followed by some Office stuff. You want to run Office for Linux? Gotta have MS Window Manger for Linux, only $249!!!

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

HA HA HA HA HA

Gnome, the star-child desktop of the "Free as in GPL" GNU project, uses the LESSERGPL for GTK+. Qt on the other hand, uses the "Free as in GNU" GPL for Qt. Therefore you're an idiot, and Qt is more Free than GTK+

However it must be noted that none of this changes the fact that GTK+ is utter shit, and Qt while less shit, is still shit.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Qt is published under the GPL license. I'd call that pretty much free - even more free than LGPL which is a "Less" GPL license.

For companies (no matter if they are small or big) paying $1500 as a per seat developer license is very cheap if you take into account that you get a toolkit which is

- much more modern than gtk,
- much better supported,
- much better documented,
- and which allows for much faster development (due to the usage of C++, RAD tools like Qt Designer, etc.).

That's why these costs usually amortize within less than a month.

Guess why so many companies (Adobe, Daimler, Daimler Chrysler, Disney, HP, IBM, Motorola, Toshiba, Samsung, Sony, e.g.) favour Qt for software development.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

GTK using the LGPL means it is free for closed source software to link to.

QT using the GPL means it is not free for closed source software to link to.

Even though it is true in a certain sense, claiming the LGPL is "less free" than the GPL is very misleading. But you probably know that, and are just trolling.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're Richard M. Stallman himself, you're wrong and you know it. GNU themselves specifically encourage the use of the GPL for libraries! RMS changed it from "Library" to "Lesser" to emphasis the fact that the LGPL is "less Free"! How can it get any clearer? The LGPL is a less Free licence. GTK+ is licenced under the LGPL. Therefore Qt is more Free, as it licenced under the GPL. You loose, end of story, end of debate.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

It's only lesser in the fact that it isn't viral in the same way the GPL is. LGPL is the superior license for writing code.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Not The Real Me]

Supposedly, M$ already has versions of M$ Office running on Linux. M$ does not sell it since this is merely insurance, much like Apple has had a version of the MacOS that runs on Intel CPUs since the late 80's/early 90's but they don't sell that either.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, lets just clarify two very different uses of the word "free":

"free" as in free for non GPL software to link to

"free" as in can only be used with GPL compatible software (which, btw, includes BSD sytle licenses)

Both are important considerations for a library.

What the LGPL tends to do is keep development of the library in the open while still allowing closed software to link to the code.

What Trolltech has done with QT is keep the development closed (for the most part) and only GPL the code at certain times. That GPLed code is all well and good, but it can only be used by GPL compatible software.

So which system is more "free" ? Well its a mixed answer. One is more free in some ways, the other more free in others. The only thing everyone can seem to agree on is that they are "different".

Hence the endless debate, and endless supply of food for trolls.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, Jesus Christ!

YH(*all*)BT, man! YHL! HAND!!!!

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

- much more modern than gtk,

-1, incoherent gibberish.

- much better supported,

-1, wrong

- much better documented,

Possibly, but GTK's documentation is fine.

which allows for much faster development (due to the usage of C++,

-1, ignorant, stupid, and wrong. There are gtk bindings for C++ that are far better than Qt in that they do not require crappy preprocessors, don't rely on broken macro based signals and slots and use the STL instead of half-assed Q implementations.

I reckon that puts you on about -5.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[raodin]

That all may be, but that doesn't change the fact that IMHO, Qt is ugly as hell, and I could care less if the big companies chose it.. I can't stand USING it.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

The expression is "couldn't care less". In other words, your level of caring about it is pegged at zero. If you could care less then you do care to some degree about it.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Kent Recal]

Third or fourth?
There are many more.

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[BuckaBooBob]

They are the only 2 Choices you see in any distro these days... and for most distro's the choice is aparent... Maybe I worded it improperly.. But there should be a greater visibily of choice..

Basically you can have the same problems MS has had by the lack of Choice of options when installing... I can browse the Web with IE.. why do I need or want netscape.. Distro's are getting more and more New User Friendly all the time.. If Options present themselves during installation they may be opt to try them out rather than going with default..

As for the Other Desktops out there there is very little to no development being done on them it keep them Fresh... (I am not talking about window managers..)

Re:Tries to shy away from the debate

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, lets just clarify two very different uses of the word "free":

You're the only one trying to "clarify" it to try and win your argument. I know exactly which "Free" I mean, and it's the "Free as in GPL" Free. The LGPL is "less Free". This isn't difficult.

Correction.

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction. That's "Sowboi Squeal". Thank you.

Re:Mirror

[musikit]

why? if sun can't handle their own servers getting /.ed then i think they need to retool their product toward the people they are trying to sell toward.

As a Solaris KDE user...

[Megaslow]

... I must say for one thing, that was probably one of the worst articles I've ever seen... A monkey could figure out how to stick the Solaris Companion CD in the drive and install KDE.

That aside, I would personally recommend not installing the sun provided KDE, but rather, the packages assembled by Stefan Teleman, available through ftp.kde.org. This is version 3.1.4, whereas the Sun provided version is 3.1.1a.

Re:As a Solaris KDE user...

[Anonymous Coward]

A monkey could figure out how to stick the Solaris Companion CD in the drive and install KDE.

Insensitive clod! Sure, that's fine if you have a banana burning a hole in your pocket, but most of us can't afford to buy a dual monkey processor, and mine is too busy writing out all of the works of Shakespeare to multitask.

Re:Mirror

[PakProtector]

Woops. Someone hates my html.

The Article

KDE

[Elektroschock]

In my personal opinion KDE is the superiour environment for the desktop and the best environment for the future of FLOSS as it is based gpled FreeQT.
However gtk bindings will be provided.

I don't think there has to be competition between desktop environments. The user decides, not SUN, not a zelotish brazilian company.

I believe it was a mistake of RedHat to ship only crippled versions of KDE and use this ugly Bluecurve theme.
That's probably why Linux never got a real grip on the desktop on markets which are dominated by RedHat.

