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VIA/Apex Game Console Details Leaked
DammiTT writes "It seems that Apex are releasing a new PC-based 'console', using VIA components, later this year. It'll be announced during CES on January 8th." However, HardOCP already has some initial pictures and details up on its site, for this "ApeXtreme Personal Gaming Console and DVD Player", or PGC. According to this early, unconfirmed report, it's running a 1.4Ghz VIA chipset, the CN400, and "will be powered by a near-instant-on version of WinXP (embedded) with Windows Media Player, and... will have removable media in the form of DVD/CD." It comes with "a 40GB IDE hard drive... you can play DVD movies, audio and video CDs... [and] the price points will be at US$299 and US$399."
I wonder if you could use this for a PVR too; Apex also makes one of those now.
Just get me one of these with a larger hard drive, and I'd be set...
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
I've always been a fan of Apex, and this looks fun. Competition for the Xbox with configurable, customizable components? And support for PC games? I'm all for it. It's about time we see something that isn't proprietary.
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
see a marketplace where modded X-boxes used to be? Makes me wonder....
C|N>K
Dumb question. Couldn't you pick up a full PC for that price by the time this thing comes out? Wouldn't that also give you a wider library of games?
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
One has to wonder when the completely overused and tired X will be phased out. I for one would be happier if the marketing people would find something just a tad more innovative. X is so overused - bleh!
VIA has a tendency to make the most unstable chipset.
I have owned 3 abit motherboards, 1 tyan and 1 ecs, all based on a VIA chipset. Only 1 out of 5 board could remain stable for more than a year. Yes, yes I installed the VIA-4-in-1 drivers and more or less the same OS.
If you do the math, that's 20% stability in my experience.
I noticed that the unit has a Suspend Button instead of a Power Button....
Gotta wonder what the uptime record is for Windows Empbeded....;-)
...normally around a launch, the console boys start to talk about which companies have signed on to make games. And how many games will be available at launch. So, the static with the games has me wondering, is this a slimmed down PC that will play PC titles?! Or is this a console that will play proprietary console games? Or somewhere in-between?
Couldn't they have picked a better name?
APE extreme? Makes me think of gorillas.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
This sounds like it has the ability to become the X-Box killer, for gamign systems that run like PCs.
Upgradable, running an OS (instead of a agaming OS), ability to put Linux on it. Yum. I can't wait for this to outshine PS2, GCN and Xbox.
I read Slashdot in Lynx, I am a real geek.
The reason it has an embedded version of Windows XP is so you can play PC games on it. This is a game console. I see no benefit of Linux on this system. If you want a cheap workstation build a cheap workstation. You could probably do it chaper and better than this box anyway.
Conserve Oil, Recycle, Boycott Walmart
Anyone else think that this system looks a little like one of the 3DO systems that came out in the early/mid 90's?
... I remember when I was in Japan then, there was like 3 or 4 different models of the 3DO from different companies.
Not the first gen 3DO, but one of the later ones
Aaron
"Curiouser and Curiouser...." -Alice
Competition for the Xbox with configurable, customizable components?
Configurable, customizable components cause console crashes.
Consoles "just work" because the games know the exact quirks of the fixed hardware they run on. Console games don't have the incompatibilities with video cards, incompatibilities with CPU models, and even incompatibilities with optical drives that PC games tend to have.
I don't know if this new "game" system is a good idea, at least not from APEX. Yes, APEX has always been hacker friendly, but APEX has a pretty bad track record in the DVD player market; I had to swap out APEX DVD players four times before I got one that worked. Coupled this with the unreliability of the VIA chipset= "Emachines" 3 years ago, i.e. crap. Ironically, now Emachines has a really good quality and good value, for about the same price as this APEX game system. Even if they bundled this new game machine with a Radeon 9800 chip built in, I would be wary of it.
"Jeremy, you need to get to an internet cafe and cut and paste some appropriate sentiments about me from the world wide
MAME CONSOLE BITCH!
Seriously, I don't think it will take very long at all before some enterprising individual or group of individuals starts homebrewing their own Mame32 CD for this baby. Think about it. It has a special version of WinXP, that means access to the Win32 API. It will also mean standardized hardware.
Something like that will make the system marketable to grandparents and uncles. People who have no interest in Max Payne or GTA VC just might want to play Burger Time or Space Invaders.
