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To Recertify, or Not Recertify?
"The real fun and excitement was in the engineering department, and I was told the sure way in was to get my CCNA. Well I got my Sybex book, and with the help of our small lab (two Cisco routers and a catalyst switch) I received my CCNA with a [score over 90].
Thrilled as I was, the engineering department was taking some hits, and I couldn't get in. Instead of remaining stagnant I took it on myself to get my CCDA, which I got a month later. Engineering department still going down, me still wanting to rise, I looked for something else. At about this time my company was trying to get a contract working with Nortel routers and switches. 'This is my chance!', I proclaimed.
One and a half months later I was a NNCSS (Nortel Networks Certified Support Specialist), but then contract fell through. The engineering department was taking BIG hits (as was the rest of the networking industry), but I was determined. We only had one CCNP in the company, and my goal was set. With the help of the lab, and some determination, after three months I became a CCNP and CCDP.
Did I get in the engineering department?
Nope.
Did I give up?
Nope.
I got my CCIE study guide, and was all ready to rent time at a major Cisco lab at The University of Colorado, in Boulder (I am not even sure that they have this lab anymore). A month later there were two people left in the engineering department, and then was laid off.
After six months of unemployment checks and sending resumes, I gave up and decided to go back to school and do some independent consulting for some small businesses in the Denver metro area. Now, I am again looking for a full time job, and I am dealing with the same problems that I dealt with, two years ago.
I am happy to admit that all my hands on Cisco experience have not been in a production environment. I understand that the difference between the lab and the real stuff is huge. But the certs didn't, and still don't even get my foot in the door. My resume has been critiqued by many people, and is in tip-top shape. I do have experience on Gateways (Nomadix) and many switches (SMC) and have worked on some MDU engineering projects.
Any suggestions?"
One C/S degree > many certifications, and probably cheaper over the lifetime.
This is my sig.
Learn Hindi and move to Delhi. That's probably a better use of your time.
Once your foot is sufficiently in the door, certifications mean little or nothing to hiring companies.
Don't waste your money.
Many jobs nowadays want X years of experience in lieu of Y certifications or Z years of schooling. A lot of IT management smartened up when they certification-mills pumped out losers with some theoretical knowledge but crumbled under practical pressure. You can thank the Dot-Bomb for that. The money-motivated didn't want to spend the time in school to learn the trade lest they get left behind so certification-mills filled a need: impatient people that wanted to make lots of money in the "new economy".
Thankfully a lot of those that were in it only for the money are unemployed (no insult to the submitter intended) or selling crap. Of course different parts of the world and different companies have varying policies so I have to stress YMMV!
Trolling is a art,
1. Post certifications and work-related experiences on a front page slashdot article, along with a plea for help.
2. ???
3. Profit!
11*43+456^2
During my 11 month unemployment spree I could say one thing for sure. My certs didn't mean shit in the workplace. People just wanted on the job experience, same thing with formal education. The same questions always prevailed, "Do you have any work experience?" I won't bash certs that badly as my curent workplace is offering to fully certify my ass for free... Now, final note, none of this rings true for CCIE's.
It's the future of America. I'm not really joking.
I work in a two man IT department at a factory. My pal and I realize that this is the last of the gravy train. When these jobs end because of corporate restructuring or the factory moving to Mexico we will most likely never work in the Tech industry again.
in my experience, certifications don't mean that much.
What they do mean, is that someone is booksmart enough to sit there and study the material, go in, and take a test. They don't mean the individual can actually fix anything.
In any technical job, be it mechanical or information, the fundamentals of troubleshooting and resourcefulness are far more important than any piece of paper.
i put alot more stock in good references and job experience than certs..
ALL THAT SAID THOUGH:
HR and employers are still waking up to the facts mentioned above. so no matter what the reality is with certs, the problem remains; how can you prove yourself a good technician if you can't get hired.
companies are getting better at recognizing intrinsic skill rather than going whats on a resume, but that has a long way left to go.
i didn't get any certs tho, because i refuse to pay money for something i don't need. i can do my job just fine without a piece of paper to help me along, heh.
