Slashdot Mirror


Writing an End to the Bio of BIOS?

An anonymous reader writes "Intel and Microsoft are gearing up to move toward the first major overhaul of the innermost workings of the personal computer. The companies will begin promoting a technology specification called EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) as a new system for starting up a PC's hardware before its operating system begins loading."

101 of 511 comments (clear)

  1. Well if Microsoft's involved.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...it HAS to be bad, and an attempt to kill Linux.

    That pretty much sums up the rest of the posts on this. Thanks, let's move on to the next story.

    1. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by GeckoFood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...it HAS to be bad, and an attempt to kill Linux.

      There is no mention that this will be tailored to Windows in the article, but MS's hearty endorsement is a suspicious indicator of such. If so, would this simply become a matter of the BIOS not allowing anything but "acceptable" OSes to boot? That's where my nickel gets bet.

      --
      Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
    2. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by IWorkForMorons · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...would this simply become a matter of the BIOS not allowing anything but "acceptable" OSes to boot?

      Actually, they're called "trusted" OSes. And if you can't trust Microsoft, then who can you trust?

    3. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by gstevens · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You guys are all forgetting one thing: Intel is involved, and they have a lot invested in Linux. There are millions of x86 boxes out there running Linux instead of Sun, IBM, HP, etc boxes running some flavor of Unix. Intel knows this, and they like it. They're not stupid...

    4. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by Necron69 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Given the bias on Slashdot, I'm assuming most of you don't know that Linux already runs on Itanium boxes with EFI. All of HP's Itanium boxes have EFI on them, so it doesn't have anything to with banning the use of Linux.

      - Necron69

    5. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by nkpatel · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is true. We develop these Itanium systems, and all of my boxes are multi-boot Windows, Linux, and HP-UX.

    6. Re:Well if Microsoft's involved.... by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 2
      RTFA.

      A deal with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies would allow the operating system to directly control hardware. It also raises concerns over who controls the software in PCs

      Bold added.

      Again, RTFA.

      If you still don't 'get it', then you should not be allowed on a computer or you are a Microsoft astroturfer.

      Please install GNU/Linux and try again.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  2. OF? by ChristTrekker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not just use Open Firmware?

    1. Re:OF? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 4, Informative

      because we're not all using mac's. hello. welcome to the real world.

      Exactly. Because most of us are using UltraSparcs and other Unix machines that use OpenFirmware. Hello! McFly?!

    2. Re:OF? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2

      Oh sure. Like all the high paid engineers at Intel and Microsoft are going to tell their bosses, "No let's not reinvent the wheel, people on the internet have already got a solution." They're going to discount it as much as possible...and their bosses will agree. The whole crux of the Microsoft fight against Linux and Open Source is that it invalidates one of the essential marketing idioms the software giant relies on: that market share alone is enough reason to trust the expertise of a software company.

      Besides, if they went with an Open Firmware solution, ANYBODY could write one. Which means vendors would go with the cheapest solution. Which, if Phoenix Bios is any indication, would be complete crap.

      Me, I'm all for an alternative...especially one that will tie in to the OS and allow for quicker boots, integration WITH the OS for boot management, allow for runtime management of boot devices (to power your sound card on and off without rebooting for when Midi "hangs," etc)...so long as they keep out the DRM and the rest of the crap.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    3. Re:OF? by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Insightful
      My guess is that OpenFirmware is seen as cryptic. The deal with current BIOSes is that you hold down DEL and up comes a nice, friendly, menu where you can configure anything in the BIOS you want.

      Whereas most people used to OpenFirmware know the default interface involves writing things like:

      1 1 + dup dup + dup + + base !

      ...and that's just to get it to give you numbers in decimal.

      Not that there aren't ways around this, obviously. For starters, there's no reason why DEL can't just bring up a GUI (or arrow-keys/ESC/Enter text interface), it doesn't have to bring up a command line. The point though is that OpenFirmware is seen as hard, it has a serious image problem.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    4. Re:OF? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Informative

      What's to stop SCO from butting their ass in and requiring a change in the spec that only allows approved operating systems to run in OF?

      What's to stop all the actual OF members from either voting SCO down or ignoring their spec changes? Like it or not, SCO/Caldera *used* to be a reasonable company in the computing world. It should then come as no surprise that their on many technology standard boards. But when you consider the fact that they are probably the only OpenFirmware member that doesn't have an implementation (Their market is Intel after all), their ideas probably won't carry much weight.

    5. Re:OF? by cloudmaster · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's a mature, existing standard. If consumer PCs were meant to have OF, they would've gotten it a long time ago. Therefore, a new "standard" should be developed and left undocumented.

    6. Re:OF? by colinleroy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Same for Sun and other archs. That's a standard.

      --
      blah
    7. Re:OF? by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hey, I know how important bragging rights are. I've sunk several thousand dollars into restoring a 1973 Volkswagen Super Beetle. There's nothing like a slow, loud, underpowered, kind-of-gay rolling coffin that you built yourself!

      I support hobby computing. But I don't fool myself into thinking that what works for us nerds will work for the majority of the population. Most people are better off having Microsoft make their decisions for them. Hell, my PC runs windows...because in the time it would have taken me to get Linux running on it, I could have sanded down two quater panels and replaced a seat.

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    8. Re:OF? by hitmark · · Score: 2, Funny

      like someone else pointed out, the real hog in booting is the os, evne linux takes some time in getting going. but atleast there one can at a glance see what is holding up the traffic but in windows your just looking at the gray and blue or fisher-price boot screen and waiting for that loadbar to hit 100%. what feels faster?

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    9. Re:OF? by MarcQuadra · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well if you think about it OF really makes needing that GUI unnescessary. On an OF machine the BIOS is a lot smarter, it can 'make decisions' better than an 8-bit PC BIOS can, decisions like memory timings, disk configurations, network booting, etc. I've got both kinds of machines right here (OF Macs and PC-BIOS PCs) and I can tell you it's a LOT nicer to just trust your machine than to have to go in dicking with memory timings and FSB multipliers, etc. when you install new hardware. Also, the number one function of the BIOS GUI is to switch boot devices, which Apple has already solved on 'newworld' machines (all Macs since iMac'97) with OF, just hold the option key at boot and you get a nice GUI with all detected bootable partitions, icons showing their OS and partition name.

      --
      "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
  3. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So what happens when Intel and Microsoft decide they don't want anymore competition?

    1. Re:So? by fitten · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Intel's main concern is selling chips. If the chip runs MS Windows, fine... that's a sold chip. If the chip runs Linux, fine... that's a sold chip. No matter the OS you run on the Intel chip, you *still bought an Intel chip*.

      Why would Intel *not* want another OS to run on an Intel platform? There is no amount of tinfoil that can justify it.

    2. Re:So? by whereiswaldo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why would Intel *not* want another OS to run on an Intel platform?

      You forgot the other side of the equation pretty quickly.

      Microsoft, the largest software manufacturer in the world, conviced monopolist, and vendor of the OS which runs on over 90% of the desktop computers in the world, could stipulate to Intel that they do not allow 'other' operating systems to run on their chips. Or, that they require a certain technology in the software for the chip to function, which Microsoft conveniently protects using patents and/or DMCA.
      Now you see how easy it is. No tin foil required.

