Application-Centricity in Our Schools?

bccomm asks: "Here on Slashdot, we continually hear about new successes in bringing free software closer to the desktop. What about schools? I am a student and was once asked to redo an entire presentation because I had used Prosper instead of PowerPoint. The explanation I received from him was 'the curriculum says I'm supposed to teach Word, PowerPoint, etc, not word processing and presentations.' How is this for irony: presentation has to be about volunteer work/hobbies, and I chose to show that my computer runs a daily NetBSD snapshot. I think it just lost some effectiveness. Is anyone else bothered by this?"

Comments

Hate to say this, but...

[CliffH]

... as stupid as this sounds, if the project were to be done using Word and Powerpoint about your hobbies, you should have at least made the attempt to make it look like you did it on Word and Powerpoint, regardless of your personal viewpoints. The easiest would have been to put it in an MS compatible format when you were doing it so that you could display and turn in what you had to in a form that the teacher would have liked. Being an ex-tutor, there were some stupid things I had to adhere by and one of them was that all electronic documents had to be in an MS readable format for some of the courses (they were A+, Net+, and MCSE courses). Now, being the Linux tutor also, when it came time for things to be done at home (research, projects, etc) the only thing my students had to adhere to was keeping the documents in MS readable formats so that other tutors could review if necessary. This kept everyone happy as they got to work in what they wanted (Linux, BSD, OS/2, Winwhatever, etc) and still kept with course guidelines.

CliffH

Re:Hate to say this, but...

[jakoz]

Spot on.

To the thread author: welcome to the real world, where youll find people rejecting your work for things as insignificant as font size or program version.

Consider it a learning experience which could have been worse... at least you were allowed to redo it.

Re:Hate to say this, but...

[den_erpel]

How did this get modded as insightful? This reasoning is exactly what the M$ programs are about. Being an (ex)tutor myself, these formats are not good and are too (ego)centric.

Why would one need to save to a platform specific format and not to a platform independent format? M$ users can just as well save to pdf, rtf or whatever with their programs. Those documents could then be read with the platform of choice and in most cases with the viewer of choice. I for one was not interested in rebooting my development machine to check the submissions (project reports etc) or going to a lab to find a free M$ machine.

Students I was guiding knew this and submitted their files in a platform independent format (at the end OOo). It also made them think why and to what purpose they actually use e.g. M$ Word: In most cases, it's an elephant that is used to squat a mosquito: you don't need such a monster program to type in a small report/question of a couple of pages or an abstract of the project.

As for the story, I can just conclude that the teacher was underqualified: why would you want a ppt file for watching somebody elses presentation???

Especially with the advent of OOo, I can see no reason whatsoever why ppl (even the less tech savvy) should use M$ formats...

Re:Hate to say this, but...

[babbage]

M$ Word: In most cases, it's an elephant that is used to squat a mosquito: you don't need such a monster program to type in a small report/question of a couple of pages or an abstract of the project.

Then again, you could also argue that you don't need a monster program like Emacs to type in a small program/email of a couple of pages, either. [1] And yet some people happily use Emacs all day long, just as some people -- a completely non-intersecting group of people, I suspect -- use Word all day long.

I have a hard time faulting anyone for using the tool they've become proficient with, even if sending a 200 word message as a .DOC attachment balloons the content from a couple of kilobytes to several times that, while generally contributing nothing useful. But whatever, there are ways to deal with that.

The bigger problem isn't that Word is bad, but that promoting lock-in is bad. Now that the .DOC format has been roughly reverse engineered, there are a variety of programs that can open it, but it would generally still be better to use .RTF or .PDF for most of these situations. The important thing isn't to have free software applications for working with these formats -- though, obviously, that matters a lot -- but that the formats exchanged are open and portable, so that nobody can get locked into a dead end, either because a vendor discontinued a product or went out of business, or because a free software project has been abandoned and no one has done anything to the source in years.

+++++

Anyway, in the end, it's not always up to the teachers -- sometimes it's a matter of department or school policy, and circumventing it isn't worth the trouble to them.

