Slashdot Mirror
RIAA Takes the Fight to the Streets
Lapzilla writes "In an article from LA Weekly, it would appear the RIAA has taken their fight to the streets. Wearing jackets with "RIAA" emblazoned upon them, they have taken to busting street vendors in an FBI fashion for selling bootleg CDs and DVDs."
Is this for real? Who gave them the authority to do this? If I were to plagiarize someone's work of fiction, it doesn't give that person the right to bust into my bookstore and throw things around. There are legal proceedings to be followed. Whatever happened to decency?
Damon,
http://actionPlant.com
For its part, the RIAA maintains that the up-close-and-personal techniques are nothing new. RIAA spokesman Jonathan Lamy says its investigators do not represent themselves as police, and that the incident reports vendors are asked to sign, in which they agree to hand over their discs, explicitly state that the forfeiture is voluntary.
All right boys... Make sure the boots go up above the knees... We're heading into bullshit territory!
If the RIAA isn't trying to look like the police why do they bother hiring ex-police officers, wear clothing similar to raiding police units, and cavort about as some sort of tactical unit? It is obvious to me that they want the "villains" to think they are the cops (and those street vendors, at least for the time being, are going to believe that they are).
Pink slips that say they handed the stuff over voluntarily or not... They are acting as an official force on duty to confiscate material and they want to look as official as possible to have these individuals fork over the material quickly and without issue. If they are so concerned about their property being "stolen" and resold why don't they contact the real police and have them do it? Probably because the real police have better things to do than worry about what is being sold in Chinatown...
Please remember that this is where your money is going when you decide to purchase music that is "owned" by the RIAA... Busting 12 year olds and funding a "tactical unit" to bust street vendors.
My suggestion, as always, is to support FREE MUSIC. FurthurNET and Sharing the Groove
Good luck RIAA and thanks for yet another humorous charade!
It appears the RIAA is busting people under color of law. If this is true then it is a big deal. This means that the people they are busting believe they are police. Even if you're not a cop, if you present yourself as one, you are considered a state actor by the courts just like a real cop and can be held civilly liable for violations of civil rights. Private citizens acting in their private interests cannot be held liable under the civil rights statutes (primarily 42 USC 1984) but state actors can.
I'd like to see what is going to happen when they try this is some lower income neigborhoods. I for one recommend the RIAA go to Newark, NJ. I've seen bootleggers on the street, I just hope the RIAA guys are carrying guns also becuase I bet most of the bootleggers there are.
oh there's a smashing idea! private citizens' initiatives at law enforcement always turn out to be fair and equatible treatments of not only the letter but the spirit of the law.
2 1337 4 u!
Hello future, the present is calling
...they may all be ex-P.D. Yes, they wear cop-style clothes and carry official-looking IDs. But if they leave people like Borrayo with the impression that they're actual law enforcement, that's a mistake.
From the article this sounds pretty dispicable:
"The RIAA saw it differently. Figuring the discs were bootlegs, a four-man RIAA squad descended on his stand a few days before Christmas and persuaded the 4-foot-11 Borrayo to hand over voluntarily a total of 78 discs.
"They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they'd take me away in handcuffs," he said through an interpreter.
With all the trappings of a police team, including pink incident reports that, among other things, record a vendor's height, weight, hair and eye color"
A disgusting case of intimidation. Way to go RIAA, pick on a 4' 11" guy who hardly knows English.
But is this really any suprise? Plenty of companies have their own private police forces (and small private militaries too) and you still can hire your own army if you've go the cash, which many companies do.
This statement goes a little far in my opinion:
"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he's Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he's Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he's something else. These people change their identity all the time."
Which is a polite way of saying: "Those damn shifty Mexicans! They can't be trusted!" You're not the police! If I don't tell you my real name, there's nothing wrong with that, you idiots.
Casual Games/Downloads
At least the article details out the main question here, which is: Why is the RIAA acting like the police, when they are not the police?
It's one thing to do a "citizen's arrest" or something similar but it is an entirely different subject to dress up in raid-style commando outfits and go around strong-arming people into doing what you want.
