No More PalmOS Instant Messaging?

Why? by DAldredge · 2004-01-13 16:22 · Score: 1

Why would IM on cells be a priority? They want you to use SMS/SMSlike systems that they can charge 0.10 USD per message.

Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 16:28 · Score: 1, Informative

Why would IM on cells be a priority?

1st - it's not a cell, it is palm os.
2nd - we don't all have cells.
3rd - it's hard to send sms through wlan or bluetooth.
Re:Why? by DAldredge · 2004-01-13 16:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Dumbass. Try reading the last line of the post.

" One would think that the growing popularity of PalmOS SmartPhones would make this a priority."

Does that help?
Re:Why? by Curtman · 2004-01-13 21:48 · Score: 1

They want you to use SMS/SMSlike systems that they can charge 0.10 USD per message

Who does? Are you suggesting a global conspriacy amongst AOL, Yahoo, and wireless carriers? The SCO thing isn't cutting it for me anymore, I need this kind of excitement.. Thank you Slashdot
Re:Why? by DAldredge · 2004-01-14 04:10 · Score: 1

I don't know. Could it be the people that run the SMS/SMSlike networks AKA the cell phone companies? Damn, doesn't anyone have ANY thinking skills anymore?
Re:Why? by Oopsz · 2004-01-14 06:02 · Score: 1

My wireless provider includes unlimited AIM/ICQ via sms with certain plans. It's just another feature they can gouge you for...
Re:Why? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-16 14:32 · Score: 0

He's asking why the IM companies would be in league with the cell providers. You haven't answered the question.

/obvious? by cheezus · 2004-01-13 16:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm too lazy to look, but I'd imagine that like every every other platform, there are 3rd party IM clients, perhaps even multi-protocol ones

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Re:/obvious? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 16:31 · Score: 1

I'm sure there is already a Jabber client out there for PalmOS. If there isn't, I'm sure someone could easily port one over. Then, you can access Yahoo!, ICQ, AIM, MSN and others as long as you have access to a Jabber server somewhere. It's pretty damn simple and I don't see what the big deal is.
Re:/obvious? by sycotic · 2004-01-13 17:00 · Score: 1, Informative

There sure are, checkout this google result for instance

I would have thought someone would go that before posting a question to slashdot.. Google says there are "..about 4,680. Search took 1.88 seconds."

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-- If I were a fish, I'd be wet

MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by ObviousGuy · 2004-01-13 16:30 · Score: 0, Insightful

Does anyone else see this as a conspiracy on the part of Microsoft to get IM killed on Palm while building it up on Pocket PCs? I wonder how much money is being passed under the table to get Yahoo and AOL to cancel support for Palm.

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-13 16:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think it's exceedingly unlikely that Microsoft could bribe their biggest competitors in the IM field, especially AOL.
(Well, you asked)

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by RedWolves2 · 2004-01-13 17:12 · Score: 1

Does anyone else see this as a conspiracy

No! Get your head out of your linux ass for a minute and smell the roses.
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-13 21:53 · Score: 1

unlikely that Microsoft could bribe their biggest competitors

Insightful?? Thats the funniest thing I've read here in a while. Can't you mods smell a troll? Microsoft was convicted of doing that not too long ago.
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-13 23:32 · Score: 1

Ok, I'm curious, who did Microsoft bribe?

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-14 00:39 · Score: 1

Some quotes from the FINDINGS OF FACT document from the antitrust trial:

Eric Engstrom, a Microsoft executive with responsibility for multimedia development, wrote to his superiors that one of Microsoft's goals was getting "Intel to stop helping Sun create Java Multimedia APIs, especially ones that run well (ie native implementations) on Windows." Engstrom proposed achieving this goal by offering Intel the following deal: Microsoft would incorporate into the Windows API set any multimedia interfaces that Intel agreed to not help Sun incorporate into the Java class libraries. Engstrom's efforts apparently bore fruit, for he testified at trial that Intel's IAL subsequently stopped helping Sun to develop class libraries that offered cutting-edge multimedia support

Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all but a minute fraction of their machines with an operating system pre-installed

Microsoft explained that if Netscape entered a "special relationship" with Microsoft, the company would treat Netscape as a "preferred ISV." This meant that Netscape would enjoy preferential access to technical information, including APIs.

Simply put, if Navigator exposed APIs that competed for developer attention with the Internet-related APIs Microsoft was planning to build into its platform, Microsoft would regard Netscape as a trespasser on its territory

Other firms in the computer industry have had encounters with Microsoft similar to the experiences of Netscape described above. These interactions demonstrate that it is Microsoft's corporate practice to pressure other firms to halt software development that either shows the potential to weaken the applications barrier to entry or competes directly with Microsoft's most cherished software products

In a subsequent memorandum to senior Microsoft executives, Gates reported that he had tried to convince Grove "to basically not ship NSP" and more generally to reduce the number of people working on software at Intel

Microsoft hastened to assure Intel that if it would stop promoting NSP's interfaces, Microsoft would accelerate its own work to incorporate the functions of the NSP software into Windows, thereby stimulating the development of applications and devices that relied on the new capabilities of Intel's microprocessors

I'll admit some of that doesn't directy imply bribery, but most of it fits quite well with what I and probably most others consider to be a bribe. Especially in the context that the grand parent poster used it. Money doesn't have to be in the form of bills either. I'd say that a monopoly promising to make someone a "preferred ISV" if they stop competing with them could easily be interpreted as a promise of financial gain.
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-14 01:14 · Score: 1

None of these constitute a bribe to a competitor. OEMs are not Microsoft's competitors, they're Microsoft's customers, and I doubt a price-cut offered to someone for doing something a particular way would be considered a bribe by most reasonable people anyway. And Microsoft offered Netscape incentives to do things "the Microsoft way" - using Microsoft APIs - from the beginning, it was Netscape's rejection of these requests that lead Microsoft to produce IE as a serious webbrowser and view Netscape as a competitor.
Remember that ObviousGuy's allegation was that Microsoft was paying money to competitors. This is leaps and bounds ahead of the above, and unambiguously would be bribery.