I had a project in college where we worked for two semesters on a web crawler, and at the end had to make a big presentation to the public about our work. The requirement was that we had to prepare & submit a PowerPoint slideshow, but I felt then & still do that this was entirely the wrong approach, especially for a web based project, so we did a version of the demonstration as a series of HTML slides on our project's web server, showed our faculty advisors that this looked just as good as the PowerPoint slideshow -- and, as a bonus, allowed us to link directly to our project's web front end directly from the presentation -- and after we were done, the slideshow exactly as given would work in anyone's web browser. We were breaking the project rules, but we demonstrated in advance that there were clear advantages to not going with the proprietary format, and so we were allowed to go it our way.

I think this is a reasonable approach. Rather than just throwing a temper tantrum about having to use The Man's tools, demonstrate that an alternative can be just as good, if not better, and make your intentions clear early enough to win over the faculty (or your boss, or whatever). If you don't convince them, you still have time to turn around and switch to The Man's format, but at least you tried, made your case, and let them know that the alternative could have worked; it'll be a moral victory, if nothing else, and maybe next time around you'll get to do it your way.

+++++

[1] "Emacs: For a Brave GNU Word"

Results matter

[roseblood]

In my line of work no one cares if you used power point, or a pointy stick and little dots of colored ink on a membrane of transparent plastic to make a presentation. The end result is what matters. Often you get the idiots that ask "Hey, this dinner was great! You must use really great pots and pans!" Those in education must learn to make their corsework reflect the needs of the real world. Whatever the best tool is for the job, that's what needs to be used. Be it a Micro$oft product or opensource...who cares, as long as the results are what the customer wants. PERIOD.

This guy (assuming a guy) should be praised for using the tools at hand to get the job done. PERIOD.

App- / language-centricity as a quality metric

[melquiades]

Many opinionated people would say, perhaps prejudicially, that the job of any teaching institution that is not explicitly a vocational/technical training program is to teach principles and not isolated methods; that a good curriculum implements goals which could be accomplished to equal effect with many different tools; that in the rapidly changing landscape of the computer world, such a teaching approach is the only one that's likely to have any serious long-term benefit to students; and that the presence or absence in the curriculum of restrictions to specific applications, OSes, and programming languages is actually good indicator of the quality of a program.

As it happens, I am such a person. Give these bozos hell.

HS vs University

[smoondog]

(potentially offensive blanket statements follow) I found that in High School, doing better work that required independent thought even though it was not assigned was, in almost every case, not understood and often treated critically. In my experience, at the University the opposite was true. The example above is perfect because it illustrates how, in some cases, following the instructions is more important than actually learning. I never followed instructions well either and my high school grades show it.

-Sean

Re:HS vs University

[isn't my name]

I found that in High School, doing better work that required independent thought even though it was not assigned was, in almost every case, not understood and often treated critically.

Absolutely. In a much earlier incarnation, I taught Freshman Comp. at a Pac-10 university. It was easy to tell that what little instruction the majority of students had received on writing in HS was a prescriptive set of rules to follow that led to a standard form. When handed assignments that required critical thought (i.e. pretty much everything they'd be getting in many college courses) that would not be well served by following their formulaic rules, they fell flat on their face.

All too much of the class was spent getting them to unlearn much of the indoctrination they had received.

The exceptions were notable. I actually talked with some of them about this and found that most of the exceptions weren't exceptional because they were brilliant but because their HS did not teach the way most did. These kids were coming in with a leg up on their peers because their HS training had actually encouraged critical thinking and the ability to express it coherently. My guess is that many of those differences smoothed out after a year or so of college, but I'm pretty sure that these kids came out with higher GPAs and ultimately better job prospects because of the quality of their HS instruction.

