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No More PalmOS Instant Messaging?
cloudscout asks: "Palm users are slowly being cut off from Instant Messaging networks. In July of 2002, changes to the Yahoo! Messenger network effectively disabled the service's PalmOS client and an updated version was never released. Now the same fate has befallen ICQ users. Changes to the ICQ network have disabled the PalmOS client. This happened in September and since then, ICQ has responded to all bug reports with an irrelevant form letter. This leaves Palm users with AIM whose official client is a couple of years old, buggy and costs $20. Is there a future for Instant Messaging on Palm? One would think that the growing popularity of PalmOS SmartPhones would make this a priority."
Why would IM on cells be a priority? They want you to use SMS/SMSlike systems that they can charge 0.10 USD per message.
I'm too lazy to look, but I'd imagine that like every every other platform, there are 3rd party IM clients, perhaps even multi-protocol ones
/bin/fortune | slashdotsig.sh
Sounds like an opertunity for OSS to me. Why not have someone work on a (I assume scaled down) versoin of GAIM or something like that. Is there something preventing a good OSS client (like some problem with the networking APIs that are exposed) or is this just a lack of work (people have been putting up with official clients so there was no "want" for 3rd party software)?
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
There are Jabber clients for just about everything, and you can set up a server that has gateways to the other networks if you are technically inclined.
AIM for Palm OS is still available for free on AOL's UK site. I downloaded it today and installed it. It works, but it did not load my buddy list.
(Well, you asked)
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
PalmOS is a bitch to code for. People while about Windows, because it isn't some POSIX clone, but they've not done coding for PalmOS. More important, they've not tried to port an app from a real OS like Unix, Windows CE, or Linux to PalmOS. PalmOS is a passable OS when you're dealing with 16 MHz m68k, but on much past that it's a sad excuse for an OS.
I'd be more worried about the current state of instant messaging on PalmOS vis-a-vis the lack of multi-tasking. PalmOS 6 will have some multitasking abilities, but those of us with any current model PalmOS device will be SOL, unless they're willing to buy a new device. I've recieved word for a few Palm employees that there is about a zilch chance of Palm releasing a POS 6 upgrade for *any* of their current models, even the Tungsten T3 or C, the two most powerful models.
I had out a Tungsten C for a (relatively short) while. Why even bother with built-in wifi when it's so crippled by the OS? If I opened up an IRC or IM app, I would be disconnected the second I wanted to do a calculation in EasyCalc or grab out a phone number in Addressbook. Then I'd have to go through the whole routine of reconnecting. Yay! Each time I would leave the Web Browser to get a URL out of a Memo or an email, I would lose the page loaded and have to re-negotiate the wifi-connection, reload the page (or multiple tabs if running NetFront), basically starting over again.
I took the Tungsten C back after a couple weeks. I have a Palm m130 on loan which I like more. It is a lot less powerful and has a smaller and crappier screen compared to the TC, but at least so much isn't going to such blatant waste. Perhaps it is better to use the Palm for what it does decently, and then use my Windows CE device (Sigmarion III- 800x480 screen, touch-typable screen) for the real work of doing development, browsing the web, irc, email via ssh, etc etc.
Anyone who says that PDAs don't need multitasking have never used their PDA for anything but the simplest of tasks. The device for which the term PDA was invented- the original Apple Newton- had multitasking before the first Palm Pilot was concieved, and has been capable of doing more than almost any PalmOS model. Perhaps Palm should have thought of a new acronym to call their device, a PDA lite? Expensive Electronic Organizer?
No, there isn't a port of GAIM to PalmOS. But there are a bunch of other IM clients for PalmOS. This story is pretty stupid, like a lot of so-called tech news story posted at various sites, born of ignorance and perpetuated by folks too lazy to do any research, and analyzed by folks who know nothing about the topic.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Does anyone else see this as a conspiracy
No! Get your head out of your linux ass for a minute and smell the roses.
Well, from what I know, VeriChat(TM) Unified Instant Messaging (IM) application for SmartPhones and other connected Palm devices such as the Tungsten C works very well.