I know you're probably not interested and I can't blame you but look into getting you Microsoft Certified Sysstems Administrator cert instead of recerting on your Cisco. Makes you more well rounded and it's 4 easy tests. Plus you already know what you're doing w/ Cisco products and your experience will count. :)
Also, don't you mean you got a 900 on the CCNA? Not a 90
This guy is way out there
To me I would think that a college degree is about the same as certifications. When I get my degree at least I won't have to come back and renew it, only maybe the occasional refresher course to keep me updated on new technology. Even then I'm hoping that my employer will at least go halfers on it with me. But don't get me wrong I'm not cutting down certifications. I would have almost gone that route rather than paying $30,000 to go to RIT (At least there would be more girls and I wouldn't be freezing my nuts off every winter). Might be cheaper in the long run?? I shall never know...
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
Consider this...when the I.T. industry makes a turn for the better (this year) what will set you apart from the thousands of other I.T. folks looking for a job? That's right..either that huge port wine stain on your melon...or certification. I honed my skills in a networked environment of over 6000 workstations, in a help desk situation. If I would have had my act together and gotten certified during that time, I would be in a much different place than I am right now. I'd say go for keeping your certification current as that will show potential employers that you follow through and that even though you've been unemployed in your chosen field, at least you're passionate enough about the work that you've kept up on certs... my2cents
Money not found! A)bort, R)etry, D)eclare Bankruptcy
But not because you think it will get you a job, it won't. The days when people were hired in IT because they carried the right bits of paper are gone and dead. These days you get hired because you're the only person available who can solve a critical issue, solve an impossible problem, or otherwise convince your potential employer that hiring you will save him money and tears.
Certification is a commodity and commodity jobs have been shipped overseas.
So, it would be better to do some research in a few prospective companies to see what kinds of essential IT skills they are short of, then go and get some practice in that area. Arm yourself with a skill an employer is actively seeking and you might get the job. One more certificate (or even a CS degree!) won't mean squat.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
The year I took studying for the 7 MCSE/W2K exams was a year I will never get back, and it's gotten me exactly nowhere. I actually had tech industry background and experience. Most of the people in my "class" didn't. The day before my appointment for test #5 of 7 was 9/11. That basically sealed our fate.
MCSE on W2K3 Server? No fucking way. Redmond can pound sand.
My suggestion: start studying nursing. They can't outsource that job yet...although the anime Roujin-Z suggests that perhaps eventual outsourcing to cyber-nurse beds might be in the cards for the future. Same with teaching. You can't dial in a teacher from Bangalore...at least not yet.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I think that tech certifications are not very useful: they have an extremely limited lifetime and are usually relatively expensive.
I strongly recommend to get non-technical certifications and titles. While an CCNE, MSCE or NZTSGREF is only valid for 2 years, a Ph.D. or Mensa membership is for life.
And both are usually much cheaper than those exams - for the Ph.D. you could get an industry sponsored topic, earning you money, experience and sometimes even patents. And Mensa membership cost just 30 (US) bucks.
And there are much more such certifications like MS or MBA in different scientific areas out there.
And it usually pays off if you have an higher academic title than your boss.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
From the sound of your plea, your certifications have done basically nothing for you thus far, so my question back at you is: what has your certification done for you?
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
Other than that, no jobs means no jobs - I know quite a few people that having lost their job started builg up their accreditation portfolio to no avail. But the silverlining is that when the job market tunrs around (and it has not yet AFAIC), those with more credentials will be much better off.
I'm sure you've heard the expression, "One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". You keep getting these certs and still fail to get the job you want. Maybe you need to pursue another type of education, another company, or another field altogether.
I wouldn't say that certs are completely without value. They sere two fundamental values. First, as a pre-screening criteria for hiring managers, they know that you have, at least, passed a minimum skills test. Second, when the decision is down between you and another person, with your resumes laying side-by-side, the certifications are going to come up as bonus points. Plus, and this is equally important, you can safely bet that the other applicant has certifications.
That said, I wouldn't get too stressed about renewing. I've yet to meet a hiring manager that has asked if a certification was still "valid".
Good luck in your search.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
Learn Hindi, get a tan, learn to appreciate the third world, hairy chicks, funky music, and move to India to where the jobs are.
Remember that expenses for education to get yourself re-employed (books, classes, certification testing, etc.) are all tax deductible.
Recently I was unemployed (given I already have a 4-yr degree and 10+ years of experience) and decided to re-up my MCSE. I spent $7000 and 2-weeks to go to one of the many MCSE bootcamps (http://www.intenseschool.com). I got a job immediately following signing up for the class and the company paid me while in class.
The kicker here is we recently went to the family CPA and he said all $7000 was tax deductible plus all the materials needed to complete any certification.
