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NASA Scientists Get Custom 24h39m-per-day Watches
blair1q writes "In order to more easily keep solar time on Mars, (or maybe just as a lark) JPL has ordered specially-modified mechanical watches for the Mars Exploration Rover Mission. One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
Totally, completely useless. A complete waste of money.
When will they be available to the public? And how much? I want one.
Because its faster strapping on a watch that works already rather than spending a bunch of hours making the linux solution work...
The Rolax I pickup up on Market Street does that already!
Great!
:)
Now I just need a watch to keep track of that other irregular period
*duck*
Being able to project the orbit of a decaying planet around a binary Pulsar-White Dwarf pair is not the same as writing a C++ program in an embedded enviroment. Albeit, I'm sure proficiency among the scientists in the programming languages are far higher than that of the general public, but it must be far simpler to just buy a mechanical watch that is nearly guaranteed to be flawless by nature, or work for days on making a bug free watch that is far more prone to failure.
And why did you staple the trout to the RAM?
80 past 2 on April 47th. I just hope they don't fuck up the conversion, again.
And, as a layman knowing nothing about the intricacies of a 100%-mechanical wristwatch, it sounds like a frickin' impressive one.
Mad props to Mr. Anserlian!
-----
PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
Two wonder why these literal rocket scientists need to know what time it is here anyhow...
Three wonder why these literal rocket scientists don't just have really big clocks on the wall, like at the airport...
And four of us want to know why they can't just hire a booth babe to walk around and tell them what time it is... :)
"One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
because mechanical watches are much cooler and act as a souvenir of the project. next, why don't you go ask astronauts to trade in their mission patches for a linux box with the logo as the desktop background. don't expect to be popular with them.
If we're serious about heading into space, we need to develop a way of telling time that's not linked directly to Earth. Sure, we'll have conversions and such, but we need an independent time measurement.
Why must everything on Slashdot be Linux-based?! If they were going to make a watch on a different time system to normal then wouldnt it make more sense to just build a slightly different watch? Analogue you just add a few more teeth to the gears and digital shouldn't be too hard to alter. Putting Linux on a watch is just silly.
--Muzz
That would be a sundial right?
DROS - Open-Source Robot Software
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
It is always such a relief to know that Slashdot readers know more about Astronauts should do and use than NASA engineers.
Maybe that was a bit harsh, but have you ever seen a sophisticated piece of consume electronics, such as a Palm Pilot or laptop, taken along with astronauts on their missions?
Electronics in space have to be able to handle conditions that your favorite PDA engineers did not exactly have in mind--even on an astronauts wrist. Notice that the watch is not even digital, and that if you think about it, it is probably not because the Engineers didn't read The Hitchhiker's Guide.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
I'll tell you why they got mechanical watches and didn't hack up a Linux watch:
1. Generally speaking digital watches are fugly. There's no Movado Digital Watch for a reason.
2. Commitment. This watch will ALWAYS run ~24h39m. You can give it to your grandkids. Your crap-ass programmable digital watch won't make it that far. Also, it can be made back into a 24h watch. There are no digital watch family heirlooms.
3. A mechanical watch is a thing of craftsmanship and beauty. A watch running Windows or Linux is cute for maybe 10 minutes then its a watch that does so many other things that they forgot the "tells time" part.
it is a difficult feat of engineering. Because a mechanical watch is a combination of skill, craftmanship and beauty. Because someone said it couldn't be done. Because it is a very geeky thing to do.
Some of the mechanical watches with complications, like a perpetual calendar (keeps track of day, date and even leap year so you never have to reset the date) that has a wheel that revolves once every four years, are truly engineering marvels. Then there are tourbillons, repeaters, etc...all great feats of skill. I would buy one of these watches just for the skill involved in designing and testing it.
I would think slashdotters would understand doing something fairly "out there" just for the sake of doing it. And these are very useful. Granted useful for a small number of users, but useful nonetheless.
Now, how about a Beowulf cluster of Timex Sinclairs?
You can have one! Just not yet, and who knows at what cost...