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-14 01:20 · Score: 1

And Microsoft offered Netscape incentives to do things "the Microsoft way" - using Microsoft APIs

No, Microsoft said stop competing with us by making your browser a platform on Win32, and we'll give you special treatment.
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-14 01:22 · Score: 1

it was Netscape's rejection of these requests that lead Microsoft to produce IE

And its on record that Microsoft stated they intended to develop IE regardless of what Netscape did.

(Sorry, it was an afterthought, not an attempt to fork the conversation)
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-14 02:41 · Score: 1

For what it's worth (it doesn't change my assertion one bit either way) no, that's not what they said.
Microsoft wanted Netscape to use the HTML renderers that were to be built into Windows for the Windows product. Netscape said no, they wanted control over the browser (as there'd be the potential for incompatabilities between the Unix and Mac versions, which used Netscape's own renderer, and a theoretical Windows version which used Microsoft's. This was, of course, exactly what Microsoft wanted.)
To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft never said they wanted Netscape to limit themselves to Win32. That wasn't Microsoft's concern - Microsoft's concern was that they didn't have control over a standard (HTML), not that the most popular implementation of it was available for other platforms.

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-14 02:43 · Score: 1

Hey, don't quote me out of context! The full quote was:
it was Netscape's rejection of these requests that lead Microsoft to produce IE as a serious webbrowser and view Netscape as a competitor.
Nobody said anything about IE not being developed!

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Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-14 06:01 · Score: 1

Along with the HTML renderers, the API which enabled applications to be written as Netscape applications, very similar to the threat from Sun in its Java API. Both offer the developer an abstraction layer which enables those developers to reach multiple platforms by developing applications using a portable framework instead of Microsofts own API, and threatens its monopoly. IE remained inferior to Netscape up until its demise. The idea that this attack on Netscape wasn't related to the threat of a portable API, toolkit or whatever you want to call it that already had a huge customer following is rediculous. Microsoft did what it had to do to make those things go away. Thats how the judge saw it, and thats the way the industry viewed it. To argue that Microsoft did those things to maintain quality standards or anything of the like is laughable.

And I'll maintain that Microsoft viewed Netscape and its API as a competitor for those reasons, and had little to nothing to do with Netscape giving up control of its HTML renderer. The entire episode was a big don't f*^k with us or we'll make life difficult for you and there is very strong evidence that they did. So much so, that judge convicted them of it.

To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft never said they wanted Netscape to limit themselves to Win32

I've never heard anybody make that claim ever. Quite the contrary, Microsoft was quite happy to give up the rest (including Unix, MacOS, and 16bit Windows) if Netscape stayed out of Win32 all together. I don't believe Microsoft ever had any other reason to develop a Mac port of IE other than to cut Netscape's last thread so to speak.

Back to the issue at hand though, I do not mean to argue that Microsoft bribed in the literal sense, just that the things they did had the very same effect as if they had, and the two aren't all that different. The goal was to shut down the competitor, not by making a superior product, or increasing efficiency, but by throwing its weight around and dangling carrots in front of the competition to make them retreat from Microsofts turf.

What I mean to say about the ObviousGuy post is that I read him as saying that maybe Microsoft had a hand in using these very same tactics for its Instant Messenger, and WinCE platform, that it was convicted of doing back then to Netscape and Java. I'm not saying they are, my reply GP post was meant as a I wouldn't put it past them.

If you mean to argue that Microsoft did these things to improve its own products and not to stifle competition, then you're just wrong. The courts said they did, and doing that is the basis of antitrust legislation. I'll quote another source:

Our case against Microsoft, decided last year, provides almost a laundry list of exclusionary conduct. These included: license restrictions on OEMs that thwarted distribution of competing browsers; integrating IE into Windows in a manner that deliberately made it more difficult for consumers to use another browser; agreements with IAPs, ISVs, and Apple that closed off enough significant channels of distribution to keep usage of Navigator below the critical level necessary for it to become a rival software development platform; deceiving developers into believing that MS Java would operate cross-platform; and pressuring Intel not to support cross-platform Java. In each case, court found that the conduct served to maintain Microsoft's market power in operating systems by preventing Netscape from gaining sufficient sales to become a competing platform and that Microsoft failed to show any legitimate business justifications for its actions.
- William J. Kolasky
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by squiggleslash · 2004-01-14 07:42 · Score: 1

Skimming through this it appears we're talking at cross purposes, and this comment is very revealing:
If you mean to argue that Microsoft did these things to improve its own products and not to stifle competition, then you're just wrong.
There is absolutely nothing in what I've written to suggest that. What I challenged was ObviousGuy's assertion that Microsoft would have bribed its competitors. I stand by that, and there's nothing you've written that contradicts this, except for extremely liberal definitions of both "competitors" and "bribed". If we redefine "bribed" to mean "helped" and "competitors" to mean "companies that Microsoft may have seen as a potential threat at the time they were helped, with the help intended to prevent them from becoming actual threats", then yeah, it kind of works. But we don't define either term like that.
I would suggest you read what I wrote literally rather than impuning motives that nobody who knows me would dare suggest. I'm well aware Microsoft is evil. Bribing a competitor isn't something they're known to do. It's not their modus operandi. They don't do it like that.

