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Apple Users Threaten to Sue Over iBook, iPod
An anonymous reader writes "Reuters is running a story about failing Apple hardware. 'Can a few bad apples -- like product quality complaints and potential lawsuits -- spoil the bunch for loyal fans of Apple Computer Inc. ahead of their biggest party of the year? As enthusiasts devoted to Apple prepare to descend on San Francisco next week for the annual Macworld conference, at least two online petitions have collected hundreds of signatures from potential plaintiffs seeking to file lawsuits over claims of defects in the iBook laptop.'" Yay, online petitions, the most effective way to effect change in the world.
The real irony is that the money the plaintiffs spent on a mac (at least part of it) will be going towards funding the legal defense that will make sure consumers get the least out of the law suit.
i bought a g3 ibook little over a year ago. a week before the warranty ended, the screen started going blank. i got the extended warranty, but was a little pissed with not having my computer for a week. then, i bought a new g4 ibook, and less than 2 months pass, and the trackpad is all screwed up. so i send it back to. so they fix it. but, i am more than a little pissed. now, i can only think, when is the next thing gonna go out on me. apple is trying to enter the lower cost field, but at what cost?
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I have a 19-year-old Mac 512k that still runs. I have a 5-year-old Power Mac G3 that I've left running constantly since I bought it (replaced an HD or three, though). I have a brand-new PowerBook G4 that works wonderfully.
None of these computers have ever had a single hardware problem. Any manufacturer will ship some defective machines, but I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of Mac users have had experiences similar to mine.
From a business standpoint, Apple cannot afford to alienate all of us first time users. At 20 years old, I have quite a few more computers to pick up in the coming years, and unless things change - they'll be anything BUT macs...
From a business standpoint, you're one user. Even with (say) 2000 people sharing this problem (a fraction of total users), only a fraction of them will decide never to get another Mac, and those are the ones least likely to get another in the first place.
I, another 20 year old first-time user, have had no problems with my year-old PowerBook G4[*], and am absolutely certain that my next computer will be a G5. "Alienate all of us", my ass.
[*] Indeed, the 12" model with supposed "heat problems" : a lot people bitching because some parts of the case (that you will never touch in normal use) get too hot to touch for extended periods of time. Just like every other laptop on the market. But people feel like Apple should be able to violate the laws of thermodynamics on the threat of "I'll never buy another Mac again!" I'm not saying that these iBook problems are the same kind of thing, but...well, yeah, actually, I am saying that it's the same thing.
YMMV, RTFM, Caveat Emptor.
Having heard about this a long time ago it seems to me that the people organizing this crap are just doing it for the publicity. They get to whine and people will pay attention to them.
The iPod battery problem is pretty absurd. I've miraculously fixed more than one iPod whose owner knew beyond any doubt their iPod battery was dead. A bug in the 1.x firmware causes the iPod to not wake up if the battery charge drops to zero. All that is required is a few minutes charging and a hard reset, holding down menu+play/pause for a few seconds.
That isn't to say several people haven't really had their battery die. In the case of a truly dead battery there's always been a few options. Since the second generation iPod's release there's been iPod batteries available for sale from various retailers. Besides retailers there's always been AppleCare available for the iPods. It costs $60 for an extra two years of warranty coverage. That is $60 for three years total of battery replacement and any other sort of repairs. You don't even need to buy it when you buy the iPod. Whining about not being willing to protect a $300-500 investment is a bit absurd to me.
The situation is similar for the iBooks. Having a major hardware component die is absolutely no fun. However this sort of failure is something that would be covered and has been covered under the hardware warranty. If people with failed logic boards did have AppleCare they'd be up and running again in under a week. Instead they want to rant and rave and make money selling t-shirts.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
>None of these computers have ever had a single
>hardware problem. Any manufacturer will ship some
>defective machines, but I'm willing to bet that the
>vast majority of Mac users have had experiences
>similar to mine.
All of that is probably true, but we are talking about a limited problem that affects a certain percent of a specific model of Mac.
Good for you that you haven't had problems, and hopefully you never will, but those who have had these problems are justifiably angry.
Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
It depends on their level of problem tolerance. Some folks don't count having to reboot a few times or being required to practice safe computing (don't run attachments and so forth) as "Trouble with their system."
This isn't to say that there arn't any incoherant diehard zeolots out there but due to the folks with a high tolerance for computer problems it appears that there are more of them than there are.