  4. EFI sucks by SuperQ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I have several IA-64 systems at work. IA-64 requires EFI (part of the intel spec). It's a major pain in the ass.. you have to have a dos fat formated filesystem to store bootloaders, and other utilities as a primary partition.. besides the fact that they changed the normal dos partition format for EFI. I wish they would have just ported OpenBoot.

    1. Re:EFI sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Licensing issues straight up then FAT = paid license nowdays :D

    2. Re:EFI sucks by zdzichu · · Score: 5, Interesting

      EFI sucks. Even Linus says so.

      --
      :wq
    3. Re:EFI sucks by Ethicator · · Score: 2, Informative

      If EFI requires a FAT fs, what are the implications now that M$ are planning on charging a licensing fee for any product what uses a FAT fs ?

  5. "Before loading your operating system" by Hej · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wonder if this new BIOS replacement will be designed based on the assumption that everybody is running the most current version of Windows.

    1. Re:"Before loading your operating system" by swordboy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Check out the link in my sig. If I am speculating correctly, then Intel will be manufacturing processors that will come with oodles of NVRAM. Oddly, Microsoft is launching a version of Windows called Elements to go along with Intel's upcoming "stackable" Pentium 5. While the market believes that the stacking design is for the addition of 64-bit expansion, I believe it is for NVRAM expansion.

      Elements will reside completely in NVRAM. Not only will this allow for great enhancements to power consumption, it also eliminates the need for a BIOS.

      --

      Life is the leading cause of death in America.
  6. What about AMD and Linux by cybermancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I see Microsoft and Intel working together I think of the platform lock-in of WinTel. This makes me wonder if they plan to have secret hooks offering advantages to their products. It will of course only be a matter of time for the likes of AMD and Linux to get up to speed, but sometimes a little time is all it takes to improve a market advantage through unfair practices.

    --
    "Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
    1. Re:What about AMD and Linux by Negative+Response · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hmm, I am not too sure. Intel is not the problem, Microsoft is. If they give AMD an choice between complete compliance or no Windows support for their hardwares, what would AMD choose?

    2. Re:What about AMD and Linux by Cr3d3nd0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not to step outside the Slashdot standard but remember, we do live in an open market. If Microsoft and intel try to pull this kind of stunt, even the most basic computer user is going to notice. ("Why can't I download my mp3's of the net etc.") Then along comes a company that sells a board that's compatible with the newer processors but lacks the DRM and guess what all the computer manufacturers will chose. Before you put on your tin hats remember that we still control what we purchase, and we only put up with what we allow big business to get away with.

      --
      This is not a sig
    3. Re:What about AMD and Linux by the_mad_poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That works great in market situations where people have a tiny clue as to what they're buying. The PC industry is, for the most part, clueless from stem to stern.

      Joe Schmoe goes to buy a new car. He gets in a Ford Focus and the fast talking lipman tries to sell it. But Joe Schmoe doesn't like it, it's too slow.

      The Lipman puts Joe in a Focus SVT. Okay, not as slow, but Joe's not very comfortable.

      Lipman puts Joe in a Mustang, but that's not comfortable either, so he puts him in a Taurus. The Taurus isn't much Joe's style, but it's not too terribly sluggish and it's comfy, so he takes an SeS. Joe has made an intelligent buying decision by weighing his desires against his wallet and picked a reasonable compromise between all of the things that are important to him. Joe's car will work everywhere, and if someone tries to interfere with that, he'll notice. Joe is reasonably clued about this market.

      Now, Joe needs a computer. Joe don't know electronics, so Joe goes to Circuit City and starts looking at computers. Joe knew what "200 hp" meant and even had a reasonable understanding of how the torque came into play in his new Taurus. But, Joe doesn't know how the combination of an "onboard video card" and the processor and the "memory" and the speed of the hard drive all come into play. Joe knows he wants to watch DVDs and he wants to surf for porn. The Lipman in Circuit City tells him that this new Compaq has everything he needs. Joe pretends to know what he's looking at, then buys it because it has a soundcard and a DVD-ROM. Joe doesn't know what DRM is, nobody mentioned it, and since he has a DRM'ed system, he'll almost never notice things not working because it always silently grants him access because he's "trusted". Anything that doesn't work will be written off as "broken".

      The geeks, on the other hand, being a horribly underwhelming minority, are screaming bloody murder because they can't access half the sites on the net. Google sucks now and we can no longer listen to mp3 samples or watch movie trailers.

      Tens of millions of Joes never know anything about the troubles of a couple hundred thousand geeks. DRM has been slipped into everything because the target market has no clue what it is, nobody tells them, and they don't think to ask.

      So yes, it's an open market. But, it's an open market controlled by idiots.

      --
      Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
  7. Of course... by SharpFang · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course that woukld include obligatory, non-overridable DRM chip driver?
    Big Brother Has You!

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    1. Re:Of course... by Alsee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      but then SB can just as well tell their Taiwan factory to produce two versions

      Nope.

      The way Trusted Computing works is that it checks for a cryptographic signature. If you don't have that signature then that software/hardware won't work at all in Trusted mode. You can only get that signature from the group holding the Root private key. They will simply refuse to give you a signature unless you sign 42 million contracts.

      If you ever do make a non-restricted version that can undetectably pass for the "secure version" then the first thing that do is throw your key on a revokation list and all of the hardware/software linked to your key that you've ever produced instantly drops dead in Trusted mode. The second thing they do is sue you for violating the 42 millions contracts you signed.

      It is specificlly done in that order - if you release something that can break the DRM Trust system that is an "Emergency Response Situation". Their first priority is to is damage control and to seal the breach. They don't care if they cause 5 million computers to drop dead so long as the breach is sealed. They can sue you at leisure.

      So no, it will be impossible to import a non-restricted version that will work in Trusted mode. If it doesn't enforce DRM then it will not work in Trusted mode.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  8. can interact with EFI on a serial console? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing I've always hated about the standard PC BIOS is that you need a keyboard, video and mouse (kvm) to configure the thing.

    It'd be great if EFI initialised a serial console if detected that there was no KVM attached to the system. It'd be great for custom-made PC routers and servers on generic hardware running Linux or xBSD.

    1. Re:can interact with EFI on a serial console? by ultrapenguin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Most server machines support BIOS over serial port. And not your most expensive ones, either.
      I have some low-end NEC servers, and the BIOS (by default) comes configured to check for a console on serial port, and appear there, instead of the primary monitor.

      And this has been around for quite a while.

  9. Of interest to console makers? by Channard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Particularly Microsoft themselves - if X-Box reaches a third iteration - I doubt this'll make X-Box 2. It may well allow them to put a stop to the old trick of soldering in a new bios chip that takes precedence over the onboard bios, thereby allowing the user to run all sorts of software, legal oses and programs and illegal pirate copies.

  10. DRM, here we come! by cozziewozzie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not really surprising. Microsoft will need some support from the BIOS to implement their DRM 'features'. I wonder how much this will impact Linux and other free systems. After all, MS now have enough XBox experience to ensure that only their operating system can be run.