Soon Kde 3.2 will be released... Run it on Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, what you like... or run Gnome. It's your decision.

Re:KDE

[Unnngh!]

IIRC, qt is only pseudo-gpl'd for free, completely non-competitive use. This creates a potential divide between the home and work installation if we are to see a real *nix desktop emerge...unless you want to pay a lot of money to use qt for more-or-less business purposes.

On the other hand I feel that KDE is a more sophisticated GUI than Gnome in that gnome. At least, I like it better. I think what is more important than how the GUI looks is, what are the underlying support libraries, and how will these allow you to run/develop applications in a somewhat more uniform environment. I don't think that many people care all that much how their desktop looks, or which group worked on developing it. Just include the libraries that will make both parties happy and I don't see a problem.

Re:KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

Red Hat did not ship a "broken" version of KDE at all. Read the detailed reports analysing it that were *NOT* written by an idiot zealot. Red Hat's version of KDE was fully functional and by default used a theme to make GNOME and KDE look more alike. Indeed, Red Hat provided patches to ensure that Qt and KDE could use the more advanced font system (now standard across newer Linux distros) shipped with RH9.

IT WAS NOT BROKEN.

Re:KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

YHBT

Re:KDE

[Elektroschock]

Oh, Mosfet had a different opinion about RedHat. Many developers were very angry about RedHat that never supported KDE properly.

Bero left RedHat because of their cripple KDe policy.

http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=1032946 57 505181&w=2
"Hi,
Effective immediately, I've left Red Hat (mostly in mutual agreement - I
don't want to work on crippling KDE, and they don't want an employee who
admits RH 8.0's KDE is crippleware). If anyone needs/wants to contact me, please use the addresses
bero@berolinux.org or bero@kde.org.

For any RH specific KDE issues, please contact Than Ngo ."

Re:KDE

[rRaminrodt]

Sorry, but you're only pseudo-correct. Qt has mutiple licenses, one of those is the GPL. The whole GPL, with all of its requirements, restrictions, and benefits. No more, no less.

Like any GPL source, you can sell it comercially as long as you abide by the GPL. Many OSS packages are GPL, and we use them without complaint. Not only that, those nice folks at Trolltech ;-) also give developers the option of not using the GPL: you can buy a licence that will let you do closed source development! Of course, like most closed source devel tools, doing this costs the developer money.

That's pretty much it. The developer is free to choose. Now, its not BSD or LGPL licenced, but that's the way it is. I can't figure why people scream about this (memory of the old licence situation maybe) and not about the kernel or GNU tools, those don't even give you the choice of paying for the closed option.

On the other hand, I can understand some folks being grumpy on the Windows licencing situation. But we're talking about KDE a _X11/Linux_ desktop, so I don't get where the angst comes from.

Re:KDE

[October_30th]

Many developers were very angry about RedHat that never supported KDE properly.

From what I could see, they left because THEIR camp (KDE) was not favoured over the "opposing camp". They weren't willing to compromise, so it's better for the rest of us when they left.

It's a GOOD IDEA to have a common GUI. It's a bad idea to have a hodgepodge of different widget sets. I personally don't like RedHat but in this matter they're 100% correct.

Re:KDE

[|_uke]

The Linux version of QT being pseudo-gpl'e is a very common misconception. Trolltech's marketing speak is a bit confusing in regards to this... You will notice that on their site, they state:

"Any software produced with QT under the GPL license, and any derivatives of this software, must also be released under the GPL."

Which is true of ANY GPL'ed software. (Although, software based on a GPL library, is still a gray issue.) You can still sell your software in any way you see fit. However, you are obligated to release the source code for your software, under the GPL... to the people you SELL your software to. (Which brings us to a big misconception people have with the GPL. You ONLY have to release source code to people who obtain a binary from you. Regardless if this is from a free download, or a purchased copy. )

But following that, they state:

"As before, any user who wishes to create proprietary or closed source software must first purchase a development license from Trolltech."

Which means that due to the fact that QT is duel licensed, you have the OPTION of purchasing a non GPL version of the QT library from Trolltech, if you wish your derivative to remain preparatory. (Because Trolltech owns the copyright to QT, they reserve the right to duel license, or even stop using the GPL all together for future versions of their software. Which is something you CAN'T do as a third party, who does not control the copyright.)

Re:KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, Mosfet had a different opinion about RedHat.

Mosfet is an idiot flamer... I thought that much was obvious by now.

Re:KDE

[be-fan]

Actually, due to the FreeQt agreements, Trolltech cannot drop the GPL for future versions of Qt without having the last GPL'ed version fall into the BSD license.

Re:KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

Unnngh! wrote:

I don't think that many people care all that much how their desktop looks,

Go meet some real people for a change, you barrel geek.

You'll find people care very much how their desktop looks. You'll find people get very emotional indeed about desktop environments and their details. (Not pointing fingers at any infuriating idiocies of KDE or Gnome here.)

However, you are correct that not many people give a toss who developed what. This isn't likely to change anytime soon; make a layman watch the KDE--Gnome debate for a while, and he'll go buy a copy of WinXP or OSX...

Stone Age

[Admiral Llama]

At work I still use AfterStep. Why? There's nothing there to fidget with instead of working. Today I'm working from home because I busted my knee and I've got Mac OS X. I haven't gotten anything done but surf, mess with iTunes and other BS junk like that.

Oh well, a coworker is still on TWM from back when it was the only choice. He's using it because everything else is bloaty. Then again, he personally owns something like 300 computers, many of which are VAX.

Re:Stone Age

[mark_lybarger]

...haven't gotten anything done but surf, mess with iTunes and other BS junk like that

and we wonder why jobs are going over seas ;). thoug it does sound like a fairly normal day.

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

a coworker is still on TWM from back when it was the only choice. He's using it because everything else is bloaty.

Point him in the direction of Blackbox. Nearly as slim as TWM, while actually looking reasonably good.