Go here to create your own Slashdot dis
In December, I received two awards for classes I was a part of (and did not even know I was a part of). One was a check for $1.00 from a credit card I had many years ago that had apparently not properly disclosed all the fees. The other was a $5.00 discount on my next domain registration from Register.com for having the gaull to put a "website comming soon" default instead of giving visitors to my domain a 404 when there was no index.html to view.
The winners in both suits were the suits (pardon the pun).
If these consumers want to punish Apple with hundreds of thousands in legal fees and bad press then they are on the right track. If they want free batteries or better iBooks, then they should look elsewhere.
I only came here to do two things; kick some ass, and drink some beer...looks like we're almost out of beer.
I have been buying apple product for decades, and have had machines die at various stages of their life-cycle. I have also bought products from other manufacturers. I find it fair to say that this wanker doesn't really seem to have anything close to a complaint.
I have NEVER had Apple refuse service durring the warranty period, and their work has been exemplary. I have had machines die before and after the warranty period, and it is rarely problematic to have them serviced. AppleCare is a good deal, although I haven't bought it for all my machines -- and when I don't, I attribute it to my own bad judgement/luck, rather than blaming the failure to buy the very reasonable extended warranty.
I would be frankly astonished if there was any legal cause of action for a post-warranty failure that Apple refused to fix for free. Apple's warranty and service are comparable to that of the industry at large, better than some and not as good as others, but certainly not an unreasonable business practice.
The guy's website seems more like whining to me than a legitimate complaint.
A machine shouldn't last 1 year. I have a IBM Thinkpad from 1991 that still runs like a champ. Hell I still have my first Apple //e which runs since 1983, so don't give me bullshit about "That's the deal". If everything you bought only lasted as long as the warranty you'd be pissed. Imagine your car no longer works after 3 years, your TV breaks every year, not to mention all your computer components, DVD players, stereo equipment, etc.
Pull your head out of your ass. It is okay to expect your equipment to work longer than the warranty is valid.
It pissed me off it happened not long after warranty went out.
If your warranty is up, so is free service. End of story.
And read some of the signatures on that petitiononline.com site, here's a few examples:
1013.
Bastich
FIX MY SH1T YOU A55HOLES!!!! I'M COMIN TO YOUR KEYNOTE WITH A BAG OF ROTTEN APPLES!!!!!
1019.
LOL
Hey.....iBook owning JACKASS... YOU should have bought a DELL!!!!!
Inspiron 8100
NOTHING EVER..may out live me....
Not to mention a number of them say "Apple replaced my logic board!" I fail to see exactly what is wrong with Apple giving these people customer service. Then there's the one's who say "I'm out of warranty and they won't fix it for free!" Again, what's the problem here?
And there are also additional signatures from people with all kinds of problems completely unrelated to iBooks. These petitions do not reflect some serious overwhelming problem. I'd like to see a list of people who are perfectly content with their iBook (like myself).
These people just need to understand that if they are out of warranty, things won't be fixed for free.
My observations so far:
1. the average "useful" life span of a Mac is 3-4 years (over a PC 2-3 years) before upgrading to a faster machine, even if it has not failed. * implies normally Mac are better built.
2. If it is your primary machine and you are crap about backing up etc then you should get Apple Care. * just common sense..
3. It is unfair, but if your machine goes down out of warranty.. tough. When you buy a camcorder or huge TV you spend a similar amount of money, there is only a Limited Warranty too. * Just a game of numbers. There will be people who have no extended warranties and have their goods performing flawlessly for years. Think bell shaped curve.
4. FINALLY.. has anyone studied the failure of harware that is covered within an extended warranty? It would be interesting to see what the average life of hardware is!! And whether there is a price point where extended warranties are worth their money!
My conclusion, shit happens. Read reviews.. pick the best system for your needs at a price point you can live with.. If the product is pivotal to your work/life have backups.. Automate things..
I've got a copy of Apple's 10-Q SEC filing for the three month period ending June 28, 2003 here in front of me. During that period, according to page 29, Apple shipped 190,000 iBooks.
According to the current frong page of "Black Cider", 1209 people have signed up for their alleged class action law suit. Presumably, most of those people are legitimately having serious hardware problems with an iBook that they bought during the last year.
Assuming that iPod sales don't vary wildly by season (and their 9-month number, 509,000, shows that this is a valid assumption), then we can guess that Apple shipped somewhere in the neighborhood of
4 * 190,000 = 760,000
iBooks in the last year. If you ask me, a failure rate of
1209 / 760,000 = 0.0000827
or 0.00827% speaks pretty darn well for Apple hardware reliability.