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You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Re:MSN Messenger and Pocket PCs? by Curtman · 2004-01-14 09:02 · Score: 1
I apologize, I guess I misinterpreted that somehow from:
- Microsoft's concern was that they didn't have control over a standard (HTML), not that the most popular implementation of it was available for other platforms
Seemed like you were stating that the concern wasn't over the threat that Netscape as a platform presented together with Java.
- What I challenged was ObviousGuy's assertion that Microsoft would have bribed its competitors ... If we redefine "bribed" to mean "helped" and "competitors" to mean "companies that Microsoft may have seen as a potential threat at the time they were helped, with the help intended to prevent them from becoming actual threats", then yeah, it kind of works
I'm using bribed in the same liberal sense that I think ObviousGuy used it: as offering a reward to those that would help remove some applications of PalmOS. And competition to be a company that competes with its products (being Yahoo and AOL in the IM market)

What he said was:
- Does anyone else see this as a conspiracy on the part of Microsoft to get IM killed on Palm while building it up on Pocket PCs
From that I think follows that his use of the word bribe meant they offered money to Yahoo and AOL to cancel support for Palm. I don't see a big difference between offering currency to a company, and offerring special status leading to monetary gain. I'm not saying they did, and neither did he, but I believe that was what he meant when he said it.
- Bribing a competitor isn't something they're known to do
I think I see where you're coming from in the sense that Yahoo and AOL compete with Microsoft in the Instant Messenger arena, and that Microsoft wouldn't want to help them because of that. I think the difference in this case is that Yahoo and AOL were in a position to eliminate support for another competitor, PalmOS. And that maybe they offered them some "special status" in reward for doing so, in the same way that they offered that special status to Netscape to stop collaborating with Sun and Java to mitigate the threat that it posed together with Netscape to the Win32 monopoly.
- I'm well aware Microsoft is evil
I'm glad we can all agree on something. :)

Open Source Opertunity by MBCook · 2004-01-13 16:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

Sounds like an opertunity for OSS to me. Why not have someone work on a (I assume scaled down) versoin of GAIM or something like that. Is there something preventing a good OSS client (like some problem with the networking APIs that are exposed) or is this just a lack of work (people have been putting up with official clients so there was no "want" for 3rd party software)?

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Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.

Re:Open Source Opertunity by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 16:32 · Score: 0

You'd also want a centralized server to handle all the requests. Who's going to provide that?
Re:Open Source Opertunity by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 16:38 · Score: 1, Informative

Then you've never heard of Waste distributed, encrypted instant messaging.

There's no technical reason why *any* new internet service could not be built in an entirely cross-platform P2P distributed way - including IM.

Every one would be using it already if the big, stupid networks (AOL, Yahoo, MSN, ICQ) didn't have such a stranglehold on the user share - none of *my* friends are going to switch, so I can't either if I still want to message them.
Re:Open Source Opertunity by wed128 · 2004-01-13 16:42 · Score: 1

I was under the impression that gaim was ported to palmOS...guess i was wrong...do ya think somebody could still use the underlying code and just write a new interface using the Palm libraries?
Re:Open Source Opertunity by sycotic · 2004-01-13 17:03 · Score: 0

I get the impression the opportunity for OSS has already been taken, checkout this google result for instance

I would have thought someone would go that before posting a question to slashdot.. Google says there are "..about 4,680. Search took 1.88 seconds."

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-- If I were a fish, I'd be wet
Re:Open Source Opertunity by Curtman · 2004-01-13 22:04 · Score: 1

a centralized server to handle all the requests

Gaim is a multi-protocol instant messenger client like Trillian incase you didn't realize that. The servers are provided by ICQ, MSN, Yahoo, Jabber, IRC, etc. Gaim is just an actively developed open source client to them all.

There is a flavour of Gaim that runs on Qtopia by the way, so a Palm port wouldn't be too far off the mark I don't think.
Re:Open Source Opertunity by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-14 15:17 · Score: 0

The point is that when those servers finally cut you off, you're going to want another server that will not. The AC that posted above you is correct, and you have missed the point.
Re:Open Source Opertunity by Curtman · 2004-01-14 15:33 · Score: 1
- The point is that when those servers finally cut you off, you're going to want another server that will not
When all the servers drop off.. So when MSN, IRC, Yahoo, Jabber all cease to function, you figure Gaim needs its own server? What are you talking about? The likelyhood of all those services dropping off at once is astronomical. Gaim works by letting you connect to those networks simultaneously. It has nothing to do with a centralized server.
Re:Open Source Opertunity by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-15 02:52 · Score: 0

when those servers finally cut you off

Many have tried.. The same number have failed.

Jabber by Bistronaut · 2004-01-13 16:40 · Score: 2, Interesting

There are Jabber clients for just about everything, and you can set up a server that has gateways to the other networks if you are technically inclined.

Re:Jabber by Evilive · 2004-01-13 18:09 · Score: 3, Informative

Chatopus is a jabber client written specifically for PalmOS.

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-- Two in the pink, one in the sink.

AIM for Palm OS by btornado · 2004-01-13 16:50 · Score: 5, Informative

AIM for Palm OS is still available for free on AOL's UK site. I downloaded it today and installed it. It works, but it did not load my buddy list.

Re:AIM for Palm OS by bomblaster · 2004-01-13 18:17 · Score: 1

then how does it work?
Re:AIM for Palm OS by btornado · 2004-01-13 18:25 · Score: 1

If you know someone's screen name offhand, you can press the Instant Message button or whatever it's called and it'll prompt you for your buddy's screen name and then let you type in your message.

future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-13 17:02 · Score: 4, Interesting

PalmOS is a bitch to code for. People while about Windows, because it isn't some POSIX clone, but they've not done coding for PalmOS. More important, they've not tried to port an app from a real OS like Unix, Windows CE, or Linux to PalmOS. PalmOS is a passable OS when you're dealing with 16 MHz m68k, but on much past that it's a sad excuse for an OS.