Now, we just need for the owners of the copyrights to those old games to come to the table to negotiate licensing. Even if they don't I'm sure that something like this will sping up eventually anyway.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
No, linux must be installed on it! Everything is obviously better with linux... even if the device is designed for the purpose of running windows based games...
Considering that:
1- The Xbox, with all its "mighty" Microsoft DRM was made to run linux.
2- It's a PC that, according to the article, geatures a non-proprietary formatting, standard USB ports, ethernet ports and whatnot.
3- comes from a manufacturer that allows you to disable region-coding on its DVD players just by hitting a couple buttons on the remote.
4- does not have any real hopes of signing up the big game developers (especially not japaneese behemoths like SquareEnix, Capcom or Konami)
I think they definitely want their units to be hacked to death. And if they don't, they are blind, ignorant fools. I mean, this is obviously the ultimate set top box. Wireless gamepads? Please! More like wireless remotes...
You could stream media from your computer, install mythTV and record your favorite tv shows, back them up to the computer over ethernet, emulate old arcade/console games. Basically everything the Xbox can do, only more and better thanks to the increased amount of ram and cpu speed. The possibilities are too many to list.
It would be funny if I got it all wrong and this becomes the next ps2...
APE extreme? Makes me think of gorillas.
Yes, you'll be able to emulate Donkey Kong Country or Ape Escape on this machine, as well as watch the Planet of the Apes DVD.
How will I run Windows Update on this machine? Does the console/DVD player need to be activated with Microsoft or Apex when I buy it?
- The spec is not that great. Developments in graphics and CPU are mostly driven by the games industry (do you really need a Radeon 9600 to run Word?), and from what I've heard, all future consoles from the Big Three will have specs that make 1.4GHz look a little lame. Hell, 1.4GHz is only twice as fast as the Xbox processor. The minimum spec for next-gen consoles is an order of magnitude higher than their current ones. At 1.4GHz, it wouldn't be able to run many of today's PC games, let alone the ones to come 5 years hence (the length of the usual console lifecycle).
- "The OS will not be locked down." A critical key to the success of any console is publisher support, and publishers will not support a console that does not have reasonable copy-protection. If the OS is not locked down, then copy-protection goes out the window.
- Who? Via may be famous for their PC hardware, but that is not the same thing as knowing how to run a games console company. They'll have to work
very hard to convince publishers that they're a credible competitor for the Big Three. You could argue that Microsoft (and indeed Sony) were in the same position when they started, but I think they had enough money to throw at that problem.
As the HardOCP article suggests, this could be a kick-ass DivX box, for watching all your media on a big TV. Well, I sure hope so, because you won't be playing many games on it.An open OS also screws up the business model of all console manufacturers, which is to get royalties from licensed publishers. Why would publishers bother to get a license if anyone can write software for it?
> $300.. my graphic card alone cost that much.. getting ripped off from Nvidia and ATI here.
Who modded this insightful? It is obviously a troll.... if you are paying $300 for a graphics card, you are getting a premium product, at a premium price.
Why should this be surprising?
$300 NV/ATI offerings are years ahead of anything S3 has to offer. Here is a massive benchmark that includes (presumably) the best S3 has to offer.
If you want something superior to that S3, look at NV/ATI's offerings in the $100-200 range. There's pleny of options for any need.
If you want a recommendation, based on current market prices, I would go with either a 9200 (for casual gaming/video) or a 9600 pro (for moderate gaming).
9800 would be a step up if you have a need for it, but really only necessary if you want to do 1600x resolution with the latest games.
The unofficial
With Microsoft supplying the OS, this is most definately going to fail as a console system. If it ever got popular, Microsoft would kill it off.
Sigs? We don't need no stinking sigs!
The suggestion that this could be used to play divx encoded video is very tantalizing. $300 for something that could replace my gamecube, DVD player, and the cabling/SVCDs I make would be very well worth it.
I've been thinking of building a freevo box for awhile, but until I go through my next upgrade cycle sometime later this year, it'll be expensive.
Re-using your own legacy hardware for a pvr is what makes it cheap. Rolling your own with new parts is where the high price comes in. TiVO is always cheaper than what you can build NEW, but if you're recycling your 'old' p3 1ghz or so, then it can be more cost effective.
I wouldn't worry about the Linux issues, or hardcore DRM for that matter. Both companies, VIA and Apex are not exactly know for their dogged pursuit of DRM and like technologies. Apex in particular has been slapped down abunch of times for violating DVD 'standards', anyone rememeber the region free DVDs sold everywhere?