Yes, surely there are plenty of people out there having problems who haven't even heard of this law suit. By the same token, there are surely plenty of problems that Apple has resolved amicably. Therefore, the number above isn't really a failure rate, but instead the rate of seriously disgruntled iBook consumers.
If I were considering a major purchase and the salesperson supplied numbers showing me that there was a 99.99% chance that I'd be happy with the product, I think I'd reach for my credit card.
I bought an iBook about a year ago and have had it replaced due to logic board problems. My roommate bought one at the same time and his died just about the same time as mine (6 mo). Apple replaced it though kindly and gave me a fresh new 1 year warranty to go with my replacement computer. They may have made a lemon with the ibook but if youre in warranty they will fix it. I see lots of people complaining that their out of warranty ibook is failing, but that really ISN'T Apple's responsibility unfortunately. For those of us that own these and probably will have problems later on, buy AppleCare to extend it to 3 years. Its $183 I think for students and it basically assures that your iBook will last for 2 years past the warranty, hell you might get a brand new one. Its sad that these things fail but with laptops, always buy the extended warranty. I'm on the list somewhere on the logic board problem petition but I'm not on the lawsuit one because what right do I have to get money from them when theyve fixed everything (and replaced my computer with the newer model that was out)? I think theyre going to have a tough time fighting Apple on this one.
I've owned a bunch of Apple laptops: a Duo 210, a PowerBook 5300c, an iBook 500MHz & and iBook 800MHz. The only one that did not need repair at some point was the 500MHz iBook, and I only kept that for a year and a half.
There was a problem with the Duos where the keyboard was excessively mushy. Apple created some sort of repair extension program for that, and I got it taken care of for free when I brought the Duo in to a dealer to have a modem installed. That Duo ran like a champ until I sold it.
The 5300 series, everyone knows what crap they were. I had screen hinge problems and bezel separation problems, all kinds of crap. Apple instituted a 7 year repair extension program for those. Toward the end of it they did a trade-in offer for remaining 5300 owners to get a discount on a G3 Powerbook. I had sold my 5300c on eBay long before that, though, because I didn't need a laptop any longer.
In June 2001 I bought the 500MHz iBook, it ran problem-free for the 18 months I had it and went everywhere with me in my backpack when I was working. Sold it a year ago on eBay for only $200 less than I paid for it.
A year ago I bought an 800MHz iBook. About a month ago, I ran into the display problem everyone's bitching and moaning about, but I had not heard of this being a frequent problem back then. My iBook was still within warranty by a few weeks. I called the support line without a chip on my shoulder about it. The guy on the other end was friendly and professional. He also spoke intelligible English, because he was American-- a major plus after dealing with Dell support for one of my clients. He walked me through some tests, agreed that the unit was hosed, and dispatched a box. I got my iBook back a week later, good as new. I also bought AppleCare while I was on the phone with him. Like I said, I wasn't aware of the frequency of this problem at the time-- but I figured that if I sold this iBook to upgrade to a newer Apple laptop, the extended warranty would be a nice selling point. Likewise, if I kept it for 3 more years and something went wrong, I'd be covered.
To sum up, in my experience, when Apple has a widespread defect like this, they eventually do the right thing. The best example is their program to do free repairs on the PowerBook 5300 defects for an extraordinary seven years from the date the model was discontinued, followed by trade-in offers for a discount on new equipment.
As for these iPod battery whiners, though, I say tough shit. It's a *battery*. Batteries will eventually cease to do their job and need to be replaced. Most will last as long as their manufacturer (who is NOT Apple, BTW) intended. Some will go well beyond that. Some will fail right away, within your warranty, and some will die sooner than manufacturer spec but after your iPod warranty. Them's the breaks.
~Philly
I agree that a machine should last more than 1 year. Most Macs generally do -- I have some that are decades old and still working fine. My early Apple ][ (not plus or e) still works fine. So what?
The question is whether Apple is bound, legally or otherwise, to repair an out-of-warranty machine. Answer is clear legally. Morally, they are on no higher or lower ground than any other corporation responsible to its shareholders -- they generally do not.
Apple provides an effective four year warranty, one year for free, three more for a few hundred bucks if you don't destroy the machine before you buy.
It is one thing to "expect your equipmnt to work longer than the warranty is valid." It is another to expect legal or other recourse when it does not.
That's the deal.
