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Lawsuit Filed Against Unregulated GloFish

purduephotog writes "You may remember the infamous poll on glowing pets posted in response to the marketing of GloFish. The Center for Food Safety has filed a lawsuit asking to halt all sales of said fish until the government can properly regulate it. More information at ABCNews.com."

88 of 438 comments (clear)

  1. The Sky Is Falling! by grub · · Score: 5, Insightful


    The suit alleges the hidden genes can threaten human and animal health if the biotech fish are released and consumed by other fish that eventually are eaten by humans.

    I'm not a big fan of GM food but we've been monkeying with the food supply at a higher level for years: pesticides, fungicides, seedless fruits, selective breeding. More recently we have Monsanto and their 'Terminator Gene', etc.

    Worrying about fish that may make it to the wild and into the food chain seems pretty tame in comparison.

    (just had a thought.. someone with these GloFish(tm) should feed a few to their cat and watch for ill effects. I'd wager the only interesting bit would be the ability to scoop the litterbox in the dark. :))

    --
    Trolling is a art,
    1. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by hesiod · · Score: 2, Informative

      > the ability to scoop the litterbox in the dark

      Well, use a UV light. Feline urine is UV reactive. I wonher if dried cat pee is too? This is assuming your cat never "poos"...

    2. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by originalTMAN · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you're right, but I'd consider this a good start. We still don't know the consequences of what we're putting out there and it wouldn't be the first time if/when we get screwed by it (ddt, cane toads, carp, etc).

    3. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by pavon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This bothers me a little more because GM food has been tested and approved by the FDA so at least we know there are no obvious problems.

      I think that the odds of this getting into the food chain are high. Like the funny post below pointed out, you know that some wise-guy will think that it would be awsome to dump a bunch of these into the local lake, and suddenly you can't fish in that lake anymore, for a while a least. Heck I wouldn't put it against some crazy PETA-like people to "protect" the fish population by releasing these making the public scared to eat fish. So in my eyes, it is a certainty that these will get into the wild.

      Therefore the only responsible options (that I can think of) are
      1) Banning or strictly regulating them
      2) Determining that they are safe to eat and then letting anyone buy them.
      I am much more in favor of the second option.

    4. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by YukioMishima · · Score: 2, Informative

      IAAL but this isn't legal advice.


      "Worrying about fish that may make it to the wild and into the food chain seems pretty tame in comparison."


      The complaint of the CFS seeks regulation, or at least oversight - the point of the injunction is to stop something irresponsible before it starts, rather than waiting to see irreversible results before condeming them. It is true that GM food is an everyday part of our life, but the production of those crops is regulated, and with good reason. Additionally, this seems different than the life-saving potential of greater food production - if it's merely making money from entertainment value associated with the Nemo fad, then perhaps it should be looked at more seriously. These fish will make it into the wild one way or another, and the same concerns they have with Salmon (a food crop) shouldn't be ignored just because this is a toy.


      Not to mention the fact that some kid or college student will inevitably eat one of these.

    5. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by kfg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is typical beauraucratic "extension of mandate."

      If allowed it essentially says that American food safty regulations can encompass anything in the universe, since something somewhere might eat it and that something in turn get eatten by an American.

      If I may quote their website, top 'o the page:

      "Center for Food Safety works to protect human health and the environment. . .

      Emphasis mine.

      Hey guys? Yeah, you food Nazis, I'm talking to you.

      We already have and agency to protect the enviroment and provide jobs for enviro Nazis.

      It's called The Enviromental Protection Agency. Go figure.

      Now be good little lads and go figure out what that nasty stuff is that makes Froot Loops glow and how to protect me from it.

      Yes, yes, you'll get your traditional reward of a Ding Dong, with Cool Whip on it, with your glass of Tang at recess.

      KFG

    6. Re:The Sky Is Falling! by the+argonaut · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you really think that GE food has been tested and approved by the FDA, you're seriously deluding yourself. The FDA considers GE foods to be substantially equivalent to conventionally grown foods, hence why they do not require any labeling or real testing. The only real regulation is that you can't use genes from certain foods with significant allergenic properties (i.e., peanuts) in your experimentation with our food supply.

      --
      fuck you.
  2. Food Safety? by hesiod · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Who the heck is eating any fish that glows? So, what does "food safety" have to do with anything?

    1. Re:Food Safety? by acramon1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      "The FDA said last month it will not regulate the fish because it is not intended for human consumption. A spokeswoman said Wednesday the FDA stands by that statement." - from the ABCNEWS.com article.

      It seems the FDA doesn't think anyone's going to eat glowing fish either.

    2. Re:Food Safety? by viniosity · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Who the heck is eating any fish that glows?

      C'mon now - this the same country that has warnings designed to prevent people from accidentally swallowing photocopier toner. What do you think would happen if somebody actually ate one of these and got really really sick? (hint: the answer contains the words law and suit)

    3. Re:Food Safety? by originalTMAN · · Score: 3, Insightful

      no one consumed ddt, cfc, cane toads or asbestos either... I for one don't like the idea that we're messing around and marketing something that we don't really understand.

    4. Re:Food Safety? by jdhutchins · · Score: 2, Informative

      The FDA wasn't the one who regulated ddt, cfc's, etc. It was the EPA. The EPA would have to be the ones to regulate this, but they're pets, so I don't know if they really care.

    5. Re:Food Safety? by hesiod · · Score: 2, Informative

      > I for one don't like the idea that we're messing around and marketing something that we don't really understand.

      That's fine and I even agree, to a point. Maybe I should have been more clear: my problem is not that someone is bringing up a perfectly valid fear, but that it is some organization on "food safety." No one (AFAIK) is suggesting these should be eaten. Just because something lives, it is not food -- have they made lawsuits about the dangers of eating rare sea urchins? There are more of those than GloFish, but this one just happens to be "man-made" (well, man-spliced).

    6. Re:Food Safety? by pyros · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Who the heck is eating any fish that glows?


      potentially the fish that we do eat.


      So, what does "food safety" have to do with anything?


      I don't want to eat anything that's eaten something harmful to me, as that substance could be present in high enough concentrations to make me sick, or dead.