    I have a bad feeling that one day we might have 'consumer-oriented' windows computers which will be cheaper and will only run Windows...

  11. OF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's been on the cards for some years. Anything has to be better than a chunk of 16bit Real Mode code providing a whole bunch of functions that no one uses any more.

    What I'd like to see is a more intelligent system. We still have to load the boot manager as a 512 byte chunk from sector 0 of the "first" hard drive for crying out loud! If Intel get this right, we should have intelligence right at the start. Something like GRUB or XOSL running right from ROM would be great. The ability to control hardware properly at boot..

    OpenFirmware would be better but it looks like Intel won't be going down that route. We can only hope for the best..

  12. OpenFirmware by AKAImBatman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OpenFirmware is older than the hills, well tested, loved by all, and used on just about every machine EXCEPT Intel. Is anyone getting a sense of NIH syndrome?

  13. back in my day... by PoPRawkZ · · Score: 2, Funny

    I remember when we had to flash our BIOS off a 5 1/4 inch magnetic storage media and if there was a brown out like there so often were back before we had nuclear fission, you'd have to replace your EPROM! You kids have it so good these days.

    --
    peace,
    -Grokent
  14. Why? by mekkab · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The excuse "WEll, current BIOS systems is just patch written upon patch written upon patch. ITs a mess."

    But it works. Is an EFI system going to be markedly faster? When you tell me you are loading device drivers at the BIOS level, that tells me "No"- you are creeping the OS lower.

    So whats the deal?
    from Intel's EFI web site: Together, these provide a standard environment for booting an operating system and running pre-boot applications.

    AHhhh! Running PRE-BOOT operations! This sounds like a lame way to shoe-horn in DRM or something similar onto my machine before it loads up.

    Maybe I'm acting paranoid, but the slowest thing on my windows computer is WINDOWS, not the bios- that runs pretty fast.

    --
    In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
    1. Re:Why? by jrexilius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the more indirect point/question is that perhaps the current pre-boot operations cant effectively support their DRM desires and they need an extended pre-boot model to lock out unwanted software.

      An earlier post had a link to a threaded discussion with linux core people, Linus, and a guy named Mark from Intel. He gave a background summary of why they are going down this path but he was obviously speaking to his audience and left out mention of any DRM considerations. I am sure the topic was examined as they were developing this model so I am curious/concerned that there may be more to that story.

  15. Microsoft Logic by Alien54 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Because then Microsoft could not get it's Digital Rights management technology implemented into the hardware, and thereby lock out Open Source systems to one degree or another.

    There's been lots of worry about this sort of thing, given MS busines practices in the past.

    Freedom is a hard concept for some folks to deal with

    I hope that this turns into a financial disaster for them.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    1. Re:Microsoft Logic by Abjifyicious · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Well it's not like the Linux community is completely helpless in the legal department.

      If MS did try and bully hardware manufacturers into altering hardware to lock out Open Source systems, I would think that Red Hat, Suse, Mandrake, etc. would all be after them with lawsuits, and if MS tried to get a law passed requiring DRM in the hardware or whatever, I'm guessing there would be at least several thousand letters sent to politicians from Angry Linux Users protesting such a law. And then there are all those companies that use Open Source Software who'd be pissed off if they were forced to switch to MS software just 'cause MS said so. Not to mention the fact that the government itself is starting to switch to Linux.

      Seriously folks, we're not just gonna wake up one day and find that all our favorite OS's have been outlawed.

    2. Re:Microsoft Logic by diakka · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Seriously folks, we're not just gonna wake up one day and find that all our favorite OS's have been outlawed.


      If everyone had your attitude, then I feel confident that day would come to pass.

      It's the paranoid and vigilant who will work to protect freedom. The fact that this discussion is taking place should be a warning to MS that we will not take any such lock out attempt lying down. Should it be the case that EFI is not used for lock out purposes, you'll surely say, "See, you were just paranoid". But however it turns out, paranoia is indisputably the safer option.

      BTW, anyone have Linux booting on the all-in-one Gateway 610 Media Center desktop that was mentioned in the article? Perhaps that could give us further insight.
      --
      -- Knowledge shared is power lost. -- Aleister Crowley
    3. Re:Microsoft Logic by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Seriously folks, we're not just gonna wake up one day and find that all our favorite OS's have been outlawed."

      You know, back in 99 I heard a similiar argument by the vast majority of slashdotters in regards to a new propossed law called the DMCA.

      I myself called RMS and the EFF, lunitics and mentioned it here in regards to it. I got modded +4 informitive. My responses were on the line of ya, like they are going to sue innocent software developers who want to watch DVD's or those who bad mouth a company.

      Come on get real. The dmca will never be used to cancel free speech.....

      Well, I was shocked to find out not only was RMS and the EFF right but it was far far more worse then imagined.

      Why can't I watch my own dvd's?

      You know what? What would MS and the MPAA do if I wrote a patch for Lilo or grub that uses the ultra secret boot signature? I would get thrown in the federal "slam me in the ass" prison!

      I just posted another post mentioning how Linux will be still supported for some time like OS/2 is from many bios's. But still I am extremely cautous.

      ALso look at soyo with the ACPI installed by default on some of their motherboards due to a bug. Linux and FreeBSD at the time could not use ACPI properly with it and it caused a major headache. The same could happen if pallidium is on by default so manufactors could avoid headaches with Linux support. I doubt this but its certainly possible.

  16. Figures. by alecto · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No mention at all in the article of what has to be one of the biggest reasons for the push to change the boot process: Digital Restrictions Management/Trusted Computing/Palladium/Next Generation Secure Computing Base. (Notice how the name gets changed every time it becomes obvious what it really is.)

  17. Palladium and trusted computing by cybermancer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I noticed that the first PC to use EFI was a Gateway "Media Center" desktop. For those who do not know, Media Center is Microsoft's first attempt at highly integration of DRM (Digital Rights Management) into the core functionality of the OS. Knowing the agenda for Palladiam and so called "Trusted Computing" (Who do you trust today?) I would really think twice before letting the likes of Microsoft and Intel (remember the P4 CPU ID?) rewrite my PC at the BIOS level.

    The "competition" between Pheonix BIOS and EFI could be the beginning of the split between closed platform "Trusted" PC's and open platform PC's. I would not be surprised if EFI has provisions (at some future point) to require the OS is signed. That rules out Linux, BSD, etc.

    Naturally they are doing all this for our best interests.

    --
    "Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
    1. Re:Palladium and trusted computing by 3lb4rt0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Quoting the Phoenix article linked to in the body of the main article

      "Future versions will take aim at servers, blades, desktops and embedded systems such as consumer electronics, with plans to introduce digital rights management (DRM) and more closely integrate the BIOS with Windows."

      Gonna end up between a rock and a hard place as far as DRM is concerned.

      Those media co.s have to try and squeeze every penny.

    2. Re:Palladium and trusted computing by cybermancer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      . . .but unless I need this DRM'ed crap to get on the internet. . .

      It is only a matter of time before there are two Internet's co-existing. One that is only accessible to those with DRM, and one that is only accessible to everyone. Eventually with time (unless the tides are turned) all the commercial content will migrate to the DRM network, and DRM enabled PC's will no longer be able to access the non DRM one because it is too "Dangerous".