Just my $.02. Good Luck
Having a degree opens many possibilities that weren't there before, including higher-level technical management positions. Even if your future company scales back to 5 techs, they'll still need someone to manage them.
I myself would not put a high school graduate into a management position unless there were extenuating circumstances.
Look and see who is hiring what kind of people in the place you want to live. If you see something there you want to do, THEN get certified and/or qualified and do that.
Geeks get hung up on what they *want* to do. Jobs are about doing things for other people. Find out what the people want, where you want to be and do that. Anything else is insane.
Networking is down because the market is saturated, supply exceeds demand. The same is true of Mathematical Programming (what I love to do). So I do Enterprise Programming. Much less interesting, but people want/need it, so I can make a living doing it (even that used to be easier though).
If Enterprise Programming goes down the tubes (read off-shore competition), then I will find something else. That's life.
...is teaching. Break out of the rut that takes your valuable labor and converts it to ready cash for company executives that simply don't give a shit about you. You have had a great opportunity to see the world of networking from the inside. Isn't it time you passed the torch onto others?
You cheapen the value of your knowledge and time by entertaining thoughs of going back into industry. There are always going to be people in this world content to work for someone else. You can take what you know and leverage it into a new career in education. Sure, the pay's not what you would get in industry, but you will have enough extra time on your hands to start a consulting business on the side. Between your consulting income and teaching salary, you stand a strong likelihood of earning more than you did when in industry. (Plus, teaching is often an added badge of credibility to prospective clients. Ignore the adage of "Those who can, do...those who can't teach." This is the mantra of those who can't do either.)
Work smart, not hard.
Applying for a new job, OTOH... The certs imply that you have the book knowladge. But unless it is a consulting firm (where they have to "resell" you), then the certs themselves again, mean nothing. Choosing beteween someone who has worked with X product for years, and someone who has read a book and managed to pass a test, who would you choose?
This is not to say that certs in general are bad. But to some people/companies they dont mean anything. And I suppose that given otherwise identical canadates, someone who dosent care about certs would likely choose the guy with them.
One of the historical problems with certs is that they have been used as a marketing/mind share tool. Back in the day, becoming a Netware 3.x CNA was trivial. MCSE and CCNA today is the rage. Novell has "fixed" their education program, and even the one exam CNA's from 4.x on has been fairly good. But the damage was done. Today, everyone makes fun of MCSEs. And personaly, even being unemployed, I wouldnt wipe my ass with an A+ cert.
I think in your case, someone is fucking with you. Maby its just some lowly worker bees having some fun, and maby your company is just evil. But I would be looking for a way out.
No set of skills meets every employer's wants. Particularly in view of the job exporting craze that is in full swing now, being able to COMMUNICATE in grammatically correct English gets you lots of points when you're an otherwise technically overweighted person. I went from technician to tech manager at a solid financial services company in four years because I could research projects, work up a presentation for execs and directors, and lead implementation. My boss took credit for my work for a long time, but eventually she was exposed. Wanna know what my credentials were before I landed that entry-level job? I had a BA in journalism/PR, 10 years of retail management, an MCSE, and a fairly good grasp of the bash shell. Be strong technically, yes - - but show that you're more than that. It will get you attention in this day and age when so many geeks can't put together a proper sentence.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
The big reason to get any cert is because you see a series of jobs that specifically state you need the cert AND you are underqualified for the position. The certs will get your foot in the door, but your personality has to get you the job. If you're qualified, certifications don't help or hurt- they're like a mole on your back that people will be aware of only when you tell them they exist.
However, if you are targeting a company like Microsoft or Cisco for employment, get the certs! These companies are going to want to hire people that are:
- familiar with their solutions
- compentent/experienced enough for the position open
Companies this large tend to want folks who can help dogfood their tools and improve them. Additionally, dogfooding means that you save these groups plenty of cash- A microsoft tester who knows java is probably going to loose a position to a tester with an MCAD- who will in turn design and implement MS-based solutions rather than trying to evangelize some Javabeans solution.I made the cert choices I did because I wanted to be in Information Security, I looked in some books and I decided I'd mirror the certs of the authors of these texts. The only thing left that I'd like to get in terms of a certification is an MCSD, but that's only if I am trying to get employed at Microsoft. If my next job is one that will be long term and give me the flexibility, then I'm going to target a Masters degree, because really, what's the point in getting another technical certification if I will acquire the experience that should equal an MCSD?
