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The Open Source Dilemma for Governments

Sam Hiser writes "Tom Adelstein, open source consultant and Member of the Open Government Interoperability Project ("OGIP") working group, offers another incisive article in which he discusses the costs in the terms of lives and dollars when local governments do not deploy open standards-based software for data sharing. Asks Adelstein, 'Can local governments afford to create redundant applications to meet new Federal standards for first responder alerts, emergency services, law enforcement, broadcasters?' He posits that Open Source collaborative initiatives may provide the only solution for the US if the people want to create a safer environment."

52 of 163 comments (clear)

  1. The Open Source Software Institute... by tcopeland · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...is a big supporter of this sort of thing. Check them out here. The OSSI is chaired by John Weathersby, who seems to have a good handle on how to communicate effectively via standards, reports, certifications, and so on with folks in the U.S. government.

    1. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by ReTay · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "So as more people use open source, the bigger target it becomes to hackers."

      Care to tell me why that Apache is so much more secure then IIS?
      Apache is the most popular web server in the world. But IIS has the most flaws....

    2. Re: The Open Source Software Institute... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful


      > > So as more people use open source, the bigger target it becomes to hackers.

      > Care to tell me why that Apache is so much more secure then IIS? Apache is the most popular web server in the world. But IIS has the most flaws....

      Because Apache was written to serve Web pages and IIS was written to make somebody rich(er).

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    3. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by dasmegabyte · · Score: 4, Informative
      Apache is more secure than IIS because:
      • Apache generally runs as an unprivliged user -- IIS by default runs as the local system and on some systems I've seen has been set up to run as a privlidged network user (to get around problems with content on networked drives).
      • Apache is designed to do less than IIS. Comparing the two isn't even fair...IIS is a web server, an email server, an ftp server, etc etc. It's designed to do EVERYTHING. So it's not apples to apples...more like apples to an appleseed.
      • By default, Apache only installs a few basic modules. Almost everything is optional. IIS, designed to be an end-to-end solution for internet servers, installs everything. If you lock it down, remove the crap you don't use, it's much better off.
      • Apache has more people working on it and more frequent bug releases. MS has to worry about massive overhead and support costs with every release...so they space them apart further. My company does the same thing.


      Anyhow, this article is a lot of FUD. I write software for local governments, and at least in this state (which is one of the richest in the US), OSS wouldn't save any money nor eliminate any problems. "Code Security" is not a big problem in local government -- as local governments generally only use their digital systems to warehouse and process publically available information. These guys keep paper records going back to the 18th century, and if anything seems out of the ordinary they check the paper. Heck, if tax rolls come out twenty cents unbalanced from the invoice, we have to audit the programs line by line. And if asked, we readily turn over our code to local auditors. Very rarely do we do this. Nobody cares about anything except getting the software to cut down on their workload.

      And that's the biggest problem in this market: accountability. Small companys come in, install software, and then disappear. So when laws and regulations change, there's nobody to update the old software. Most of these people don't have IT departments (some don't even have computers in some departments, or use their own personal machines...the assessor in my home town runs a computer shop and that's how he got the job!). There is so little money, that only by relying on companys to help with everything from installing printers to writing custom tax logic for way less than the standard consulting rate (hoping to get a chance to use it somewhere else) can these towns get their software written.

      Can you imagine the accountability headaches associated with asking a "community" to write custom tax logic? With not having a responsible party you can call when stuff breaks? You'd still have to pay somebody out of your budget (which is sometimes set five or more YEARS in advance) to support the program, only they wouldn't have any real interest invested in fixing the program quickly. There's incentive with private software to deliver the best, easiest to use stuff you can for whatever price you can get.

      Don't get me wrong...I like the idea of getting more eyes on my code...but I can't imagine injecting community code into a hectic development schedule like we maintain. It seems like it'd be inviting too much uncertainty in an arena that only thrives with a stable support structure. My boss would surely never go for it. Of course, I don't expect many of the OSS acolytes to agree with me...some people don't seem to understand that the minimum wage people working without possibility of overtime at the county clerk's office don't want to visit the newsgroups for help when they have bugs preventing their license software from printing.
      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    4. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh. I almost left out the key to interoperability concerns: Governments have had them for years. Speculation over open standards aside, the way they've been best met so far is when the government agency requesting the data creates the spec and a reference implementation itself. I do not think there is any benefit to relying on an Open group to do this...as the current method works really well. I'm thinking specifically of the tax assessment software we use in this state...I wrote an application which integrates with it and produces data update requests, and this was possibly one of the easiest things I've ever done despite the fact that the database structure was a little dumb. There is no problem, so there's no need for an Open solution to one! Besides...the last thing these poor goverment people need is a fancy programmer's solution to the human problem of data integration.