I'd be more worried about the current state of instant messaging on PalmOS vis-a-vis the lack of multi-tasking. PalmOS 6 will have some multitasking abilities, but those of us with any current model PalmOS device will be SOL, unless they're willing to buy a new device. I've recieved word for a few Palm employees that there is about a zilch chance of Palm releasing a POS 6 upgrade for *any* of their current models, even the Tungsten T3 or C, the two most powerful models.

I had out a Tungsten C for a (relatively short) while. Why even bother with built-in wifi when it's so crippled by the OS? If I opened up an IRC or IM app, I would be disconnected the second I wanted to do a calculation in EasyCalc or grab out a phone number in Addressbook. Then I'd have to go through the whole routine of reconnecting. Yay! Each time I would leave the Web Browser to get a URL out of a Memo or an email, I would lose the page loaded and have to re-negotiate the wifi-connection, reload the page (or multiple tabs if running NetFront), basically starting over again.

I took the Tungsten C back after a couple weeks. I have a Palm m130 on loan which I like more. It is a lot less powerful and has a smaller and crappier screen compared to the TC, but at least so much isn't going to such blatant waste. Perhaps it is better to use the Palm for what it does decently, and then use my Windows CE device (Sigmarion III- 800x480 screen, touch-typable screen) for the real work of doing development, browsing the web, irc, email via ssh, etc etc.

Anyone who says that PDAs don't need multitasking have never used their PDA for anything but the simplest of tasks. The device for which the term PDA was invented- the original Apple Newton- had multitasking before the first Palm Pilot was concieved, and has been capable of doing more than almost any PalmOS model. Perhaps Palm should have thought of a new acronym to call their device, a PDA lite? Expensive Electronic Organizer?

No, there isn't a port of GAIM to PalmOS. But there are a bunch of other IM clients for PalmOS. This story is pretty stupid, like a lot of so-called tech news story posted at various sites, born of ignorance and perpetuated by folks too lazy to do any research, and analyzed by folks who know nothing about the topic.

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Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad

Re:future of palm os... by Sancho · 2004-01-13 19:20 · Score: 1

I'm shocked that the Palm OS (or rather, its applications) don't support multitasking with the network application better than this. It seems almost useless if I can't switch between e-mail and my web browser without essentially losing the connection. Do you know if the same problem occurs when using the device with, say, a cell phone to connect to the internet? Would you actually have to hang up and re-dial in order to switch between email, web, ssh, etc? Absurd.

If all that you've said is true, this suddenly throws Pocket PCs a bone, in my opinion. I've been considering a new PDA for some time, and I've always had a peculiar affinity to Palm devices. To me, the interface is intuitive, and it works quite well in my opinion. But I'm at the point where I'd want better networking support than this. I'd always shied away from the thought of buying a Pocket PC because the battery life tended to be much shorter than Palms, but the newer offerings (Tungsten 3) and presumably future offerings seem to have almost the same battery life as the PPCs I'd so detested. If I'm going to have to wait for PalmOS6 to get something that networks well, and that device is going to have a battery life and other features similar to that of a PPC, I'm going with the one that's been around the block longer. We may not like Microsoft most of the time, but they've apparently been doing multitasking/networking longer than Palm has, and they've hopefully learned how to do it better.

It's sad really, but I guess one of the reasons Pocket PCs are better in this area is because Microsoft was coming from the world of Desktop machines and trying to cram that OS into the smaller package. The end result is that, while bloated, it actually will probably end up working better than PalmOS6, which evolved from code written from scratch for these devices.
Re:future of palm os... by seann · 2004-01-13 19:53 · Score: 2, Funny

I think Palm OS's kerenel forbids multitasking because of licensing issues.

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Re:future of palm os... by juni2010 · 2004-01-13 20:24 · Score: 1

Yup, multitasking is important. I'm writing this on my HP2210 (Windows Mobile2003) while listening to mp3s and with msn messenger running in the background. But perhaps the next version of PalmOS will have that feature? So far it seems Palm has a lot of catching up to do still.
Re:future of palm os... by Curtman · 2004-01-13 22:17 · Score: 1

PDA lite? Expensive Electronic Organizer?

Glorified calculator is my preferred term.
Re:future of palm os... by bjb · 2004-01-14 02:01 · Score: 1

Actually, Palm OS 5.x DOES support some level of multitasking. While I can't claim to know any of the techincal details of how it works or how it is accomplished, you can observe it in action when you run Real Player (MP3 player) and then switch to any other application; the MP3 still plays.
I have been learning how to program the Palm OS for the last few weeks now (O'Reilly book V2 that covers v4.0), and I would imagine that an application would somehow register a callback that would be activated on a certain frequency. Again, I could be wrong, and yes, this isn't true multitasking, but it does allow for other apps to work in the background.

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Re:future of palm os... by biglig2 · 2004-01-14 02:24 · Score: 1

No no, it's not anything like that bad.

Connections to the net (via dial-up or WiFi) stay up when you switch between applications. They do time out quickly by default (to save battery power), but that is adjustable.

PalmsOS has not had real multitasking before because wasn't really any good reason to have it.

I mean, how many apps do you actually need to run in the background on a PDA while you;re doing something else? MP3 player? (Me, I'd sooner have my iPod in my other pocket) IM client? Not a big list... and as pointed out you can sort-of do multitasking because Palms are always running two things at once - the OS and the app - so if you need it badly enough you can hook your background task into the OS so it keeps running all the time.

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~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Re:future of palm os... by cgenman · 2004-01-14 04:10 · Score: 1

This story is pretty stupid, like a lot of so-called tech news story posted at various sites, born of ignorance and perpetuated by folks too lazy to do any research, and analyzed by folks who know nothing about the topic.