There are a bunch of interesting things this console will bring. First is that VIA is really hot for it. They made sure to pester people to be at the press conference, something they are usually more laid back about. They are going to push this thing, trust me.
THe next thing is that I expect it more to be a 'digital convergence' box than a game console. It won't threaten the PS2 or XBox, that is for certain. If you look at the specs of the chip, it is packs a rather modest amount of horsepower, especially in the areas where 3D games need it most, FP. The GPU isn't exactly anything to make people forget about the NV40/R420 either.
What it will do is play DVDs well, most likely PVR functions, and play a lot of slightly modefied PC games more than adequately. If you take a TVs rez into acount, it should more than do the job. Overall, a lot of functionality for the money, but precious little bleeding edge.
I have two hopes for this box, first is reasonably priced games. Second, and more importantly is that VIA makes this a reference design, and Apex is the first of many to come out with a box. Others will follow, some with bigger HDs, other with better video out etc etc.
One thing for sure is that I will be at the press conference. VIA has always done some good things, and if you look at the stuff they showed me at Comdex, there are some really really cool geek toys there. They are all based on the EPIA platform which is small, fanless, and cheap, but more than powerfull enough to do most everything.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=12853
All the people at VIAs show (they were next door to comdex) had really innovative things. If you are into neat devices, I recommend you keep an eye on VIA, the platforms that they spent years creating are just starting to take off. Also, FWIW, I plan to do a full write up as soon as I can after the press conference.
-Charlie
When I read about this and some of the comments, the thought suddenly came to mind that if this sells at all, Microsoft is a big winner. Why? Because you know MS is not giving the embedded Windows XP away for free and since they aren't making this thing, every sale is money in the bank for them. And the embedded XP is probably similar to what they use in the XBox, so they get a little more return on that investment.
As for VIA, this doesn't make much sense as a games console. Usually a console maker takes a loss on the console hardware itself (at least at first) and makes up the losses on game royalties. PC games don't sell anywhere near the number that console games do, plus a PC game publisher pays no royalties to anyone. As it is unlikely that the market will support another proprietary format, games are not likely going to make VIA any money.
Since VIA is in business to make money, one can only conclude that they plan to make a profit on the hardware itself. Being able to play some PC games and do PC-like things then becomes just another marketing bullet point. This is also support by the fact that the thing looks like a more or less standard DVD player. This strategy can work if they keep the manufacturing costs down and do a good job of marketing. My final guess is that this will be marketed primarily in Asia where PC penetration is low which would make a device with some PC functionality more attractive. And the you can bet that games like Starcraft and other titles wildly popular in places like South Korea and China will run on the system without a hitch.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
How do they do it? All their products are made in China.
Considering that Xbox and PS? Will be shooting it out for the top tier market, and Nintendo will pretty much retain their core market from their various franchises; their could very well be a place for the Apex.
Cost of developing for any of the big three consoles is pretty much through the roof, enough to where any of the smaller publishing houses would never have a chance to develop for the current console market. This has translated into stale games overall... I own over 50 PS1 games. I own less than 10 PS2.
Given that Apex could never hope to compete with Sony head to head, they might be able to carve a niche market by having a more diverse creative pool, lower priced games, less cost of development, and being able to take more risks as far new games are concerned.
You wouldn't need tremendous hardware to do that, and since Apex already has positive cash flow from their other ventures; they can ride out building a user base.
All they need is one killer game that is unique to their system. All the other things it can do would just be icing on the cake.
This could very well be a giant killer.
Okay, simple:
1) This baby not only has Composite and S-Video, but also COMPONENT Out!
2) Portability and suitability for the case design.
3) Pre-assembled and parts guaranteed to work with each other.
4) A single platform that can safely be written for. Because it is wide open, you could well see significant Linux development (PVR, games, etc.) without the usual PC worries over sound, gfx, or chipset drivers.
Think of all the time a company like Valve has had to spend making sure that their games work on 'X' brand's gfx card. Then there are differing generations within that company's platform!
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Indeed.