      Besides, all it takes is a single government agency in the pocket of some software company (*cough* California *cough*) to trump any attempts at creating a single universal solution. So we may as well accept that there's going to be some conversion necessary, and not waste our time trying to hold back the deluge of incompatible formats. Far better to be the flexible party who can bring them altogether...

      --
      Hey freaks: now you're ju
    5. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "...this was possibly one of the easiest things I've ever done despite the fact that the database structure was a little dumb."

      Unfortunately, THIS is one of the leading causes I've found of govt. computer problems. They start with a flawed data model, and man, I've seen some doozys!!! But, it gets cobbled together to 'work'. Then, it becomes the standard..and more things are hooked to it...also kludged to work..and systems kludged to work with those systems...ad nauseum.

      I know its tough, but, if you can get the data model created correctly to replace the old one...would be the best way to go if caught early, to prevent the potentially coming mess of spaghetti code...

      Of course, if you can talk them into creating a new system from scratch...with a proper data model, and open standards..better for the govt., and a long term bit of work for you!!!

      :-)

      So few people understand this...if you get the data model right...most everything else will fall into place, but, I see so often, this cornerstone to good computing put together by someone who just never seems to have had any training in relational theory...at least since RDBMSes still predominate the scene for now...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    6. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by chrisreedy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have a lot of experience with software for local law enforcement agencies. This particular area is a morass of smaller and larger companies, each with their own software packages that may or may not interoperate with their competitors. I've seen a number of small police agencies that have been trapped by trying to support a package from a vendor that either (a) is out of business, or (b) is no longer supporting the package/version in question. In my judgement, a good open source package supporting local law enforcement could make major improvements to the situation.

      Having said that, I don't think the existence of such a package would, in fact, put many of these vendors out of business. Most local police departments don't have the expertise to manage the installation (including data conversion!), tailoring, etc. that is required for any such package. There would still be plenty of opportunity for companies to provide this as a service.

      However, the fact that the underlying package was standard, and known and understood by more than the employess of a single company would help insulate the local police from the problems that arise when their support organization moves on, for whatever reason.

      In addition, there is a big drive these days for national, state, and regional, and local interoperability between law enforcement agencies. Anything that helps to standardize data models, etc. etc. would be a big help in this area.

    7. Re:The Open Source Software Institute... by cmacb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Anyhow, this article is a lot of FUD. I write software for local governments, and at least in this state (which is one of the richest in the US), OSS wouldn't save any money nor eliminate any problems."

      That's a strong statement. I'd say that there is more FUD in your post than in the original article. Maybe you forget that a lot of Slashdotters are, or have been government workers too...

      '"Code Security" is not a big problem in local government -- as local governments generally only use their digital systems to warehouse and process publically available information. These guys keep paper records going back to the 18th century, and if anything seems out of the ordinary they check the paper.'

      I worked at a federal agency that had everything stored on paper too. One day they decided to double check some things and found out the off-site storage facility they had been paying for years had no idea where most of their documents were. Those that could be found were water damaged beyond being readable.

      So much for using paper as a back-up mechanism. I think part of the point of the article is that local governments do things on-the-cheap and that if they all shared more of their systems the systems would likely improve for everyone, even the smallest local agencies.

      "And if asked, we readily turn over our code to local auditors. Very rarely do we do this. Nobody cares about anything except getting the software to cut down on their workload."

      Sam here. But they never ask. Thats the problem. They don't know if contractors are sticking to standard coding practices, they don't know if third party "shareware" components have snuck into their systems (and they have) and they don't get involved with these issues until something breaks, and by then it's probably too late. More eyes on the code solves this too. Worst case, after the same breakage occurs for one local shop, other local shops will at least be aware that there is a problem that needs to be addressed (and most of them will only have to apply the fix, not invent it).

      "And that's the biggest problem in this market: accountability. Small companys come in, install software, and then disappear."

      Right, small companies like yours, supplying one of a kind mixtures of COTS software and local code. You most likely have a long term contract where you are because you have wired a dependence on your institutional knowledge into your systems. Good for you, not good for taxpayers.

      "Can you imagine the accountability headaches associated with asking a "community" to write custom tax logic? "

      Again, you seem to have missed the point, which was that there is not all that much variation from one location to another. The types of variation caused by different tax rates etc. should not be buried in code logic anyway, but should be in parameter control files and be alterable at a fairly high level.

      "Don't get me wrong...I like the idea of getting more eyes on my code...but I can't imagine injecting community code into a hectic development schedule like we maintain."

      Well, from what you have said, it most likely wouldn't be your code getting examined. Most likely in fact you would adapt code written at a larger, richer locality to your needs.

      "My boss would surely never go for it. Of course, I don't expect many of the OSS acolytes to agree with me...some people don't seem to understand that the minimum wage people working without possibility of overtime at the county clerk's office don't want to visit the newsgroups for help when they have bugs preventing their license software from printing."

