Slashdot Mirror
Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us?
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
Perhaps this tendency is what causes geeks to be more or less similar in that we tend to care more about our field(s) of choice than things like government propaganda. Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe. Besides, if you give in to stupid petty hatreds, you might miss something that some member of one of those social groups has to say about computers, or astronomy, or what have you.
One thing that comes back to me time and time again is that people all over the world have the same potential. One thing that has led me to that conclusion is geekdom. Racism or most other -isms would just get in the way.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why wouldn't they be "just like us"?
think it would be great if we all actually *did* get along just once. If geeks can help that, so much the better!
C|N>K
Save for the fact that they treat women like lesser beings that have next to no rights...
When you can actually post a story about perceived differences it only goes to show that you harbor some sort of mentality which seperates you from the next man/geek whatever.
The essence of this topic is that we are all human beings besides different culture, attitudes and religions. When someone sits at a keyboard the way they use it is going to be most likely the same way you use yours; key layout may be different but they are still using their fingers to do the typing.
A geek is a geek is a geek. Before computers geeks existed and after they will exist, all over the world. Maybe Slashdot should concentrate more on that fact than the differences between people who aren't at all different in any respect when it comes to "geek" attitude and really Slashdot as a forum is really starting to become nothing but a troll board for half witted comics and "geek" sideliners; none of which are funny or know what they are talking about.
Can we get back to News for Nerds, Stuff that matters.?
Bad example. Natalie Portman (a.k.a. Natalie Hershlag) was born in Israel and would therefore be considered a monkey and/or pig.
Why restrict it to geeks in the first place...
The owls are not what they seem
Us? So what's us? I thought this is somehow international here...
Unlike us, because we have a solid middle-class with kids that can afford to be geeks. Geeks whom may surf for porn, express their political opinion and whear stuff people are wearing on MTV.
Where's that free, liberal solid middle-class in SA?
Roblimo's article highlight -perhaps inadvertently- the important and profound differences between the open source and free software communities. While these communities collaborate as a practical matter, and may need each other for their survival, one is political and principled, the other pragmatic and concerned overall with technological imperatives.
So is there a problem with this? I believe there is. You see, Microsoft, or any other software development house, can afford to optimize its development methodology or even start from scratch a la Apple, if it really became all that self-evident to them that they were technically and financially failing. So one of two things can happen:
1) if they throw enough money at the problem, they will match our technical achivements. Apple started from scratch and has produced a decent OS built on top of BSD/Darwin/Mach. So it is doable.
2) They do not match our technical achiviements. Yet at the end of the day, if the only thing we care about is having an open source operating system regardless of whether it advances the cause of freedom, then the labor of love of all these years will seem a little less meaningful to many of us. To me, it will be all seem pretty hollow.
And here's where I have a problem with Roblimo's articles. He does not question the irony that the Saudy monarchy is using free software to exercise censorship and control. Even if some of can be circumvented, it is perversed to those that believe in Free Software to see this happen. And in respecting the freedom of the license, we must allow it, but we should call oppression by its name when we come across it and he did not have the guts to do it.
He could have looked for hactivists in Saudi Arabia to see what tools they were using and how they were furthering the cause of freedom. He could have spoken to dissidents, but he didin't. It's easy to stay at a comfy hotel and write from the sidelines. It's easier to be an expectator paying lipservice to free softaware than to stand up for what free softare actually represents.
In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Isn't geekness just a culture where people worship technology. And from my experience they are very conservative in their way.
so there is no fundamental difference in my eyes and especially no cultural gap for the saudis.
What are "we" like?
Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist? Arabs aren't fucking aliens. It reminds me of the Chris Rock joke (paraphrased):
When Collin Powel considered running for president, all the white people mentioned that "He speaks so well. He speaks so well". How the fuck is he supposed to speak? "Ima be pres-o-dent!"
geez.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
This smacks of something out of a teen girls magazine!
Are Muslim field hockey players just like us other girls?
GAH!
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
You think living with a woman that doesn't want to be with you would be fun? Hell would be like a holiday camp after that.
Just pointing out the differences and showing how worthless Arabs are in addition to being a waste of natural resources.
Maybe after ~3000 of them are murdered in cold blood I might give a damn enough to donate an old log of shit. But until then fuckem, they deserve every horror and attrocity that comes their way along with every stereotype.
Damn Camelhumper.
I doubt this is true. The same love for computers and tech? Probably. But this doesn't make them "the same". I really doubt that many Saudi Geeks would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have.
There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.
This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.
The Saudis, at least the people in charge, are like the Taliban with gold Rolexes.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It's not just geeks. It's not just USA and Saudi-Arabia.