Don't forget commented upon by extremely grumpy folks who feel so insulted by the wasted 5 seconds of their life spent skimming the summary of the story that they have to spend 30 minutes writing a response complaining about a lack of free upgrades and enumerating known problems with known workarounds.

I'm glad you like your Sigmarion III... It looks like a nice device. But at 4 times the size of an average palm pilot, I have to wonder why you didn't just get a Sony Picturebook. The Newton, while an interface standard that all other devices should aspire to, was also frickin huge.

I like the clarity of purpose of the palm pilot. True, it was conceived in a non-networked environment, but the functionality that they provided in a 68000 was both minimalist and astonishing. It wasn't conceived as a Laptop Lite, as you seem to want, but as an Organizer Plus. Keep appointments, backup passwords, organize your thoughts, plan strategies. SSH? "Real development work?" no, the 100 dollar Palm Pilot doesn't do as much as the 1,000 dollar Newton with it's powerful 20 MHZ arm processor and it's eventual TCP/IP stack. But that's not what it was envisioned for. Look at the internals sometime and realize just how much they have accomplished with so little.

That's not to say that I'm rushing out to buy a palm-based smart phone before OS6 ships, but know your tools before you complain that your hammer is defective because it doesn't drive your screws in.

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The ______ Agenda
Re:future of palm os... by iantri · 2004-01-14 04:37 · Score: 1

Coincidentally (or perhaps not) PalmOS is so unbelievably easy to use that anyone can pick the device up and go.
Do we really NEED multitasking and fast processors in a device that you are going to pick up, fiddle with for 30 seconds (to say, look up an address or check a detail)?
Additionally, the slow processor and simplicity brings another benefit -- my Palm m105 (sorry, I'm a poor student) gets ~2 weeks battey life on a pair of alkaline AAA batteries.
Re:future of palm os... by MountainLogic · 2004-01-14 04:42 · Score: 2, Informative

I've been working woth the Palm OS for several year and I very much enjoy working with it. Metrowerks has a professional quality C/C++ environment for it and Palm has released a free (as in beer )simulator that allows for source level debugging. There are several frameworks and other tools that make the Palm OS specific issues a snap. It really is a joy to work wehere thing just work - No driver issues, no incompatabilities, etc. Palm programming does require a very different mindset from the desktop. The Palm OS is very lean, but that is how it should be. Bloated palms are an ugly thing indeed.
Re:future of palm os... by VisorGuy · 2004-01-14 04:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

I use a Handspring Visor Prism with the VisorPhone module. It's running PalmOS 3.5 and I can and do maintain a GSM network connection when switching between apps. And when I switch back to my browser from another app, the last page I was looking at is still there and I don't have to reload.

The only application I can think of where I lose a connection is upIRC.
I asked the developer, Brian Smith, about this and he said that he couldn't keep it connected because of the nature of IRC networks. They apparently ping the clients to ensure that they are still connected and if the application is not active, it can't respond to the pings.

I think the same is true of the IM networks.

Since receiving Brian's response I have wondered if he could patch a trap in the OS and basically hook some tiny responder into the OS so that it could stay connected.

The same can and has been done for the IM apps. It's called VeriChat.

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Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 05:19 · Score: 2, Informative

Yes, PalmOS 5.2.x allows a very limited form of multitasking. As far as I know, it is limited to MP3 or other audio players. On these versions of PalmOS, there are two threads allowed- foreground and background. I don't know of any apps other than a couple audio players that use this capability, though I imagine a couple other apps use it.

Sony added similar very limited multitasking to their versions of PalmOS, somewhere in the 4 series. I think they use the POS 5 API now, though.

For it to be used to allow networking apps not to suck, PalmsSource or the licensee would have to rewrite the networking system to use it.

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Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by Dr.+Manhattan · 2004-01-14 05:42 · Score: 1

I've been working woth the Palm OS for several year and I very much enjoy working with it.
Yes, compared to the Windows API the PalmOS API is much more orthogonal and simpler to use. Yes, you need to pay more attention to resource usage and such. But I compared what could be squeezed into a friend's Viewsonic V37 (a recent, capacious PocketPC) with my old Palm IIIxe. He was amazed at how small the apps were, and since PalmOS is execute-in-place, it's even better. (The app doesn't need to be copied from 'storage' to 'active' memory.)
For big, bloated things, I have a dual-Athlon desktop. For portability, well, PalmOS is the way to go. I can't wait until my Handera 330 comes later this week... weeks on a single set of batteries, but CF and SD slots, hi-res screen, etc.

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PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 05:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

You may rather have your iPod in your pocket, but most folks don't want to carry around a backpack full of devices. My PDA is already in my pocket- if I have a large storage card and a capable CPU, why shouldn't I listen to MP3s?

I do a lot more multitasking than just the MP3 player and IM client. On PalmOS, those were what I ran into more often, but on WindowsCE, NewtonOS or Linux, three real OSes that run on PDAs, I do a lot more multitasking.

No, I don't *need* that. But I don't need a PDA, either. Nor do I need a computer. Nor does your computer need multitasking. Why not just use DOS?

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Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 06:02 · Score: 1

I never said that any of the devices I have used were perfect. For me, I'd rather have something functional than something simply small. What good does something small do me if it doesn't solve the problems I throw at it? Not much. I'd rather carry around something larger that can do what I need than something less function, although smaller.

The "known workarounds" you speak of are just to switch to a non-PalmOS machine or wait until PalmOS 6. Fine.

The Palm Pilot never cost $100, unless you're talking refurb; nor did a Newton cost $1000. That isn't to say the Newtons didn't cost a lot, but they were more of a laptop replacement than an expensive dayrunner.

I know a lot can be done with little hardwares. The older Newtons managed to do what current PalmOS models do on pretty small hardware- 20 MHz ARM 610 and 2.5 MB of RAM. Not that much faster than a 16 MHz DragonBall.