    7. Re:Food Safety? by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who the heck is eating any fish that glows? So, what does "food safety" have to do with anything?

      What if a GloFish is released into a fishing pond? Where it's likely to either be eaten by another fish, or worse, mate. We need to figure out if this GloFish has to be considered a polutant...

    8. Re:Food Safety? by pyros · · Score: 4, Interesting
      or worse, mate

      Aren't those fish sterile (on purpose)? I believe a read something like that when the news about them first came out.

      That actually brings up another concern. If an animal is genetically modified, including sterility, and it gets into the wild. There is a chance that the rest of the modifications will give it a reproductive advantage (like salmon made larger so we get more food out of them). So then you have all these sterile animals who are 'mating' with all the females, and no offspring are produced, which has a pretty bad effect on that population.

    9. Re:Food Safety? by Lobsang · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't want to eat anything that's eaten something harmful to me, as that substance could be present in high enough concentrations to make me sick, or dead.

      Even though I agree with you that fish we eat may eat the GloFish (and this is bad), I also think that if we go down your road we'll starve to death. Name something that is not fed/irrigated with something harmful or at least questionable these days...

    10. Re:Food Safety? by hesiod · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > What if a GloFish is released into a fishing pond?

      Then it is a matter for the EPA, not Food Safety. And yes, I know other fish will eat them. Those fish will eat and/or be affected by just about anything thrown into the pond. That's EPA, why isn't this?

    11. Re:Food Safety? by C10H14N2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I would highly recommend that you do not eat crustaceans from the Chesapeake bay then, despite the fact that they are delicious. In fact, all crustaceans would be verboten in that case as I doubt that putrid decaying animals and fecal matter would be things you'd want to eat yourself.

    12. Re:Food Safety? by DzugZug · · Score: 4, Informative
      I for one don't like the idea that we're messing around and marketing something that we don't really understand.

      Perhaps, but, I for one don't like the idea of people suing to stop things that they don't understand. The same goes for slashdot posters being afraid of things they don't understand. As one of the minority of biologists who frequent slashdot, I feel a small primer on GM technology is in order. I appologise in advance if this sounds preachy.

      First, gene's consist of two parts: a coding sequence (which defines the protien produced by the gene) and a promoter (which controls when and where that protein is made). Think of it as event driven programming -- when the promoter is activated, the protein is made. One good example is Heat Shock Protein (HSP). When the temperature of a cell get's too high, HSP changes shape and can then activate other genes' promoters. These genes mediate the cell's response to thermal stress. Green Flourecent Protein is a protein that occures naturally in a species of jelly fish (Aequorea Victoria) and it happens to be flourecent, i.e. when put under UV light it glows green. Scientists have known about GFP for a while and have created versions of it such as Red Flourecent Protein (RFP) or Cyan Flourecent Protein (CFP) that, after small changes to the coding region glow in different colors.

      Say, you want to study development. Early in animal development, there are three tissue types: endoderm, ectoderm, and mezoderm and all internal organs are decended from one of these three embryonic tissues. If you are interested in finding out which organs come from which early tissues, you could do it with transgenics as described below.

      Now, how to make a transgenic (GM) animal? First, using biochemical techniques you take the GFP gene and attach it to a promoter for a gene that is expressed (or turned on) in the endoderm. Then you put that construct into a small peice of DNA called a plasmid. The plasmid has some other genes also, such as a replication origin (which allows the plasmid to be coppied in bacteria but not in animals) and a neomycin (antibiotic) resistance gene taken from bacteria that are resistant to neomycin. Then you transfect bacteria (usually a non-pathogenic strain of E. Coli) with the plasmid. That is, you get the plasmid inside the E. Coli. Only a very small percentage of the E. Coli are transfected, so you grow them in media that contains neomycin -- that way you know all of the surviving bacteria cary the plasmid. Using this technique you can "grow" a lot of plasmid. Then, using a little biochemistry, you can isolate the plasmid from the bacteria and inject it into zebrafish embryos. Again, only a very small percentage of the zebrafish will incorperate the DNA into their genomes. Those that do, are transgenic.

      The entire process can then be repeated with RFP and the promoter for a mezoderm gene. Now you have a transgenic fish in which some organs glow green and some glow red. This is basically what the GloFish is.

      Note that all of the gene's present in the zebrafish are present elsewhere in nature. All that has happened is the scientists have moved a gene from one species to another. Note also, that the gene has become incorporated into the genome of the zebrafish and is not just floating around. A larger fish that eats this zebrafish is no more transgenic than you are a cow for eating beef. The larger fish will not make the protein and it is not possible for the transgene to become incorporated into the genome of other fish it comes in contact with.

      Likewise, the neomycin (or other antibiotic) resistance gene is not in bacteria and there is no way for it to get into bacteria. Only the zebrafish are neomycin resistant and (being vertibrate) neomycin never would have hurt them anyway.

      This lawsuit is spreading an example of the classic fear, uncertainty, and doubt that is spread by those who oppose any genetic modifications. I agree that we need to have a substantive debate about

    13. Re:Food Safety? by Yet+Another+Smith · · Score: 4, Informative

      What if a GloFish is released into a fishing pond? Where it's likely to either be eaten by another fish, or worse, mate. We need to figure out if this GloFish has to be considered a polutant...

      A) As another poster pointed out, that would be a matter for the EPA, not the FDA, but for some reason these guys are suing the FDA. The FDA doesn't regulate PCBs, yet you don't want to eat fish that ate them.

      B) As to wether the EPA should ban them, there's little reason to ban these any more than any other aquarium fish. GloFish are tropical (I think zebra?) fish. If GloFish are likely to get into the population, then so are all sorts of other pet fish. The fact is that they don't. Asiatic clams are an issue. Tropical pet fish are not. These are not Snakeheads we're talking about.

      C) Even if they were likely to get into the wild and survive, could they be dangerous? It is extremely unlikely. Numerous bioluminescent organisms currently live in our environment. Fireflies, certain fungi, lots of things are bioluminescent. Lots of things eat them, which could then get into the game-fish population, and nobody gets sick. These fish would use the same biological processes, and are therefore overwhelmingly unlikely to be harmful.