It's key features (copied and pasted from the website) are:
- Unified messaging support for Yahoo!, ICQ, AOL Instant Messenger & MSN Instant Messenger
- Works with all PalmOS based SmartPhones (that have a data connection - circuit-switch data or high-speed data) including the Treo 180, Treo 270, Treo 300, Samsung I330, Kyocera 7135, Tungsten W, Samsung I500, VisorPhone, etc.
- Native support for the Palm Tungsten C and the Sony NX/NZ series with a WiFi card.
- Will also work with your Palm PDA if it has any type of Internet connection and a paging address. You can use a Wireless phone via IR (infra-red) or BlueTooth for the PDA's internet connectivity, i.e., a Tungsten-T or a Treo 90 coupled via blue-tooth with a Ericsson T68. You can also use your Palm coupled to a CDPD modem and your alphanumeric pager.
- Familiar Graphical icons for each protocol
Chat simultaneously with your buddies using one or any combination of IM protocols
- "Always On" on the messaging networks: Your buddies will see you as online even when you are not in the VeriChat(TM) application
- Specially customized for the Treo's Keyboard and Jog dial; you can avoid using the stylus altogether if you wish to
- Easy setup; the installation wizard will guide you through the configuration
- Many features especially for a mobile device: Buddy Pounce, Auto-reply messages, Custom Status messages and Pre-defined messages.
There is another application called Chatter that works on Palm OS 5 based Treo 600 called Chatter. It's website is here.
The Gaim developers have done a fantastic job of splitting the Gaim core from the user interface, which has already resulted in a PDA client for the QTopia environment called QPE-Gaim. But porting Gaim to PalmOS I assume is a much bigger task.
A quick google search for "open source palmos instant messenger" comes up with - you guessed it - Jabber. Unfortunately, Jabber has not officially developed a PalmOS client, so here's a few promising 3rd party clients based on Jabber.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jabberpalm/
The Jabber Palm project. By the looks of it, it's a solid client, and only a few notable bugs to work out.
-
http://www.chatopus.com/
Chatopus. A Jabber based client for PalmOS. Offers a good amount of features and support. Last version release was 01/12/04, so those -changes- in the networks shouldn't be a problem.
Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.
I use Jabber client on PalmOS without problems. There are at least two clients, one of which is open source. The specification of the protocol is open, and the system is distributed. Why use AIM or ICQ, when there is Jabber? :-)
-Yenya
--
While Linux is larger than Emacs, at least Linux has the excuse that it has to be. --Linus
I happen to have made the mistake of letting several of my clients get in the habit of being able to contact me via Yahoo IM. I won't be doing that again. When freehoo quite working, I tried a number of other clients, and then had to go to the binary-only client Yahoo distributes; this required a newer libc6 and I ended up apt-get upgrading half the packages on my main machine and now some of my tools won't compile anymore.
I need to find a command line only client like freehoo but for Jabber, or else start running my own Zephyr server again. My business has picked up enough that I don't need to bend to my clients choice of communication -- a potentially pleasant evening blown scrambling about fixing shit is a high price to pay for a "free" service.
You want something done right, do it yourself. I can't let that kind of stuff be dependent on Yahoo. This reminds me of when they announced they would start charging for pop access to the email; they said they would start charging by a certain time, so I started looking around at alternatives, and then pop suddenly quit working well before the announced date. I don't need these kind of people fucking up my life.
The advantages to using a Tungsten T + cellphone combination over a single device like a Tungsten C include:
Just for the record, there are IRC clients for PalmOS. There doesn't seem to be "talk", though, but maybe I wasn't looking hard enough. So if anyone can fill this void... ;)
My cats ate my karma. They also wrote this comment.
Riight, at least for PocketPCs there are many good text input methods (this being my favorite: http://www.decuma.com/pages/products/products.html ) and instead of buying a new computer...why not buy a infrared (or soon to arrive bluetooth) keyboard for your handheld. ;)
One would think that the growing popularity of PalmOS SmartPhones would make this a priority.
What you have to keep in mind here is the kind of people who mostly use smartphones: Business users. Do these people need always-available e-mail? Yes. Do they need always-available Web? Sure, comes in handy now and again. Do they need always-available AIM/ICQ to chat with their buddies? Err... no.