I'm glad you like your Palm Pro. No one said you had to get something more powerful or better- if it solves your problems, stick with it. Some of us want and use more. I don't want to have to carry around a laptop, so I'm very glad that enough of us want powerful PDAs, machines that do most of what a laptop would.

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Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 06:05 · Score: 1

Do you need something electronic for something as simple as keeping track of addresses?

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Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 06:07 · Score: 1

It's all in how you develop it. I seen a number of PocketPC apps that are tiny, similarily tiny as a PalmOS app. But it's not going to be if you statically link a bunch of MFC controls. If you want small, you can write in C against a stripped down API on WinCE just like you can on PalmOS.

Execute-in-place is a cool thing, something that Linux and WinCE really can't do with the way they operate. But not all that important when even PalmOS devices come with 32, 64 and 128 MB of RAM...

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by Polo · 2004-01-14 06:07 · Score: 1

Mod parent up, especially for the Zen of Palm document reference...
Re:future of palm os... by KarmaPolice · 2004-01-14 09:25 · Score: 1

The Mp3 player in the Motorola A920 smartphone works by using a dedicated DSP (Digital Signal Processor). The DSP is 200 MHz while the main processor is 154 MHz. It's not multitasking but it does allow for streaming while doing other stuff.

Maybe the Palm has something like that. For what I know, mp3 decoding is a bad idea to do with a general purpose CPU, especially in battery operated devices.
Re:future of palm os... by iantri · 2004-01-15 01:22 · Score: 1

I don't actually use it for that..
Most of the time, maybe the occasional game of Solitare while I'm waiting for a bus and things like that.
If I wanted to only keep address I would just get a paper addressbook, I think..
Re:future of palm os... by RevAaron · 2004-01-15 07:08 · Score: 1

Then why not just get one of those dedicated LCD Solitaire machine? Or a used- but small- GameBoy Color?

Illustrates a point I've tried to make over and over again, but always lost on folks that seem to think they are the only ones in the world- different strokes for different folks. Just to play the "occasional" game of Solitaire, paying $200-500 for a fancy PDA when I could buy an original GameBoy for $10 (or a GBC for a little more) and Solitaire and others, or $15 on an card-game-only electronic handheld game.

Why shouldn't a $500 organizer/PDA have multitasking?

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Re:future of palm os... by Jonboy+X · 2004-01-15 20:35 · Score: 2, Funny

Wow, is there a moderation for "bitchy, bitter and resentful"? Is it a -1 or a +1?

--

"In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user. You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total.loser." -Weird Al

You can use Yahoo!, ICQ, MSN & AOL chat by $exyNerdie · 2004-01-13 17:16 · Score: 3, Informative

Well, from what I know, VeriChat(TM) Unified Instant Messaging (IM) application for SmartPhones and other connected Palm devices such as the Tungsten C works very well.

It's key features (copied and pasted from the website) are:

- Unified messaging support for Yahoo!, ICQ, AOL Instant Messenger & MSN Instant Messenger
- Works with all PalmOS based SmartPhones (that have a data connection - circuit-switch data or high-speed data) including the Treo 180, Treo 270, Treo 300, Samsung I330, Kyocera 7135, Tungsten W, Samsung I500, VisorPhone, etc.
- Native support for the Palm Tungsten C and the Sony NX/NZ series with a WiFi card.
- Will also work with your Palm PDA if it has any type of Internet connection and a paging address. You can use a Wireless phone via IR (infra-red) or BlueTooth for the PDA's internet connectivity, i.e., a Tungsten-T or a Treo 90 coupled via blue-tooth with a Ericsson T68. You can also use your Palm coupled to a CDPD modem and your alphanumeric pager.
- Familiar Graphical icons for each protocol
Chat simultaneously with your buddies using one or any combination of IM protocols
- "Always On" on the messaging networks: Your buddies will see you as online even when you are not in the VeriChat(TM) application
- Specially customized for the Treo's Keyboard and Jog dial; you can avoid using the stylus altogether if you wish to
- Easy setup; the installation wizard will guide you through the configuration
- Many features especially for a mobile device: Buddy Pounce, Auto-reply messages, Custom Status messages and Pre-defined messages.

There is another application called Chatter that works on Palm OS 5 based Treo 600 called Chatter. It's website is here.

Re:You can use Yahoo!, ICQ, MSN & AOL chat by neglige · 2004-01-13 20:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

It sure looks nice, but... the price is, according to the page, $24.95 for the first year and then $19.95(!) for each following year. Not cheap. Furthermore, in the "Purchase/Service Agreement" it is clearly stated that some protocols may not be functional for some time or even for ever. Refunds are not mentioned, so if your favourite protocol is broken you are out of luck.

And the author is not affiliated with Yahoo/AOL/Microsoft. So anytime protocol changes occur, the client won't work. Just like any other free client. Or like the official clients, only that here is a (slight?) chance they will be working again. Maybe. Someday.

Disclaimer: unfortunately I don't have a Palm that can receive SMS (SMS as a bearer... smart, but possibly expensive), so actually all protocols may be working currently.

--
My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.

There's no future in it, and I'll tell you why. by Mordant · 2004-01-13 17:33 · Score: 0, Troll

It's because you're all so damned slow trying to scribble your silly Graffiti or whatever the hell it is that you give the Instant part of Instant Messaging a bad name, and so we call got tired of that crap and begged all the IM networks to disable your silly little Palm Gameboy access so that you might save up enough to buy an actual computer with an actual keyboard, and a copy of Mavis Beacon. ;>

Re:There's no future in it, and I'll tell you why. by juni2010 · 2004-01-13 20:45 · Score: 1

Riight, at least for PocketPCs there are many good text input methods (this being my favorite: http://www.decuma.com/pages/products/products.html ) and instead of buying a new computer...why not buy a infrared (or soon to arrive bluetooth) keyboard for your handheld. ;)
Re:There's no future in it, and I'll tell you why. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 22:30 · Score: 0

I once worked with a guy who loved his goofy Palm PDA. He had some roll up keyboard on his. Oh how I laughed as he hit each key 7 times each on average to make it work. He'd try to "beam" me things all the time. He'd lean this way and that.. "Did you get it?" "Can you lean to the left, maybe it can't see the port" he'd say. Never been able to take them seriously since.