      I'm all for caution. There is a good argument that some GM organisms may be bad. But there are so many threats to the environment that are much much more important than GloFish that these people are wasting resources that could be used to fight important battles. As such they are actually harming the environment by slowing down legitimate cases. Hell, their own suit regarding GM salmon is much more likely to pan out as a legitimate concern, and I support intelligent questioning of GM salmon. But if these guys are wasting their time on this, I begin to doubt whether any of their lawsuits are based on anything other than reactionary anti-GM nay-saying, with no basis in a real threat to the environment or people.

      --
      if ($it != $onething) {$it = $another;}
  3. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by hchaos · · Score: 3, Funny
    Sheesh! Its not like people are going to be eating these fish. They could at least make it against the law to release them into the wild & some export restriction. Do they think that there will be some mishap and the fish will mutate into a super fish and do things like file patent lawsuits?
    You obviously haven't been to many drunken parties in your life.
  4. screw that by Tumbleweed · · Score: 5, Funny

    I say buy a whole bunch of them and release them into the wild. The aquatic equivalent of fireflys. Too awesome.

    Just don't make any with frickin' laser beams, and I think we'll be just fine.

    1. Re:screw that by H3lldr0p · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you sure about that?
      I for one do not believe for one second that our caveman ancestors would have gone anywhere near a glow-n-the-dark wolly mammoth.

  5. I feel sorry for that Glofish... by Microsift · · Score: 3, Funny

    probably can't find a lawyer who'll work for fish food and colored light.

    --
    My other sig is extremely clever...
  6. Misguided by loserbert · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why does the Center for Food Safety want to regulate my aquarium? How broke do they think I am?

    1. Re:Misguided by Orion442 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Guess all that time you spent hunting for tiny lures, tiny hooks and a tiny fishing pole was a waste.

  7. interesting uses for glo-fish by tuxette · · Score: 2, Informative

    I just read this article about an accidental genetic engineering of a two-headed fluorescent zebrafish. The hope is to use research results to develop drugs to cure muscular dystrophy.

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  8. But I want my day-glo sashimi! by pu'u_bear · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Seriously though, in the 50 years (wild guess) that zebrafish have been imported for aquariums, not to mention all of the developmental biology research done on them, no one has found a zebrafish invdading a non-native watershed. Besides, I have to think that them glowing would lead to rapid predation.

    --
    --You're BOTH right. It's a floor wax AND a desert topping!
  9. Next up to bat...PETA by GeneralEmergency · · Score: 4, Funny



    Since the Center for Food Safety is suing to stop people from owning glowing pets, shouldn't PETA now sue the Center for Food Safety because they are advocating that people routinely eat their pets?

    No really.

    --
    "A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
    GeneralEmergency
  10. Recall that... by GillBates0 · · Score: 2, Informative
    California had already banned the genetically engineered fish according to this old Slashdot story.

    Wonder why the poster/editors didn't backlink to it.

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:Recall that... by pyros · · Score: 2, Funny
      California had already banned the genetically engineered fish according to this old Slashdot story.

      Wonder why the poster/editors didn't backlink to it.

      They were going to repost it as a new front page article tomorrow, and link back to this one in the repost of the old one.

  11. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by hesiod · · Score: 5, Funny

    > > fish will mutate into a super fish and do things like file patent lawsuits?
    > You obviously haven't been to many drunken parties in your life.

    I've been to drunken parties, but no amount of alcohol has made me want to file a patent. *shudder*

  12. Frankenfoods by Mieckowski · · Score: 3, Funny

    They probably think it is radioactive because it glows.

  13. Lawsuit by daeley · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can see the adverts now:

    One Fish, Two Fish
    Red Fish, Blue Fish

    Wouldn't you like
    A mutant GloFish?

    (with apologies to Dr. Seuss)

    --
    I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
  14. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by Smidge204 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I had the same reaction, but you know someone is gonna do it anyway.

    Too bad they can't solve this by putting a warning label on 'em...

    Then again, if you're stupid enough to eat one you deserve what you get. That's just me, though. I mean, you can buy all sorts of dangerous pets and there's no law protecting you if you stick your hand in the cage, right? So what if they're genetically engineered, they're for looking not eating.
    =Smidge=

  15. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by The_K4 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ever seen an Aligator Gar? People get these fish as pets, when it gets too big (or little Johny doesn't want the fish any more) they find their way into the river or lake. I forget the name but there were a couple of cases of these fish last summer that bite and are dangerous (from Asia somewhere) turning up in US lakes.

    I don't think they need to be illegal but laws about not releasing into the wild have failed miserable before.

  16. Re:Food safety by va3atc · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Center for Food Safety? People eat the glowing fish?

    LoL, good one :-)

    On a serious note,

    It has to do with consequences if these fish would have if they ended up in your streams and lakes.

    Steve

    --
    Candle burns its brightest in the dark
  17. Glo-Fish Don't Glow in the dark by Merlinium · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ok obviously to many people are taking things literally to much, they only glow when there is a Light source that shows the transplanted Gene, ie a Black light or a infrared light, they do not glow in the dark, they do not emit light at all. under normal light they appear to be normal Zerba striped fish. so all this glowing poop and firefly fish is utter nonsense. Sheesh no wonder they got people like those that are sueing for regulation of these fish. The unfortunate part in all of this is that their parents were not sued and stopped from creating such a whining ass Tard as they have become. The worlds population is doubling every 40 years, what a shame the intelligence factor is not keeping pace.

    --
    If firefighters fight fire and crime fighters fight crime, what do Freedom fighters fight?
    1. Re:Glo-Fish Don't Glow in the dark by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Which brings up an interesting point... they're not emitting light (as a firefly can) but they simply reflect a rather unusual color.

      Still, we've used GM to create a fish that hasn't occured in the wild... no natrual zebra fish comes out with that color. Was anything else changed in the process? We're not sure about that...

    2. Re:Glo-Fish Don't Glow in the dark by John+Newman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As has been said elsewhere, they fluoresce. That means they absorb light of one wavelength (UV in this case) and emit light of another wavelength (green). So they emit light just like fireflies. It's just that they need to absord light first before emitting it; while the luciferase in a firefly gets the energy for its light emission from an oxidation reaction, so it works in the dark.