They keep this up, and its only a matter of time before they cross the line. When that happens (and it will), the RIAA will only have hurt themselves.
It may save tax dollars - but it is a step toward private business enforcing it's own laws. Has anyone read Snowcrash (by Neal Steavenson) where the different parts of the city all have their own rent-a-cops that enforce different laws? I realize that the RIAA is attempting to combat piracy - but they should not be making claims like "They said they were police from the recording industry or something, and next time they'd take me away in handcuffs..." (from article).
Taking law into your own hands is not something I want to see happen in America - for example some guy starts pulling over speeders that drive by his house, or a store owner shoots two kids that are shoplifting... Simply put I don't trust the RIAA and most private law enforcement agencies. That is why I pay taxes - so I can have a FAIR and UNBIASED bunch of law enforcement.
That said - I think the guy was an idiot for selling pirated stuff and don't support him one bit - it is the tactics that are being used that scare me.
There is always a frontier where there is an open and willing mind
1. They aren't a government agency
2. They aren't able to imprison anyone
3. They can't take someone else's property without permission to do so.
So what are they?
Impersonating a police officer or other gov't agency is a crime, as well as theft by deception so what is the RIAA?
Criminals!!!
~corporate tool, but employed~
If this is true, it's ludicrous. If these cases go to court, I forsee many of these vendors getting off without a hitch. If the RIAA had developed agreements with regional police authorities to work in tandem, then perhaps it would be a good tactic. As it stands, it's simply more scare tactics from an organization that seems bent on making itself the public enemy.
Besides, since when were street vendors the ones that were sharing tens of thousands of tracks per day? I imagine they are hardly the largest part of the problem. Hiring trained security officers to tackle such a small issue is a waste of their money... hmm... wait. Why am I complaining?
It's pretty obvious what they're doing - essentially saying that they have the power to arrest and incarcerate private citizens - and they could end up in some serious legal hot water here. There are all sorts of laws against vigilantism and misrepresenting yourself as an officer of the law. I'd say that this could end up as an even bigger PR mistake than attacking grannies and little kids; there, they were (technically) on the right side of the law. Here, they're blatantly violating the law in order to get what they want. I hope they burn.
Note: I'm not a lawyer. If you need one, get one licensed in your jurisidiction; if you've been hassled by these assholes, you definately need a lawyer. As far as I can tell, this would be a slam-dunk case for a first year law student, let alone an experienced litigator.
That's it. I'm no longer part of Team Sanity.
No, they aren't seizing the property. They are mereley requesting for it to be handed over, otherwise they will pursue legal action. It's like if you stole my bike, i goto your house prove to you it's my bike and you stole it. I then can ask you to give it back, and if you decline, then I call authorities who will force you to do so.
These RIAA pukes are starting to blur the line between corporation and government.
First they started collected taxes by getting a "you'll probably use these for piracy" fee tacked onto recordable media.
Now they're donning lettered windbreakers to act as law enforcement.
What next, are they going to form their own army and invade Thailand on some WMD (weapons of music duplication) witch hunt??? Where does it end?
~Philly
Macy's wont come storming your house pretending to be police, when you are a shoplifting suspect, thats what.
"/Dread"
I think it was both a parody on the old Southpark joke (adopted so well here at /.) and pretty funny (ironic) that someone would pretend to be a pirate buster, to bust pirates using a pirated logo.
On a serious note I am really glad they are going after real pirates, i.e. those nasty organised crime gangs that sell boot-leg materials, making profits to fund other nasty activities. If the RIAA concentrated on going after organised crime (people who make a profit on piracy) rather than individuals who are only after single-use and no profit-at-the-expense-of-others mentality, I may start to like them.
IMHO most people who download music will either subsequently buy the item if they like it (repeated use, better quality from a CD, associated benefits etc), or not buy it if they don't (like music from a radio, occasional use, but don't mind if they have it or not). Organised pirates take money destined for artists/labels from people who would otherwise be likely to pay full (fair, maybe full after discount sometimes) price.