      If lobbiests get their way then it will soon be illegal to provide content (web page, music, software, etc.) not controlled by DRM. Anyone who wants true freedom will need two PC's in their home, one with DRM, one without. And they will be even more incompatible then PC and MAC or Windows and Linux.

      --
      "Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
    3. Re:Palladium and trusted computing by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Interesting

      remember the P4 CPU ID?

      Yes, I remember the P3's CPU ID. I remember turning it off in the BIOS on first boot of my (then) brand new P3 700, and I remember it staying off and having absolutely no effect on me at all.

      I also remember not reading about any invasions of privacy involving the CPU ID. To be honest, I'm surprised that you mentioned it, given that nothing much really came of it. Sure, perhaps they had designs on something nefarious or underhand - but it came to nothing. That may well be a good indication of what will happen if they try anything similar this time round...

    4. Re:Palladium and trusted computing by poot_rootbeer · · Score: 3, Informative

      For those who do not know, Media Center is Microsoft's first attempt at highly integration of DRM (Digital Rights Management) into the core functionality of the OS.

      ???

      The DRM hooks may be present in XP Media Center Edition, but that doesn't mean you have to use them. I've been running the OS for weeks, and haven't even had to sign up for a Passport.

      My HP Media Center PC even came with software to convert video files captured by MS'S PVR codec into free-and-clear MPEG's.

  18. A change is really needed by dido · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The original PC BIOS has incredibly remained basically unchanged since the days of the IBM PC, more than twenty years ago. We have all that legacy stuff in our PC's firmware that harks back to the days of MS-DOS and its limitations are being stretched to the breaking point by hacks and kluges (e.g. the disk size limits imposed by the real-mode BIOS calls). It would be nice to see it all go away for good.

    On the other hand, it's Microsoft and Intel working together on this. This could very well be the next step towards the groundwork for Palladium, and more ugly DRM embedded into the lowest levels of PC hardware, that may well prevent anyone from running any operating system on commodity PC hardware besides that of Microsoft, among other baneful things. I'm not willing to bet that this new specification doesn't lay this type of groundwork in any way.

    --
    Qu'on me donne six lignes écrites de la main du plus honnête homme, j'y trouverai de quoi le faire pendre.
    1. Re:A change is really needed by GirTheRobot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The answer to this is really simple. Not everyone will be interested in this DRM crap, or even running Windows. China is forcefully moving towards Linux, and if Linux cannot run on these new boards, their govt. will buy/support/develop hardware that does. With an installed base that large (and relatively cash strapped), you KNOW that there will be cheap and relatively open hardware to run your choice of OS.

      Screw MS and Intel. I have not purchased software or hardware from either in almost a decade. We have a free global market on our side, and their products are not necessary. These are just 2 US companies in a global market. Let the sheep enslave themselves. We have options.

  19. Re:So? - What do you mean? by Markvs · · Score: 4, Funny

    What do you mean when? I thought that decision was made back in 1994!

    --
    46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
  20. Registration-free spec by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Informative

    The download page requires a fake name and email, but you can skip that and get the latest version (1.10-001) here. (Total karma whore link: EFI homepage)

    The license isn't actually too bad - it just says that if you provide them feedback, then you also grant them the right to implement your idea.

  21. Coming: The Year of the Infected Bios by Alien54 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Seriously, the more complex you make the code in the bios, the more chance for security flaws built into the hardware itself.

    Imagine the horror of having to patch a system by swapping out chips. I think I recall some old time viruses that basically screwed up the bios royally, and which were not easily cleanable, to one degree or another.

    Remember, this design is supposed to be a feature, not a flaw.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    1. Re:Coming: The Year of the Infected Bios by PygmySurfer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Imagine the horror of having to patch a system by swapping out chips. I think I recall some old time viruses that basically screwed up the bios royally, and which were not easily cleanable, to one degree or another.

      Haven't BIOSes been using Flash memory for years now? Couldn't we just download the latest BIOS, and flash the chip? You know, kinda like we do now to fix bugs/add features.

    2. Re:Coming: The Year of the Infected Bios by bhtooefr · · Score: 3, Informative

      Those viruses (Win32.CIH, for one) DID attack Flash BIOSes. They rendered the system unbootable (unless there was an emergency backup on the mobo), so that the chip had to be thrown in a running box and flashed.

  22. Re:What about AMD and Sun? by nutznboltz · · Score: 2, Informative

    Seems it's what's happening now. http://www.x86-64.org/

  23. Intel would never adopt OF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Take ACPI, for example. If you take out the P of ACPI, and stick to the configuration features, you end up with something very similar to (some parts of) OF. A device name tree? OF has it. An intermediate language for device initialization? OF has it.

    OF has only one difference to ACPI: OF works. Devices are made with valid machine-language drivers, so that the OS doesn't have to patch it upon boot, etc, etc, etc. Don't take me wrong, I really believed that ACPI would be great, but when people started implementing it, we saw what mess it became. It was one of the reasons I moved away of the x86 platform. It is just a bunch of hacks.

    So why Intel created ACPI? Because while ACPI is also "open", Intel can control it. And Intel knows that while it keeps the power of defining standards, it will be the leading chip manufacturer: it helps to keep it top of mind in terms of consumer ICs.

    For those who don't know what OF is, take a look at this.

    1. Re:Intel would never adopt OF by Burnon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, earlier someone posted a link to a summrary of a discussion on the Linux kernel list. An Intel guy pointed out some issues with the Openfirmware model that make some sense.

      The way I read it is, hardware manufacturers want cheap products, and nobody wants to get locked in to supporting just one system architecture for an expansion card.

      With something like openfirmware, apparently you have to have a ROM big enough to contain valid code that can run on both IA-32 and IA-64 and PPC, etc., or you end up with things like PC-only and Mac-only cards, which isn't cheap, either. So as nasty as ACPI has been from an implementation point of view, it seems like it does some stuff that open firmware can't do. Same can be said for EFI. Seems like a hell of a problem to me - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

      Now, that said, no arguments about the other fringe benefits Intel gets from pushing the standard.

      P.S. To my mind, Linus' post on the issue in the thread seems like something that your average software dude (self included) might come up with. Come up with simple hardware specs that don't need ROM code, and standardize on THAT. I'd kill for that kind of utopia in my line of work. I don't work in PCs, I work in embedded systems. All the hardware guys talk about gaining a competitive edge by locking people into their proprietary hardware via a software interface that they control. Same thing going on here - it's not the software dudes in the industry that need convincing - it's the hardware and business dudes who aren't looking to the future, but to the next product.

    2. Re:Intel would never adopt OF by Kymermosst · · Score: 4, Informative

      With something like openfirmware, apparently you have to have a ROM big enough to contain valid code that can run on both IA-32 and IA-64 and PPC, etc., or you end up with things like PC-only and Mac-only cards...

      Nope, plug-in drivers on Open Firmware compatible cards are written in FCODE, which is a Forth bytecode language.

      Completely machine independent.

      The article says that Open Firmware was considered, but they didn't want to drop ACPI.