      The protein that creates this fluorescence, GFP (green fluorescent protein) is an all-natural protein found in undersea organisms. Inserting its gene into the zebrafish genome caused no other changes. We can be as sure about that as I can be that you weren't born with two heads (i.e. almost certain, but there are no absolutes in biology).

      It's true that you don't find fluorescent zebrafish in the wild, but then I don't see any poodle-wolves or siamese-lions in the wild either. Every domesticated animal has undergone far, far more extensive genetic modifcation than any molecular biologist can even begin to comprehend. To say nothing of domesticated plants. You think corn looked like that when it was a wild plant? You think bananas didn't have seeds? But instead we worry about adding a single harmless gene to an aquarium fish?

  18. Can anyone verify this quote by JustAnotherReader · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The suit alleges the hidden genes can threaten human and animal health if the biotech fish are released and consumed by other fish that eventually are eaten by humans.

    Is this even possible? I mean, if I eat meat from an animal that has a genetic pre-disposition to being diabetic it doesn't mean that I will become diabetic. Is there any evidence at all that eating a genetically altered animal will in any way effect the genetics of the animal that consumes it?

    Does anyone here have the background to clear this up? It seems that this is the crux issue. If it's not possible to transport any genetic information (and I would think that it's not) then this is a total knee-jerk reaction with no science to back it up.

    1. Re:Can anyone verify this quote by fireduck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      a number of organisms exist that glow or luminesce (various bacteria, fireflies, some squid, etc.). their predators do not glow or luminesce. hence, it's fairly obvious that if little timmy eats the glofish, he's not gonna glow.

      For a more scientific perspective, I am currently researching the potential for DNA transport in the environment and its potential danger--think dead plants that have been modified in some way, (say pesticide resistance), and bits of their DNA being incorporated by bacteria. While the process can occur, i.e., bacteria can pick up DNA from outside the cell, the frequency with which it occurs is very small (this is called transformation).

      We're not bacteria, and I don't have much knowledge of transformation in higher organisms, but a quick look at a microbiology book says that eukaryotic sells have a different mechanism (transfection), which seems to have an even smaller chance of success.

      so, bottom line, it's a nonissue, at least in terms of people eating them. bacteria picking up the genes, however, is a bigger issue though...

    2. Re:Can anyone verify this quote by srleffler · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Is there any evidence at all that eating a genetically altered animal will in any way effect the genetics of the animal that consumes it?

      No, but it is possible that a genetically altered animal might produce proteins that would be harmful to animals that eat it, or people that eat those animals. If you don't believe me, look up prions for an example of a harmful protein that can be passed on in this way.

      A more likely harmful situation would be for a genetically altered creature to produce compounds that are simply toxic or carcinogenic. Those might also be passed on up the food chain.

    3. Re:Can anyone verify this quote by larkost · · Score: 2, Informative

      No... the leading theory on both BSE and CJD are that a protein gets folded in the wrong way, and becomes a catalyst for folding other proteins in the same (wrong) way. This is called a prion. The only association with genetic structure (other than the protein modeling tools used to study both) is that there might be a genetic pre-disposition for a lack of mechanism that helps prevent the bad folding for happening in the first place.

      I will stress that this is all theory, and there are lots of scientists out there with other theories.

  19. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by dick980 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If they sell these fish, once they die, what do you think people will do with their dead fish? Not all people will be responsible about disposal--one flush down the toilet, or one dumping into a creek, and this genetic modification is now in the environment. Bigger fish comes by and eats it. Now what?

    This is only one of a plethora of examples that may (and probably will) happen. What happens when an organism ingests this GM fish? Will it cause cancer? Bastard prions causing a new vCJD? New flu virus that no one has seen before? No one knows. This is why it needs to be regulated.

  20. This had better not dash my dreams . . . by StefanJ · · Score: 3, Funny
    . . . of owning a GMO Border collie with prehensile paws and a obsessive compulsive disorder that compels him to pair up my freshly laundered socks and keep my bookshelves in order.

    If he can herd those damn neighbor kids off the lawn between laundry loads, so much the better. If he has any spare time after that, he's free to play cards with the neo-ferret who inspects the cable runs and cleans out the air ducts.

    Nyahhhh, rotten kids and their goddamn glowing green racing llamas.

    Stefan

  21. Re:Let me get this straight...??? by fiendo · · Score: 2, Informative

    Studies have shown that this genetically modified fish is in no way dangerous to humans, even if consumed... The exact quote from the article was "The company's chief executive, Alan Blake, said scientific studies have shown the fish are safe and the lawsuit is without merit."

    --
    I went to the city because I wished to live without deliberation.
  22. I support this allegation... by GillBates0 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The suit alleges the hidden genes can threaten human and animal health if the biotech fish are released and consumed by other fish that eventually are eaten by humans.

    because I've been doing a bit of reading on the Mad Cow disease lately. The disease, has a dormant time of a few years in cows (it can go unnoticed for about 10 years), and for an equivalent period in humans as the CJD disease. As a result, it's possible that a large number of humans contracted the disease about a decade ago, due to a cow which got it about two decades ago. There's speculation that some older people being misdiagnosed with other debilitating brain disorders, are actually CJD patients.

    Mad cow disease is originally believed to have been caused as a result of feeding beef/other meat products to cows. After the US passed a law saying that cows could not be fed food based on beef, lawyers found a way around it (no time to dig up link right now): they started feeding beef products to chicken and chicken based products to beef.

    My point is: using genetically altered food, and generally exploiting nature in unnatural ways has been found to result in long-term genetic and other problems for humans (can anybody tell me how the first case of AIDS is believed to have occurred). Putting genetically modified fish in the food-chain is not a good idea, unless it's *very* strictly controlled to make sure the fish aren't eaten by other animals.