Organised criminals are the real pirates.
--
FreeNET user? Comfortable with the adverse selection?
The most aggregious part of this story is the people they are targeting: low-income individuals (read: people who can't afford an attorney to sue the RIAA for the series of torts they are committing). They are also likely targeting non-English-speaking minorities (who already have trouble getting legal representation in this country anyway). They are robbing these people while threatening to put them in jail (which is plain old vanilla extortion (using the threat of criminal prosecution to settle a civil dispute)). The RIAA's thinking "what bootlegger is going to go to the cops and report that we robbed him?" I guess, under this same reasoning, it should be okay to rob drug dealers (who're they going to report the stolen narcotics to)?
Just when I think I'm growing out of my civil libertarian phase, something like this happens. It's behavior like this that makes me really think it's past time to revoke all those nice little copyright interests they've been granted over the years. We need to raise the issue of "intellectual property right reform" in the presidential and congressional races, and see if there's a politician out there who's not eagerly bending over the table for the media giants.
In general, the RIAA doesn't own copyrights to music, only to specific performances. Unless they can prove that the music was taken from a performance they hold the rights to, they have no rights at all, and it's a case between the copyright holder of that performance and the vendor.
Regards,
--
*Art
Here's a few choice quotes:
RIAA:"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he's Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he's Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he's something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture's worth a thousand words."
Racism, anyone?
How about this gem, regarding parading around looking like cops, but not being cops:
RIAA:If that person feels he was wrongly interrogated or under the false pretense that these people were cops, they should contact their local police station as a victim. We'll sort it all out.
Riiiiiiiight. Make sure you have your receipts on you before you try this one, kids.
It used to be fun to tow the Slashdot line and bash the RIAA for being evil...but you know what? They actually are evil. This is some pretty twisted shit. Racial profiling, impersonating the police, harassment, photographing likely suspects...unbelieveable.
Weaselmancer
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Modded as funny but...
Some of the busts of CD-copying have been of rather major rings. That guy on the street-corner might just be an independant, but where is he getting his CD's from. This is like the kazaa-kiddies at home, some of these guys are affiliated with dangerous gangs.
So what happens when those selling the CD's start losing revenue because of RIAA "police." What happens when they plant armed vendors or wait in a dark corner for the RIAA to show.
Do the RIAA cops have guns hidden somewhere on their person? Probably not, especially not legally. Could some of those involved in the underground CD market have guns? Almost certainly.
but the RIAA stormtrooper methods are so questionable that the actions should not be praised, regardless of the fact that these vendors might be a better target than the end user.
I was in NYC a few months ago, and I was amazed at how many vendors were selling bootleg copies of movies that were in the theater, including some that has just been released a few days prior.
What amazed me is how RIAA/MPAA was suing all these internet pirates who made $0 from file trading, and yet did not go after those who DID make money from piracy. Even if you take into account there is more online piracy than real-world, its a lot easier to go down the street, find someone selling a movie on a street corner, than it is to grab their IP, and go through the various legal steps to get that person's information.
Well, they have the guy from the BATF running the anti-piracy wing now, right?
Expect more of this 'agency-esque' antics....
---- Booth was a patriot ----
They're harassing street vendors.
There's no store to "get out" of, and it's likely that the guy selling tapes and CD's, and the other guy selling tamales, don't technically have a right to do what they are doing, it's just tolerated. At least that's the case in the Arizona town where I live.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
They have no right to do this. They're not police or an authority designated by the government, they're pinkertons hired by the RIAA to enforce their rules.
Um, no. They're agents of the owners of the copyrights being infringed. They can legally do anything the original copyright holder could do including agreeing not to sue the offender in exchange for ceasing the infringing activity. While they might not be legally justified in using force to seize the property, NO ONE is alleging they did. Their attire is completly irrelevant to this point.
If they represented themselves as police officers then they are guilty of a criminal offense, which is completely orthogonal to the confiscation.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
...a guy selling stuff on the street raid-style, scare the shit outta him...