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

i am a pretty focused worker myself.. but i have been sitting here plucking nose hairs instead of writing some code... the thrill of it all....

be thankfull that is all you are waisting your time with.... by the way.. you have something in your nose... let me get that for you my friend..

Re:Stone Age

[conan_albrecht]

You miss the point of computers then... Any geek knows that half of each day must be spent on fiddling with settings to improve performance or GUI by fractions of a percent!

(Back in college, my friends used to say that I'd "accidentally" crash my computer just so I could set it up again...I think we all know this syndrome)

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

Point him in the direction of Blackbox. Nearly as slim as TWM, while actually looking reasonably good.

What do you mean? TWM is really beautiful.

Re:Stone Age

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

...haven't gotten anything done but surf, mess with iTunes and other BS junk like that and we wonder why jobs are going over seas ;). thoug it does sound like a fairly normal day.

Yes, funny but true. Yup, it's offtopic, but the poster makes a good point. In the United States, you are privledged to be able to do this. You are not yet slaves to your jobs, rather, your jobs are slaves to you.

Re:Stone Age

[minusthink]

exactly. there was a quote by the founder of va linux on revolution OS that was pretty funny. he said something like (paraphrasing obviously) "graduate students spend all their time making their computer environment so productive that if they actually ever sat down and worked on their thesis they could finish it in one day."

Re:Stone Age

[be-fan]

In the United States... You are not yet slaves to your jobs, rather, your jobs are slaves to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Are we living in the same United States? Americans work more and vacation less than the fucking Japanese! The Japanese!

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's to say the new technology makes TWM "obsolete"? If he can get his work done faster using TWM, giving him more time with his family and gf and other things than whining on Slashdot about Linux (hear me?), then what's wrong with that?

Personally, I use a really old IceWM release because it's fast, immensely reliable (never, ever crashes), and has no problems running modern apps. Does that make me stubborn? No; I think KDE and GNOME have a great deal to offer, but IceWM does everything I need.

You're a very strange individual. Do you have many friends in the real world?

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but you can quit at any time without commiting suicide.

Re:Stone Age

[Pete]

Heh. When I'm really working on an X11 machine, I use ratpoison. I tell you what, it really helps you to focus entirely on the work and not get distracted ;-).

BTW, in keeping with the subject line of this thread - did anyone else notice that in the article, the writer talks about installing KDE3, but then supplies a screenshot referring to KDE2.2/KOffice1.1? If I didn't already think it a pretty weak article, I'd find that kind of a lazy screenshot substitution mistake to be quite amusing. :-)

Pete.

Re:Stone Age

[Anonymous Coward]

Your have got to be the most idiotic poster ever to hit Slashdot. But then again, you must be telepathic as well since you know how the parent poster feels about TWM.

Has it ever occurred to you that you might not be right about everything? Has it occured to you that maybe the parent poster uses TWM because it works for him? I've seen you say that you believe in using the right tool for the right job. What makes you think this isn't the case for the parent poster? Perhaps you were lying when you made that statement?

In other words, who the hell are you again? Oh yeah, that right wing, Microsoft apologist. Go crawl back into your troll hole.

Re:Mirror

[PakProtector]

Because I want hits and I've never been /.ed before, you insensitive clod!

My servers want to know the strain, too!

Re:Garridge

[Anonymous Coward]

I think both HMV and Virgin Records have a similar version, in .wav format.

Hey you're messing their poll system!

[Anonymous Coward]

1. This page meets my need.
2. This page was easy to find.

I wonder how many would vote 0 and 5..

"Thank you for your input."

Re:Male or female?

[Anonymous Coward]

About the Author
Corey Liu has been a user and administrator of Solaris systems for over six years in Taiwan. He is currently working in the semiconductor industry as an applications engineer.

Novell has Degaza(sp?) the reason

[Locutus]

With Novells purchase of Ximian and the founder of Gnome, could this be why Sun is now looking at KDE????

My guess is that is also has to do with Qt and some users/businesses preference for KDE. It's good to have choice as long as they both still "play" together. IMHO.

LoB

Re:Novell has Degaza(sp?) the reason

[drewness]

First, to help you, it's Miguel de Icaza.

Second, Novell also bought SuSE, which employs a lot of the KDE developers. Really, they (for the moment at least) have some control over both desktops. But keep in mind that any of those people could leave and work somewhere else, and that KDE and Gnome are open source projects, plus other companies have some interest in the direction they take. So, I really doubt that is why Sun is offering it. Actually I think they've had it on their Solaris Freeware CD for quite some time.

Article in a nutshell...

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing GNOME on Solaris: Slow and Painful.

Installing KDE on Solaris: Slow but not so Painful.

This coming from someone who's successfully installed
KDE on Solaris but has yet to successfully install
GNOME on Solaris.

Re:Article in a nutshell...

[Anonymous Coward]

as of solaris 9 8/03, gnome is installed by default.

Re:Article in a nutshell...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that is how I managed to get GNOME to install
on my Sun box successfully. But still... there's something
about installing from source tarballs thats ummm...
something.

(the poster of the top reply).

Re:Male or female?

[mark_lybarger]

from the article...

He is currently working in the semiconductor industry as an applications engineer.

not that many would have read the words on the page. besides the photo with the tank top doesn't appear to be female.

precisely, all you cite is from idiot zealots.

[Anonymous Coward]

those guys were pathetic in their little worthless whiney rants.

Re:precisely, all you cite is from idiot zealots.

[Elektroschock]

They were not the only ones that expericenced heavy problems with RH.

Don't bother with Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[illumin8]

KDE 3.x comes shipped with Solaris 8 or 9 on the Software Companion CD. I highly recommend installing all of this software, and you'll get a fully functional compiled version of KDE that is provided by Sun and supported by Sun. There is also a readme under your /opt/sfw folder that is placed there by the installer and tells you how to add KDE to your desktop selection at the Solaris login screen.

Re:Don't bother with Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[Megaslow]

The article *is* about installing the Sun supplied version of KDE which comes on the Software Companion CD. Nowhere does it mention sunfreeware.com. Also, These packages are NOT supported by Sun, which you are supposed to agree to when you install it. Sun (currently) only provides support for CDE and Gnome.