    /end rant

    --
    An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
    1. Re:I support this allegation... by djrogers · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What? Mad cow has exactly NOTHING to do with GM foods! BSE is currently thought to be caused by a specific protein that inhabits the spinal cord and brain of infected cattle. This is not a result of cows eating GM cows - nor is it punishment for some sort of animistic cannibalism. The ban on cows eating cows was related to cross contamination - ie a healthy cow eats a sick cow and subsequently gets sick - of BSE. BTW - nice try with AIDS too, but again, it has NOTHING to do with GM unless you buy into the c-o-n-spiracy theories...

      --
      Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
  23. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by fejikso · · Score: 2, Informative

    If I remember correctly, these fish are also modified to be sterile. Therefore, even if the fish escape to the wild, they would not reproduce and spread their artificial mutations.

  24. They don't GLOW! They are just bright colored. : ( by osjedi · · Score: 2, Informative


    These are not "glowing fish". They do not emit light. They are just brightly colored. BORING.

    --
    -=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
  25. Anti-GM Luddites by John+Jorsett · · Score: 3, Informative

    Center for Food Safety works to protect human health and the environment by curbing the proliferation of harmful food production technologies and by promoting organic and other forms of sustainable agriculture. CFS engages in legal, scientific and grassroots initiatives to guide national and international policymaking on critical food safety issues.

    CFS doesn't want genetically modified food, period. It's closely associated with Jeremy Rifkin of Foundation on Economic Trends, which pretty much says it all regarding where CFS comes down on the political/technological issues.

  26. FAQ on their Website by coronaride · · Score: 2, Informative

    did anyone read this?

    These fish have already existed for several years and were developed to help fight pollution. By breeding these existing fish, we will allow people to have their own fluorescent fish while promoting the beneficial scientific goals behind their development. In fact, a portion of the proceeds from sales will go directly to the lab where these fish were created in order to further their research--research we hope will help to protect the environment and save lives.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, go into business for themselves.
  27. Pertinent information by Mieckowski · · Score: 3, Informative

    Taken from web site: FAQs What will happen if a fluorescent zebra fish escapes into the waterways? Zebra fish are tropical fish and are unable to survive in non-tropical environments. They have been sold to pet owners worldwide for more than fifty years. Despite all these years of aquarium ownership, zebra fish are only found in tropical environments, such as their native India. However, it is important to remember that GloFish(TM) fluorescent fish are intended for use as aquarium fish only, and should never be intentionally released into the wild. What if a fluorescent zebra fish is eaten in the wild by another animal? For an animal in the wild, eating a fluorescent zebra fish is the same as eating any other zebra fish. Their fluorescence is derived from a gene that is already found in nature and is completely safe for the environment. Just as eating a blue fish would not turn a predator blue, eating a fluorescent fish would not make a predator fluoresce. However, please remember that fluorescent zebra fish are NOT intended for human consumption. What will happen to me if I eat one of these fish? Fluorescent zebra fish, like all ornamental fish, are NOT intended for human consumption; they should never be eaten.

  28. Re:Sadly this is news... by sfjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think there are bigger threats to the survival of mankind than some glow in the dark fish.

    You're probably right. But, on the other hand, we realy have no way of knowing what the long-term effects are and that is the nut of the matter.
    John Q. Public buys glowing fish for his kids, gets tired of feeding them and tosses them in the local river where they become part of the food chain.
    AIDS is such a scourge because it can spread quietly for years before it shows itself in symptoms. What if it takes twenty years of eating genetically-modified foods before poisonous levels of some protein are developed in the body? The sciense we're relying on to tell us this is safe has largely been funded by the people who stand to make a profit off of it. Are you ready to roll the dice now?

    --
    It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
  29. When GloFish are outlawed... by Sowbug · · Score: 5, Funny

    only outlaws will eat GloFish.

    1. Re:When GloFish are outlawed... by Polo · · Score: 2, Funny

      If marriage is outlawed....

      only outlaws will have in-laws.

  30. And here I was all set to open a Sushi joint. by Kenja · · Score: 2, Funny
    And here I was all set to open a Sushi joint. I was gona call it Chernobyl Zushi.

    Ah well.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  31. GoFish for GloFish... by dexterpexter · · Score: 2, Funny

    *laughs*

    Well, considering the amount of ridiculous trademark infringement cases we have seen in the news recently, I am suprised that the Go Fish Card Game People have not sued the GloFish people for infringement. Hey, if people can confuse Lindows with Windows, then why not?

    I, for one, welcome our new GloFish Overlords...

    --

    *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
    "We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms."
  32. A GOOD use for the Terminator Gene (big "?") by StefanJ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you follow the link, you'll find that Monsanto, for whom I have no great love either, has abandoned the project.

    A friend thought of a genuinely interesting use for a crop with terminator genes:

    Erosion control.

    There are several species of fast-growing plant what would be very useful for preventing (say) an hilly area whose forest cover burned away from eroding, but who are also dangerous "alien" species.

    Kudzu is one example; more subtle is the bizarre-looking "ice plant" that was imported to California for erosion control along railways but has become a pest.

    It might be worth a research project to look into whether a fast-growing erosion control plant equipped with terminator genes could stabilize a burned-out area, retaining the soil for long enough for native plants to get a toe-hold. And then die out . . .

    Stefan

    1. Re:A GOOD use for the Terminator Gene (big "?") by GoRK · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Eucalyptis tree is similarly a problem in Hawaii. It was brought in to solve erosion and weather problems many years ago after the rainforest was cleared to harvest sandalwood; however, being an alien species and highly monotypic, it is now preventing the native plants from growing back. The guy who brought the tree in said something to the effect of "you'll laud me now but hate me later." I agree that it would be good to have such a plant that can be used in this manner as an environment booster and then automatically die off. Too bad when you start talking about this kind of stuff all the tree huggers can smell is themselves. Genetic research and genetic manipulation is one of the few tools that we have at our disposal to make proper environmental repairs in a timely manner and ensure that we don't have to do any more damage as the human population grows.

    2. Re:A GOOD use for the Terminator Gene (big "?") by Smallpond · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's right. The plants that pick up the gene would be unable to reproduce and would all die out! Pretty soon all you would have left would be the plants without the gene!

      Oh, wait...

