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Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us?
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
Hey, now the Israelis and the Saudis can team up! You knew Open Source was going to turn political.
To be honest, I found the article on the takeup of Linux more interesting than whether or not geeks in another country are just like us. The fact that Linux is being used in the space infrastructure of Saudi Arabia will no doubt help to accelerate its adoption in poorer countries such as the Indian south subcontinent and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I was also impressed by the sheer standard of Linux knowledge displayed by the Saudi computer expert considering that over there in the country they estimate its market share to be only 4%. (Note that that's greater than in the UK or the US, though.)
Ron dies in chapter 9 of book 7.
It does sound twisted, but because it is in context of a country where free speech is quite restricted - the thought did pop in my head.
Could it happen that some day spamming techniques or "spammers" will be hired by people who want to exercise their free speech ? You could spam with censored information when every other means of getting your voice heard is suppressed ?
Full Disclosure - I don't know spam. I have never sent spam. I don't like spam.
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
to work in Saudi Arabia, and after some thought, elected not to do so. I spent some time there during a military stint, and had the opportunity to interact with a number of Saudis (in the medical field, which is what I would have been doing there).
I discussed the job possibility with my wife (the money was very, very good), but her life would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in that country. Women there (particularly foreign, christian women) do NOT have the same rights as men. Among other things, you can be detained by the religious police (different from the regular police) if you are a female out in public, not accompanied by at least one male relative. Not wearing an abayah (female headgear) in public is asking for trouble.
I should point out that lots of westerners live in walled compounds, so you don't really have to interact with the regular population if you don't really want to... but who wants to be cooped up in a walled compound for a year or two? The security we had at our military base was ridiculous (and necessary), and the compounds did not have the same level of security. Remember those car bomb attacks in Riyadh last year? They wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance at our military compound... that's the kind of security I'm talking about.
It's a very different culture, and a tough environment to walk into as a freedom-loving american... despite the excellent cash compensation. You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest. Saudi justice is not american justice (in court, if it's a muslim's word against a christian's word, the christian can lose automatically) You're NOT a citizen there, and if you forget that detail, you can get yourself in serious trouble.
Good money, and I'm sure they could use a few geeks... but know what you're getting yourself into. Lots of TCNs (third country nationals) work there... Britts, French, etc, and some of them seemed to like it... but it wasn't for me.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The 'fact', and those websites, refer to the Saudi geeks, not to the people in general or their leaders. Perhaps the Saudi geeks are indeed like us, in the sense that they tend to be more openminded, better educated, more tolerant, and less dogmatic in their religions than the general populace. Instead of spending time on the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International websites, you may find it worthwhile to try and get to know some Saudi's, so you can form an opinion firsthand.
Also don't forget that it isn't very long ago when people in western civilisations thought of women in much the same way as certain Muslim zealots do.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Saudi geeks drink tea
Dude, have you tried Arab coffee?
They serve it in a thimble and it will keep you wired all day.
That's true, although there they are only concerned about enforcing that females faces never get shown and several other religious nonsense.
Saudi Arabia is probably the most fundamentalist contry in the world (followed closely by the USA), and you better wish to never have your ass sitting there.
Roblimo may be happy to see all that hunks in long cloths, no underpants and big mustaches, but he's probably ignorant enough to avoid looking at the obvious big picture: none really criticizes saudis because they:
detain the world's biggest oil reserves and
have mecca and medina, the muslims holy cities on their territory. Iin other words, anyone who messes with Saudi Arabia would spawn a jihad (holy war) made by all muslims in world against himself.
Saudi Arabia imposes a strong censorship, with a big firewall/proxy blocking them to access almost all relevant and independent news sources overseas. I wouldn't be surprised that most "geek" websites are blocked there.
Some people even think the 9/11 attacks were produced by Saudis, despite the Bush administration propaganda against OB Laden (which is saudi too).
The saudi royal family is the most screwed one in the world, read this book to check how things work there.
I don't have anything against anyone specifically in Saudi Arabia (although they smell badly) or muslims culture, I have even met with some very nice people from there, but the fact is that the country is very screwed and it is quite hard to believe they can even hold a middle class to develop the country, and it's almost impossible to imagine a geek culture running there.
Damn right - most Europeans have a REALLY hard time coming to terms with the American bible-thumping right wing. That's why we're never really sure if you're civilised or not - I mean, what the fuck are Bush's "faith based initiatives" doing in a country with a supposed strict segregation of church and state? The French are taking a lot of heat over their banning of school-worn hijabs, but it seems entirely consistent with their constitution to me.
That was classic intercourse!
I guess I'll be blowing some karma on this one.
The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.
The fight against nuclear proliferation is being lost, but at least we (Americans, I guess I should say) have some protection from the difficulties associated with targeting long range missles.
Saudi Arabia is an ally, and I don't want to run them down. But they're an ally that doesn't have a lot of ability to control its technology and funds. Pakistan is in the same category. These countries are allies, but there are people with high positions in the militaries and intelligence services of both countries that are very hostile to the US.
