To Recertify, or Not Recertify?

mckeefarley asks: "What is an out-of-work networking guy to do? Almost three years ago I worked for a systems integration company as a Senior Network Technician (with the help of an A+ cert). Two years and many certifications, later: "I am five months away from the expiration of my CCNP/DP and I question whether I should even spend the money to recertify." Would you spend the time and money to recertify, when every cent may count, and all of those pieces of paper still might not get you a job?

"The real fun and excitement was in the engineering department, and I was told the sure way in was to get my CCNA. Well I got my Sybex book, and with the help of our small lab (two Cisco routers and a catalyst switch) I received my CCNA with a [score over 90].

Thrilled as I was, the engineering department was taking some hits, and I couldn't get in. Instead of remaining stagnant I took it on myself to get my CCDA, which I got a month later. Engineering department still going down, me still wanting to rise, I looked for something else. At about this time my company was trying to get a contract working with Nortel routers and switches. 'This is my chance!', I proclaimed.

One and a half months later I was a NNCSS (Nortel Networks Certified Support Specialist), but then contract fell through. The engineering department was taking BIG hits (as was the rest of the networking industry), but I was determined. We only had one CCNP in the company, and my goal was set. With the help of the lab, and some determination, after three months I became a CCNP and CCDP.

Did I get in the engineering department?

Nope.

Did I give up?

Nope.

I got my CCIE study guide, and was all ready to rent time at a major Cisco lab at The University of Colorado, in Boulder (I am not even sure that they have this lab anymore). A month later there were two people left in the engineering department, and then was laid off.

After six months of unemployment checks and sending resumes, I gave up and decided to go back to school and do some independent consulting for some small businesses in the Denver metro area. Now, I am again looking for a full time job, and I am dealing with the same problems that I dealt with, two years ago.

I am happy to admit that all my hands on Cisco experience have not been in a production environment. I understand that the difference between the lab and the real stuff is huge. But the certs didn't, and still don't even get my foot in the door. My resume has been critiqued by many people, and is in tip-top shape. I do have experience on Gateways (Nomadix) and many switches (SMC) and have worked on some MDU engineering projects.

Any suggestions?"

Comments

If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[tjstork]

One C/S degree > many certifications, and probably cheaper over the lifetime.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[nial-in-a-box]

I am currently a college student, and I am inclined to agree that a CS degree is a good thing to have if you want to work in that industry. I've often heard that while more qualifications, such as a masters degree, can make you more attractive for some positions, they can also make you much less attractive. I believe that this is because it is assumed that you will expect more money for your position, or something like that. I think it would be interesting to see how many people with a Master's of CS are out of work versus those who have a "lesser" degree. Ultimately, I really don't think there is any particular standard requirement across the field. I hear a lot from recent grads here, and it seems that some places just want certs, some places just want a CS degree, some places just require any bachelor's degree and a demonstrated proficiency at what you do, and some require some combination of these. I currently have an internship with a database consulting firm. I was pretty lucky to land it, and I was only able to do so because I was working for one of their employees who sold her company to them. They are willing to pay to train me, but won't bring me on full time until I complete my bachelor's degree. On the flip side, they have someone working for them who is almost complete with a Master's of CS who is perhaps not the most qualified. This person does know their stuff, but they are not so good with databases. My employers seem inclined only to keep them around because they are willing to do the "bitch work." The thing with the database field, however, is that most learning in this field requires hands on work. I think IT is the same, as most colleges that do have CS programs do not directly teach much IT nor database courses. By having this internship, and through my personal experience with computers, I will learn infinitely more about small-to-medium business IT and database development than I will through my college education.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[larry bagina]

Actually, George W Bush has tried persuading the ChiComms to let their currency float. They won't (can't) because their banks are extremely fucked up. That giant sucking sounds would be chinese money leaving the country for American and European banks, causing the chinese bankin system to collapse overnight.

Re:If you don't have a C/S degree, get one

[Trevin]

I would have to disagree with your disagreement; I think things are slightly different in CS than EE. I've been hunting jobs for the last couple of years, and the vast majority of them want N years of work experience with X language on Y systems using Z tools. The degree requirement is usually there, but not as often as the experience requirement.