So, what you have to ask yourself is: Who would really love the idea of IM-ing their friends while they're out? Well, the answer to that is casual users--the kind that can't afford, nor see the need for, a smartphone. So, if you were a cell phone manufacturer, it'd be a smart move to have a version of AIM ported to your phone's proprietary OS and have the client pre-installed. And having just switched cell phone carriers, I've noticed this is exactly what manufacturers are doing on their consumer-level phones. Nokia has had AIM pre-loaded on their consumer-levels for a while (ever since the 3390 and now up to the ever-popular 3650), as do Samsung's R225, E105, and X105; and Motorola's C332, T722i, and their brand-spanking new V300.
So, really, what it all comes down to is where the market is. And if I had to harbor a guess, I'd say AOL is making tons more money licensing their AIM client to Nokia than it is hawking its $20 Palm OS client.
"Each time you smile, it'll only last awhile. Life may be scary, but it's only temporary."
unlikely that Microsoft could bribe their biggest competitors
Insightful?? Thats the funniest thing I've read here in a while. Can't you mods smell a troll? Microsoft was convicted of doing that not too long ago.
Ok, I'm curious, who did Microsoft bribe?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Some quotes from the FINDINGS OF FACT document from the antitrust trial:
Eric Engstrom, a Microsoft executive with responsibility for multimedia development, wrote to his superiors that one of Microsoft's goals was getting "Intel to stop helping Sun create Java Multimedia APIs, especially ones that run well (ie native implementations) on Windows." Engstrom proposed achieving this goal by offering Intel the following deal: Microsoft would incorporate into the Windows API set any multimedia interfaces that Intel agreed to not help Sun incorporate into the Java class libraries. Engstrom's efforts apparently bore fruit, for he testified at trial that Intel's IAL subsequently stopped helping Sun to develop class libraries that offered cutting-edge multimedia support
Microsoft charges a lower price to OEMs who agree to ship all but a minute fraction of their machines with an operating system pre-installed
Microsoft explained that if Netscape entered a "special relationship" with Microsoft, the company would treat Netscape as a "preferred ISV." This meant that Netscape would enjoy preferential access to technical information, including APIs.
Simply put, if Navigator exposed APIs that competed for developer attention with the Internet-related APIs Microsoft was planning to build into its platform, Microsoft would regard Netscape as a trespasser on its territory
Other firms in the computer industry have had encounters with Microsoft similar to the experiences of Netscape described above. These interactions demonstrate that it is Microsoft's corporate practice to pressure other firms to halt software development that either shows the potential to weaken the applications barrier to entry or competes directly with Microsoft's most cherished software products
In a subsequent memorandum to senior Microsoft executives, Gates reported that he had tried to convince Grove "to basically not ship NSP" and more generally to reduce the number of people working on software at Intel
Microsoft hastened to assure Intel that if it would stop promoting NSP's interfaces, Microsoft would accelerate its own work to incorporate the functions of the NSP software into Windows, thereby stimulating the development of applications and devices that relied on the new capabilities of Intel's microprocessors
I'll admit some of that doesn't directy imply bribery, but most of it fits quite well with what I and probably most others consider to be a bribe. Especially in the context that the grand parent poster used it. Money doesn't have to be in the form of bills either. I'd say that a monopoly promising to make someone a "preferred ISV" if they stop competing with them could easily be interpreted as a promise of financial gain.
Remember that ObviousGuy's allegation was that Microsoft was paying money to competitors. This is leaps and bounds ahead of the above, and unambiguously would be bribery.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
And Microsoft offered Netscape incentives to do things "the Microsoft way" - using Microsoft APIs
No, Microsoft said stop competing with us by making your browser a platform on Win32, and we'll give you special treatment.
it was Netscape's rejection of these requests that lead Microsoft to produce IE
And its on record that Microsoft stated they intended to develop IE regardless of what Netscape did.
(Sorry, it was an afterthought, not an attempt to fork the conversation)
Microsoft wanted Netscape to use the HTML renderers that were to be built into Windows for the Windows product. Netscape said no, they wanted control over the browser (as there'd be the potential for incompatabilities between the Unix and Mac versions, which used Netscape's own renderer, and a theoretical Windows version which used Microsoft's. This was, of course, exactly what Microsoft wanted.)