After he accommodates all rover team members who wish to own a custom-made Mars watch, he will market his patented rarity to the public.
If I had a spare couple of grand (they'd have to cost at least that, given they're custom-modified mechanical watches), I'd seriously consider one.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
OK, that was a slightly trollish subject line, but I'll try to make up for it.
... efficiency is for machines, not necessarily for people.
I think that as geeks, we all (well, most of us -- I don't have arms, you insensitive clod!) go through the phase where we want that digital watch that has EVERYTHING. It should have at least two different clocks! And a stopwatch! And two timers! And, umm, a calculator. While we're at it, throw a little game in there (I seem to recall one of my first watches had a Simon Says game). Hell, these days, you can get a watch with a USB connection.
Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but at some point some of us change our preferences. Maybe it's because I spend my time on computers 85% of my waking hours, but I've become fond of such things as writing letters with a fountain pen on some nice vellum paper -- Coinciding with my preference for simple, elegant analog watches. This watch on my wrist can't do much -- it tells the time, and the date, and actually has an alarm, but that's about it. It won't tell me what time it is in Hong Kong and it's not heavy enough to kill someone with blunt trauma like those big Citizens. But you know what? I like it. It's light, it's thin, and it looks pretty on my wrist.
I don't mean to suggest there's some sort of 'maturity' that causes some of us to like analog watches -- liking analog watches isn't better than liking digital watches, just different. It's not the height of efficiency, but
If I could afford it and I had the same problem, I'd have gone for mechanical watches too. I'd buy one of these, but I'd feel like a total poseur.
If Think Geek could get someone to make these I would buy one just for the sheer geekyness of it ;)
"I bow to no man" - Riddick
The long version is written up here . The short version is: A handicapped friend had an unusual and extraordinary need. We met up with a master gunsmith who was so fascinated by this new challenge he'd never had before that he swept us to the head of the line despite having weeks of backlog and spent a weekend machining this unique one-off item for us. Oh and then, because "you couldn't afford to pay what this actually cost," refused to accept money for it.
We're (pretty much) all geeks here. We're all attracted to that challenge, to that thing we've never done before. I know I'm much more likely to do something for free (or at least below market rates) if it's interesting and unusual than if it's yet another damned system administration task. I know I'm not alone in our field, and my experience suggests that masters of the more mechanical arts are often similar in their attraction to the unusual job. Especially given the small number of people who'd be worthy of having such a watch, and the fact that this isn't being asked for for-profit, I would't be surprised if this guy cut them a break on it if NASA wasn't paying.
Head... about... to... EXPLODE!!!
I wouldn't be surprised if the mission leaders bought them for the crew. A few of the mission leaders were my professors and they are all very generous - (one took time out of his schedule and wrote a recommendation which helped me get into medical school - what a great guy...)
:)
I saw in From the Earth to the Moon that the team leader of Apollo 12 bought his 2 crewmembers and himself matching Corvettes!!! So as you can see, NASA people are very internally-generous
Now, with the Mars day being slightly longer than the Earth day and there are watches to match this, how do they reckon the days there? Here on Earth there is the system of Julian Days, which serves well for Earth-bound day-counting and marking dates of interesting events. This, like the UTC clock, seems to be very Earth-centric.
So are anyone contemplating a Martian calendar, or some kind of linear numbering of Mars Days, so there will be a logical date for when the various Rovers and others have landed, and other interesting events?
For all I know, such a calendar may already exist, but all I have seen of it has been various science-fiction books.
SIGBUS @ NO-07.308
"... One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
Because in 10 years, a PalmOS watch is just a clucky, very outdated piece of plastic, while these will be collectable, a nice reminder for the team members who took part, and, well, basically cool. I say 'well done' since this was obviously oganised by a couple of the guys in their spare time.
Since these are eventually going to be sold to the public I'd hope the team all get their's engraved and/or made unique in some way.
"... Garo said. "I spent more than $1,000 trying to figure this out " damaging watches, trying different parts, just searching for a way."
Ah, these would be the limitied edition 'Beagle 2' watches.