Re:Don't bother with Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[rking]

The article *is* about installing the Sun supplied version of KDE which comes on the Software Companion CD. Nowhere does it mention sunfreeware.com.

I see. I think what might have confused some of us was this line at the start of the second paragraph of the article:

The easiest way to get the KDE 3.x binaries is to go to the Sun Solaris freeware web site.

The one with the link to sunfreeware.com.

If you're having trouble finding it, it's just above a big screenshot of sunfreeware.com, labeled "Figure 1: Sun Solaris Freeware Web Site".

Re:Don't bother with Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[rking]

Okay, I lied it wasn't sunfreeware.com *blush* it's clearly what the original poster was talking about as sun freeware though, he didn't mention sunfreeware.com.

Re:Don't bother with Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[illumin8]

The article *is* about installing the Sun supplied version of KDE which comes on the Software Companion CD. Nowhere does it mention sunfreeware.com.

The article is kind of confusing because it mentions Sun Freeware as a source of the KDE binaries. I just wanted to clear up the confusion for anyone reading the article.

Re:Mirror

[jbplou]

Its coming up fine, I highly doubt there servers will drop to the power of the /. crowd. Your just a Sun basher.

Degaza(sp?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Degaza? That's a whole nother issue.

I'm still waiting to see..

[msimm]

KDE on Windows! Geesh! ;-)

Re:I'm still waiting to see..

[Haeleth]

I'm still waiting to see KDE on Windows!

What - you mean something like this?

Re:I'm still waiting to see..

[msimm]

Opps. :-)

Re:Mirror

[musikit]

ok.

1. i never said they were having issues. i said if they did have issues then they are retards.

2. i agree sun's main stream webserver should never crash to the power of /.

3. yes i am a sun basher. why? because after i found linux i quickly made the realization that i could do everything solaris can do cheaper. ohh lets not forget that i was a sun beta tester for a prior company and got to see the shit they put out. ohh and lets not forget that their tech support guys don't want to talk to you. i'm sure i'll think of other reasons why i hate sun but i digress

but ...

[wobblie]

is there any way to get anti aliased fonts with Sun's X server? What about true type fonts? I spoose if sun's X server can use a networked font server like xfs true type would not be a problem.

Re:but ...

[carsont]

Try here for instructions on how to use TrueType fonts in Solaris. It's basically the same as using any other font: throw them in a directly, make a 'fonts.dir', then xset +fp .

Anti-aliasing isn't in Xsun yet to my knowledge, though. They added Xrender support in one of the HW updates to Solaris 9 (4/03, maybe? I forget), but anti-aliasing for Xft isn't there yet, as they say vaguely here.

You can always use XFree86 on Solaris, though I've never tried it.

solaris + kde

[chegosaurus]

I've been using the two together since kde 1.1, and it always works just fine. Now and again you might have to tweak a header file or Makefile, but usually the core and 95% of the apps work right out of the box. (Sometimes the early betas just won't build, but I can live with that.)

I'll never understand why Sun went with GNOME over KDE, cos, in terms of stability at least, that's *always* sucked on Solaris. The only shame is that you can't, at least without *major* patching, build KDE with Forte.

Well written software requires very little effort to port from Unix to Unix. It's very rare I find anything written primarily for Linux that won't build on Solaris.

This makes it very frustrating when (usually linux) people can't see further than their own OS and fail to write portable code. It's not much more work really, and people will love you for it.

Re:solaris + kde

[ajs]

The simple, flame-war-free answer is that Sun could not bear the support burden of a C++ GUI toolkit and desktop system for a platform that had two major C++ compilers (Sun's and gcc). Now that the C++ ABI is more entrenched that might not be as much of an issue, but at the time it was a key factor.

Personally, I would have gone with Gnome for other reasons. The architecture is much more open in a component sense (e.g. smaller, replacable parts). Sun has also shown that human factors were huge concern to them, and KDE suffered from having been ahead of Gnome. Sun literally got to write the book on human factors for Gnome, and that ended a LOT of debate before it got started.

I like the way Gnome has shaped up. It started with a lot of catch-up to do with respect to KDE, which was already functional when Gnome was first started. But over the years I have seen that gap narrow tremendously, and I like the Gnome code a great deal more.

Still, both are worthy of praise and use... may we have two of the three best desktops in the world for a good long time to come!

Re:solaris + kde

[Anonymous Coward]

both are worthy of praise and use... may we have two of the three best desktops in the world for a good long time to come!

Oh, come on, OS X isn't that bad... :p

Re:solaris + kde

[IamTheRealMike]

The only shame is that you can't, at least without *major* patching, build KDE with Forte.

Sun have a policy that everything which ships with Solaris must be built with Forte. A major PITA for sure, but an understandable one.

The other reason was that Sun have more engineers that know C well than C++, as far as I know.

Re:solaris + kde

[big tex]

There are KDE 3.1.4 packages built with forte.

Apparently, it's getting better.

Re:solaris + kde

[SkipJackDES]

The Sun Companion CD is built with gcc not Forte. --Skip

Re:xfce4

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, but this article is reserved for a KDE verus GNOME flamewar. Additional desktops aren't required here, especially if they're better.

Thanks

And the Taiwan case

[Elektroschock]

http://www.slat.org/event/redhat-flag-en They removed the Taiwanese flag from KDE to please the Chinese Government. Isn't that opportunism?

Re:And the Taiwan case

[Anonymous Coward]

If we're going to get political about it, how about KDE's reliance on Trolltech's, a member of the Canopy Group alongside SCO?

FreeQT ??

[nurb432]

Is this a new project or a comment on the not truly 'free' QT license?

The license for QT is only free if you make free stuff.. if you intend to charge, you still have to buy a license.

That being said, QT still a much more mature widget set then GTK ( currently.. that can always change down the road ) , and I prefer KDE for the same reasons, maturity and consistence.

Re:FreeQT ??