You refer to missing the point... the point is these 'guys that get the shit scared out of them' know they are selling illegal stuff, they are not angels, they are not even people who've fallen on hard times, they are nasty characters helping violent criminal gangs.
If a bunch of ex-cops are sponsored to go and scare them then fine. These are people that scare intimidate others, that 'protect' (as in protection racket) others.
If the violent gang down me street had got pissed off some other gang and got roughed up by them fine, I'm happy with that. I know the other gang are not going after me. The police know this is gang-on-gang stuff, I'm sweet.
If you think that 'to scare the shit' out of these bootleggers is step 1 and step 2 is to scare you, so in turn you defend the violent gangs' right to break the law (by opposing their persecution), profit from others and abuse you, them you, sir, are missing the point.
--
FreeNET user? Comfortable with the adverse selection?
Well, let's see...
Nah, I'm sure they harrass everyone equally.Too bad they won't really find out how much authority they don't have until one of the scumbag pirates decides to defend themselves. This also brings up an interesting point- it's always easier to start with doing this stuff to scumbags first- once it becomes common practice, then you can start doing it to other people.
IIRC from my intellectual property law class, raids must be conducted by law enforcement- the IP owner only gets to go along to identify what was not legit.
Taking the law into your own hands like this makes you just as much a criminal as the person you're after. (and the person you're after is probably a better criminal than the hack that's doing it for the first time)
Take a step onto the illegal side, and you can't expect the law to protect you.
DISCLAIMER: This post was not checked for speling and grammar- if you complain- you're a whiner
"How is this different from Macy's in New York, which has its own holding cell in their basement for shoplifters who have been detained and are awaiting the NYPD?"
AFAIK that's called "Citizen's Arrest" and AFAIK is legal in most places. You hold them until the cops arrive.
What folks are worried about is the RIAA doing more than holding or not bothering to call the cops at all.
~Dalcius
Rome wasn't burnt in a day.
It's my experience that governments' initiatives at law enforcement turn out to be unfair and inequitable (and I have the police-inflicted injuries to prove it). Citizens' private initiatives are no more or less likely than governments' initiatives to be unfair or inequitable - at least if the RIAA comes to my door I can tell them to fuck off.
You seem to be forgetting something here. The reason you can tell the RIAA to fuck off if they come to your door is because you have a reasonable expectation that, if they don't fuck off, you can call on the government to remove them from your property.
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
First of all, you can't give someone the right to "wave the gun around" without giving them the right to shoot it. This is a practical matter: as soon as a gun is drawn, all bets are off because life is at risk unless the person without the gun is totally submissive, and far away to begin with. Police don't kill people very often because we hold them to a higher standard than a normal citizen. We expect them to be able to fend someone off until it's necessary to kill.
So, if a bunch of people who aren't police officers "raid" you, it wouldn't be out of the question to consider that you were being attacked. And it wouldn't be out of the question to consider that they could kill you, and that this may be your last opportunity to save your life.
If you know you're not in danger, however, it is murder. But if it's a bunch of scary looking people against one guy that has a bunch of cash on him (because he's been selling illegal stuff all day), I don't think the police would ask too many more questions.
As far as public vs. private property, I don't really see how that matters. If you're being mugged on public property, you can still shoot the guy if you think it may save your life. The only indicator is that it is more likely that someone is coming to kill you if they actually trespass, and so deadly force is more easily justified. It's certainly not required, however.
Social scientists are inspired by theories; scientists are humbled by facts.
...staff of ex-cops
...Figur[ed] the discs were bootlegs
..."They said they were police from the recording industry or something..."
- But if they leave people like Borrayo with the impression that they're actual law enforcement, that's a mistake.
NEGATIVE. That's a FELONY.- oversees
... contractors who sniff out bootleg discs
Apparently without a nose... Did they have any proof other than a hispanic male selling CDs and DVDs from a parking lot booth? They didn't "figure" anything; they blindly assumed guilt based on the person and the place.- the incident reports
... explicitly state that the forfeiture is voluntary
Voluntary my ass! A bunch a dudes dressed and behaving like cops "asking" you to hand over your stuff. Right. And I bet they don't carry any weapons either.continued sale would be a violation of civil and criminal codes (like it isn't aleady?)