      Both you, and your boss probably won't go for it until you see other similar localities going for it successfully. At the federal level almost everyone looks to other agencies for guidance. With no agency in a clear leadership position you end up with the same thing you get in any leaderless organizations, n

  2. Well i would have thought this is obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If we want secure software, it has to be open source.. Granted, at the start the code quality of open source stuff is around equal to closed source stuff but the resources available to check code that is public are far larger than any closed source firm can muster.

    Simon.

    1. Re:Well i would have thought this is obvious by Lord+Kholdan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If we want secure software, it has to be open source.. Granted, at the start the code quality of open source stuff is around equal to closed source stuff but the resources available to check code that is public are far larger than any closed source firm can muster.

      Potential resources mean nothing. Open source code that no-one bothers to read isn't going to get better on it's own.

    2. Re:Well i would have thought this is obvious by bit01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wonder why all this commercial propaganda on slashdot recently?

      There are 6,000,000,000 people in the world. It is a statistical certainty that a significant fraction of these will have both the means and the motivation to work on any commonly used piece of software, if it is accessible. ie. open source. Please remove your paid commercial blinkers.

      ---

      User friendly M$Windows/XP.
      User unfriendly M$Windows/XP license.

    3. Re:Well i would have thought this is obvious by Michalson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Quoting from http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/ 85676 You may not be counting, but there are about a dozen active perl 5 developers on p5p, about half with commit rights. Similarly parrot has about 5 active committers. This is the number of competent volunteers that a well established 16-year old programming language used by many individuals and many organisations can muster. From the entire world. Now tell me, when was the last time *you* actually downloaded some open source software, and instead of using it (a home user really has no user for custom government software designed to sort peoples tax returns or other similar jobs) you went through the code line per line looking for bugs. Assuming you somehow got past question one by fudging the truth (i.e. you downloaded something OS for personal use, and seeing a "source" directory you spent 2 minutes randomly opening files for fun), when was the last time you actually identified a bug, and submitted it (20 bonus points if you actually produced a patch yourself) Simply put, even with several million people world wide who have the equipment and skills (most of that 6 billion lives in poverty, and most of those rich enough to own computers usually don't even understand the concept of right click), there are not enough willing to give up their time to do code reviews, especially on a piece of software they personally will never use and will never care about. To perhaps better highlight the flaw in your logic, shouldn't litter be non-existant? With 6 billion people on the planet there should be more than enough willing to volunteer their time to go out to parks and streets they don't ever visit and pickup trash. The reality of course is that even the people who use those streets almost never think to pick up a piece of litter.

  3. Open Data formats more important by i.r.id10t · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't care if the US Senate or House chooses to use MS Office or vi or whatever - as long as the documents they produce are of an open format (text, rtf, XML, whatever), and can be read by us Citizens (and others, why not?) wihtout needing to have a particular piece of software. Same can be said of exchanging data between various levels, types, and branches of government.

    --
    Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    1. Re:Open Data formats more important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd rather my government spend my tax dollars on something other than Microsoft software.

    2. Re:Open Data formats more important by happyfrogcow · · Score: 4, Funny

      Score: -1, Use of the word "Terrorist" to strengthen argument

      ;) just kidding... mostly.. a little bit anyway.

    3. Re:Open Data formats more important by stephenbooth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'Terroist' seems to have replaced 'Commie', 'Russian' &c in the language of US politics. Compare the speeches of President Bush Jr with those of Vice-President Bush Sr in the 1980s. SSDD (Same shit, different decade).

      Stephen

      --
      "Don't write down to your readers, the only people less intelligent than you can't read" - Sign on Newspaper Office Wall
  4. Text for the soon to be slashdotted.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Open Source Dilemma for Governments

    by Tom Adelstein
    January 04, 2004

    If someone told you a hole existed in the competitive landscape for a large and highly addressable US market segment you would call them a niche miner. If I told you the cream of that niche totaled $56 billion and could be addressed in a three to five year time frame you might wonder how you missed it. Don't feel bad, it seems that the major computer companies have missed it too.

    In a nutshell, the local government software market has not drawn large software firms. Also, independent software vendors (ISV's) have failed to adequately satisfy this market's needs as they lack the resources to serve the large geographical base. People have viewed this market as fragmented, requiring too much one-off customization with long sales cycles. Since the tragedy of September 11, 2001 those barriers and the poor economics of serving this sector have changed. You might call this a new opportunity.
    What's At-Stake

    Local governments must upgrade their computer infrastructures. That means additional taxes, levies and bond issues lie ahead. They could ignore their ailing systems and that means putting people's lives at risk. If the American public understood this problem one might see some intense interest at town hall meetings. If mayors and city councils really understood this problem they might panic. Perhaps some of us also wonder how much frustration US agency and department personnel feel as they hurry to make a bigger impact in a faster time frame and run into muck of local government.