[be-fan]

The license for QT is only free if you make free stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>
The Qt license is the GPL, which is "truly free." The GPL has restrictions, but they are to preserve freedom. I live in the United States, in a free society. Yet, I am restricted from stealing from my neighbor. Am I less free or more free than in a society that allows me to steal?

native port to OSX

[cmdr_forge]

Does any one know if there is a project to natively port KDE onto OSX?

Re:native port to OSX

[Anonymous Coward]

KDE already runs on OS X thanks to the Fink folks.

I like them both

[billsf]

Pick your favourite and launch it. Then launch the other inside the former. (Gnome -- launch "Gnome panel" KDE, just see if you can start a 'session' within Gnome.) While there will be some non-compatibilities, you can arrange things to where you have what you want on each. Both desktops are excellent and the best of each is certainly the best one can do.

Strip out any really bad incompatibilities and save the setup. You have four places to put panels alone and can ofcourse place them on top of one another. When using a platform under development this saves much of the trouble of trying to depend on one desktop alone. Ofcourse add xterm, aumix and any other applications and utilities not supplied by the desktops.

Re:I like them both

[Anonymous Coward]

Your desktop must be a total nightmare.

Small is beautiful. You can still keep GNOME and/or KDE libs around if you must.

Mod parent down! RTFA!

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you even bother looking at the article? I guess the big screenshot in the article that shows the "Solaris Software Companion CD" wasn't obvious enough for you...

Or the disclaimer on Sun's page

Note: Sun Microsystems, Inc. (Sun) does NOT SUPPORT and has not performed compatibility testing with the freeware products located in the UNSUPPORTED software section of this page, namely the freeware found on the Solaris 9 Software Companion CD.

Incentive scheme

[Elektroschock]

I don't know a commercial software written in gtk. however in the GTK world due to LGPL (FSF says don't use it) license there is so much variety of licenses.

KDE is based on freeqt which is free for gpl apps. this works as an incentive scheme in favour of gpl licenses.

And there are quite a lot companys that use qt, as qt has a non-Linux market as well.

Why shall Trolltech's employees provide their work for free exploitation? Closed source software writers have to pay for the toolkit, nothing wrong with this.

KDE, GNOME, and CDE...

[Anonymous Coward]

I run an Ultra/2 (512MB RAM) with dual 300mhz UltraSPARC procs, and most environments seem sluggish.

I have several X Terminals (mostly dated laptops) and I have found Fluxbox to be the best for thin clients as well as at the console. GNOME was responsive at the console, but on 100mbit, it felt like I was running a 386. Don't get me started with CDE, it should be banned.

I'll give KDE a shot, but I have come to the conclusion less is better. If KDE can be locked down as quickly as FB, and is responsive, it will be added to my users' list of available DE to choose from at logon.

Of course this comes from a person who doesn't really care for GNOME or KDE, no matter what OS or platform it runs on.

What are you smoking?

[ultrabot]

I can't figure why people scream about this (memory of the old licence situation maybe) and not about the kernel or GNU tools, those don't even give you the choice of paying for the closed option.

If/when changes are made to kernel or GNU tools (which is *extremely* rare in mainstream, non-embedded development) the changes are so minor that sharing them doesn't compromise the comptetitive position.

Qt, on the other hand, is a library. It's sole reason for existence is to be linked with applications that companies develop. See the difference?

Re:What are you smoking?

[Roberto]

Extremely rare? Linking proprietary code to the kernel?

Have you been living in a cave, or have you not heard of proprietary drivers?

You need that for every cheap modem sold today. And it cant be fixed because the algorithms implemented are covered by patents.

Re:What are you smoking?

[ultrabot]

Extremely rare? Linking proprietary code to the kernel?

Have you been living in a cave, or have you not heard of proprietary drivers?

Drivers are typically written to enable the use of the kernel. Usually drivers are not the product itself.

Re:What are you smoking?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that must explain why nVidia are falling over themselves to release the source to their drivers!

Get over it, you were wrong. Linking non-GPL code to the kernel is common and it is a problem.

Re:What are you smoking?

[ultrabot]

Get over it, you were wrong. Linking non-GPL code to the kernel is common and it is a problem.

That was not the point. It's a problem for lots of *users*. A GPL'd library is a problem for lots of *companies* that develop software. Especially as there are several UI libraries w/ more free licenses around.

Come on, it can't be that hard to understand...

Re:What are you smoking?

[Tukla]

A GPL'd library is a problem for lots of *companies* that develop software.

That's why the dual licensing is so good. If the GPL is inconvenient for your company, you can pay for the commercial license and not worry about GPL restrictions.

there are several UI libraries w/ more free licenses around.

Seems to me that paying $3000 up front is good business sense if it can save you tens of thousands of dollars in development cost compared to using an inferior more-free library. Of course, the company would then have to make a purchasing decision based on the quality of the technology rather than the marketing, and we know how much businesses hate that.

Re:What are you smoking?

[ultrabot]

Seems to me that paying $3000 up front is good business sense if it can save you tens of thousands of dollars in development cost compared to using an inferior more-free library.

That's a big if. And remember that the license cost is per developer, per annum. If the development spans multiple years (maintenance surely will), the cost can be pretty high.

Re:What are you smoking?

[Tukla]

That's a big if.

Of course, but it's worth a little research.

cost is per developer, per annum.

I don't see any mention of an annual fee to use Qt on Troll Tech's pricing page.

If the development spans multiple years (maintenance surely will), the cost can be pretty high.

But if it's a one-time fee, then the cost drops from small to insignificant as time goes on.

Trolltech and Canopy

[Ralph Yarro]

If we're going to get political about it, how about KDE's reliance on Trolltech's, a member of the Canopy Group alongside SCO?

The parent post is a troll and should be modded into oblivion!

Here at Trolltech we take our independence very very seriously and I can assure you that the Canopy Group has no control or influence over us of any kind. In fact we are not controlled by anyone outside of our own board of directors.

I hope that has helped to reasure everyone.