I'm working on recycling my PII-400MHz [512MB RAM; 30GB disk] into a MythTV box. It by itself isn't very beefy, but I've dropped an extra $80 (on top of the regular $100 for a midrange tv tuner card) to buy a WinTV PVR 350, so that the encoding and decoding can be moved off to a dedicated processor, freeing the main cpu and keeping me from having to upgrade. At least, that's the theory; we'll see how reality goes. :)
Eventually, I'll get a mini-ITX board that I can put in a cute container my SO will accept; for now, she's fine with hiding my huge tower behind the sofa. ;) When I do that, I'll see if I can myabe get another, cheaper card; the hardware encoding on the 350 will still be a boon then; I'll be able to easily do 2 streams at once. [so she can watch HGTV and I can record Sci-Fi. :]
That's the other good thing about rolling your own--it may be about equal to the cost of a tivo+subscription, but you simply cannot say that the freedom the MythTV box gives you compares to the highly locked-down nature of the TiVo and such; I can add and remove parts; add more hard drives or external drives; stream it across the 'net so I can watch TV or recordings in my study or at school, etc. I see this as being a big reason for a school to work on such a system--they'd have an extremely flexible system for doing audio and video in the classroom; they need only have enough bandwidth and a client in the room; they could have a big beefy server in the back office storing all the clips for the school, all nicely indexed.
--
Given enough personal experience, all stereotypes are shallow.
Any TV-out is generally pretty crummy with a regular TV, but supposedly this will have component video output (better than S-video) capable of HDTV, which would look much nicer. Also, hopefully this thing will be capable of playing MPEG4 (including Xvid and all of the DivX codecs) - though they didn't mention it.
DVI should by all means be the best of the supplied connections. I am just sad that they didn't include HDMI (including sound) which would have been the absolutley easiest and best.
Let's be honest, a cheap "do everything" product is not going to have high quality D/A converters for picture nor sound. Then it is much better to make use of D/A converters further down the line. This is why cheap DVD players can't compete with expensive ones when it comes to picture quality, although you do need a good display to see it (14" TV nope, good Panasonic 32", could think so, 50" plasma, jupp, 200" expensive projector, you bet).
I'd be happy to see old horrible legacy connectors die. It is bad enough to get par, ser, PS/2, ISA Bios, PATA, PCI, VGA, gamepad, etc on computers when USB2, Firewire 800, DVI, PCI-express, SATA, etc isn't just a whole lot better, but also cheaper (to make) and easier to use.
In my household, I see this being used more for a cheap media jukebox for playing DivX, MP3, OGG, or XviD than anything else. The other main use I would have for it would be as an emulation machine - MAME, Atari800Win, Stella, JNES, WinUAE, STeem, WinSTon, and VisualBoy Advance to name a few. You can find most of those for a modified XBox, but it is a hassle since they would have been created with an XBox Developers Kit and so couldn't be distibuted except through unofficial means. For the latest and greatest FPS a pc would be the logical choice, but for emulation and older games that do not require a fast 3D video card this box would be a good alternative. I could build a similar spec PC for about the same cost of this or less but I like the small form factor and the fact I don't have to spend my time building it.
You can disagree and not be disagreeable, but apparently that's not your... Uh. Style.
I'm not going to call your post 'dumb', but we certainly have a difference of perspective and opinion.
We'll have to wait and see about the video quality won't we? Last I checked, Apex has never used Via components before (unless you know otherwise). Via's Epia quality is excellent. I should know - I've installed at least 6 of the Nehemiah-based Epia's here where I work. Simply beautiful design. Perhaps this is the very reason why both companies decided to work together on this project.
As to the physical design, my point was that it is designed as an entertainment component rather than your average beige box. Sure, you can get a small form factor machine but the cases alone are very expensive for what you get IMHO.
I'm *not* assuming about the "wide open" part. If you read the article you would have noticed that this is being marketed as being hackable.
Where Valve is concerned, well EVERY video game manufacturer deals with card/gfx manufacturer issues. When you're as big as Valve you can expect companies to design their chips and drivers around your game - to an extent. But what about the old cards still floating around? Only a small percentage of people out there are going to actually run out and buy a new gfx card just to play a certain game.
Example: Valve spent months trying to get decent framerates on GeForce FX hardware because of their poor pixel shader implemementation. Gee, why'd they do that? Why didn't they just 'let it go' at 20 FPS? Because they knew quite a few customers out there have this series of cards.
And what's with this assertion that DeltaChrome is 'shitty'? For what purpose? I've seen the test results, and it's certainly no Radeon 9800XT, but consider that you'll be dealing with lower resolutions on TV. Even on 480i HDTV. So then, the difference becomes running Quake III at 400+ FPS on some top of the line card or around 80-100 FPS on the S3. Wow. Funny, I didn't notice the difference either.
How about thinking things through before YOU post next time?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."