In case you couldn't guess, I do find the situation described by bccomm deplorable. However, I will also offer some advice that I used to offer my students in freshman comp. Learn how to read your teacher and pick your battles. Bccomm is going to have a much better insight as to whether this a battle that is winnable and what effort that might require. If it isn't worth it move on. More importantly is learning how to read your instructors. If this teacher is the kind of idiot who can't recognize and reward independent thought and effort, then give him the minimal effort to turn in the dross that he thinks is important. When you find the kind of instructor who will challenge you to push your boundaries and actually learn something, go for it. Take advantage of it, and realize that often these types of teachers will grade more leniently for someone who aims high and fails than for someone who underacheives with sufficient work.

And, no, it is not that way in the 'real' world where results are primarily what matters. But, HS should not be aiming for a 'real' world simulation.

Yes, I've noticed.

[Rysc]

I've noticed this, too. For handed-in projects which the stupid/clueless/pressed-for-time instructor must open, I try to do a final-pass export to the requested format. Sometimes I've been able/allowed to use PDFs for papers, but mostly I just export to .doc whenever requested. I'm the computer god, I can be the one who worries about formats.

I never, ever use the requested application if I can help it (Access can import and mysql can export, you know...). But that doesn't mean I'm obnoxious about it.. I only mention what I used to the instructors smart enough to not mark me down for it. If they can stand a little mild advocacy, I do that then.

My advice to you: suck it up, export to powerpoint.

Whatever...

[Otter]

Is anyone else bothered by this?

Yeah, and I wish my neighbors would clean up after their dogs, too.

It's hard to know what to make of your particular issue, since you left out such details as what the subject of the class is. But even giving you the full benefit of the doubt -- there are going to be things in life that are done in a less than optimal way, and your needing to do a presentation in a perfectly appropriate application instead of some new thing you found on Sourceforge is hardly the worst case you'll encounter.

Just be glad they didn't make you do it in Excel.

Re:um, you're taking this class why?

[XO]

I don't have the SLIGHTEST clue how to do ANYTHING with Powerpoint.

Since the usefulness of Powerpoint as a piece of software is completely questionable to me, any effort spent in trying to figure out how to use it would be completely wasted.

Thin Line

[globalar]

A lot of people only know how to use applications. For them, the application's interface is the program - that is what they see, know, and understand. The operation of the machine is summed up in that interaction.

In a school environment, you have to look at the practical picture. What are you trying to achieve by working with these programs? Are you teaching examples of GUI driven tools, the effectiveness of slideshow presentations, how to type, etc? Most of these courses are designed to teach students how to use their computer. This often translates into "how to do task-x with y-program on a computer".

Since Powerpoint is the widespead example and definition of a slideshow app, it seems logical to use Powerpoint and not another program. Forcing one app over another shows a lack of understanding on the institution's part (try not to blame the teacher) if the end result is the same. If students learn how to make slideshow presentations effectively, isn't that the goal? If this is Microsoft Office training, the end result is not entirely the same. Also, there are technicalities with different apps which might make the teacher exert more effort just to accomodate a few students. I am not saying this is bad/good, but I can understand wanting to do things one way, even with sacrifices.

It all depends on what the goals of the course actually are, vs. the specifics of how to reach the goals. Too many institutions and teachers are hung up about the "how" and stress formula or rule compliance to achieve their goals. In essence, they have lost the purpose of education - not conformity, but developement (i.e. improvement). OTOH, some teachers have found the extreme opposite.

Frankly, national governments in countries which have education branches should embrace open source. No reason why OpenOffice cannot be improved a little (a few less bugs, maybe a few more features) by government funds at least. The pay off is software which has no license fees and can be easily extended and ported. The software could be used in other places like libraries and government offices as well.

Education should be stressing alternatives rather than catering to the business world's trends. I understand that getting a job means you need experience in certain applications - courses for specific apps have their place. But in general education, especially requirements, the end result should be learning how to use a computer, not simply how to use $PROGRAM on a $CURRENT_YEAR computer running $OS. Sometimes these two goals are the same, but we should not assume that is always the case.

Re:Post the name of the teacher/school

[Roman_(ajvvs)]

Yes. Invade the teacher's privacy, because they tried to conduct a class in a manner you do not agree with. That will certainly affect how the class is taught, when in a majority of the cases, the teacher follows the rules and doesn't set them.