Regards

Director Ralphie

Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[IGnatius T Foobar]

It's really a shame that Sun took so long to join the party. They do this stuff better than IBM does. For all the success they've achieved, IBM's integration of various open source tools on AIX is... well... as ugly as the rest of AIX. Sun got it right and very few people seem to know about it. When you install the Software Companion CD in its entirety, a Solaris 8 or 9 box looks and quacks like a familiar Linux machine. The whole GNU toolchain is there, GNOME and KDE are both loaded, and everything acts just the way you expect it to.

IBM could learn a few things here.

Re:Sunfreeware's version of KDE

[illumin8]

When you install the Software Companion CD in its entirety, a Solaris 8 or 9 box looks and quacks like a familiar Linux machine.

You're absolutely correct. Sun should be marketing the Software Companion CD as a benefit of using Solaris. I've heard a lot of Linux users that are new to Solaris complain about things like "where the hell is GCC?" Having the Software Companion CD installed makes any sysadmin's life about 10 times easier.

Dual license is ok

[nurb432]

I didn't mean to imply some crime had occurred by the 'dual licensing' of QT..

Only that the way the parent put it 'freeqt' it sounded like an alternative kit designed to mimic QT and be 100% free. And from what I remember there was a project to do this very thing, before Trolltech changed the licensing to 'dual'.. Then it lost steam after that...

Yes.. the trolltech developers deserve to eat too....

Re:Dual license is ok

[alonso]

If I remeber well the project was called armony.

Re:Dual license is ok

[Anonymous Coward]

the project name was "harmony" (see lists.kde.org - kde-freeqt) but is dead for a very long time.

Dual License.. not GPL

[nurb432]

Need to check your facts, last time I looked QT was not GPL you cant do anything you want..

You can develop free software based on it with out buying a license.

You cant extend it, nor can you write commercial software with out licenses...

This might have changed since then of course..

Re:Dual License.. not GPL

[be-fan]

Need to check your facts, last time I looked QT was not GPL you cant do anything you want..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;

When was the last time you looked? Qt was GPL'ed more than three years ago, starting with version 2.2

Re:Dual License.. not GPL

[Anonymous Coward]

You're wrong, to put it bluntly.

The free version of QT is under the GPL. That means that you can do what you like with it - change, extend, incorporate into commercial applications, port to the C64 - if you follow the terms of the GPL.

The commercial version has a commercial license, which allows you to use it in ways not permitted by the GPL, such as distributing it without source code, or linking to it from a non-free application.

However, your claim that it is not free is simply incorrect. Note, for example, that Trolltech have not objected to the people who are porting the free QT to Windows, even though Trolltech themselves only provide a commercial QT for Windows. That's because, under the terms of the GPL, you're free to port QT to Windows if your Windows QT is released under the GPL.

TROLL ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent down--OCG is a known troll and this is a troll post.

Re:TROLL ALERT

[Overly Critical Guy]

Prove it. Prove I'm a "known troll" (my karma is Excellent, by the way).

In other words, you disagree with my opinion, so you want people to mod me down.

Sorry, but it doesn't change my opinion of X and its users.

Re:TROLL ALERT

[Anonymous Coward]

Trivial to prove. All one has to do is look at your imflammatory language and attitude to determine that you're a troll. You even troll with your .sig line. You get a strange thrill out of people replying to your outrageous statements.

In other words, you're a troll because you fit the definition of one. Not because people disagree with your "opinions" (which you like to bandy about as though they were facts). Then again, even more damning are your own words (just a small sample).

Sorry, but the fact that you have excellent karma doesn't change the fact that you're a troll. You're just a bit more skilled at karma whoring than the average garden variety troll. Face it. You've been exposed. No one will ever take you seriously any more.

Re:TROLL ALERT

[Overly Critical Guy]

Trivial to prove. All one has to do is look at your imflammatory language and attitude to determine that you're a troll.

"Imflammatory?" Haha.

Which translates to: "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to call it inflammatory. Sorry, imflammatory."

You even troll with your .sig line.

How dare I criticize the two-party system in America. You got me.

You get a strange thrill out of people replying to your outrageous statements.

If that is true, why do you reply? Let me guess, you're "pointing it out for others," right? Haha.

In other words, you're a troll because you fit the definition of one. Not because people disagree with your "opinions" (which you like to bandy about as though they were facts).

In other words, stating my opinion means I'm bandying them around as facts. Guess what? The nature of having an opinion means that, yes, I consider them correct. Contratulations for being obvious!

Then again, even more damning are your own words [slashdot.org] (just a small sample).

The fact that you track past posts like some sort of stalker is the most frightening thing of all. Let's see more of these "samples." Oh, that's right, it was a dismissive statement meant to put the burden of work on someone else to actually come up with anything, because you couldn't do it.

If all you have to offer for your "evidence" is me criticizing someone for not paying attention, you're even more pathetic than I originally assumed.

Sorry, but the fact that you have excellent karma doesn't change the fact that you're a troll. You're just a bit more skilled at karma whoring than the average garden variety troll. Face it. You've been exposed. No one will ever take you seriously any more.

Yet I get modded up. What are you going to do? You're the guy who goes to my posts and says "KNOWN TROLL, MOD ACCORDINGLY," which is hilarious. They do that to everybody. Next.

Off-topic but highly interesting

[thanasakis]

It seems that one of Sun's goals is to enter the desktop market as a serious player.Check out project looking glass. They mention translucent windows and 3D windowing capabilities in the whitepapers. They sure are exploring an interesting possibility there.

Can the usability of the desktop be enhanced using a 3D window space paradigm instead of a 2D???

Re:Off-topic but highly interesting

[FyRE666]

I viewed the videos up there of Looking Glass, and have to say that although it looks very nice I really can't see how it would aid productivity. So you can twist windows around the Y axis so they take up less space; so what?! If I need more space I use another desktop or iconize a few windows. Much faster to get back to them than trying to manipulate a 3D window using a 2D pointing device (mouse).