To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft never said they wanted Netscape to limit themselves to Win32. That wasn't Microsoft's concern - Microsoft's concern was that they didn't have control over a standard (HTML), not that the most popular implementation of it was available for other platforms.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Actually, I was just looking into Palm messaging clients last night...
Through T-Mobile you can log into AIM and send/receive messages over SMS. Now I haven't been able to verify this, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the built-in AIM clients on Nokia 3390/Samsumg R225m/etc use the same mechanism. Has anybody seen a PalmOS program (possibly working on a Treo 180? =] ) that'll take advantage of this, instead of the GPRS link?
[stupid no-credit, can't get GPRS from ANYBODY for a while]
I don't remember such a setting. If I left the Web Browser app to grab a URL from Memo, and went back, I'd have to reconnect. No matter if I was out of the Browser for 10 seconds or 10 minutes.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Along with the HTML renderers, the API which enabled applications to be written as Netscape applications, very similar to the threat from Sun in its Java API. Both offer the developer an abstraction layer which enables those developers to reach multiple platforms by developing applications using a portable framework instead of Microsofts own API, and threatens its monopoly. IE remained inferior to Netscape up until its demise. The idea that this attack on Netscape wasn't related to the threat of a portable API, toolkit or whatever you want to call it that already had a huge customer following is rediculous. Microsoft did what it had to do to make those things go away. Thats how the judge saw it, and thats the way the industry viewed it. To argue that Microsoft did those things to maintain quality standards or anything of the like is laughable.
And I'll maintain that Microsoft viewed Netscape and its API as a competitor for those reasons, and had little to nothing to do with Netscape giving up control of its HTML renderer. The entire episode was a big don't f*^k with us or we'll make life difficult for you and there is very strong evidence that they did. So much so, that judge convicted them of it.
To the best of my knowledge, Microsoft never said they wanted Netscape to limit themselves to Win32
I've never heard anybody make that claim ever. Quite the contrary, Microsoft was quite happy to give up the rest (including Unix, MacOS, and 16bit Windows) if Netscape stayed out of Win32 all together. I don't believe Microsoft ever had any other reason to develop a Mac port of IE other than to cut Netscape's last thread so to speak.
Back to the issue at hand though, I do not mean to argue that Microsoft bribed in the literal sense, just that the things they did had the very same effect as if they had, and the two aren't all that different. The goal was to shut down the competitor, not by making a superior product, or increasing efficiency, but by throwing its weight around and dangling carrots in front of the competition to make them retreat from Microsofts turf.
What I mean to say about the ObviousGuy post is that I read him as saying that maybe Microsoft had a hand in using these very same tactics for its Instant Messenger, and WinCE platform, that it was convicted of doing back then to Netscape and Java. I'm not saying they are, my reply GP post was meant as a I wouldn't put it past them.
If you mean to argue that Microsoft did these things to improve its own products and not to stifle competition, then you're just wrong. The courts said they did, and doing that is the basis of antitrust legislation. I'll quote another source:
Our case against Microsoft, decided last year, provides almost a laundry list of exclusionary conduct. These included: license restrictions on OEMs that thwarted distribution of competing browsers; integrating IE into Windows in a manner that deliberately made it more difficult for consumers to use another browser; agreements with IAPs, ISVs, and Apple that closed off enough significant channels of distribution to keep usage of Navigator below the critical level necessary for it to become a rival software development platform; deceiving developers into believing that MS Java would operate cross-platform; and pressuring Intel not to support cross-platform Java. In each case, court found that the conduct served to maintain Microsoft's market power in operating systems by preventing Netscape from gaining sufficient sales to become a competing platform and that Microsoft failed to show any legitimate business justifications for its actions.
- William J. Kolasky
Palm Web Pro, under Options | Preferences | General, has 'Disconnect on exit.' I am just guessing, of course, but I guess you had that option enabled.
I'm surprised I didn't see this mentioned above-- maybe I just overlooked it.