You might wonder, but after helping several aerospace engineering students (AKA rocket scientists) through their ONE Java course, I certainly don't.
Remember, it's rocket science, not programming! I, for one, can tell the difference between source code and rocket fuel. Past that, I don't know much about rocket fuel. On that note, I doubt most rocket scientists know much about programming.
Dark Nexus
"Sanity is calming, but madness is more interesting."
Besides which, modifying mechanical watches is a cool hack, although old school. Maybe you kids wouldn't approve, but guys like the TMRRC would want one so they could take it apart and do it themselves.
More disconcerting is the quote from the article;
One hopes the amazement is on the part of the JPL staffer, and not on the part of the master watchmaker. Such accuracy used to be commonplace on all but the cheapest mechanical watches. Or maybe since most market watches (as opposed to chronometers) are marketed for fashion rather than accuracy nowadays, it is astounding for a modern watch.a slideruler like conversion tool...something cheaper than having mechanical ones specially made.
I'd rather see that money go towards the next rover or the next Mars mission. But this does leave room for some ways for NASA to raise funds in other ways than from taxes....by selling merchandise to fans! A collector's Mars watch where the proceeds go towards funding the Mars Exploration Project.
I think the original joke was intended to sound like a cheap (and therefore inaccurate-for-earth) knockoff of Rolex watches.
And yes, the joke is a lot less funy when it has to be explained.
-- "This world is a comedy to those who think, a tragedy to those who feel."
When engineers could build something without using anything that had been compiled.
paintball
Get your offical "Mars time" watch replica for $99 today at thinkgeek.com...
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
I hope everybody has had the chance to view the panorama shot composed of somewhere around 225 photographs.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Your Rolax is a fake! Every literate person know it's a Rolleks.
Grundgesetz * 23. Mai 1949 - 30. November 2007 - http://www.vorratsdatenspeicherung.de/
This site has a description of a Mars clock built by Ralph B. Mentzer of the Hamilton Watch Company, ca. 1954.
It's a fascinating timepiece, with a 16-inch diameter, a 24-hour face and almost 400 working parts. It could even keep track of the difference in calendar measurements between earth and Mars.
However, apparently only two of these clocks were ever built. One is at the Smithsonian Institution and the other resides at the National Watch and Clock Museum (and the clock seems to be visible on this page).
"Folks just call him Buckethead." -- Les Claypool
It is not very impressive. In a mechanical watch is a balance wheel and a hair spring. The wheel and spring are oscilating (that is making a mechanical watch tick). The Oscilation period is the time base for the watch. You can change the oscilation period by altering the mass of the balance wheel (adding weight makes the oscilation period longer) or changing the spring constant of the hair spring (make it less stiff or langer for a longer oscilation period).
The formula for the oscillation time is
T = 2*pi*sqrt(J/k)
with
J = moment of inertia
k = the spring constant.
It looks like the watches have added weight on de balance wheel. He did a naice job but it is not earth (or mars) shattering.
Nyh
I've always thought the system proposed by (Kim Stanley Robinson) in the Mars Trilogy books was kinda neat:
All clocks stop at midnight, wait 40 minutes, then tick over to 00:01
(Yes, there are practicality and "yes, but *WHAT'S the TIME*??!?" issues, but I still reckon it'd be cool)
For my wife's birthday recently, I spent a whole lot of money on a watch. Then she had me take it back to the shop becuase it was losing about forty minutes a day.
I could have just told her it was a Mars Watch, but instead I get it "fixed" to show plain old boring GMT. Darn.
evil math within Nature's Cubic Creation!
I also have a spacepen. And it sounds like you have a lemon.
Mine has been idle for years (since I got a keyboard) and it works like the day I got it.
Upside down and underwater no less.
---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
Done and done.
There is a palm version out there, too, though, IMHO, it doesn't work all that well. Or, more accurately, it doesn't meet the standard set by this program.
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
I did: MarsClock
Space and Computers.