    An example of the problem local governments face exists on the website of the US Department of Justice - Office of Justice Programs, under the Global Justice Data Model http://it.ojp.gov/topic.jsp?topic_id=43. On that page, the authors write:

    Approximately 16,000 justice and public safety-related data elements were collected from various local and state government sources. These were analyzed and reduced to around 2,000 unique data elements that were then incorporated into about 300 data objects or reusable components. These components have inherent qualities enabling access from multiple sources and reuse in multiple applications. In addition, the standardization of the core components resulted in significant potential for increased interoperability among and between justice and public safety information systems.

    Many of those 16,000 fields contain the same type of information with a different naming scheme. For example, some databases use the field " name_first" and others use "first_name". Then you might find "firstname" or "givenname" or "given_name".

    As you go through the local government databases, you find a myriad of schemes for everything from last_name to zip_code. Obvious, the nation's information stores contain massive redundancies. These redundancies make it difficult to share data and provide alerts.

    So, add all the separate naming schemes of local government databases together and you get 16,000 variations. Create a standard and it goes down to 2,000. Put those into categories of reusable components and you wind up with 300 database elements. That's why they call it a standard. It allows disparate systems to work together. It starts to open the window of a manageable task when the interoperable elements number 300 instead of 16,000.
    Non-Compliance Problems and Their Costs to You and Me

    Recently, I received two requests to assist a local government and a university in the same area of deploying justice databases. The requests involved implementing a new, comprehensive application to provide services and a tracking system using a web-enabled database-driven application. The requirements of the applications seemed simple and with the use of the Global Justice Data Model, I estimated delivery within 90 days. In both instances, the people controlling those projects dismissed implementation of the standards-based model.

    What should one do when government entitie

    1. Re:Text for the soon to be slashdotted.. by LittleKing · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Some might consider this off-topic, but I would be willing to bet the site doesn't get /.ed. Why? this page is mostly text.

      Time will tell.
      LK

      --
      Art by Mindy Herman, my wife.
  5. The reverse would seem to be true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For pure niche apps (patrol car suspect lookups, etc), I would posit that small commercial companies are in the best possible position to provide support and apps, not the FOSS world - after all, where does your teenage A-Patchy Webserver hacker get his hands on the specialty hardware used in patrol cars?

    1. Re:The reverse would seem to be true by worm+eater · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I would posit that small commercial companies are in the best possible position to provide support and apps, not the FOSS world

      Why wouldn't a small commercial company writing open source software be in this exact same 'best possible' position? Nothing about open source precludes it from being commercial, especially when we are talking about niche hardware. Making it open source would just allow citizens to know what is going on, and allow another commercial company to take over when the first one goes out of business.

      --
      Maybe partying will help...
    2. Re:The reverse would seem to be true by z-kungfu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't know what police force your looking at, but around here the equipment is hardly specialized. It is commodity hardware, with some specialized software. And way overpriced, and slow to boot...

    3. Re:The reverse would seem to be true by markov_chain · · Score: 2, Interesting

      1. Small commercial company A develops app and provides support for the town police. They GPL the source. Town pays full price.

      2. Small commercial company B reuses A's source, provides service to their own town's police. The cost is minimal. Rinse, repeat.

      3. The small commercial companies collaborate to improve the software. The cost is absorbed by service contracts and is split among all involved towns.

      Much better than reinventing the wheel N times.

      --
      Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
    4. Re: The reverse would seem to be true by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful


      > For pure niche apps (patrol car suspect lookups, etc), I would posit that small commercial companies are in the best possible position to provide support and apps, not the FOSS world

      I have a friend who works in IT at a small college, and her group's primary responsibility is maintaining a big commercial app that manages schoolish stuff like registration, etc. Schools all over the state use the same app, so they have a sort of loose association of maintainers across the state, several per college, adding up to several score programmers in total.

      She gripes a lot because every time a new release comes out the association has to hack back in all the customizations they've made over the years. I keep telling her that for the number of people and amount of effort involved, they could write their own FOSS application to do the same thing, and spend their time making improvements rather than restoring last year's hacks year after year.

      > after all, where does your teenage A-Patchy Webserver hacker get his hands on the specialty hardware used in patrol cars?

      Who says it has to be teenage hackers? If a dozen of the biggest cities' IT departments dedicated one programmer each, the job could be done easily at a dispersed cost, trivial in comparison to the total spent when thousands of cities buy the software at commercial prices.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:The reverse would seem to be true by Yokaze · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Who says that FOSS and commercial companies are different world?

      On the contrary. Niche apps are custom programmed, either in house or contracted and cannot usually be sold again. This would be the perfect place for FOSS -and- companies working on FOSS.