- The process of confiscating bootleg CDs from street vendors is exactly what the RIAA should be doing," said Jason Schultz
Wrong, Mr. Schultz. RIAA is not a law enforcement division. They have no more right than any other citizen to "confiscate" another persons property.Assuming what they are doing is illegal, it seems like Barrayo would have to "contact [his] local police station as a victim" for them to take action against the RIAA.
It sounds like they're mainly targeting hispanics; what are the odds they're only targeting illegal aliens (which isn't to say all hispanics are illegal aliens, but that Mexico isn't terribly far from LA, so it's probably safe to say many of the illegal aliens in that area are hispanic). If Barrayo or the others are illegal aliens, I think "[contacting] their local police station" is the last thing they want to do.
That aside, do the laws you mentioned (impersonating a police officer, etc.) even apply to illegal aliens? Maybe the RIAA is more intelligent than we think.
Now for the obligatory Family Guy quote:
"Oh you speak english?"
"No, just that sentence and this one explaining it."
"You're kidding, right?"
"Que?"
USE='clever' emerge -u sig
"It is logical deduction that where ever illegal money is to be made its location will be competed over. They will compete better if well organised. Bigger rewards will attract more intelligent, more forceful and more violent gangs. Bootleg music/movies attract very high revenue streams."
Legitimate music/movies also attract very high revenue streams. Your logic would imply that the MPAA and RIAA should also resort to the use of force to protect their markets ... Hey, you could be on to something here!
"I supose bending the words fits in better with your supporting these violent people"
I'm not bending any words. Four unsubstantiated statements of yours implied that all bootleggers are connected to violence. I disagree. Now, speaking of bending words, would you care to point out where I expressed any support for violent people (see you are at it again, assumptions of guilt in connection with violent crime just because they are selling CDs - if they are guilty of violence, prove it (as you say did at the market, very commendable)).
Or perhaps you feel we should just abandon the idea of due process. How about a new justice: Some <ethnic minority|majority of your choice> are violent criminals therefore hired thugs should be able to rough up all <ethnic minority|majority of your choice>.
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
This drives me nuts. People, remember who you are bashing. The RIAA is just a front for media companies that don't want their images tarnished.
This is a list of RIAA members
Remember - they *want* you to be upset at the RIAA. It is a convenient way to keep your attention focused on an antagonist, rather than the companies that it is backed by.
>I was just wondering when this would start
>happening.
I'll tell you exactly when it STOPS happening. When they try an illegal tactic like this against a person with the most vague clue, I don't know, like maybe they've seen an episode of COPS or Judge Judy?
"What police department did you say you were with?"
"Can you show me that search warrant again?"
"I'll need you to contact my attorney if you want any further information."
"Am I free to leave?"
"You won't mind if I just call the regular police and get their opinion about your offer to use handcuffs on me, right?"
"How about you step off my property right this minute, and I won't prosecute you for trespassing?"
***ANYTHING*** other than "here is all my property, please take it, and don't even leave me your card....
If nothing else, make them forcibly take your property, then you have a simple case of robbery, maybe armed robbery depending on how your state regards the weapon status handcuffs.
Hell you don't even give your property to the police when they arrest you on a felony, without a reciept and clear paperwork.
If you get taken by crooks, RIAA jacket or no RIAA jacket, you need to use some common sense and you also need to seek recourse to the law immediately.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Actually, anyone can do this. It's called a citizens arrest. The police aren't some sort of super-citizen. They are simply citizens that have the full time job of law-enforcement.
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
from getting an 'official looking' jacket with RIAA on it, an "id" and busting a street vendor myself and scoring some free cd's? Well what's to stop me other than the fact I'm a lazy git.
Last I checked "impersonating an RIAA employee" is not illegal or breaking any law I'm aware of, and if they give you their stuff voluntarily it's not stealing.