The standard geek way of looking at space technology is either naive or deliberately ignores some basic facts. It's military technology.
The space race with Russia was not undertaken to beam cool pictures of guys walking on the moon to the folks at home. It was because we felt we had to be better at building ICBMs and cruise missles than the Russians.
Our skill with satellites gives us intelligence and the ability to coordinate our forces on the ground, and to target our weapons much more precisely.
That's what this stuff is really for. Bush knows it, the Saudis know it, the Pakistanis know it, the Russians know it, and the EU knows it.
The HST is amazingly cool. The mars rover is incredible. They do spend some money on pure science. I'm glad they do.
But if you look at space technology purely as geeky goodness, and not as (at the very least) dual-use military technology, then you aren't looking at the space program in a realistic way.
And for the record, under Saudi law RobLimo could have been decapitated for pulling up that porn while he was on Saudi soil. The government looks the other way when Westerners do stuff like that, but it is the law.
The fact that he pulled up the porn under those circumstances, to check the filter, makes me wonder about how well he understands the people he was covering.
I dont even want to comment on how many camel jokes i read in that list of posts, I'm not offended but to be quite frank you are playing up to a stereotype of ignorance.
Saudi geeks are much like any other geeks, religion is not a factor in being a geek, culture is not a factor in being a geek, just a love of what you do and in the case of computer geeks it's computers.
Having lived in saudi for the first 18 years of my life before going away to university I'd say that saudi geeks are the same as they are anywhere. if anythign the "restrictive" society leads more people to be introversive and there are more people that spend far too much time in front of computer screens, there are also a surprising number of women that go on to do degrees in computing, which one can assume is and extension of their geekiness.
I've seen geeks around the world and they are the same, we dont ride camels to work, or flying carpets, we don't have hot and cold running oil.
In the city I live in there are entire shopping malls dedicated to selling computer parts, every where you go you are hassled by people who are trying to sell you pirated software. computers are an enourtmous thing here, because there is nothing else to do. some people use their computers to play games, some people use them to mess around with photos, some use them to hack about with code, some just spend hours surfing the net and talking to people that they normally wouldn't be able to talk to in person due to the restrictions of the society (mainly the opposite sex, regardless of which sex they are, there is little intermingling for most people but some are more liberated.)
anyway it's nice to see that everyone is so openminded and such and that being at the frontiers of counter culture you aren't swayed by stereo types...
If you go downtown in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia you'll be suprised to see more Koreans, Bangladeshis, and Indians, who've been imported for menial labor, than native Saudis. I would be more interested in knowing what sort of geek community these people had than a bunch of rich boy Saudis.
In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.
RTFA.
One of the things that Saudi geeks are apparently actively discussing (privately) is how software development work makes it possible for women to work without incurring the wrath of fundamentalist Muslims. Sure, that's mainly because they can work from home so the fundamentalists never see them, but the point is that these Islamic geeks in Saudi Arabia are actively considering how they can utilize technology to allow women to work. Their goal is to exploit an untapped resource, but even if they're underpaid and hidden from sight, working women will have a new power and level of influence they've not had before -- and these geeks don't see any problem with that.
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Or, in this case, hacking out more code.
It's this sort of understated change that ultimately changes whole cultures. It's also precisely what a lot of the radicals are afraid of and can not stop, no matter how many car bombs they detonate.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Yes, people are the same, but culture is what differentiates them.
That said, my first hand observations show that the culture of a society directly influences the psychology of a people. And the psychology of a people, for lack of a better term, is who they "are".
Here's a really long in-depth article by a man who spent some time in the kingdom mentoring some newspaper reporters. Some very interesting views.
Our skin is usually darker and our hair is usually black.
Seriously now, what is there to be different from? I'm an arabian who has been running linux since 1997, own a collection of star trek and star wars DVDs, build my own computer, read slashdot regulary, own a Palm T|T, hate MS, love open source, fascinated by space and science research, got my BS degree from a respectible american school, and on top of that does not agree with what happened in Sep/11.
Why is being an arabian muslim makes me any different than any geek anywhere else in the world?
I've lived in the Middle East for six years. I was born and taught to not believe in any form of racism. Today, I have a significant loathing of the Middle East and Arabs in particular. This wasn't 'rubbed off' on me by other Americans but from simple observation of the things they did.
I watched our US embassy burn when attached by hundreds of protesters screaming "Death to America!" (Murt al-Amrika), had to drive my car over the letters "USA" painted in the streets (they feel its a slam to drive over the flag or name of a country), watched them spraypaint my children's school with the same messages and attack westerners in the streets that 'looked' American.
They are so pinned down by their dictators that any excuse to blow off steam turns into a lynching party.
As far as geeks are concerned, it was the UK that brought in the brains to establish the internet there-- not arabs. When it was fully up and running, they fired the foreigners and sent them back. Our internet service was shit for months until they brought back some europeans to unscrew it.
You can't have a true geek who is more concerned with the death of Israel (the only middle eastern country that actually produces anything other than oil) and opressing women.