      This is a big world. Other communities usually have the need similar niche programs. Modifications are necessary, but most companies aren't so pervasive, that they know who requires this niche product, or known to provide it, and/or cannot provide the modifications.

      But, when those niche products are FOSS, those communities can hire a local company to provide the modifications for themselves (and others).

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    6. Re: The reverse would seem to be true by dzelenka · · Score: 2, Informative

      No way. The one programmer is going to look like a productive dynamo. And without the programmer, there will be nobody to compile and implement the product, to say nothing of the maintenance phase.

      --
      Bah!
    7. Re: The reverse would seem to be true by fitten · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I keep telling her that for the number of people and amount of effort involved, they could write their own FOSS application to do the same thing, and spend their time making improvements rather than restoring last year's hacks year after year.

      This is assuming that their changes are accepted into the root source tree (which is a false assumption). If the changes/features are too specialized/customized (they apply to only that particular college) and if they interfere with other features, they most likely will not be accepted and they will be in exactly the same boat as they are in now.

      Just because a particular software package is "OpenSource" does not imply that any and all features will be put into the root source tree.

    8. Re: The reverse would seem to be true by miniver · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would lay good odds that once upon a time I worked for the company that made the software your friend maintains. (There aren't that many companies who do this sort of software, and I worked for one who now has more than 500 colleges as customers.) With that in mind, I think I can offer some explanation for your friend's complaints, and why open source wouldn't work to solve her problem. Let's start with a good rule of thumb:

      Trader's Open Source Feasibility Factor: The likelyhood that a piece of software would be a good target for developing, maintaining, and improving as Open Source Software is proportional to the number of active installations, divided by the complexity of the software (measured in Source Lines of Code for lack of a more rigorous measure).

      Any number greater than 10 indicates an excellent OSS candidate; numbers less than 0.1 indicate a poor candidate for OSS. As an example, Apache, with 31+ million websites and roughly 285,000 SLOCs would have a rough OSFF of 108; MS Windows with 200+ million users and 20-50 million SLOCs would have a rough OSFF between 4 and 10. Thus the Apache webserver would be a better candidate for OSS than MS Windows.

      With that in mind, let's examine the software for administering a typical 4-year college. While much of the software would be recognizable as accounting software: inventory, accounts receiveable, account payable, general ledger, payroll, etc, it will have been customized specifically for the quirks of running a large institution with a continually changing student body. Then add on class scheduling and grade calculation modules, as well as security levels to protect the privacy and security of confidential data, such as financial and health records. Finally, throw in yearly updates for the financial aid software, which has to change to meet new requirements from the US Department of Education every year. At this point you're probably talking about 5-10 million SLOCs, with a user base of 500 customers, or an OSFF of 0.0001 or less.

      Another thing to keep in mind is that there are accounting certifications that have to be renewed on a yearly basis, or the college could fail an audit, which could result in its accredidation being suspended. All in all, maintaining this type of software is a very time-consuming and expensive proposition, and we're still only talking about the base package, before customizations.

      Customizations can take many forms. Typical customizations are parameter-driven (school name, address, etc.) but many are the result of specific local policies and requirements. You're really talking about separate source code forks for each school. Add up the collective customizations from 500 schools are you might be talking about as much source code as the base software.

      That much complexity is hard to manage; its not surprising that the company in question doesn't maintain the customizations for an individual school...

      Almost any vertical application for a sufficiently complex business will have the same sort of problem, which is the major reason why Open Source Software will have a great deal of difficulty in displacing proprietary vertical applications. There just aren't enough customers for that type of software to develop the sort of community necessary to support the many man-years necessary to code an OSS competitor.

      --
      We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
  6. it's already been admitted by relrelrel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    by the UK goverment that they might "look-in" to open source software themselves simply because they know it scares Microsoft, like Germany, who got massive discounts.

    A goverment just has to say it's thinking about it to get Microsoft scared and giving out vouchers left right and centre.

    Expect to see alot more /. stories on goverments considering OSS and then stories a few months later about them receiving massive discounts.

    --
    --- any post that takes longer than 20 seconds to write, isn't worth writing
    1. Re:it's already been admitted by Teux · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The interesting upshoot of this has been that when governments actually commission a study on the total cost of ownership for a Linux/Open Source solution, they find switching is to their benefit

      Microsoft's is doing it's best to keep the bleeding to a minimum, but more companies and governments are realizing that moving away from their dependency on MS is a Good Thing(tm)

    2. Re:it's already been admitted by JoeBuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Microsoft thinks it's a bluff, they will call the bluff. The reason that they hand out discounts instead is because they know that it's not. OpenOffice/StarOffice might be an even bigger threat to their revenue stream than Linux is; it's already good enough for most office workers and is vastly cheaper. If a few people in the organization still need a function that they can only buy from Microsoft, no matter: the organization just buys a very small number of MS Office licenses.