There could actually be a rational reason why these watches might improve mission reliability, and thus save money. One of the main problems with earth ground system operations is the ability of the ground staff to operate in several time zones at the same time. Although the ground system is (typically) on ZULU (or GMT), their shift patterns run on local time, and often the planning cycles (passes etc) operate at on offset from GMT. An example is the ROSAT day, or the RADARSAT planning offset, which is set off 19 hours later than GMT, thus the start of the RADASAT day is at GMT 19:00 and extends 24 hours to 19:00 the next day. Further, the antennae are scattered around the globe, and the antennae ground staff also operate their shift patterns on local time (they have a life outside the blockhouse) but run passes on ZULU time. These can be quite confusing, and a lot of planning screw ups (running passes on the wrong day etc) can result. If this gets out of hand, the wrong command can get sent at a bad time and that's that, everybody is suddenly unemployed! As Mars rover is (essentially) an automated MARS based ground system, perhaps these watches are an attempt to get better organized? Or maybe they are a status gimmick.
I stole this
Sounds like a Seiko 7S26 or ETA 2846
Nothing wrong with either but but I'd assume they'd go for a faster beat 25 jewel ETA 2824 or 2892 (which is also 21 jewels but watches with this movt useally retail for a lot more than US$150, even though wholesale the movt is a lot cheaper than what people think)
I found one that said Rolexxx -- ended up sitting there for a half hour arguing with the guy that since it was a fake he should sell it to me for $5...or I would continue to ruin sales (which I did as folks came by)...I got it for $7.50 (which is what the guy claimed he paid for it) to get me out of there :-)
I'll be sad the day I stop in NYC and find out the patriot act or whatever has taken these guys off the streets...*EVERYONE* knows they are fakes...a least the ones with half a brain in their head, but you gotta admit, for even $20, they make the best cheap watches you'll ever find. I'd pick one of these up over anything I could find at the local discount retailers...the fact that they blatently try to rip off the names of high society jewlery is just an added bonus.
I gave one of these as a Christmas present to a friend and TOLD him it was a fake...he claims it was one of the best gifts he'd gotten that year and enjoys it for the subversiveness of it...
The watchmaker's has the watches for sale on his website. Three different brand: Orient, Seiko, and Citizen. Prices start at around $145 for the watch and $35 for the upcoming Mars watchface.
Hacking a digital watch is nontrivial, especially if you have the same size and power consumption requirements as the original watch. The power budget of digital watches is austere, to say the least; typical drain of the entire watch, including oscillator, divider chain, and display driver, is 500 nA at 1.5 V, or 750 nW (a nanowatt is one billionth of a Watt).
Watches use 32.768 kHz AT-strip (tuning fork-style) quartz crystals (like these) as a compromise between size and low power consumption. The smaller the size of a crystal operating in a given mode of oscillation, the higher the frequency of oscillation. However, the power consumption of a digital switching circuit increases directly with the switching frequency (it is P (Watts) = CV^2f, where C is the capacitance of the switching device in Farads, V is the difference in volts between a logical 1 and a logical 0, and f is the frequency of switching in Hz). Having a higher oscillation frequency requires a longer frequency divider to divide the oscillator's output down to the required 1 Hz output, which raises the power consumption of the divider (mostly due to the higher switching frequency of the first few stages).
Having the crystal oscillate at a binary multiple of the desired output (32768 = 2^15) makes the divider circuits especially simple (15 divide-by-two stages in series). Having a non-binary multiple would require more switching circuitry and add to power consumption.
To hack such a system to Mars time would require either changing the crystal frequency or the divider string. Changing the divider string would require modifying the watch chip, a design task that would be relatively simple, digital design tools being what they are, but expensive and time-consuming, since a new IC mask set would have to be generated and a new lot of chips run through the fab--say, $250k and 3-6 months, if you started today. Not very desirable if you're a JPL guy funding this out of your own pocket (which is how this was done).