Let's look, for example, at the first five companies listed in my daily Dice search:

• 3+ years of specific recent experience in HRMS version 8.x, in-depth knowledge of PeopleTools, PeopleCode and SQR. Strong knowledge of SQL a plus. Bachelor's degree or equivalent education and experience.
• Current or very recent experience at major mortgage lending institutions; Software Development P.M. Experience. No mention of a degree.
• BS degree and 8-12 years engineering experience, including Quality Engineering, and direct experience with medical device or other FDA regulated environment. Also required is knowledge and experience with electromechanical and software intensive devices.
• Must have at lease 5-10 years of experience in Mentoring and true ETL work. Experience with Cognos validating catalogs, cubes and customizing the visualization. No mention of a degree.
• At least 3 years of experience required. Extensive experience with IBM 30xx mainframe using MVS/JES2 operating system environment. Knowledge of the CA-7 job scheduling and CA-1 tape management subsystems. Strong operations background in JCL, CICS, VTAM, TSO, ISPF, and SDSF. No mention of a degree.

Add just one more generality: nearly every single job listing I've seen for gaming companies has a line like "You must have over 2 Years Video Game Programming Experience and some strong titles. This position is only for experienced video game professionals."

With requirements like these, it seems impossible to get a job unless you've already worked there before.

I'd say yes

[gtrubetskoy]

Even though I personally hold no single certification (and back when I was in a position to hire I tended to actually consider them a nagative, especially the low end ones), one that I've always seriously considered was CCIE. With a CCIE you have a pretty chance of getting a job even in this lousy market.

Other than that, no jobs means no jobs - I know quite a few people that having lost their job started builg up their accreditation portfolio to no avail. But the silverlining is that when the job market tunrs around (and it has not yet AFAIC), those with more credentials will be much better off.

Educational expenses deductible

[chopkins1]

Remember that expenses for education to get yourself re-employed (books, classes, certification testing, etc.) are all tax deductible.

Recently I was unemployed (given I already have a 4-yr degree and 10+ years of experience) and decided to re-up my MCSE. I spent $7000 and 2-weeks to go to one of the many MCSE bootcamps (http://www.intenseschool.com). I got a job immediately following signing up for the class and the company paid me while in class.

The kicker here is we recently went to the family CPA and he said all $7000 was tax deductible plus all the materials needed to complete any certification.

Just my $.02. Good Luck

Re:Pack your bags...

[DriceX]

They speak english. Yes you will see.

Dupe, or comment promotion? You decide...

[utahjazz]

This episode of Ask Slashdot brought to you by this (Score: 1) comment

Re:Hang in there..

[n4vu]

I have to view certifications as neutral. While reviewing thousands of resumes in the course of screening hundreds of candidates for clients over the past three (lean) years, one trend is clear: employers are hiring for work history, not certifications. I even had one manager tell me not to bother sending him anyone with more certificates than years of experience.

People who have the work experience might better take the time they would have spent cramming for certs, and spend it in developing a really door-opening resume, full of accomplishments, as opposed to just job descriptions.

The question a hiring manager tries to answer in the first 20 seconds of viewing a resume is, "what can this person do for me," not "what were this person's job descriptions."

Re:Pack your bags...

[univgeek]

This is bull-shit, please point to some references. All you need to work in India, is a letter of invitation from a company and a work visa. Sure you can't come in on a tourist visa and work. But it is much easier to get a work visa in India than in the USA.

http://www.indianslivingabroad.com/resources/vis a- guide.asp for guidelines.

Re:Don't fool yourself

[nelsonal]

Exchange rates move a little each time that $8k salary is paid, as well as everytime you buy a Nokia phone, or other foreign made product. In the US we have (for the past 30 or 40 years) bought significantly more than we exported, but that is only half the story, a big part of our imports are oil related. What has kept things in balance (and even driven the dollar up) is that foreigners have generally wanted to invest in our financial products (equities, Treasury and Corporate debt, physical plants) this is what economists call the capital account, and has run a surplus (roughly balancing with the current accout deficit) until very recently after the bubble popped that cut some investment, but over the past year or so, money has been moving to europe because interest rates were significantly higher. The exception to this is Asian exporting countries that wish to prolong their export growth, who have been buying financial products here (mostly Treasury debt) if they stop, the dollar will fall significantly (bringing those $25k salaries a whole lot closer to the $8k salary (in dollar terms).
Business follows things in trends, and just like railroads, the internet, Japan, and many other huge changes, there will be significant production developed there, but right now it is a bubble and it will pop eventually. The good news is that this will significantly reduce the excitemet assocated with India, the bad news is that something like 90% of the investmet in a bubble change occurs after it pops (just at a much slower rate).