    3. Re:it's already been admitted by DickBreath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OpenOffice/StarOffice might be an even bigger threat to their revenue stream than Linux is; it's already good enough for most office workers and is vastly cheaper.

      The profit on selling Microsoft Office must be much greater than the profit on selling a bundled OEM preinstll of Windows.

      Furthermore, OpenOffice.org represents one less reason to be locked in to Windows. The more cross-over applications you run, the sooner you will realize one of these years that "Hey, we could just switch over to <Insert popular Open Source OS of the day>.

      For both of the foregoing reasons, I agree that OpenOffice.org is a much bigger threat (short term) to Microsoft than Linux is. Linux is a longer term threat. But tools like OpenOffice.org are what helps to make it so.

      --

      I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
  7. Government not supposed to work that way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Can local governments afford to create redundant applications to meet new Federal standards for first responder alerts, emergency services, law enforcement, broadcasters

    No! With or without open source, we can't afford such nonsense.

    This is another clear example of the overgrowth of the role of the federal government. They're going to run our local governments deeper into debt with these ridiculous unfunded mandates that may be wildly inappropriate for a given locality. The constitution clearly states the roles of the federal government and leaves the rest to the states and localities. This along with over-regulation of personal lifestyles that's going to come with public healthcare, are the biggest disasters on the horizon.

  8. SLG does not respond well to Open Source because by pauly_thumbs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1)"Free" is not a good motivator - coming in under budget is not a motivator if they want budget they need to spend budget

    2) it's too complex for SLG admins, it's not as easy to pass an open source torch on to your new team mate or underling.

    what will motivate Open Sopurce Adoption?

    those 400k novell seats and their admins that still run win9x and office 97 need an upgrade very badly. If Novell/SUSe and Ximian can pull off a compelling solution then you will see huga adoptions -- not these onsie twosie deals.

    Mod me down if you like but this is a strong emerging market.

  9. AMBER ALERT! by drdreff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry you need to update your version of Microsoft Office to 2003sp3 in order to report a child missing.

    When timing is critical a commercial solution can fall flat on it's face.

    --
    As seen on Wired: Get a free desktop PC
    1. Re:AMBER ALERT! by NanoGator · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Sorry you need to update your version of Microsoft Office to 2003sp3 in order to report a child missing."

      Careful about firing shots like that. Open Source has it's downsides too. You don't want anybody scoring a +3 funny on ya.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    2. Re:AMBER ALERT! by IthnkImParanoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sorry, but if someone takes down a critical part of an Amber Alert type system to update software without any sort of redundancy to keep the system going, the fault is with them, bot the software or OS. I dislike Microsoft software in general as much as the next /.er, but in what situation would this happen?

      --
      It's nothing but crumpled porno and Ayn Rand.
  10. Re:what's the dilemma? by Jim_Maryland · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Open source software plays a big role in many projects where I work, and our clients tend to be gov/mil related. While not all open source software is "good", you can't lump it all together and say it's "trash".

  11. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  12. Tactical considerations by GeckoFood · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Open Source collaborative initiatives may provide the only solution for the US if the people want to create a safer environment."

    Here's another related thought. (And, this is not intended as a slam on Microsoft)

    Open Source systems (bazaar) are often much more stable than commercial systems (cathedral) just because of the number of bug hunters, and when it comes to military apps, stability is absolutely crucial. Would you really want your military systems to blue screen or dump core right in the middle of a firefight?

    --
    Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
    1. Re:Tactical considerations by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Open Source systems (bazaar) are often much more stable than commercial systems (cathedral) just because of the number of bug hunters, and when it comes to military apps, stability is absolutely crucial. Would you really want your military systems to blue screen or dump core right in the middle of a firefight?

      Conversely, would you want all your image recognition algorithms (for TV guided missiles), your IR decoy rejection routines, your frequency hopping timings to be known to all and sundry, including the adversary?

      "Look, {insert your favorite rebel army leader here]...here's the code for how the missile rejects the decoy flares. Now we can work around that." "ooohhh, and here's the Predator communications frequencies. We can start on spoofing those."

    2. Re:Tactical considerations by miniver · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Would you really want your military systems to blue screen or dump core right in the middle of a firefight?

      There are much worse ways that software can fail. One of the worst is software that looks like it's working, but in fact is not displaying new / updated items -- this leaves the warfighter with the false impression of situational awareness. Another popular failure is software that has time-consuming processing steps that don't have adequate progress indicators -- this leaves the warfighter wondering 'Is it done yet?' when it hangs or fails.

      At least with a blue screen or core dump, you know you've got a problem, and you can restart / reboot to resume, with a well known startup time.

      --
      We call it art because we have names for the things we understand.
  13. gov't lacking in expertise and money for software by poopie · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The issues that this article brings up are similar regardless of whether commercial software or opensource software is used.