The alternative is to modify the crystal frequency. AT-strip tuning-fork watch crystals are cheap because they're made in a lithographic manner not dissimilar to that of IC production--a mask is made, resist is printed over a quartz blank, the blank is etched, etc. This produces nearly-identical parts in bulk, making them cheap. This is different from the standard AT-cut crystals with which most amateurs are familiar; AT-cut crystals are individually cut and polished to frequency. Since AT-strip crystals are made in bulk, one cannot get a small lot of them inexpensively, as one can AT-cut crystals; the manufacturer must make a new mask set for the new frequency, a relatively expensive task if one will only purchase, say, a hundred crystals. Modifying the crystal frequency is less expensive than making a new watch chip; however, neither option is suitable for the volumes and price points the JPL guys were trying to hit. Ergo, the mechanical watch.
Because a mechanical wrist watch (presumably with manual or autowind) does not need an electrical power source.
So when the batteries in the Mars lander are flat, you can still count down till you freeze to death...
Since this is a government agency, they have to seek out bidders and give everyone an equal opprotunity to produce this custom watch. The bidder who can make the most complicated watch with the most parts made in the most congressional districts and states and initially within budget gets the contract. Nasa spends more money, but evenly distributes amongst congressional districts. This makes congress happy and Nasa gets more moeny to spend on overpriced, useless shit.
If I drive fast enough at the red light, it'll appear green.
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?
Maybe it's because they've got better things to do with their time?
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?
Because that would be pointless?
All they had to do was change a few gear ratios instead of actually figuring out how to use linux, or getting an SDK for PalmOS, then actually writing the program and hope there's no bugs in it.
They're rocket scientists... not script kiddies who lavish in anything that is related to linux. (Go ahead, call me a troll... you know it's true)
The real question should be why they even needed to do it. It's not like knowing the time on mars is a huge deal.
Keep in mind that these guys need much more precision than your average joe, kinda like the railmen back in the day. It's not like they can tell the rover to get up at eleven-thirty-ish, wander over to that dune and shoot us back an e-mail. If they're a few seconds off they'll end up talking to the elvis-face instead of the mars rover.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't...
Because they are literal rocket scientists, if it is not a rocket (or space probe), they don't know what to do with it. Metaphorical rocket scientists are much more adaptable in that they can also deal with assorted flying machines and other fun widgets. Neither group is good at computer programming unless it is for data processing or paycheck enhancement purposes (see sig that I promise was there before I saw the article).
And a non-24hr watch has that 'ooh, shiny' thing going for it.
One wonders why these literal rocket scientists didn't just get a software programmable Linux or PalmOS based wrist-computer and hack together a Mars-time display application into it?"
Because they're keepsakes. Besides, mechanical watches are durable. When the hero sets the bomb that collapses the mouth of the only cave that leads to the underworld in which the Martians are preparing their invasion force, you can be damned sure that he'll be glad he's got a watch that survived all those pulse weapons and electric torture lassos and whatnot, so that he's quite sure he's got three seconds to blast off before the whole planet goes Kaboom!.
Or whatever.
More importantly, they're collectables. All the astronauts are given hardware that they get to take home after the mission as a keepsake. I mean, if these guys are going to make the only form of travel more dangerous than ValuJet for like three months each way without peanuts solely for the sake of our curiosity, then we can god damned well buy them a watch.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
More precisely, they rely on a mass oscillating under the influence of a spring. That mass (and its associated moment of inertia) stays fixed regardless of the gravity field you're in (or in freefall, as in orbit). The same goes for the important properties of the spring (within any reasonable gravity field.)
Watches are not gravity dependent--otherwise, you'd be in trouble if you held your arm the wrong way. Pendulum clocks, on the other hand, are very much dependent on gravity--their weight is quite important.
$5 quartz watches still work by giving a quartz crystal juice and dividing its constant Hz by some number to keep time, correct?
Correct, and a quartz oscillator and custom circuitry would certainly produce a perfectly serviceable watch for this purpose. Unfortunately, the minimum lot size for such custom work (as mentioned in the article) is ten thousand units--many more than JPL was anticipating a need for.
~Idarubicin
There is much pleasure to be gained in useless knowledge.
remember these are the same geniuses who spent millions of dollars to design a pen that could write in zero G. Did you know what the Soviets did? they used pencils!