Anyway, although the "official" clients have been dead or dying for some time, verichat is alive and ticking. It's a multi-IM client, similar to Trillian. You do have to pay for it, but it was something like $30, so no big deal. Works with MSN, Yahoo, ICQ, AIM, and IRC, and the fee includes access to verichat's proxy server, which keeps you logged-in, online, and stores messages for you when your phone goes out of service.
If you're in the app, it's just like using an IM client, if the app is closed (because PalmOS is not really big on multitasking) IMs come in as SMS messages from the proxy server, and the verichat app captures them. I use it daily on my Treo 600.
I would suggest you read what I wrote literally rather than impuning motives that nobody who knows me would dare suggest. I'm well aware Microsoft is evil. Bribing a competitor isn't something they're known to do. It's not their modus operandi. They don't do it like that.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
A good guess. I had disconnect on exit disabled, because I was doing/planning on doing a lot network-requiring stuff.
I ran into some other weirdness with wifi on the Tungsten C, though. After having it for less than a day, and having not installed even *one* hack or app, wifi stopped working. Rather, opening up web browser (or hotsync) or going to config/activate the wifi network would request a wifi login, and lock the machine up. I would have to reboot. This of course made wifi impossible to use, and the machine in general a pain, because a wifi connection was attempted whenever I may have accidentally opened up some apps or prefs, which then locked the machine up. ugh. Doing a hard reset and starting over again from scratch fixed it, though I was always very worried it would come back again. Didn't keep it long enough to find out.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
There's plenty of open IM clients available for all number of platforms. Hell, there's gotta be like three in the top 25 list over at sourceforge.
Nobody has taken their own time to port one over to the Palm platform. Development on the Palm is pretty easy compared to a lot of platforms, I'm really surprised nobody has done it just for the sake of having it done. Why expect a commercial company to provide us something when we can build it ourselves? Aren't we Open Source, power-to-the-people, scree evil corporations that force feed us their closed clients?
I'm happily using Agile Messenger on my SymbianOS cellphone. Beats the hell out of 10 cent per SMS messages. I would even pay for the software if they weren't giving it out for free! As soon as they come out with a WiFi and GPRS Palm for under a million dollars, and somebody matches that with a reasonable cell data plan, then I'll switch back.
--D
Score: +1 Troll, but absolutely correct
Seemed like you were stating that the concern wasn't over the threat that Netscape as a platform presented together with Java.
I'm using bribed in the same liberal sense that I think ObviousGuy used it: as offering a reward to those that would help remove some applications of PalmOS. And competition to be a company that competes with its products (being Yahoo and AOL in the IM market)
What he said was:
- Does anyone else see this as a conspiracy on the part of Microsoft to get IM killed on Palm while building it up on Pocket PCs
From that I think follows that his use of the word bribe meant they offered money to Yahoo and AOL to cancel support for Palm. I don't see a big difference between offering currency to a company, and offerring special status leading to monetary gain. I'm not saying they did, and neither did he, but I believe that was what he meant when he said it.- Bribing a competitor isn't something they're known to do
I think I see where you're coming from in the sense that Yahoo and AOL compete with Microsoft in the Instant Messenger arena, and that Microsoft wouldn't want to help them because of that. I think the difference in this case is that Yahoo and AOL were in a position to eliminate support for another competitor, PalmOS. And that maybe they offered them some "special status" in reward for doing so, in the same way that they offered that special status to Netscape to stop collaborating with Sun and Java to mitigate the threat that it posed together with Netscape to the Win32 monopoly.- I'm well aware Microsoft is evil
I'm glad we can all agree on something.The cellphone creates and persists the connection, the Tungsten T handles user input, display, clipboards, and application shuffling. This reduces the number of conflicting interrupts either must cope with.
It is also plausible that GPRS connections are assumed to come and go as the users roll through a tunnels or burrow into parking structures where WiFi clients are assumed to stay put. This could influence dropped-connection results as well.
Maybe they're waiting for Palm OS 6 to be generally available. It's a true preemptive multitasking OS (finally) and done by a lot of the original Be developers.
Pity Palm/Handspring just released the Treo 600. An updated phone+PDA with Bluetooth running OS 6 and Gaim would be the ultimate communication tool.
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
Just get a Java VM on there and use their Java clients. Easy as that.