    This article is really talking about standardization and consistency across government organizations -- a huge job.

    Imaging thousands of individual offices who have operated in a certain way for a hundred years. Imagine all of the paperwork, homemade spreadsheets, interoffice memos that spawn secondary spreadsheets, etc. This unfortunately is how the US government works.

    Now imagine someone coming in and promoting replacing whatever random assortment of tools is in use with opensource tools. This means retraining. This means new hardware. This means *A CHANGE*. Uh oh.

    Is this the right long-term thing to do? Yes!!

    Is this going to be easy? NO!

    In order for this to be successful, it will have to have very important people behind it pushing it from the top down and funding the proper resources (hardware and people) where necessary to bring the government into the 21st century.

    I for one, certainly hope it can be done, and it would be great for the US and the rest of the world (except Microsoft) if it can be done with opensource software.

  14. Huh? by Call+Me+Black+Cloud · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The original Internet and Open Source standards came out of public monies mostly granted to university research departments by the Department of Defense. Who paid for those efforts? Why must the public have to pay for those technologies once again because companies like Microsoft adopt them and then resell them as proprietary software?

    What the hell is he talking about? In the previous paragraph he writes:

    If the Internet failed to follow accepted standards, it simply would not work

    So the Internet works because it "follows standards", and we know MSIE (price: free) has the largest share of the browser market. So MS hasn't broken the Internet. Can someone give an example of what he's talking about? And don't tell me Kerberos because it's not the example you're looking for (MS did not co-opt it - MS extended Kerberos in accordance with the spec).

    He started out reasonable and then got shrill. He throws out statements like, "Seventy-five percent of the municipalities and schools in the United States cannot afford proprietary software" So...that means 75% of the municipalities are either a) running OSS, b) using pen and paper, or c) pirating all their software. A source reference would have been nice.

    Oh no...he has recommendations too:

    the states should require the use of Open Standards and Open Source Software when applicable

    When applicable? So, who decides when the software "applies"? Availability? Cost? (cost of development for a custom solution vs cost of COTS software) Everyone knows offshore development is cheaper - since he beats the fiscal drum so loudly does he also advocate sending any custom programming jobs overseas? He did have one good idea:

    If we can pay for software one time and share it with all government entities, we empower Americans to participate in the security of the homeland.

    Solution: site licenses for America!

    1. Re:Huh? by nathanh · · Score: 2, Informative
      So the Internet works because it "follows standards", and we know MSIE (price: free) has the largest share of the browser market.

      They achieved that marketshare through illegal use of their x86 operating system monopoly. That's a fact as determined by the US courts.

      So MS hasn't broken the Internet. Can someone give an example of what he's talking about?

      He didn't say Microsoft had "broken" the Internet. Let's read it again:

      Why must the public have to pay for those technologies once again because companies like Microsoft adopt them and then resell them as proprietary software?

      Adopt and resell. Not break. His preceding paragraph about following standards makes no mention of Microsoft. You are trying to put words into his mouth.

  15. Re:gov't lacking in expertise and money for softwa by kiwimate · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Excellent, the first poster so far that appears to have RTFA.

    The crux is standardization, or, for you DBAs out there, normalization across applications instead of databases.

    One of the examples he gives talks about differing field names (last_name versus surname, for example). Well, sorry, but that has nothing to do with whether you're using SQL Server or MySQL and everything to do with standardizing architecture.

    But how does one do that across an entity as large as a government? How do you tell programmers they must use only these field names? And how much will it cost to rename fields in existing applications, and ensure all the links, dependencies, etc., are rectified as well? It's not really anything to do with the platform; at the least, it doesn't have anything like the impact the author suggests.

    An important issue, as the author says, is that for many applications (such as SAP and JD Edwards), no open source equivalents exist. This is a big problem for purchasers, because it makes them wonder how long open source will take to give them the applications they need (or if they'll ever come). They may have to pay big bucks for that other software, but it integrates with their existing applications and it's a known quantity. Never underestimate the power of familiarity.

    And, although I hate to be a grammar nazi, the author might just find himself being taken more seriously if he learns how to use words properly.

  16. The squeaky wheel gets the oil by Dukael_Mikakis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree with the parent.

    In many cases, the way that government works is that the budget-busters will wnd up getting more funding (despite being called to make cuts and everything). This is especially true if you're facing "essential" government expenditures such as the military (notorious for paying $100 for toilet seats and such). It would simply be too difficult for any politician to justify slashing funds to a military at its budgetary "capacity", especially these days, and this is why the Army is giving Microsoft huge and (in my opinion) bloated contracts, so that when they need fighter jets or nukes they can say, "See we're operating at capacity, and you can't seriously *not* give us funding, right?"

    It's the first trick in the bureaucratic hnadbook: spending money makes you look busy so that you can get more money and look even busier. Government agencies are like parasites that just consume as much as they can and continue to consume more (not that we don't need these agencies, per se).