It'd be FUNNY as heck to hear of fake RIAA agents busting vendors like this...
--- www.f-theocean.com
There is a very easy way to stop this. We need to relize that the RIAA-police force are just a bunch of hired private thugs. That said they can not represent themselfs as police officers. So I suggest we start a spot light compaiegn. We should hangout where they work, and follow them as they do their job.. perfectly legal. Then we publicly and loudly heckle them as they attempt to raid, at the same time we inform the victums that they are victums and call the real police, say the victum belived these were some kind of police officers and file a report that leads to a complaint as impersonatinting an officer. Nothing stops unpopular vigilatism faster then a large public glare.
This is what happens when we have an administration that shreds our constitution. Corporations are the rule of the land in all but words.
is a few people selling CDs from non-RIAA bands, public domain stuff, and legitimately purchased recordings.
I'm sure these rent-a-cops won't know the difference and a couple of well-publicised lawsuits for false arrest, impersonating a police officer, rackateering, and harrassment/intimidation will very quickly turn the public opinion against the recording companies.
There is no right to take the law into your own hands, no matter how deep your pockets are, and these assh*les need a lesson.
Read, L
"Sounds like a nice little list of felonies. Hopefully some civic-minded FBI agent will recognize this for what it is and arrest the RIAA leadership under the RICO act and seize all their (personal and business) assets."
Outstanding.
Did you happen to notice my post on the subject here? Or my journal entry over there?
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Ah, right. No due process of law to confiscate another person's property. No judicial review. No warrant. Just a hunch. And...Maybe the property isn't illegal but take it anyway.
I thought we had a Constitution in this country that prohibits such things. I think I read something called Article IV that said something like, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
I guess the RIAA SWAT Team hasn't read that yet.
Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
And that's about nothing. If they manage to prove that the material was both infringing and unauthorized they might be able to take the vendor to court and then do something violent to the vendor's bank account.
What they did was pretend to be policemen because the above would not work. They dressed like policemen and they hired former policemen who knew how to play the part. In fact, it would be hard for a policeman to act like anything but a policeman, and one joyfully liberated from all normal lawful restraint. That's against the law and the way they acted might have violated the law even if they were really policemen. Let's look:
"A large percentage [of the vendors] are of a Hispanic nature," Langley said. "Today he's Jose Rodriguez, tomorrow he's Raul something or other, and tomorrow after that he's something else. These people change their identity all the time. A picture's worth a thousand words."
Hmmm, bigots too, sounds like arbitrary enforment based on race. Bzzzzt.
"We notify them that continued sale would be a violation of civil and criminal codes. If they'd like to voluntarily turn the product over to us, we'll destroy it, and we agree we won't sue," he explained.
Extortion, theft, destruction of evidence, a real policeman would be put under the jail for that.
This is strong arm bullshit. What are they going to do to those who refuse to co-operate? How many pictures are they going to take before they start to feel silly and start breaking legs. They are out there in their silly jackets because they know they can't sue these vendors in any cost effective way. They can't find the factories so they have targeted the visable outlet. It's a waste of their time unless they start breaking some heads. We now see the RIAA for what they are: Thugs.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
They take anything on CD-R. A while ago there was a story on /. about these RIAA goons going into actual stores, not street corners, and taking all of their stuff on CD-R, which just so happened to be legit indy stuff.
ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI
Many of these comments suggest that the people being busted have a storefront (that can be trespassed upon), have an attorney or claim one, and, most importantly, have a basic understanding of and faith in their own rights. In fact it seems more likely that the RIAA folks are deliberately targeting people who are safe to hassle because they do not have those things.
If these people are lower-income (parking cars for a buck a car), selling something in a place they don't have a clearly established right to be, or recent (and possibly undocumented) immigrants, they're not going to lawyer up at the first sign of trouble. They don't trust the authorities and they Don't Want Trouble.
On the other hand, we are talking about the LAPD. It's hard to imagine how a middle-aged Hispanic man working on the LA streets would have any concerns about their flawless record with respect to fair and even-handed behavior. :-)
It's the little things.