    3. Re:A GOOD use for the Terminator Gene (big "?") by Alsee · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All the Terminator gene does is sterilize the seeds, but Kudzu (and similar) is such a fast growing plant exactly because it has no need to go through a seed cycle. It simply spreads and roots and spreads and roots - potentially one monsterously large plant covering a hundred acres. Whoops! :D

      P.S.
      Genetic engineers are number five on the Top Ten list of People You Do Not Want To Hear Say "Whoops!"

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  33. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 2, Informative

    You must be refering to the snakehead fish (native of china) found in maryland.
    These are meat-eating fish, which eat other fish. Some local dude, got them as pets and then threw them in a pond (hundreds of them), once he got bored.
    There was a lot of fear, of these fish disturbing the fish eco-system of eastern USA

    --
    for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
  34. Re:They don't GLOW! They are just bright colored. by DeepStream · · Score: 3, Informative

    In fact, they do emit light. They are fluorescent, meaning that they absorb photons of one wavelength (in this case in the UV band, I believe) and re-emit photons of a different wavelength (in the visible). They won't glow in the absence of any UV, but they most certainly can emit visible light even in the dark.

  35. Actually humans get vCJD from eating BSE Beef... by AzrealAO · · Score: 2, Informative

    vCJD is variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease.

    The nature of the TSE agent is being investigated and is still a matter of debate. According to the prion theory, the agent is composed largely, if not entirely, of a self-replicating protein, referred to as a prion. Another theory argues that the agent is virus-like and possesses nucleic acids which carry genetic information. Although strong evidence collected over the past decade supports the prion theory, the ability of the TSE agent to form multiple strains is more easily explained by a virus-like agent.

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs180/en /

  36. It's not consumption of genes, but Virii... by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 2, Informative

    These fish are created by inducing mass genetic mutation with a specially bred virus which alters the DNA of the cells which it infects. The virus itself is benign enough to initial observation. The concern is that these fish, by definition, have been affected by the virus.

    If one of these fish was released into the wild, there is potential that the virus would also be released into the wild. When that occurs, the aftermath could be catastrophic. Or it could also be completely benign. The suit is demanding that this question be determined before the fish are released to people in general.

    --
    "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
  37. Re:Let me get this straight...??? by justin_speers · · Score: 4, Insightful

    EEEEEH!!! Wrong!

    Just because a company says that a product it is selling is safe does not mean it isn't. Point me to one study that justifies a lawsuit.

    I'll point you to some evidence that your statement is wrong:

    Right off the bat, I can show you just spoke out of your ass:

    "There is no evidence that these genetically engineered zebra danio fish pose any more threat to the environment than their unmodified counterparts which have long been widely sold in the United States. In the absence of a clear risk to the public health, the FDA finds no reason to regulate these particular fish."

    http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2003/NEW00994 .h tml

    In fact:

    "The zebra fish were originally developed to detect environmental toxins, but Alan Blake and colleagues at Yorktown Technologies, L.P. licensed them to sell as pets."

    http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/11/21/offbeat.glofish .r eut/

    Please, point us to a single study that says they aren't safe. A real study, not just someone being irrationally paranoid about the mystical evils of genetic engineering.

    We all saw Jurassic Park, but that's not a reason to go freaking out about a cool invention.

  38. Re:Its only an aquarium fish! by JDevers · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When an organism eats this GM fish, it will be full. Nothing else. Why would it be any different than eating the anemone that the gene is from in the FIRST place?

    Seriously, no higher organism sucks up genes from its diet and adds them to its genome, it just doesn't work like that.

  39. Somewhere in America ... by FreeUser · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... there is an idiot stupid enough to eat cochroaches. Or automobile tires. Or used condoms.

    These people exist. Usually nature is somewhat effective in removing them from the evolutionary process, if the species is lucky enought to have them engage in their favorite passtime prior to producing progeny.

    In any event, whether or not the species is fortunate enough to have such fools removed from the gene pool prior to procreation, one thing is certain. No one is stupid enough to propose the FDA regulate cockroaches, automobile tires, or used condoms.

    But apparently some anti-genetic science luddites are stupid enough to think the FDA should regulate the genetically modified equivelent of gold fish. Alas, such idiots are not so accomidating as to remove themselves from our collective gene pool, more's the pity.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
    1. Re:Somewhere in America ... by Aumaden · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This is precisely why we see no obvious evolution of the human species. The lawyers won't let us kill off those who should never be allowed to procreate.

      Of course, it could be argued that that is a survival instinct on the part of lawyers.

  40. What a waste of effort by frovingslosh · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "They" are exposing our food to radiation and not telling us about it on the package. "They" are feeding us Frankenfoods and not telling us about it (in the U.S.) Even with all the known dangers of Mad Cow, "they" feed rendered cows to chickens, and then turn right around and feed "chicken scratch" (which includes stuff that has not passed through the chicken as well as stuff that has) back to the cows in the U.S. This and hundreds of other much more serious issues go on all around us, but these people are wasting time (and environmental crediability) by fighting little fish (that don't really glow without the help of a black light, by the way)! Sure, these fish might get out. So might any of the other tropical fish in the hobbly. Most, like these fish, would not survive. Heck, regular zebra fish have a much better chance to survive in an echo system as an alien species and affect it than these toys do.

    I'm not crazy about a world of genetically modified creatures, but there are more important things that already affect our lives that these people should be going after, not likely harmless little red fish.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  41. -1, Uninformed by Tim · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My point is: using genetically altered food, and generally exploiting nature in unnatural ways has been found to result in long-term genetic and other problems for humans (can anybody tell me how the first case of AIDS is believed to have occurred). Putting genetically modified fish in the food-chain is not a good idea, unless it's *very* strictly controlled to make sure the fish aren't eaten by other animals.

    You don't know what you're talking about. This wouldn't be bad, except for the fact that you're propagating your silly, sky-is-falling rhetoric to other people, who will hear you use factual-sounding words, and therefore think that you have some knowledge of the subject and possibly listen to you.

    One of the first errors you make is in the assumption that the modification to the glowfish is poorly understood. In fact, the protein that is responsible for this was isolated from a living organism, is widely used in biomedical research (even to the point of modifying living human cells), and is extremely well-characterized. Contrast this to the protein that is hypothesized to cause vCJD: we don't even know what it is with any confidence, let alone how it works. Apples and oranges.