Re:Open Source Opportunity by the_truk_stop · 2004-01-13 17:37 · Score: 3, Informative

why not have someone work on a ... version of Gaim

The Gaim developers have done a fantastic job of splitting the Gaim core from the user interface, which has already resulted in a PDA client for the QTopia environment called QPE-Gaim. But porting Gaim to PalmOS I assume is a much bigger task.

Jabber, and its derivatives. by Jorkapp · 2004-01-13 17:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

A quick google search for "open source palmos instant messenger" comes up with - you guessed it - Jabber. Unfortunately, Jabber has not officially developed a PalmOS client, so here's a few promising 3rd party clients based on Jabber.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/jabberpalm/

The Jabber Palm project. By the looks of it, it's a solid client, and only a few notable bugs to work out.

-

http://www.chatopus.com/

Chatopus. A Jabber based client for PalmOS. Offers a good amount of features and support. Last version release was 01/12/04, so those -changes- in the networks shouldn't be a problem.

--
Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.

Re:Jabber, and its derivatives. by OneBarG · 2004-01-13 18:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Unfortunately, Jabber has not officially developed a PalmOS client
Remember, Jabber isn't just 1 company. No client is "more official" because Jabber, Inc. puts it out.

--
I'm starting to think this isn't the best place to promote my Anti-Sig Campaign.
Re:Jabber, and its derivatives. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 22:40 · Score: 0

Why don't you sprinkle a little html on those posts?

Jabberpalm
Chatopus

That sig might look better in an <ecode> tag too, and help out the non-visual browsers. <br> for line breaks if thats why you're using plain text.. Just a suggestion.

main() { printf("Jorkapp is a programmer"); main(); }

Jabber, of course by Yenya · 2004-01-13 17:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

I use Jabber client on PalmOS without problems. There are at least two clients, one of which is open source. The specification of the protocol is open, and the system is distributed. Why use AIM or ICQ, when there is Jabber? :-)

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-Yenya
--
While Linux is larger than Emacs, at least Linux has the excuse that it has to be. --Linus

libyahoo2 is currently broken as well by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 18:04 · Score: 1, Informative

I use the client freehoo, and as you can see, it's currently not working because Yahoo changed the protocol. Now we get to scramble about trying to fix it.

I happen to have made the mistake of letting several of my clients get in the habit of being able to contact me via Yahoo IM. I won't be doing that again. When freehoo quite working, I tried a number of other clients, and then had to go to the binary-only client Yahoo distributes; this required a newer libc6 and I ended up apt-get upgrading half the packages on my main machine and now some of my tools won't compile anymore.

I need to find a command line only client like freehoo but for Jabber, or else start running my own Zephyr server again. My business has picked up enough that I don't need to bend to my clients choice of communication -- a potentially pleasant evening blown scrambling about fixing shit is a high price to pay for a "free" service.

You want something done right, do it yourself. I can't let that kind of stuff be dependent on Yahoo. This reminds me of when they announced they would start charging for pop access to the email; they said they would start charging by a certain time, so I started looking around at alternatives, and then pop suddenly quit working well before the announced date. I don't need these kind of people fucking up my life.

Re:libyahoo2 is currently broken as well by Curtman · 2004-01-13 22:47 · Score: 1

Gaim has a well working implementation of Yahoo authorization. There was yet another one claiming to be complete posted to the mailing list this week, that I don't think got accepted. Why not just port one rather than reinvent the wheel?

Tungsten T maintains the connection between apps by Eustace+Tilley · 2004-01-13 19:53 · Score: 3, Informative

The Tungsten T lets you set the idle timeout on a network connection to 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, or never. You decide the trade off between battery time and reconnection hassle. If you set it to "never," you can switch between WebPro, VersaMail, WordSmith, PhotoBase, and so forth without having to re-login. If you set it to "1 minute," you can still switch, but you mustn't dillydally. Perhaps the Tungsten C lacks that preference setting, or perhaps the original poster never noticed.

The advantages to using a Tungsten T + cellphone combination over a single device like a Tungsten C include:

it works whereever your cellphone can find GPRS, not just in WiFi HotSpots
your cellphone battery handles the radio between you and the station (distant), your PDA battery handles the radio between your PDA and your cellphone (close)

IRC, yours truly by neglige · 2004-01-13 20:25 · Score: 1

Just for the record, there are IRC clients for PalmOS. There doesn't seem to be "talk", though, but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. So if anyone can fill this void... ;)

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My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.

On Palm OS Smartphones? Why? by TechnoPops · 2004-01-13 21:10 · Score: 1

One would think that the growing popularity of PalmOS SmartPhones would make this a priority.

What you have to keep in mind here is the kind of people who mostly use smartphones: Business users. Do these people need always-available e-mail? Yes. Do they need always-available Web? Sure, comes in handy now and again. Do they need always-available AIM/ICQ to chat with their buddies? Err... no.