Will I renew my certs? Probably only the CISSP. How else do you convey to people that are mystified by the shamanistic ways of Hackers that Yes, I am the guy that can help keep them out. A big fat badge on your chest that says 'CISSP' makes those who don't understand feel safe. A 'CCNA' badge? meh... networking equipment will only get easier to use- The days of the Network Engineering team are starting to fade. These guys will be blue collar and unionized in another 10 years.
Ummm... most people look at Mensa membership as an indication that you haven't come to terms with being beat up on the playground in school by kids who were dumber than you. I'd probably qualify for it, but even if it was free, and something posessed me to join, I sure as hell wouldn't put it on my resume. Every experienced employer knows that being smart is not a very good discriminator for job performance, beyond simple qualification.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I met a guy who had been working in tech for several years. He then lost his job and sent out 200 resumes. He didn't get a job and found himself competing against people with 20 years experience for jobs.
He decided to give up on tech and lent some money out to open a liquor store. Now he makes tons of money, far more than he did in programming, and the work is easy. For instance, he went to Costco, bought $900 worth of Champagne and sold it for $5000 on New Years. He's putting in an underground cofee shop just like he did in his native Lithuania. Sorry guys, tech is a graveyard right now and unless you're really good you should explore other careers. If there's another dot.com boom come back but otherwise it isn't worth it.
This query paraphrases the resurgent question in the IT world as to the relative value of technical certifications in today's market. Can anyone contest that IT/IS job market in Silicon Valley is worlds away from those in sparsely populated regions of the midwest? Bearing this in mind, surely we can't assign a universal value to any certification, so how can anyone definitively answer mckeefarley's question?
I'd like to cite a couple of cases to illustrate this point further, in case it's helpful to anyone. My cousin and I work in related IT fields and we occasionally compare notes between our respective job markets. He possesses several major tech certs, including CCNA, MSCE, CNA, A+, Network+, et al. He reports that in San Diego, the IT job market is so competitive that many employers prequire MCSE certificaiton for Level 1 Help Desk positions. A November 2003 slashdot article addressed a similar sort of brass employment strategy.
In other markets, a certain certification is assigned an unusually high value. In southwest Michigan, for example, the IBM AS/400 enjoyed great popularity for years. Regardless of how this came to be, it created a market that strongly favored certified AS/400 Professional System Administrators and certified RPG programmers, while those certified in competing UNIX platforms found the job market relatively thin.
This unpredictability has caused me to favor certifications that don't expire (especially CompTIA's) whenever possible.
First-Generation American's Job Taken By His Father
READING, PA -- Miguel Martinez, 48, who immigrated to the U.S. 30 years ago, last week lost his leather-cutting job at GST AutoLeather, Inc. to his 66-year-old father Roberto. "I came to this country in 1974 to make a better life for my family," Martinez said Monday. "But in December, they moved the factory where I've been working for 22 years down to Nuevo Laredo, Mexico. I love my father, but that damn beaner stole my job." Martinez's $18-an-hour duties will now be performed by his father for $7 a day.
I'm going to be wearing a hockey mask when I go off on everyone...
Take job that's related to your field. Any job. No matter how low the salary.
I have been on the hiring end several times, and let me tell you that nothing looks worse on your resume than not working for a significant length of time, even if you're busy working on getting more certifications.
If you can't find employment in your field, then start your own company and offer on-site network support for local businesses at a very low price. It might not earn you a lot of money, but you'll be gaining credibility as a self-directed, self-motivated go-getter and IMHO that's worth more in your resume then just piling up certifications.
Good Luck.
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Then you can decide what kind of certs your employees will need to work for you.
Also, expand your skills horizontally. That is, rather than continue to increase your specialization in one thing, learn some new skills that will compliment those you have. This will make you more valuable to prospective employers, and it will make you a better entrepeneur (if you start your own business.) So maybe instead of spending your money on new certs, spend it on a class that teaches you new skills.
Beyond that, praying that congress extends unemployment another 6 months usually works for me.
In my experience, a few years of experience plus several certifications is worth the few years of experience. I think a lot of companies are beginning to catch on to the fact that people can have a bunch of certifications and still be worthless when it comes to getting anything done. Not to berate those who have gone for certs, but they just don't translate into real world ability the way that actually doing it for a few years does. It's nice to have a few knowledge-based theories about why the network is slow as hell for everyone, but explainations generally take a back seat to getting it fixed.