      Frankly, Open Firmware has a lot of features you are just never going to see on home machines/cheap server boxes as long as Intel and MS are in charge. I'd rather have OF on my server boxes, hence why I chose a Sun machine.

      --
      "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  24. Gah! DRM in BIOS? Check please! by CarrionBird · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The day that takes hold is the day I find a new platform, it's not like x86 is the only game in town.

    Heck, older SGI Octanes are going for peanuts (comapared to thier original price) on ebay, and they are mostly upgradeable to current spec. And Apple is over there just drooling for my cash.

    There really shouldn't be that much going on in BIOS, that's what the whole B part means, ya know.
    --
    Free Mac Mini Yeah, it's
    1. Re:Gah! DRM in BIOS? Check please! by cdf123 · · Score: 2, Funny
      ... There really shouldn't be that much going on in BIOS, that's what the whole B part means, ya know.

      Bloated?

  25. What about Windows and Linux by nycsubway · · Score: 3, Funny

    I think Windows and Linux should form a joint platform. Windows OS with Linux firmware, called Windex!

  26. Re:What about Apple? by NineNine · · Score: 4, Funny

    I agree. I see the same thing with Apple. Every time I buy a Macintosh, I have the hardest time getting W2K to run on them. Damn lock in.

  27. OF is based on Forth? by eer · · Score: 2, Funny
    Forth?

    Wasn't Postscript good enough for them?

    No wonder it's not hit mainstream.

    1. Re:OF is based on Forth? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Forth?

      Wasn't Postscript good enough for them?


      Do you have any idea WTF you're talking about? Postscript is a document display language. Forth is a general purpose, turing complete, mathematics language. Quite a difference there.

      Besides, it's not like you actually have to be able to code Forth to use OpenFirmware. It's just a feature.

      No wonder it's not hit mainstream.

      That is, if you don't consider Apple, Sun, IBM, HP OR JUST ABOUT EVERY FREAKING COMPUTER MAKER OTHER THAN INTEL mainstream.

    2. Re:OF is based on Forth? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My apologies. Unfortunately, your post came across a bit trollish, so I responded as such.

      I liked Sun's pre-boot shell just fine...but I haven't had much use for it in the past decade. I welcome more sophisticated pre-boot console systems, but I do NOT welcome entry points for hackers and virus writers to screw with my system before my OS has a chance to get started.

      In the many years that OpenBoot/OpenFirmware has existed, it has generally proved itself to be secure except in situations of physical compromise (a damning situation anyway). This makes it a far more ideal choice than a new firmware standard that has not yet withstood a trial by fire.

      Question is, what's the OF crowd doing about automated registration (and qualification against "certified" model/versions) of DMA and PCI bus device controllers? If I decide, at some point, that I no longer "trust" Intel intelligent network interface cards (because their firmware isn't using a GPL-friendly version of S/WAN in it's integrated IPSEC implementation), what will OF do to tell me / warn me that a "tainted" device has been added to a system I'm trying to trust (ASP hosted Apache server, or whatever)?

      I'm not really sure this is a necessary feature. You (as the admin of your box) have made a decision to add a piece of hardware. Relying on the firmware to warn you that you may be crossing the barrier of your ideals, is out of scope for such technology.

      Most "driver signing" to date, has been implemented by Microsoft as an attempt to improve their image. With computers other than PCs, users would never dream of installing hardware that wasn't first approved by the vendor. Microsoft however, is a software only company and thus by default has very little control over hardware. So Microsoft set to the task of adding signed drivers to their OS to prevent non-Microsoft hardware from being installed.

      Now I won't argue that OpenFirmware on Intel wouldn't run into the same problem as Microsoft. However, it would be relatively simple to add signature support to an Intel implementation to accomplish the same goal as Microsoft.

  28. sounds like Open Firmware by inditek · · Score: 2, Informative

    This sounds like what Apple/IBM/Motorola/Sun started doing a long time ago with Open Firmware:

    http://www.openfirmware.org/
    http://playground. sun.com/1275/
    http://developer.apple.com/technote s/tn/tn1061.htm l
    http://bananajr6000.apple.com/

  29. EFI == DRM? by AwesomeJT · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I don't trust anything Microsoft writes. I certainly don't want them writing BIOS level stuff before their buggy OS gets loaded.

    However, I'm wondering if this is how they will integrate digital rights management that the MPAA and RIAA want soo badly forced on to consumers computers? This could be it. Everyone's computer must authenticate with the Master Server in Redmond. :-)

    Beyond that, this just means we'll blue screen faster or on detection of a non-MS operating system.

    Personally I find fault with the logic of it's old therefore it's broken.

    --
    SPAM solution made easy: 1 spammer, 5 cords of rope, 5 hourses, and fireworks. Be creative.
  30. No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by t0ny · · Score: 5, Interesting
    So in other words, since its not specifically good for Linux it shouldnt be done? Everybody needs to understand a few things about PCs and the BIOS as well-

    This stuff runs essentially the same as it did in the 80s. Sure, it uses more memory, bigger hard drives, etc, but its all just built from the same thing. Which leads into #2-

    The solutions which were created to deal with things (such as the BIOS) were only intended, by their creators, to be temporary solutions until somebody designed something better. However, the IBM PC became a standard, and everything since then been built upon that foundation.

    So, for the first time in decades, people are looking at the PC and trying to make it better. Why cant we have computers which boot up in seconds, rather than minutes? Why cant we have power saving which actually works? Those features, and many more, will only be possible with a redesign. The old way of doing things carries too much baggage.

    Its sad, because I had always thought computer people always look for the best way to do things. Unfortunately, computer people are just like everyone else, and all too willing to accept the status quo.

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    1. Re:No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by jejones · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So in other words, since its not specifically good for Linux it shouldnt be done?

      That's an inaccurate paraphrase. The concern, and a valid one, IMHO, is that MS will attempt to use this to lock out competition. IOW, the question is whether this is going to be designed to be specifically bad for Linux.

    2. Re:No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by fingusernames · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why doesn't the computer boot in seconds? Well, my latest Windows PC gets past the BIOS in a couple seconds. It then starts loading the OS. With Windows, the hard drive grinds and grinds and grinds, and then grinds some more, as it loads who knows what. It takes much, much longer to get Windows into memory and operating than the BIOS. Seems Windows might be the candidate for the complete re-write if fast bootup is your goal.

      What I would like to see in the default standard PC BIOS is remote control via ethernet. Be able to reboot a machine remotely and get console access from the moment the machine powers up, without an add-in board.

      Larry

    3. Re:No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by Wise+Dragon · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's already been designed, it already works with linux, and it's pretty neat. Right now you have to buy an Itanium machine to use it, though.

    4. Re:No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by Dylan_t_p · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ah the paranioa of slashdot....don't get me wrong I'm not some micosoft fan boy, but why is it that everything that micrsoft does has to be some ploy to wipe out linux, if you could see past that (not to mention rtfa) you'd see the good implications that this has instead of just, help!! microsoft is out to get us

    5. Re:No progress for ANYBODY!!!! by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Funny
      Nice but then you would end up with an Itanium???