While I'd prefer an open classroom where everyone has the freedom to perform a task with the tools they can acquire, I also have to sympathize with the teacher, who has to teach and mark in an even-handed manner, without necessarily prejudicing either the technically gifted or the technically challenged.

I'd suggest to the poster to ask the teacher if he (not the teacher) can give a half or whole class session on the software he was using, so that others can know that there is always an alternative software available for those who are willing and able to use it. Planting that seed of knowledge is worth more than any immediate restriction in knowledge.

Re:The closed-mindedness of faculty (my experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, the guy who supports the box decides what goes on it. The Admin knew Windows, so Windows was used. As you said, you left the next year, so his support team would have evaporated at the same time. HE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

When I was part of a group in a startup, it came time to decide what to put on the server. Since I didn't want to support it, and I was the only guy with Linux experience, I kept my mouth shut. So, we ran Windows, and I got the enjoyment of seeing the admin physically kick the server over on a really bad day.

Re:PeePee

[christopherfinke]

...MS product specific (PeePee, MS Worse, Eksell...)...

This, gentlemen, is a fine example of when MS bashing begins to obscure the actual meaning of the post. I sat for a good 15 seconds going, "What the heck is PeePee? And is there an MS Better?" But I suppose that some people think it's cool to juvenilize Microsoft, or M|cr0$ux (depending on your maturity level).

Re:I'm not bothered

[TiggsPanther]

It very much depends on what the course is called, though. Although the "curriculum" states Word & Powerpoint, we don't know whether the course title is that or id it's "Word processing and Presentations". So the OP may not have taken a course that was titles "Microsoft Office", but was then told that that's all he could use.

The centre where I'm currently doing IT Support teaches "Computer Literacy" classes. There's nothing in the actual course titles about Microsoft Products. (Yes, I know some places offer "introduction to Powerpoint", but that's not the type of course that gets taught here.)
But the course material itself not only is based around MS Office, but seems to assume/imply that this way is the only way to use wordprocessors/spreadsheets/etc.

Plus, to make it worse, course materials always seem to be printed using the lastest version of Office on the latest version of Windows. And rather than teaching/examining, say, "Spreadsheets", they're doing it on "Excel from office XP under Windows XP".

We even have the worst-case-extrapolation in some of the exams. In that the expected results as taught by the course are not what you get on our hardware. And we're not in a position to mass-upgrade.
One of the Computer Literacy exams was so XP-centric, that the results gained under Windows 98 simply didnt tally. I ended up going through the mark-scheme with the tutor to get a consistent set of answers that would arise under our classroom setup when following the instructions to the letter.

The course is supposed to be teaching "Computer Literacy", dammit. Yes, I know you have to have a basic direction from which to teach things, but you can't really automatically assume that everyone will run the software that you mandate. Especially if you're a nationwide examinations body, you can not assume that every centre everywhere will have upgraded to the "next big thing" (or even "next best thing") yet.

Tiggs

Re:PeePee

[(trb001)]

I think you're missing the point of the class.

More than likely, the class is to help people with average or below average computer skills to survive in an institution of higher education. For instance...lot's of people came to my school, majored in Computer Science/Engineering, and had never written a line of code in their lives. Many had never, or very seldom, used a word processor or more commonly they hadn't used presentation (PP) or spreadsheet (Excel) apps. Every paper and most of the homework was required to be typed up or presented in an attractive, business like format. How does someone learn to do this when they're from south western Virginia and their high school is still using outdated Apples? Windows dumbfounded these people, let alone Word.

It was a running joke at Tech that if you didn't come into the CS curriculum with some programming experience, you wouldn't make it out. That's because they completely skip introduction to computers ("101 - This is a mouse") and go straight to programming. Great for some of us, horrible for others.

When the majority of your work is expected to come in some format, that format should be taught to you in your first semester. Since not everyone's first semester is the same, a single class presented when first entering college would be a good idea. Make it a 0 credit survey class or something, but still offer it so you aren't failing people for lame reasons like not knowing Word.

--trb