I'm all for people researching alternatives to the Windows+Icons+Desktop paradigm, but I don't think Sun's idea will ever make it out onto the business desktop...

Re:I'm not a kde lover but..

[Roberto]

You are not a KDE lover, yes. You are also a silly person who confuses difficulty with complexity, and system administration with tinkering.

Unless you are arrogant enough to presume that just because they are using a Sun box you know what they are doing, or that for every task anyone can tackle on a Sun box fluxbox is the answer, you are also wrong.

How, pray tell, do you browse the web using fluxbox? How do you send email using fluxbox?

You dont. You use other apps. KDE provides all those apps in a single comprehensive integrated package.

For those who actually use their computers to do work, such solutions have a place.

BTW: I once had librarians (60-year-old computer phobic old grannies, really a living stereotype), using KDE 1 on Solaris. Had they been forced to use CDE, they would have had a second menopause.

Conectiva decision on KDE

[keeboo]

The user decides, not SUN, not a zelotish brazilian company.

Likewise the user may decide which Linux distribution to install.
Now if you start calling Conectiva names just because you don't like KDE, the one being "zelotish" is you.

KDE works well on Solaris

[AaronW]

I have been running KDE on Solaris for quite some time. I wrote the ARTS Solaris sound daemon so I could listen to my ogg files. Generally I have had few problems with KDE on Solaris. The only problems I have are missing features in Sun's X implementation (i.e. no RENDER) and the huge number of additional libraries I need to compile to get everything working. I've also come across a number of nasty bugs in GCC when building KDE, but GCC 3.3.1+ seems to work fairly well.

I think the only reason Sun chose Gnome over KDE was the QT licensing issue. Other than that, KDE on Solaris rocks. It's also fairly stable.

I don't know why Sun has stuck with that god-aweful CDE for so long. CDE just plain sucks.

I've never downloaded the pre-built binaries, though. I need to control where it gets installed since it's running in a corporate environment and I feel more comfortable having compiled it myself. As it is, I usually need to patch a few files anyway for our environment.

Since I made it available, we've had many engineers switch from CDE to KDE. We had one lone GNOME user, but he switched as well (Sun's GNOME was too slow compared with KDE).

Re:KDE works well on Solaris

[Whip]

Solaris has actually supported the RENDER extension since the first or second maintenance release of Solaris 9... give yourself an upgrade and give it a try...

Re:The Gnome translate-o-matic *updated*

[Anonymous Coward]

The Problem with your article is that most (80%) of the readers will just read the headlines:

- Unlike KDE, Gnome is free
- Nautilus is much better than konqueror.
- Gnome is easier to use
- Gnome has eye candy

And they will remember _those_ So instead of getting the message that you try to deliver they will just get advertisement for the opposite of your opinion ;-(

I would start every headline with "MYTH:"

Who cares if it's KDE or GNOME . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

. . . as long as they use emacs.

Installing Solaris KDE as non-root user?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a pain-free way to install KDE 3.x or GNOME 2.x on Solaris 8 if you don't have root privileges?

I hate CDE, so I've tried installing GNOME (via GARNOME) and KDE (via Konstruct) but both gave too many errors. After spending several lunch hours without much progress, I ended up installing FVWM. FVWM is definitely better than CDE, but it lacks some of the polish (and apps!) that come from a modern desktop like KDE or GNOME.

Re:Installing Solaris KDE as non-root user?

[SkipJackDES]

You won't be able to install KDE without root privilges. There are several binaries which need to be installed setuid root. They really really need to be setuid root. Really. :-)

--Skip

Re:Installing Solaris KDE as non-root user?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised. GARNOME (on Linux) allows you to install GNOME in your home directory.

Re:Installing Solaris KDE as non-root user?

[SkipJackDES]

Surprising as it may be, that's the situation. --Skip

Re:The Gnome translate-o-matic *updated*

[RPoet]

And even if they do read the whole thing, the slew of spalling arrors won't make a good impression of KDE.

"Crippled" = "Doesn't Look Like KDE"?

[EXTomar]

Red Hat's goal with "Bluecurve" is to provide a "user experience" that was indestingushable between Gnome and KDE. To do this you have to throw out all of the K-isms. Its not Konquer or Galeon or Mozilla...its a Web Browser.

I never understood what the issue behind this was. RH took KDE and Gnome and extended it into a blended environment. The Gnome team was fine with that. However the KDE took offense? I don't get it.

Re:"Crippled" = "Doesn't Look Like KDE"?

[Enahs]

GNOME also suffered from the cuts, and some people were offended. Try Googling for it sometime.

Re:"Crippled" = "Doesn't Look Like KDE"?

[EXTomar]

So far I'm finding stuff like "...why did RH cripple KDE to be like Gnome?!..." So far it sounds to me like people were miffed that they were touching their prized KDE brand. I haven't found a gtk or gnome project contributor that complained that Gnome was being modified into Bluecurve but that doesn't mean that the complaints don't exist.

With OSS projects, the best thing you can hope for is someone other project picks up the parts and starts modifying. RH along with anyone else can modify the hell out of KDE. If this isn't what KDE wants they need to stop releasing it under the OSS flag.

Once again, I ask why was it such an offense to KDE to modify KDE?

Re:"Crippled" = "Doesn't Look Like KDE"?

[cozziewozzie]

Once again, I ask why was it such an offense to KDE to modify KDE?


Because the 'modified' version of Gnome worked great, whereas the modified version of KDE was crap. RedHat gave their users an option of using the Gnome default (where everything worked great), or the KDE alternative (where everything took three times longer to start because the proper libraries weren't being loaded, where the most important parts of KDE were not present...)

The point is that the RedHat version of KDE was inferior in every way to the vanilla version and KDE developers didn't like that kind of 'support'. It's not about desktop themes, you know.

Re:"Crippled" = "Doesn't Look Like KDE"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, SUSE's GNOME used to be a fucking disgrace... barely Q&Aed and just compiled. Lindows doesn't include GNOME at all; same with Caldera (SCO).