  31. All main boards & BIOS will be from China, by NewToNix · · Score: 2, Insightful
    And other places that do not want to be tied into the US controll/monopoly.

    You can see the way it is going now, open source adopted by other (I'm USA) governments (this is good, IMO).

    The same will be true of the BIOS chips & even MB chip sets - they (forgin governments) are sharp enough to know it's a bad idea to have your system locked down (or into) something some one else has controll over.

    So we buy all our stuff from overseas now, for price reasons. Soon we will be buying from them for freedom reasons (this may NOT bode well for the price we may have to pay in the future).

    The day may be coming when we have to smuggle BIOS chips and/or Main Boards into the US, just to try to keep some freedom.

    This may not be quite as "tinfoil hat" as it sounds now. Remember no one is looking out for your freedom - that task is up to you.

    NewToNix - I lent my sig to a really nice government man, but he never returned it.

  32. What lock-in? by Valdrax · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Someone above has posted a link from Kernel Traffic which explains quite nicely the fact that Linux already has early support for EFI as part of the IA-64 port (which has been backported to IA-32) and has a nice lenghty explanation from Intel about why they made certain design decisions that they did.

    It all ends with a statement by an Intel person that none of what they're pushing as a standard is patented so that it can be as openly and widely adopted as possible. I'm pretty sure that no vendor lock-in will happen here.

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  33. This may seem strange at first.. but by Deleriux · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Have you ever thought that the BIOS industry is trying to head down the way the mobile phone industry is? I mean, for example (in the UK anyway) your mobile phone is probably the biggest big brother device you own. If you buy a pay-as-you-go phone or a contract phone you need to phone the vendor after your contract has ended (or never, on pay-as-you-go) to get a code that 'unlocks' your phone, allowing you to insert any sim card from a competitor they want. Imagine the potential contracts you could develop using a similar method for PC's? Buy one of these hire purchase pc's that get paid out over 3 years (many families and people on budgets do this, probably dont need to tell anyone here its not a bargain as in 3 years that machine will be pretty worthless to other peoples standards). Then, after the 3 years is up.. you can pay another $40/40 in 'admin' charge to be sent a usb flash key or other data storage medium that unlocks your machine enabling another type of o/s? You could massively decrease the cost of o/s and pc in a home market while locking home users into draconian contract schemes disallowing certain applications, or o/s's (covered by DRM of course), after which time when the pc is worthless you can have all the features you want.. most home users not knowing any different will probably settle for a return scheme where they pay up for another 2 years for the upgraded version of the machine and so it goes on and on and on. I mean, if you really think about it it really doesnt seem such a crazy idea. It worked with mobile phones and an implementation like this in the future doesnt actually look that far off now.

  34. EFI IS CRAP!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    EFI would be a total nightmare.

    Vendor-supplied drivers without source are going to be BUGGY.

    They are going to be doubly buggy if they are run with a compiler that has a buggy back-end.

    And that back-end is going to be buggy if it's for some random bytecode that isn't widely used except for some silly EFI thing and is tested exclusively with just a few versions of Windows and _maybe_ occasionally on Linux.

    Face it: firmware bytecode is a total braindamage. The only thing that works is _source_code_ that can be fixed, and lacking that, we're better off with a well-defined ISA that people are used to and that has stable simple compilers.

    In other words: x86 object code is a better choice than some random new bytecode. It's a "bytecode" too, after all. And it's one that is stable and runs fast on most hardware. But as long as it's some kind of binary (and byte code is binary, don't make any mistake about it), it's going to always be broken.

    EFI is doing all the wrong things. Trying to fix BIOSes by being "more generic". It's going to be a total nightmare if you go down that path.

    What will work is:

    standard hardware interfaces. Instead of working on bytecode interpreters, make the f*cking hardware definition instead, and make it SANE and PUBLIC! So that we can write drivers that work, and that come with source so that we can fix them when somebody has buggy hardware.

    DO NOT MAKE ANOTHER FRIGGING BYTECODE INTERPRETER!

    Didn't Intel learn anything from past mistakes? ACPI was supposed to be "simple". Codswallop.

    PCI works, because it had standard, and documented, hardware interfaces. The interfaces aren't well specified enough to write a PCI disk driver, of course, but they _are_ good enough to do discovery and a lot of things.

    Intel _could_ make a "PCI disk controller interface definition", and it will work. The way USB does actually work, and UHCI was actually a fair standard, even if it left _way_ too much to software.

    Source code. LinuxBIOS works today, and is a lot more flexible than EFI will _ever_ be.
    Compatibility. Make hardware that works with old drivers and old BIOSes. This works, just like cmdrtaco works his love sausage into rob malda every evening. The fact that Intel forgot about that with ia-64 is not an excuse to make _more_ mistakes.

    Don't screw this up. EFI is not going in the right direction.

  35. This is PS/2 2.0 by RealProgrammer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, not PlayStation. "Personal System /2", IBM's attempt in 1985-86 to rewrite the PC Industry Standard Architecture into their own proprietary version. They charged a measely 5% licensing fee (in a market where margins were already in that range).

    I predict this will die because:

    1. Hardware incompatibility with somebody
    2. It will be slooow to boot
    3. It already makes my tin hat glow

    Oh, and Microsoft is drifting into irrelevance.

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  36. What about Sun's PROM by little+alfalfa · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've always thought that Sun's PROM setup was much better than anything on any Wintel box. Serial console is standard. Booting your OS only requires configuring which disk to use. Hardware test tools built in. What's wrong with that?

  37. Not true ! by CmdrGravy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't know what Windows XP is like booting up but I have 2 pretty much identical machines one of which runs Win2k and one of which runs Mandrake 9.2

    Quite often I turn them both on at the same time and I can always log into Gnome around 30-40 seconds faster than I can log into Win2K.

  38. Technology and Control by molafson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I use a mac, you insensitive clod!

    However, it has been obvious enough for the past few years that Microsoft, Intel, Dell et al. are pushing to reformulate the PC to become a "home appliance." Many consumers look forward to this eventuality, as the appliance-computer will focus on ease-of-use. However, these consumers are being hoodwinked. What they don't understand is that the increasing ease-of-use will be bought at the cost of their freedom.

    Technological development often follows this pattern. As technologies become mainstream, they are often constrained and stifled. Their possible uses are severely limited not only to suit the "lowest common denominator" of user, but also to reflect the interests of big business and the bureaucracy.

    For more on this, see Ursula Franklin's work which is incredibly insightful.

  39. Read the EFI specs by jander · · Score: 2, Informative

    First off - if you haven't already, read the EFI specs: http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/index.htm

    This has a good overview of what efi is and entails, as well as the specifications for it.

    There are some good things about it - hardware drivers are easier to develop for it, it allows booting off of non-standard devices, and in some ways very similar to openFirmware. There is also linux support for efi (at least on IA64)

    However, it has some serious drawbacks:
    The potential is there to implement DRM, and attempt to "lock out" non-signed binaries, etc...
    It requires a 100 Mb efi (FAT) partition (so it appears useless for diskless servers)
    It appears to me at least that there are some potential serious security flaws to the implementation

    Overall, EFI doesn't add anything that LinuxBIOS doesn't (except that EFI has been "blessed" by Microsoft), and it appears to be intel's way of locking in the BIOS market.