    Furthermore, you confuse (purposefully?) a naturally-occuring disease (vCJD) with the results of genetic engineering. Let me reiterate: vCJD has nothing to do with genetic engineering. The prion assumed to be responsible for vCJD has occurred spontaneously in nature for a very long time. Similar mutant proteins spontaneously occur in elk, deer, and, yes, humans. Equating Mad Cow with genetic engineering is just a cheap scare tactic. (Ditto for your AIDS reference -- HIV has a long evolutionary history, and is known to have evolved from other viruses in other organisms. No genetic boogeymen involved.)

    In short, your conclusion is completely unfounded. Genetically altered food has never been implicated in long-term genetic or medical problems for humans. It may be true that the long-term health effects of particular mutations haven't been studied adequately, but that doesn't support your assertion. And, ultimately, compared to the genetically-modified organisms being sold into our food supply every day, the Glowfish is extremely well-characterized and inert.

    --
    Let's try not to let fact interfere with our speculation here, OK?
    1. Re:-1, Uninformed by oliphaunt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Phew, thank goodness someone else said it first. Here's links to a couple of articles about the active chromophore in the fish, vs. the active prion that causes BSE/vCJD. Good images in the flourescent protein article.

      Repeat after me, everyone: Eating GM food will not cause my genes to be modified.

      --




      Humpty Dumpty was pushed.
  42. Re:Let me get this straight...??? by justin_speers · · Score: 4, Insightful



    I imagine any study I point to will be immediately dismissed by you as being "irrationally paranoid" so you'll have to excuse me for not wasting my time doing a Google search.


    I did one for you, I didn't see any. I found the ones I pointed to though. Please use real studies, facts, and logic to justify lawsuits. It's your line of thinking that has led to this horrible overlawyered situation we have today. You gave absolutely no reason why these fish are a menace to society, you just assume they are because rich people created them.


    Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done, especially when the only gain is to make someone enough money to buy their second Hummer, "cool invention" or not.


    Rich people have done more for this world than whiners like you ever will. It's because of the rich people in this world who work their asses off to invent things that you can sit in front of your computer typing pointless messages on /. They invented that car you drive around, and they bought up all the expensive new inventions to drive the price down so people like you could buy glowing fish.


    If you pointed me to a real study, done by an unbiased third-party, that justified your claims, I would not call you irrationally paranoid, instead I might learn something.


    But obviously I'm not going to learn anything from you today, and that's disappointing.


    I wish people would stop suing and trying to regulate everything just because they don't trust it, for some reason they can't put their finger on.


    In the meantime, the only people calling this product "unsafe" have no evidence whatsoever to back up their claims. Again, please point me to some if you have some inside knowledge. But I'd hate for you to "waste your time" by doing a 2 second google search.

  43. There are alternatives! by WebGangsta · · Score: 2, Funny
    Aquarium-based Lasers!

    Of course, if they can do this, then it's just a short step from here to sharks with lasers attached to their heads.

  44. People seem to be missing the point by fantastic+max · · Score: 2, Informative

    As a scientist and as an educator, I have to remind people about the possible side-effects involved in tinkering at this level. While Glo-fish are a fad, the original fluorescent zebra fish provide an invaluable tool to study developmental biology, as do green and red mice that are not sold as pets. The bad efffects of not having regulation on these fad pets is that anyone can get these as pets. And I know how people treat pets. Noone says that we have to worry about eating Glofish and ingesting the foreign genes. The real problem comes from the possibility of horizontal transmission of the antibiotic resistance gene. As with any GM food/organism, you simply don't want to introduce exogenous genes into the general population. Some government agency should be regulating these novelty items.

  45. Re:Let me get this straight...??? by justin_speers · · Score: 3, Informative

    heh, you're getting funny.

    There's nothing "blind" about my "worship" of the rich. I admire what a lot of rich people have done with their lives and the good it has done for all of us. I spelled out my reasons very clearly. That isn't blind. I hope to be one of them in the (near) future.

    What strikes me as rather "blind" is your hatred of the rich, so much to the point where you seem to think this lawsuit is a good idea, but you can't tell me why.

    You think they have no right to profit off something they have invested time and money in, because it might be dangerous, but you can't tell us why it is dangerous, and you are contradicted by several studies including one by the FDA.

    I'm having fun with you here, but I'm going to have to stop replying until you point me to a single study that justifies suing the people who invented this product.

    Government regulation is a serious thing, that costs businesses a lot of money and leads them to invest less money in R&D and EMPLOYING PEOPLE.

    I pointed out how you were wrong with your original statement (The only people who have determined this product is safe are the ones selling it) by pointing out other people who were saying it. You admitted you were too lazy to do a google search to do me wrong, or you lied, did one, found nothing, and claimed laziness instead of admitting you were wrong or being quiet.

    You blindly hate rich people, innovation, inventors, etc. You've shown that through your posts. So please, don't call me blind. I gave my reasons for everything, if you are illiterate there is nothing I can do to help you....

    Until then, I'd love to hear some evidence from you justifying the lawsuit you support against a very innovative company. Or at least some teeny-tiny reasons for why you believe what you "believe".

    Until then, you sound silly. But hey, maybe SCO is hiring!

  46. I can't believe what I'm hearing.. by Reaverkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It should be plainly obvious that this kind of commercial practice is extremely dangerous to our environment and sets a poor precedent. Who are we to say that this species is harmless? Please don't tell me that they understand the consequences of such a fish getting into the wild! Hell, it need be only slightly less pallatable to predators and (eventually) you can kiss the 'pure-bred' version goodbye.

    Perhaps I am simply nostalgic, but I'd prefer leave the ecosystem to successive generations more or less how I found it. I don't want the ocean to look like a rave.

    Is it really necessary to assume these kinds of risks and meddle with nature simply for people's amusement?

  47. Re:Hook, line, and sinker by KDan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    While I agree with your point about other animals, funnily enough I think that where humans are concerned, genetic engineering is the only possible next step.

    Why?