The GNOME camp didn't launch jihads... didn't spend their entire waking hours badmouthing these companies for making a choice to go with KDE. They looked at what was wrong with their software, and improved it until it was better than the competition -- leading to the huge uptake in business use. Yet when Red Hat shipped an ENCHANCED version of KDE that had some *minor* bugs (albeit irritating), they were flamed to hell and back by a bunch of deluded infantile zealots, who will never be more than bedroom coders with bad attitudes.

Quite frankly, the KDE project represents the worst the open source world has to offer and they do more to damage the image of FOSS software than they do good.

Re:"Recently began to favour GNOME"...

[SkipJackDES]

Factually incorrect and misleading: - A Qt developer license does NOT cost USD $3000, but USD $1200 out of the box. That is, without any volume discounts, which, AFAIK, are applied in increments of 5, 10, 20, etc. The real license cost per developer, in a large scale enterprise, would be close to $500 per developer, if not less. Sticker price never applies for enterprise licenses. Nice try, though. Have you considered working for Bill ? --Skip

Re:KDE, GNOME, and CDE... Don't care

[ender_wiggin30]

Got a couple sys admins at work like that. It didnot stop me from compiling fvwm and installing my directory then using it as a window manager. Drop the attitude and listen to your users. They are the reason u r there.

Re:As a Solaris KDE user... of an outdated Solaris

[chargen]

ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/stable/latest/contrib/So laris/

This shows only precompiled KDE packages for Solaris 8. Users of Solaris 9 will have to compile their own. Seems like a lot of software doesn't even come pre-compiled for Solaris 9. :-(

-Pete

Re:KDE on Solaris 9 x86

[Anonymous Coward]

> I see that even on Solaris the KDE fuckwits still cannot get their dependencies correct.

You mean Sun fuckwits? Guess they fucked up while making these packages.

Re:As a Solaris KDE user... of an outdated Solaris

[SkipJackDES]

It runs fine on Solaris 9. The missing things are XRandR, XRender, Xft/FreeType2 (which are not available on Solaris 8). I will start providing Solaris 9 packages starting with KDE 3.2. --Skip

get it in RPM format for Solaris

[emptybody]

Just do a search for sunrpms on google.

Re:"Recently began to favour GNOME"...

[inc_x]

> TrollTech is also vulnerable to takeover by > companies hostile to Free software and good > corporate lawyers who can blow holes in the > laughable FreeQt agreements. Being bought out by Sun is a scary prospect indeed.

Re:As a Solaris KDE user... of an outdated Solaris

[dpoulson]

First off, Solaris 8 binaries will run perfectly well on Solaris 9, thats what binary compatability is all about!

Secondly, when you get the Solaris 9 media kit, there is a CD included with KDE on it, ready to install with a nice GUI install program (well, as nice as a java program can be!)

I'm running KDE 3.1.3 at work on Solaris 9 and it all works beautifully. Now, if only they wouldn't insist on using MS Exchange for email and suchlike, then I can get rid of the slow SunPCIii card!

IHBT. Again.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Imflammatory?" Haha.

Which translates to: "I don't like your opinion, so I'm going to call it inflammatory. Sorry, imflammatory."

If you go into a room full of German Jews and say "Hitler was a great man!" I'm sure you would consider that those people would just be reacting to someone's opinion and that it wouldn't be the least bit inflammatory (BTW, nice try at trolling the spelling, Mr. Pedant Spelling Nazi--I've seen you call others pedants for correcting spelling, so fuck you).

You even troll with your .sig line.

How dare I criticize the two-party system in America. You got me.

Previous .sig lines (for your enjoyment):

Security problems and holes ... in linux
If cable theft is stealing ... Face it, it's theft.

Yeah, so don't try acting like your latest .sig line is the only one you've ever had. Fuckwit. Unlike a lot of the moderators here I have been paying attention.

You get a strange thrill out of people replying to your outrageous statements.

If that is true, why do you reply? Let me guess, you're "pointing it out for others," right? Haha.

Yet here you are again, replying to me. Funny how that works, eh? If you're so above it all, why are you replying? Oh yeah, to set the record straight. Yeah, right.

In other words, stating my opinion means I'm bandying them around as facts. Guess what? The nature of having an opinion means that, yes, I consider them correct. Contratulations for being obvious!

Congratulations on being an idiot! You've just admitted that you think your opinions are facts! Need I say more?

The fact that you track past posts like some sort of stalker is the most frightening thing of all. Let's see more of these "samples." Oh, that's right, it was a dismissive statement meant to put the burden of work on someone else to actually come up with anything, because you couldn't do it.

Bullshit. All anyone has to do is read your journal and the comments to the entries to see evidence. All one has to do is look at your old posts to see just how blatant you are. I'm sure you're quaking in your boots because I can look at publicly available information. Sure.

If all you have to offer for your "evidence" is me criticizing someone for not paying attention, you're even more pathetic than I originally assumed.

You really are pathetic. Try to spin it any way you like, but you all but admit to trolling with the exchange:

Why don't you... (Score:0)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 20, @08:08PM (#6750405)
Try trolling? Just spend most of your time finding and pointing out every little mistake the sites runners make.

It is a guaranteed way to get easy karma points.

Re:Why don't you... (Score:2)
by Overly Critical Guy (663429) on Wednesday August 20, @08:42PM (#6750630)
(Last Journal: Tuesday September 23, @09:18AM)
Somebody isn't paying attention.

Go ahead and try to spin that as innocent. Douchebag.

Yet I get modded up. What are you going to do? You're the guy who goes to my posts and says "KNOWN TROLL, MOD ACCORDINGLY," which is hilarious. They do that to everybody.

You are seriously deluded. If you think I'm the only person who points out your trolls you're mistaken. And of course there are moderators who don't bother to check if someone is a known troll or even moderate trolls up deliberately (a minority, but a persistent one). Sometimes known trolls karma whore and post non-trolls in ord

YHBT.

[Anonymous Coward]

YHL. HAND.

YHBT.

[Anonymous Coward]

YHL. HAND.