So, what you have to ask yourself is: Who would really love the idea of IM-ing their friends while they're out? Well, the answer to that is casual users--the kind that can't afford, nor see the need for, a smartphone. So, if you were a cell phone manufacturer, it'd be a smart move to have a version of AIM ported to your phone's proprietary OS and have the client pre-installed. And having just switched cell phone carriers, I've noticed this is exactly what manufacturers are doing on their consumer-level phones. Nokia has had AIM pre-loaded on their consumer-levels for a while (ever since the 3390 and now up to the ever-popular 3650), as do Samsung's R225, E105, and X105; and Motorola's C332, T722i, and their brand-spanking new V300.

So, really, what it all comes down to is where the market is. And if I had to harbor a guess, I'd say AOL is making tons more money licensing their AIM client to Nokia than it is hawking its $20 Palm OS client.

--
"Each time you smile, it'll only last awhile. Life may be scary, but it's only temporary."

Re: karmawhoring by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-13 22:09 · Score: 0

I don't care. Someone's not trashing M$ on Slashdot?? Its not right.

Treo - SMS - AIM? by BRTB · 2004-01-14 03:53 · Score: 1

Actually, I was just looking into Palm messaging clients last night...

Through T-Mobile you can log into AIM and send/receive messages over SMS. Now I haven't been able to verify this, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the built-in AIM clients on Nokia 3390/Samsumg R225m/etc use the same mechanism. Has anybody seen a PalmOS program (possibly working on a Treo 180? =] ) that'll take advantage of this, instead of the GPRS link?

[stupid no-credit, can't get GPRS from ANYBODY for a while]

Re:Treo - SMS - AIM? by einstein · 2004-01-15 04:16 · Score: 1

I think you can IM any AT&T 10 digit phone number d it will send them an SMS that can be replied to via an SMS... I don't think that works for T-mobile ( haven't tested recently ).

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I post links to stuff here

Re:Tungsten T maintains the connection between app by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 05:55 · Score: 1

I don't remember such a setting. If I left the Web Browser app to grab a URL from Memo, and went back, I'd have to reconnect. No matter if I was out of the Browser for 10 seconds or 10 minutes.

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad

Re:Tungsten T maintains the connection between app by Eustace+Tilley · 2004-01-14 06:51 · Score: 1

Palm Web Pro, under Options | Preferences | General, has 'Disconnect on exit.' I am just guessing, of course, but I guess you had that option enabled.

Verichat works just fine, for all 4 IM services. by raygundan · 2004-01-14 07:28 · Score: 1

I'm surprised I didn't see this mentioned above-- maybe I just overlooked it.

Anyway, although the "official" clients have been dead or dying for some time, verichat is alive and ticking. It's a multi-IM client, similar to Trillian. You do have to pay for it, but it was something like $30, so no big deal. Works with MSN, Yahoo, ICQ, AIM, and IRC, and the fee includes access to verichat's proxy server, which keeps you logged-in, online, and stores messages for you when your phone goes out of service.

If you're in the app, it's just like using an IM client, if the app is closed (because PalmOS is not really big on multitasking) IMs come in as SMS messages from the proxy server, and the verichat app captures them. I use it daily on my Treo 600.

Re:Tungsten T maintains the connection between app by RevAaron · 2004-01-14 07:51 · Score: 1

A good guess. I had disconnect on exit disabled, because I was doing/planning on doing a lot network-requiring stuff.

I ran into some other weirdness with wifi on the Tungsten C, though. After having it for less than a day, and having not installed even *one* hack or app, wifi stopped working. Rather, opening up web browser (or hotsync) or going to config/activate the wifi network would request a wifi login, and lock the machine up. I would have to reboot. This of course made wifi impossible to use, and the machine in general a pain, because a wifi connection was attempted whenever I may have accidentally opened up some apps or prefs, which then locked the machine up. ugh. Doing a hard reset and starting over again from scratch fixed it, though I was always very worried it would come back again. Didn't keep it long enough to find out.

--

Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad

Open source failure, nothing else by dspyder · 2004-01-14 08:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

There's plenty of open IM clients available for all number of platforms. Hell, there's gotta be like three in the top 25 list over at sourceforge.

Nobody has taken their own time to port one over to the Palm platform. Development on the Palm is pretty easy compared to a lot of platforms, I'm really surprised nobody has done it just for the sake of having it done. Why expect a commercial company to provide us something when we can build it ourselves? Aren't we Open Source, power-to-the-people, scree evil corporations that force feed us their closed clients?

I'm happily using Agile Messenger on my SymbianOS cellphone. Beats the hell out of 10 cent per SMS messages. I would even pay for the software if they weren't giving it out for free! As soon as they come out with a WiFi and GPRS Palm for under a million dollars, and somebody matches that with a reasonable cell data plan, then I'll switch back.

--D

Score: +1 Troll, but absolutely correct

Re:Tungsten T maintains the connection between app by Eustace+Tilley · 2004-01-14 23:49 · Score: 1

I wonder if the difference is

{Tungsten T + bluetooth cell} is a multiprocessor implementation
GPRS vs WiFi

The cellphone creates and persists the connection, the Tungsten T handles user input, display, clipboards, and application shuffling. This reduces the number of conflicting interrupts either must cope with.

It is also plausible that GPRS connections are assumed to come and go as the users roll through a tunnels or burrow into parking structures where WiFi clients are assumed to stay put. This could influence dropped-connection results as well.

Re:Open Source Opportunity by salimma · 2004-01-16 02:58 · Score: 1

But porting Gaim to PalmOS I assume is a much bigger task.

Maybe they're waiting for Palm OS 6 to be generally available. It's a true preemptive multitasking OS (finally) and done by a lot of the original Be developers.

Pity Palm/Handspring just released the Treo 600. An updated phone+PDA with Bluetooth running OS 6 and Gaim would be the ultimate communication tool.

--
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut

Java by La+Camiseta · 2004-01-16 13:09 · Score: 1

Just get a Java VM on there and use their Java clients. Easy as that.

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No More PalmOS Instant Messaging?

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