    Because evolution, for humans (at least in the western world), has in effect come to a standstill. The sick don't die, and even when they do die they often have time to reproduce first (except for a very small minority). The weak don't get eaten by predators. The stupid don't get eaten by predators as well, though their country does... but that's another topic. Anyway so my point is that there are no selection factors that are able to affect humanity at large, because there's too many of us and we're too well protected from our environment. Note that I think it's great that we're not playing that game anymore, because that game is not one that is acceptable for us, intelligent, thinking human beings.

    So then, the only way to continue evolving as a species is to drive our own evolution. There are several ways you can do that. You can use the nazi way of selective breeding (or rather selective killing), only let people with 'good genes' have kids... but what a terrible world that would be. Or you could use a bit of genetic engineering to nudge things forward. The latter needs to be done with great care to avoid all the potential dangers, but it is clearly a better solution than the former, and a better solution than simply doing nothing and stagnating forever (or until we kill each other with nukes or pretzels or whatever).

    Daniel

    --
    Carpe Diem
  48. Frankenstin? by gone.fishing · · Score: 2

    For the love of God will somebody please explain to me how "genetic engineering" is going to destroy the earth? I don't get it. Really, it isn't obvious to me.

    Every day we eat foods that are genetic modifications of the originals. The corn we eat today bears very little resemblence to the maize eaten by the indians and original settlers. Apples, like the Red Delicious are hybrids - it hardly seems to be the same thing that comes from the apple tree in my back yard. Today's cattle are larger and better than those grown in the '30's & 40's, same thing goes for pigs. Turkeys and chickens produce more white meat today than they did even a few years ago. They are all GENETIC MUTATIONS! Should I stop eating them? No. They are better than the originals.

    Genetic engineering is a science. These people understand what they are doing. They are ethical people who do their best to deliver safe, reliable, beneficial products to market. The companies that employ them expose themselves to great liability so they test these products thouroughly.

    I'm not ready for scientists to graft human DNA into apes to create a ready supply of transplantable organs but that goes more to ethical questions than it does to the science.

    Science is all about discovery to bebefit mankind. Engineering is all about the application of science to benefit mankind. It is a good thing to have oversight of these processes but there are far too many out there crying wolf!

    Thinking that there are mad scientists out there creating evil things to benefit themselves is largely a product of Hollywood. The people that can't seperate Hollywood fantasy from reality are the ones screaming that mad scientists will create a genetic mutation that will destroy humanity.

  49. Okay. This is just fundamentally wrong. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 2, Informative

    They filed a lawsuit because they want a law passed?

    Haven't they heard about the separation of powers? Jeez.

    You know, we used to teach kids that if you want a law passed, you talk to your local representitive with the legislature. You know, the group that's supposed to pass the laws?

    The judiciary is supposed to interpret the existing laws, not go around making up news ones!

  50. What nonsense. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would like you to provide some proof that any animal more complex than a bacteria has ever taken up the DNA of a creature it consumed.

    What complete fear mongering.

  51. Actually, that's just the current theory. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 2, Informative

    While it's a good theory, the transmission path has never been proven.

  52. ROTFL! by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, that's pretty much how viruses spread, isn't it? By infecting hosts, which involves invading cells, injecting RNA and reconfiguring the host cell to produce more virus.

    On the other hand, as I said before show me one example where a creature more complex than a bacteria has taken up DNA from a creature it has consumed.

    Otherwise just give up and admit you're spouting bullshit.

    Oh, and a bonus question: show me a viral infection that alters the germline DNA.

  53. Re:Hook, line, and sinker by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Because evolution, for humans (at least in the western world), has in effect come to a standstill. The sick don't die, and even when they do die they often have time to reproduce first (except for a very small minority). The weak don't get eaten by predators. The stupid don't get eaten by predators as well, though their country does... but that's another topic. Anyway so my point is that there are no selection factors that are able to affect humanity at large

    That's not even half the problem. Without the selection, the gene pool actually gets progresively weaker! People with bad immune systems (e.g.) can take drugs to prolong their life. If the disease is genetic, then it won't be getting filtered out at all, and it will propagate if they have children. Within X generations, the majority of the population will carry serious flaws from the miriad of things that can go wrong with the human body.

    Take bad eyesight as a simple example, assuming it was genetic. 1000 years ago, you would be a shit hunter or forrager, and your genetic seed would not prosper. But now, with corrective lenses and recently surgery, it's a non-issue to your prosperity. Who's to say that in a couple hundred years, all humans in the developed world may require corrective eye surgery? I think it's pretty likely.

    Childbirth is the same. Several hundred years ago, you'd have at least ten kids, with maybe 2-3 making it to adulthood, basically the strongest ones. Evolution. Most would die in the first year. England has published some really old data on the net, such as the birth and death registrars. It's really scary and tragic to take a browse through them, as you can see clear evidence of the infant mortality rate. Now, every child saved nowadays from a random complication is a score for human progress. But every genetic problem we workaround is a potential problem for the following generations.

    This has been on my mind for years. Evolution hasn't stopped; it's regressed. It pretty much stopped the moment we learned to read and write, although in reality we've just changed the rulebook, as you say yourself. Physical (i.e. genetic) attributes are now a side-note in our success in staying alive long enough to reproduce, and alcohol completely trashes the good looks==good health instict we have! The biggest factor now is simply how many babies each set of parents is willing to churn out. And in many cases, that's an entirely wrong metric, as a set of unresponsible parents can kick out another uncared-for kid almost every year, while families that actually rear their children into responsible adults tend to be smaller. Social de-evolution.

    The solution? I wish I had one, I'm just pointing out the problem. The obvious ones are all morally rehensible and total non-starters, and some have been tried before, even in civilised countries. After much thought, the only one I can see is "live with it". I just hope our healthcare keeps up. The economic factors in access to healthcare could be come a key part of your evolutionary score in future, which will favour the rich. Which in it's own way is going back to basic evolution. It's a messy subject!

    Any non-Nazi style solutions would be welcome!!

  54. Re:Hook, line, and sinker by glesga_kiss · · Score: 2, Funny
    Actually no. Genetic diseases can and are being selected out by in vitro fertilisation and selective implantation.

    Personally, I like the traditional way of having kids, you know, sex!! ;-)

    It surely is A Brave New World.