Re:well, since you don't have anything else to do.

[ScottSpeaks!]

After 10 months unemployed, I managed to get hired for a job that required A+ certification (which I don't have, as I've never bothered getting certs) on the strength of my bachelors in CS, my 15+ years of experience, and my answers to several "how would you handle this?" questions. But I still had to promise during the interview that I would take the A+ test and pass it, within 6 months of hire. I stifled a sarcastic "Would you like to take the GED test, too?" and simply assured them it would not be a problem.

But I won't be putting this cert on my resume (I don't intend to stay here any longer than I have to), for the same reason I don't mention that I was vice president of the senior class in high school: it wouldn't impress the kinds of people I want to work for, and it would distract from my actual qualifications.

Re:Only one problem with that.....

[be-fan]

Please don't spread FUD.

Employment Visas are granted to those with an employment letter from an Indian company.

Re:Dupe, or comment promotion? You decide...

[mckeefarley]

Sorry you took offense, but this question has been troubling me for some weeks now, and I didn't get many responses to the original post, so I felt it needed a little more exposure. Now I can look over all these responses and make a more educated decision. Thanks Slashdot surfers! :)

Re:You're wrong

[ciggieposeur]

But don't speak for all CS majors; this one is doing just fine.

My work history is similar. I co-op'd in 05/99, graduated in 05/00, and became a *very good* developer since then inside IBM. I had consistent raises, and was making 50% more than my starting salary and kept working hard right on through the DotBomb as my friends exhausted their unemployment; my final salary was equivalent to a ChemE with twice my work experience (I know one, we compared). My layoff was due entirely to a personal beef with my last micro-manager. I had two other managers ready to pick me back up but I decided to accept the generous severance package. I know I could get another (good) job with my skillset, and could probably even last a good 10-15 years.

But.

Let's talk about what grown-up industries do, like mechanical, civil, and chemical engineering. Student chapters exist at all the universities, *big* corporations commit lots of money not only on college recruiting but also internships, luncheons, and raising awareness. At my local school for ChemE, $20 dues in AIChE gets you access to 12 luncheons/year with some really big names. You get your money back on the first meal, actually. Then there are several national design competitions that you can get to for about $100+food (the corporate sponsors cover the hotel, dues, and most of the flight). And inside the school, there's always a strong bond between upperclass students tutoring the freshman/sophmores.

All this is for *undergraduate students* who can still drop out anytime! I've *never* seen that kind of attention devoted to the fields of software design, development, or engineering. Nor have any of my Old Skool IBM friends. Some were around doing real work on the mainframes through the 80's, others have worked with HP and Sun. (No DECers alas.)

To continue though, the grown-up industries have annual salary surveys, work satisfaction reports, employer critiques, and research opportunities galore. Computer Science has ACM (which has been *dead* on most of the campuses I've been to), a big taboo inside the industry for discussing wages, terrible overtime compensation, and hardly any big-dollar *software* research outside the games sub-industry, Los Alamos, and a handful of universities. (Hardware research is still funded, but those are Computer Engineering/Electrical Engineering degrees.)

This is what I mean by grown-up industry. If you lost your job right now, you'd be tossed into a pool of business and communications majors looking for work, and you'd really have no place to start in the well-established job search circles. Your local unemployment office might not even have a job title that matches your skills. Software architect? Software engineer? Network troubleshooter? System administrator? When you apply for a job, your technical skills would have to match *very closely* to it's listed requirements to get an interview. And I do mean CLOSE: like "JSP" instead of "JavaServer Pages" because it's a wildcard filter. And you can ask your friends for help, but between July and December no one is hiring full-time so networking won't get you far.

OTOH, if my brother (who is a ChemE) lost his job, he would have places to go. Employers routinely post their engineering positions to AIChE's site, the unemployment office would know how to place him, and if all else fails he could just apply for those government positions that require a Professional Engineering license. (Note: license, not certification: it takes five years understudy and a battery of tests to get it.)

I don't see Computer Science ever reaching this point. Which is a real shame, because there's plenty for us to do before we have Star Trek-like AI. Instead, companies are abandoning the CS major via outsourcing just at the moment they should be pushing for it to get past adolescence. We could see a university program offer students a rigorous education in creating quality production-ready code ("Software Engineering") in any lan