    --
    An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure
  40. Sounds like something alphas had way back when by PalmKiller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nothing to fear I think, Remember the bootloader for alpha processors that microsoft required to be flashed to boot NT? Basically it was nt bootloader instead of the alpha console. Well it was supposed to only boot windows, but with some engineering it booted milo, which booted linux. this mostly stemed from alpha having a console that set up hardware for booting unix style, someone also made a bootloader for linux for that firmware, I think it was called aboot or something like that for the console boot. Actually alpha had a much cooler way of handling hardware than a bios, it could actually set up and control hardware in intesting ways, so I am all for it if this is what they are going for.

  41. The real scoop by salesgeek · · Score: 4, Funny

    Whats the big deal here? Everyone knows bios is obsolete. It doesn't start with the all powerful internet letters "e" or "i". It doesn't have an embedded web browser. It can't play downloadable games. It even sounds all 80's - logo, DOS, bios, ROM... Not sexy. So here's the marketing redesign:

    * Start with a leter "e" or "i". "e" is more powerful because it evokes environmentalist images of birds singing, clean water, air, beaches. I is too industrial... Let's go with E
    * No StudlyCaps - Too 90s
    * Avoid anything that sounds like a computer part from the movie Tron. To 80s.
    * Add features that journalists want: pre-os software load (we don't want the OPERATING SYSTEM RUNNING THE COMPUTER), DRM, Support for hard drive loaded modules, and OnStar w/GPS for convenient assistance for law enforcement.

    --
    -- $G
  42. Well, actually, yes. by khasim · · Score: 2, Insightful
    If it is not good for Linux, then it shouldn't be done.
    After all, Linux runs on just about EVERY platform out there. From wrist watches to mainframes.
    So, if there is something about this solution that RESTRICTS Linux's access, then isn't that sufficient warning that there are problems in this "solution"?
    Is it possible to get the benefits proposed by this solution WITHOUT those restrictions?
    Its sad, because I had always thought computer people always look for the best way to do things. Unfortunately, computer people are just like everyone else, and all too willing to accept the status quo.

    Most of us do. But each person has a different idea of what is the "best way" to do something. That's why we have KDE and GNOME and all the others. That's why we have all those editors.
    You list shorter boot times and better power savings. It appears that these are important to you. It appears that Linux compatibility is less important to you than those.
    To others, that is reversed. They view Linux compatibility as more imporant than shorter boot times and better power savings.
    Does that make them "wrong"?
    You're posting on a pro-Linux site, asking why a solution that restricts Linux isn't popular here. While on a Microsoft-centric site, the response would be different.
    It's all ones and zeros. There is no "right" or "wrong". Only design decisions based upon someone's criteria.
  43. Machine Boot Speed by Inhibit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Why cant we have computers which boot up in seconds, rather than minutes?"

    Maybe you're just useing the wrong operating system.. mine does boot up in seconds. And yes, if your entire well thought out argument is "but maybe it'll boot faster (insert sparkly eyes)!" I really don't need a redesign with DRM and driver preloading.. which sounds slower.

    --
    You're reading Slashdot. Of course you like Linux and pc hardware
  44. Good things about EFI... by Abraxis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Without mentioning my previous employer by name, I spent most of 2003 working extensively with EFI.

    I really don't think it's the terror people are making it out to be, despite MS's involvement.

    EFI is essentially taking the higher level driver stuff and pushing it down into the system firmware. I think this could have cool benefits for Linux (and any other operating system, or anybody coding an OS).

    For example:
    If EFI becomes widespread, in theory you may never have to worry about installing a hardware driver again (for Linux or any other OS). EFI has an interpreter for EBC (EFI byte code). EBC drivers can be stored in the firmware of a pci/pcix card. When the system boots EFI interprets the EBC driver on the card, and presto! the new hardware is working on whatever EFI platform you are running it on. And since EFI provides a standard way to interface the hardware, the OS could operate without the need for further device drivers.

    By the way, if you want to know more about EFI, you can score the specs here:
    http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/agree.h tm

  45. EFI is useful by dlapine · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you run ia64 (all 5 of us :) ) you already run EFI. For some of you out there who may not have actually seen EFI in action, I'd thought I provide some small examples of what it looks like.

    EFI does a running check of the hardware that it understands, drivers for which were provided by the Motherboard maker.

    Here's a snapshot of the EFI SCAN on my INTEL Tiger4 system.:

    EFI version 1.10 [14.61] Build flags: EFI64 Running on Intel(R) Itanium(R) 2 processor EFI_DEBUG
    EFI IA-64 SDV/FDK (BIOS CallBacks) [Wed Jan 1 23:33:30 2003] - INTEL
    Cache Enabled. This image MainEntry is at address 000000007FA02000
    Searching for EFI 1.1 SCSI driver....
    Scsi(Pun0,Lun0) MAXTOR ATLASU320_18_SCAB120 (320 MBytes/sec)
    Scsi(Pun1,Lun0) MAXTOR ATLASU320_73_SCAB120 (320 MBytes/sec)
    Scsi(Pun2,Lun0) MAXTOR ATLASU320_73_SCAB120 (320 MBytes/sec)
    Scsi(Pun6,Lun0) ESG-SHV
    Invoking PxeDhcp4 protocol to obtain IP address.

    At the end of this, I get a menu that I can manually select from (cursor up and down), or let it automatically try the options(which can be modified to suit the user's needs). Here's a snapsnot:

    EFI Boot Manager ver 1.10 [14.61]

    Please select a boot option

    Network Boot/Pci(1|0|0)/Mac(0007E9D8147A)
    Linux
    Floppy/Pci(1F|1)/Ata(Primary,Slave)
    CD/DVD ROM/Pci(1F|1)/Ata(Primary,Master)
    EFI Shell [Built-in]
    Boot option maintenance menu

    Use ^ and v to change option(s). Use Enter to select an option

    As you can see, EFI has detected the network card, a bootable linux partition, the floppy (LS240 in this case), and the cdrom drive. Anything you can detect, you can boot off from.

    The EFI shell option brings you into a shell. Once in the shell, you can easily switch to another filesystem by executing a changefilesystem command, similar to msdos:

    fs1:

    The shell prompt (for filesystem 0, which is the first filesystem EFI finds, whether its on a floppy, a cdrom, a harddrive, usb key, whatever)

    fs0:\>

    The shell looks like a dos shell, but runs commands that the motherboard manufacturer includes, such as "edit" "ls" "cat" "cp" "mount" and others. These commands live in ROM.

    EFI understands the FAT32 filesystem and can perform operations on files living there including editing. EFI can access any FAT32 on any device EFI has a built-in driver for, and any device that the user can obtain an EFI driver for.

    Another nice feature is that you can create a partition on the disk that efi will use to hold more commands, or updated commands, or drivers for newer hardware. These extra commands when then be available to you at boot time.

    To the user, EFI looks almost like an built-in mini OS that understands enough of the hardware to give you several boot options, as well as the ability to manipulate files on the devices it sees.