    This is why a giant surplus was effectively erased by Bush as a result of a substantial wealthy-heavy tax cut and exorbitant funding on this corporate-sponsored war effort.

    Call it my paranoia. But in a word, open source would be great for our (and any government), but open source isn't precisely what governments want. I think they are looking more for the happy median where they can still break the bank a bit, without becoming too bloated. It's like walking the fine line between losing funding for not spending enough (and having unused cash in your account) and getting cut for spending too much (and looking bad and calling into question how "necessary" certain things are).

    Which is why it is ideal (and why we see very often "looking into" open source but contracting a discounted Microsoft deal.

  17. True enough but by crovira · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the problem lies not government "per se" but with the management thereof.

    The same government that you are railing about is the reason nobody's dying in low speed head-on crashes from getting a steering column rammed through their chest.

    The car companies were quoting "market forces" and "nobody will want to pay for collapsible steering columns," and people were pinned to their seats like butterflies to cardboard. Sound familiar? Its the justification of every elite to anything that's going to cut into sl/easy profit.

    Management of government by objectives without citizen input into what the objectives are is disastrous.

    Remember Clinton's medical plan fiasco that was thrown out, not by elected representatives like the congress, but by HMO lobby groups posing as experts, as being unmanagable.

    You didn't get to register so much as a peep for or against or make a suggestion. It was managed right out of your hands.

    People are dying because their only sin is being temporarily broke from the last scrape with the health care system.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  18. Pool all Government software. by crovira · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The costs of development would be borne once (quite likely whatever software they'd need has already been done by some community or other,) and used as is and/or modified under the GPL, and copied into the pool.

    Some existing body, like the GAO, could administer the pool and send CDs to any community, state or federal department that would require the software.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
  19. Re:gov't lacking in expertise and money for softwa by egburr · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The issues that this article brings up are similar regardless of whether commercial software or opensource software is used. This article is really talking about standardization and consistency across government organizations -- a huge job.

    The article is also about paying for the software ONE time and using it everywhere, instead of paying for EACH copy of it everywhere it is or might be used.

    That does not necessarily require Open Source, but Open Source is much more likely to make this possible than current proprietary commercial solutions.

    Instead of paying a license to use each copy of the software, you pay someone to write the software, and you pay someone (not necessarily the same person!) to support the software.

    Eventually, we'll probably end up with a federally funded department that writes and/or supports these applications. Local governments can use them for free and get support as needed (maybe with a small fee?). If a local government wants something that does not already exist they can pay to have it created (so that department isn't flooded with unnecessary requests), then others can obtain it for free. It would be a lot cheaper than everyone paying for licenses to use commercial software, and would directly affect our taxes.

    --

    Edward Burr
    Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
  20. Author is misrespesentative by geekee · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Mr. Bray has determined that Open Source Software appears as a bad idea as he further writes: (So what's wrong?) Plenty, if you're Microsoft or Oracle, or any of the thousands of smaller companies that make closed-source software for government agencies. According to the research firm IDC Corp., federal, state and local governments spend $34 billion a year on software. If Kriss's (Open Source in Government) ideas were to catch on across the land, a lot of that revenue disappears, and much of what remains won't go to firms like Microsoft, which refuses to offer open-source products."

    Bray never says open source is a bad idea. He merely says companies like MS and Oracle will lose revenue as a result of OSS. Why should I believe an author who can't even interpret a quote correctly,

    --
    Vote for Pedro
  21. Re:gov't lacking in expertise and money for softwa by qtp · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But how does one do that across an entity as large as a government?

    Publish a namespace reference as a RFC, dictate that all governmental entities that are having custom apps developed adhere to those guidelines, and that they submit addendum to the maintainer of those guidelines when they are adding named feilds to the list.

    The programmers have access to the spec before they bid on the job, and the spec is included with the customers criteria.

    --
    Read, L
  22. Document formats, not software by beforewisdom · · Score: 3, Interesting
    One of the best ways to promote free(dom) software, would be for the government to mandate standard goverment document formats under a GPL.

    If someone wants the government to use their software then their software must be capable of saving to the government standard GPL format.

    Government documents will always be accessible.

    Goverments will be free to switch software and not worry about format incompatibility.

    They can choose to use the best software for their formats...free(dom) software or proprietary.

    The playing field will be leveled. No document lock. A software package will compete on its pricing and merits.

    Chances are all of these benefits will transfer to the private sector as the sheer volume of government documentation will force the inclusion of government standard gpl formats into software made for the private sector.

    As a bonus the GPL will get a shot in the arm as far as legitimacy go.

    The government formats will also spread and be improved being GPL as anyone will be free to use or change it.

    If the government sees a nice modification they can make it the standard.

    Steve