Physiologically people are quite the same. Some have folds in their eyes, some have lost pigment from their skin and some have fat in different places. These are only cosmetical differences. Inside we're all the same.
If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'll see that the bottom layers are physiological, safety, and love. These are what every person in the world wants. They don't want to sit in the cold, they don't want to be hungry and they don't want to be afraid. (Yet some are.) And people want love and want to love.
The only substantial difference between different nations is due to culture. Some are born in conservative countries, some in liberal. Others live in religious areas, others have secular rule. Yet despite this, people still practice arts, science, whatever. You have geeks in Saudi-Arabia and deeply religious people in USA.
Whatever group of people you look, you'll find innovative people there. I recently received a revelation about this subject while reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. (Excellent book, recommended). His examples showed how people have adapted to all sorts of environments and made the best use of available resources. If this does not restore your faith in mankind, nothing will.
It is true that there is a deep cultural divide between the Western world and the countries of the East, and I don't see the current political situation to lessen the situation at all. However, this is mostly due to ignorance. If you see two small children playing with toys, do you care if one of them is a Jew and another one an Arab? Do the children care? No.
If Mr. Bush had met Mr. Hussein in a neutral and safe environment before the war, would they have fought with their bare fists. Probably not. Their nations fought one another, perhaps even their ideologies. But the people themselves... you can hardly ever find a good reason to strike at your fellow man. (This teaching, it would seem, lies at the heart of every religion. Sadly it is not observed very often.)
The only way to fight this is to get rid of the prejudice and the fear. If you can, travel to different countries and try to see beneath the surface. People are the same, even in France. Try to learn about different cultures. If you can't spare the money, go to http://www.wikipedia.org/ and read about the different achievements of cultures both long gone and present. Read about their times of glory and downfall. Go to a library and read a book. (Once again I recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel".
I'd like to end this rant with a quote from Charlie Chaplin. At the end of "The Dictator," the Jewish barber (who looks like Adolf Hynkel) gives a rather touching speech about universal harmony. (Emphasis mine.)
"I'm sorry but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible; Jew, Gentile, black men, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others' happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls; has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these things cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all."
[ Antti Rasinen ]
Hello, are you stupid? Grandparent was noting that the Arabs would be racist to Natalie, not claiming any racist feeling of his own.
And he's right.
Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming.
....
I know of many geeks who are not single. For the rest, it is the society/media that glamorizes football jocks and the thugs these days over people who are in the field of science/technology
In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Please. Most American geeks tend not to be white-supremacists or anything like that because modern American culture abhors that kind of thinking. You won't find any kind of "racist" anywhere, unless you look very hard.
On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of. Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any Indian == bad job stealer).
A couple years ago, there was an article about a fiber-optic link around Africa. I was shocked when I read the comments. People were pissed, like it was some kind of a waste (even though it was being done by African countries expecting to make a profit). The racist comments in that thread were beyond the pail.
Geeks have just as much capacity for ugliness as anyone else. I'm willing to bet that "geeks" in SA have the same sort of opinions on religious diversity, women's rights, etc that most of the country does, which is pretty bad.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Most people are just people trying to live their lives, with the nutbag assholes being in the vast minority. Unfortunately it doesn't take many nutbag assholes to ruin the image of everyone else.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Better than GW Bush?
Better than you write, that's for sure.
Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist?
No, ding-a-ling. Islam's got it's own thing going on and Saudi Arabia is where it comes from. Get a clue - not everyone thinks like you do.
It's not what you don't know. It's what you don't know you don't know that's overwhelming.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
When people get mad at foreigners for "taking their jobs away", it's not racism - it's economics. People get just as mad when the foreigners are of the same race. It's rational competition. Even though it's wrong. People should be mad at their fellow countrymen, who run the corporations that offshore their jobs. Those suits get subsidized every which way to develop their corporations, then break the system that supports them by sending the labor dollar into an unconnected economy overseas. Geeks should see the light better than their failed predecessors in the car, steel and other uneducated industries, and rein in the corporations that are squandering their civilization for an unsustainable fast buck.
--
make install -not war
There are probably people in Norway who believe things that would disgust you as well as me
;)
Ja! Not imprisoning kids for fifteen years for cracking some silly protection system, having politicians who take home a reasonable salary and have no commercial interests and many other cultural idiosyncracies that may seem odd to a US citizen.
But seriously,intelligence depends on a willingness to think for oneself. It should be no surprise that it is these people who are least constrained by the arbitary beliefs of their culture.
Smart people have more in common with smart people wherever they are from than with the stupid people next door.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
(generally, $120,000 and up, plus signing bonus.)
Actually, it was more than that.
Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand, but Americans are extremely fond of speaking their minds... both in private, and public. In America, if I wanted to walk around in front of a catholic church with a blood-drenched picture of the pope, accusing him of horrible crimes, I could do it (not that I would, but you get the idea). In Saudi Arabia, that could get you beheaded.
I would not want to force my wife to wear something she didn't agree with, particularly something that is required by a religion we don't practice, that ostensibly puts her in a subservient position. I consider women to be my equal in virtually everything, excepting perhaps physical size and strength. I have a problem with subjecting my wife to possible humiliation, interrogation, and virtual imprisonment just to make a few bucks.
Judging by the reaction of muslims when their women are prohibited from wearing veils in schools and drivers license photographs, it's obvious you can appreciate my point. You don't like being forced, and neither do I.
As for being courteous and polite, that goes both ways... you could expect my politeness to end, with extreme prejudice, the moment some muttawa religious policeman tried to strike my wife with his stick because he could see skin above her ankles in public. All cultural differences aside, if you strike a man's wife in front of him, you'd better be prepared for the consequences, whether you're Saudi or American.
Call me an ugly american if you want, but I have a problem with asking my wife to live in an environment like that, even for a year or two... I simply have too much respect for her.
Some things are more important than money.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I don't envy the position of women in Saudi Arabia, but I'm informed enough to know that it's primarily a cultural, not religious situation.
Funny isn't it? Enslave a man and it's a crime against humanity. Enslave a woman and it's cultural.
You won't find very many women in the world so blase over such a "cultural" difference.
Uh, fighting in a workplace is a good way to get yourself fired, regardless of what started the fight. No one owes you a job, and the best way to stay employed is to do your job instead of getting into heated conversations about politics.
> Arabs don't hate Jews, they hate Israel.
Well, it's nice to know that there aren't any Arabs who hate Jews. I'll sleep a lot better now that I know such an authority as yourself has declared the Arab world free of any such sentiments.
Actually, of course, if you look at any semi-reputable news organization (and by this I mean some news organizations in Europe, because anything in the US, Israel, or most of the Arab world is just organized propoganda) the prejudice of Arabs against Jews, and Jews against Arabs, is quite marked. And equally unfortunate (and unfair) on both sides.
> A racist state set up by terrorists and supported by racists.
There are elements of truth and falsehood in this, as in most statements that are made by fanatics. With most fanatics, the elements of falsehood greatly outweigh the elements of truth. I won't presume to judge in this particular case.
I also except statements made by people like Rush Limbaugh, which, as often as not, actually contain no element of truth what so ever. ("Styrofoam is biodegradable!")
> EVERYONE should hate Israel, just as they shouldn't hate Jews.
I'm always delighted to be told who to hate.
However, I in general like to not actually hate anyone. I know this makes me a lousy American, as well as someone committing the fundamental solicism of disagreeing with you, Mr. Partridge, but I've always found that hating tendes to lead to suffering. On both sides.
But hey, if that's what you're looking for, you have fun.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
I'm white and I don't find Chris Rock racist. I find him incredibly funny and think he has some touchingly bitter (and intelligent) comments on society. He makes fun of what he sees as stupid. Race is often used to drive the point home or construct a joke. But race is not his target, stupidity and intollerence are (except when occasionally poking gentle fun).
The quote in the parent comment was in regards to a white person's view of Colin Powell. He picked up on a news article that included the revelation that Powell "speaks so well". He pointed out that was retarded and then he made fun of what those people would expect a black president to sound like based on their comments:
"Ima be pres-o-dent"
In the same routine, goes on to point out that such stereotypes aren't uniquely held by white people - nor that they aren't without cause. His own definition of the term "nigger" describes the black minority who are destructive, have bad priorities, refuse to grow up and who keep setting back society. He made fun of it by pointing out that not knowing anything seems to be thought of as cool by some:
"Shit.. I don't know man. What you wanna know that shit for? I don't need no learnin'. I don't need no readin'. But lemme axe you this.. lemme axe you this.. can you kick *my* ass?"
He's entirely correct about these priorities being absurd and self-destructive in many youths - both black and white. Nobody's going to help society if all they worry about is beating each other up.
Fortunetly they have been kept in check by our constitution
Until now.
The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.
I'm not that crazy about powerful fundamentalist groups in any country having control over sophisticated weaponry - the United States included.
Yeah, we have our religious zealots and so do the Saudis, but there's one really BIG difference. *Our* religious zealots blow up abortion clinics and shoot doctors one by one; *their* religious zealots hijack planes and fly them into buildings. There's not a huge amount of difference between the two flavors of zealotry, but *our* zealots live in a country where they're not allowed to get away with nearly as much violence. Saudi society has embraced Wahabbism, the particularly violent flavor of Islam, and they make Operation Rescue look like a bunch of hippie pacifists.