    I've seen no evidence of DRM support, or OS lock-in, but that certainly doesn't rule out the possibility. The thing is, EFI is enough of a standard that the user might have the possibility of replacing the stock EFI with some other version to meet their personal needs. This would certainly put us ahead of where we are with current vendor lockin on motherboard bios.

    --
    The Internet has no garbage collection
  46. Along with... by mykepredko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    IBM, Hitachi, Fujitsu and Siemens. IBM offers 32 bit systems based on EFI as well (I believe written by AMI).

    I've been working with EFI based systems for three years now. Nicer than BIOS/MS-DOS for test weenies like me to develop code for.

    Have a Happy New Year!

    myke

  47. Re:How did you do that? by Tackhead · · Score: 3, Interesting
    > I wouldn't risk moving a chip into a motherboard that is already up and running. I'd be worried about damaging that motherboard and ending up with two dead systems.

    If the OS isn't using BIOS, this is actually safe, with two caveats:

    1) The OS shouldn't be making BIOS calls. Last thing you want is to be in the middle of a hard drive write operation when you yank the chip. (This risk is negligible for modern OSes)

    2) Use a proper PLCC extractor for the chip. Shorting out contacts or breaking the socket with a screwdriver is bad. Pulling the chip properly is safe. You're just cutting/restoring power to the voltage, ground, and signal leads of the chip within milliseconds of each other -- the same way you are every time you power the machine up or down.

    For the record, yes, YMMV, but yes, I've done this, and yes, it worked. (I was an I-Opener h4x0r; this was an PC masquerading as an embedded system that lacked a floppy, and for which later versions of the BIOS wouldn't boot from a hard drive. The "hot flash" was needed under those circumstances - boot a machine with a hard drive and a "good" BIOS, remove "good" chip while system powered up. Insert "bad" BIOS chip extracted from a nonbootable unit into empty socket of powered-up "good" machine. Reflash "bad" BIOS chip with data extracted from "good" BIOS chip. Power down. Insert "good" chip into your machine. Insert reflashed chip into formerly-nonbootable machine.)

    I wouldn't recommend it as standard procedure, but if you don't have an EPROM/EEPROM burner, hot-swapping BIOS chips between live machines is a viable field expedient.

  48. But that wasn't a BIOS problem by SalesEngineer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Those 'BIOS destroyer' viruses worked because of how Intel engineered a particular reference design, not due to a BIOS flaw.

    The Intel reference design motherboard of the day used a software general purpose input/output (GPIO) pin to control if the flash was in read-ony or reprogramming mode. This was a departure from the normal designs of the time, which used a hardware jumper to protect the flash ROM.

    At the time, everybody making boards in Taiwan did little more that copy the reference design ... so they took the design with the flash reprogramming GPIO as-is.

    Somebody hacked/reverse-engineered/leaked the pin configuration from the Intel reference design. This lead to the virus. The fact the virus worked on so many systems is that the Intel chipset was very popular, hence the reference design got copied a lot.

    Now it's much harder to pull this type of virus off. Different motherboard designers use different methods to protect against this. Intel's answer was to combine a hardware jumper with their own proprietary encryption system on their motherboards.

  49. Is this the end of widely usable Linux machines? by Animats · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The basic question is this: will mainstream machines sold in retail channels still be able to run a non-Microsoft OS?

    There are several ways EFI could discourage Linux use:

    • The boot firmware might refuse to boot anything other than a signed operating system. The XBox is that way now. Microsoft would like that, but it's a bit too blatant and might attract unwanted antitrust attention, especially in the European Union.
    • Dual booting probably won't work for Microsoft operating systems. That's quite likely with Palladium-type DRM. Interposing a new boot loader breaks the chain of trust between the firmware and the OS. A Microsoft OS can tell that an unauthorized component has run before it loaded, and can refuse to run. Even if it runs, it won't let you access "protected content" (movies, music, etc.). This will discourage casual Linux use. You'll have to dedicate a machine to Linux.
    • The boot firmware might require some technology for which Microsoft has intellectual property rights. Microsoft's new push on enforcing their rights to long-name FAT file systems indicates a step in this direction. Does EFI require a long-name FAT file system? If it does, you won't be able to build a bootable Linux image without paying Microsoft. You'd probably have to build Linux images using a Microsoft machine. So the Linux-only user won't be able to build a bootable image from source.
    • There may be undocumented proprietary aspects to EFI that make it hard to write to. Watch for incorporation by reference of some Microsoft standard into the EFI standard. This is already a major problem with graphics cards.

    It's a subtle strategy. It's not going to be impossible to boot Linux, but it looks like it's about to become more difficult.

    It will still be possible to build machines that run Linux, and there will be companies that do so and preload Linux. But they'll make up their own distribution, like the Thiz Linux you find at Wal-Mart. End user installation of Linux will decrease. Red Hat's air supply will be cut off.

    Once you see the whole strategy, you realize just how clever Microsoft is being about this. It's not so blatant as to provoke screams from the industry, but it's enough to put a big dent in Linux installs.

  50. Actually ... no by SalesEngineer · · Score: 2, Informative

    RedHat & other distros already support EFI booting into IA64. The boot process isn't different from IA32 to IA64 (the spec is hardware-agnostic), and I know it's already been verified working on IA32 EFI systems.

  51. XP hibernation by pilkul · · Score: 2, Informative

    XP has hibernation support (AFAIK most/all? versions of W2K don't) --- i.e. it can just dump the contents of the RAM to the disk and load it up again. The feature is reliable enough that usually instead of shutting down I just hibernate. Counting from the point that I press the power button, it takes only about 10-15 seconds to boot up.

  52. Why this is dangerous by bizcoach · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Well if Microsoft's involved ...it HAS to be bad, and an attempt to kill Linux.

    Even if it's not directly an intentional attempt to "kill Linux" (why would the Intel engineers who designed it be interested in that!?), there can be no doubt that Microsoft is trying to do what they can to make sure that the next generation of pre-boot software for PCs will contain whatever is needed to make DRM work.

    This will not stop you from running GNU/Linux or some other Free Software OS, but if a significant percentage of computer users ever get hooked on that DRM stuff, it will become hard to convince them to switch to a Free Software OS where they cannot legally access DRM'd content.

  53. Re:Not true ! (i call bullshit) by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    boots in a small fraction of the time

    If by "boot" you mean "starts the GUI", then yes.

    However you're completely ignoring the fact that even after giving you a UI, XP is still working its guts out trying to finish loading the other "less imperative" system drivers/services/what-have-you.

    Yeah, to most "users" it "feels like" it's finished booting, but you know - some OSs have actually finished loading all services and system drivers by the time they load the UI, and the ONLY thing they're loading, are UI specific drivers/services/applications.

    And they STILL beat the pants of Windows in a boot-race.

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
  54. So where is AMD in this? by glitch23 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I didn't read the article but I don't see anyone mentioning AMD in this other than that they are not involved in the design of this new BIOS. The question I have is why? Why wouldn't AMD want to be involved? I'm sure if 2 CPU manufacturers are involved it would help calm of the nerves of everyone on /. Maybe Intel and MS kicked AMD out of the discussion. It's hard to say. Maybe we should tell AMD to get involved?

    --
    this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address