I'm on my second powerbook. One of the things apple hardware has going for it is that it depreciates very little. So take advantage of this. Right before your 1 year warranty expires, sell the notebook in good condition on Ebay. You will recover most of what you spent on it. Take the amount you lost(likely a few hundred plus taxes), then subtract the substantial cost of AppleCare. We won't put a value on the percieved value of hassles getting Apple to actually fix things. (hey, Apple, hardware reputation, Slashdot, toilet?)
Take the money and go buy a brand spanking new Powerbook. It'll be faster, pretty, AND it'll come with the new version of the operating system you'd have to pay for anyway. Don't forget to include that in the cost total.
Amortize the lost cost over that year. You'll find in most cases it is much less than 100 dollars/mo.
..don't panic
Ok, this issue has peaked my interest, so I'll throw my contention in the ring.
The original 500mhz iBook (meaning the first generation models) had defects. Those defects were found through a program that Apple entered into with a certain highly contentious school system in central Virginia (Henrico county for those of you not aware of that). In the first 3 months of handing these rugged, compact notebook computers to a bunch of high school kids, Apple got to see what kinds of abuse these machines could handle.
The first issue was the CD-ROM drive tray. People who did read the directions, or who were overly impatient, had a tendancy to rip the CD tray out of the machine. The next thing they saw was a design flaw with the screen latch that held the lid closed. It was too thin and was breaking off. For both of these major issues, they repaired every single one of those machines that failed (which, suprisingly, was not all 12,000 that had been deployed, only about 1 in 10 machines actually failed due to these flaws).
This logic board issue appears to be a longer term issue. But, given the number of complaints (1200 registered on one website, and in reality, maybe 75% of those are legitimate complaints of failure, seeing as many of the complaints are actually Apple haters making rude comments) I don't see an issue. How many actual logic board failures are there? In total? And how many iBooks have been sold? So what percentage of iBooks have actually failed? Does this percentage actually qualify as an inherent design flaw, or is it a matter that these people (and statisticly, there is no way of avoiding this circumstance) are the unlucky few that got either truly defective machines, or have unknowingly abused their machines to the point of failure or even repeated failure?
An example of unknowingly causing failure. Shutting down their machines everyday or power cycling their machines at least twice per day of usage. Hate to break it to you folks, but this kind of usage inherently causes excess strain on your computers components. If you you think about it, every time you power cycle your machine, you are forcibly starting and stopping electrical spikes through your boards. While sleeping the machine does similar things, the machine never truly achieves a state of no charge, so the components are not being slammed by electrons repeatedly. Ok, someone is going to try and slam me for stating that one, but I'm trying to point out the simple fact that if you keep flipping a switch, it's eventually going to break. These computers are silicon, metal and plastic. All 3 of those materials wear out over time and use. Heavy extended use will increase the change of breakage.
Next issue. Enviornment. Apple doesn't know what type of enviornment these complaints are stemming from. Do you work in a heavy industrialized city? Do you carry your iBook everywhere with you? Are you popping it in a Kensington bag and thinking that you can swing it around and bounce it off the walls because it's in a padded sleave? Are you avoiding flexing the casing? Are you torquing the lid everytime you open it, causing the plastic of the lid hinges to grind against each other? Are you constantly taking your iBook out at Starbucks and putting it down on a table that someone just spilled their Caramel Frappacino on?
These are but a few of the things I can think of to shorten the lifespan and usability of an iBook, let alone a Powerbook. These are not hardened laptops. You don't see U.S. Marine commanders lugging an iBook into a warzone. No, they carry a $15,000 486 in a case truly engineered to be dropped, shaken, hit, submerged , microwaved (or even actually nuked) and still function. So don't think you can be taking your iBook to the pool and wonder why you smell ozone when some kid slogs half the pool on your expensive laptop.
Ok, now to counter balance my vehement dislike of this subject, and those at the center of it (the complainers, not Apple), I will address Apple's a
Don't Ask Questions. I don't know the answers and even if I did I wouldn't tell you.
There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people with similar stories to mine.
Obviously there are! But since there are - in general - millions or tens of millions of iBook and powerbook users, hundreds or even thousands would not accumulate even to 0.1% of the user base. I am sorry for your bad luck - but it's just bad luck. If 99.9% machines work flawlessly - this means that there will be thousands or dozens of thousands unhappy users, very active on the Internet (writing petitions, participating in Usenet newsgroups, slashdotting etc.). I am really sorry that it happens - but it would be really naive to think that any company can achieve 100.0% of customer satisfaction. 99% would be quite much (and just one percent would be HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS in this case).