The reason most large companies do like to see college on your resume is that colleges don't sit you down and throw a bunch of info about one topic at you. Most colleges construct major requirements in such a way as to produce well-rounded individuals. While art history may not help you kill the network virus that's spreading through the corporate LAN, it does help you to a certain degree with other things, like social interaction. This comes in handy when you berate the idiot who brought his infected-all-to-hell laptop into work and plugged it into the LAN without telling anyone. This is why trade schools are helping less with finding work, and why college remains a good starting point for a resume.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
The relative cost of labor overseas has very little to do with currency exchange rates. It's all to do with the cost of living, and the expected standard of living in the area. That's why you'll see call centers moving to the middle of nowhere, 'cause people there don't expect $60k/year to answer phones. They're happy with $25k or less. The reason: the standard of living is lower out there, and the cost of living out there is lower. Extrapolate that out to a third world country, and you'll see why that same thinking leads to overseas workers...they're happy with the equivalent of $8k or so.
Changing the exchange rate won't do a damned thing to stop offshoring. That's a complete red herring. The only thing that will effectively raise the price of offshoring is raising the standard of living and the cost of living in the countries that we're offshoring to. But that's hard, and won't happen quickly, so don't expect to see the economics of offshoring change anytime in the next few decades.
I have to view certifications as neutral. While reviewing thousands of resumes in the course of screening hundreds of candidates for clients over the past three (lean) years, one trend is clear: employers are hiring for work history, not certifications. I even had one manager tell me not to bother sending him anyone with more certificates than years of experience.
People who have the work experience might better take the time they would have spent cramming for certs, and spend it in developing a really door-opening resume, full of accomplishments, as opposed to just job descriptions.
The question a hiring manager tries to answer in the first 20 seconds of viewing a resume is, "what can this person do for me," not "what were this person's job descriptions."
From the time to time that I look for new jobs. One thing has become more and more important than anything else.
Conver Letters Count More Than You Think. Especially Applying Online!!!!
It gets boring writing a different one for each position, but you have to. If the advertise position doesn't give enough info, then you need to get crazy!.
I think if you took my 4 boldest cover letters (typically written after then 5th Sam Adams) during job hunts, I got responses on 3 out of 4.
Anything else, just wouldn't do.
And I mean it. Drink some beers, smoke some weed. Do whatever it takes to lift yourself up into a different state of being with the Universe, and bang out some sh$%t story as to how the company can't afford not to hire you!
Expose a little passion!
Let me let you in on something.. a certification means nothing but that you can pass a test.
I want people that have good troubleshooting skills. I dont give a rats ass if they know that the boot and system partitions of a NTFS install are named backwards because of morons at microsoft.
I dont care if they have a Cisco certification, I care that they have enough troubleshooting skills to find the correct answer with the tools they are given.
Expierience and troubleshooting skills mean 10,000% more than any worthless paper that says you know some obscure terminology and concepts that are 100% worthless in the real world.
BTW, I did go get sertified after I was hired, because the company paid for it,I let all of it lapse as over 50% of the information needed to pass a certification test is worthless. (This is MCSE, A++, N++ and Cisco... the Novell one is really worth something, but almost nobody uses novell anymore)
I have a team that can solve problems and create correct solutions 80% faster than the best that corperate has in their NOC and IT department at corperate headquarters, we are always answering questions for them and was nominated into the circle of success 2 years in a row and all members have recieved many awars for excellence.
If you come to me with expierience, I look at that, I could care less about certifications as I have found them to be worthless indicators of skill. show me what you can do, pieces of paper you bought do not impress me.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Including just casual friends. See if any of them know anyone in a company that is hiring. Doesn't need to be in the same department even. Have your friend introduce you to the guy they know in the company, then try and get that guy to talk to the person in charge of hiring for the job you want. That should at least get you an interview.
You'd be supprised who some of your friends happen to know. They probably never mentioned it since it didn't seem relivant, but if you ask you can find out.
And personal recommendations go a looooooong way. Even if people don't know that it influences their decision making, it does. It makes you stand out and turns you form just another person to someone they kind of feel like they know.
Just about every job I've ever gotten has been in part because someone I know knew someone that did the hiring.
In the 14 or so years I've worked in I.T. (in various capacities, ranging from a tech. behind the counter in a small "mom and pop" store, to support specialist in a multi-company corporate environment, to freelance consulting, to on-site service companies), I've run into the whole spectrum of "computer professionals".
Almost without exception, the highest paid of them didn't correlate with the most knowledgeable of them.
Also, finding a correlation between having multiple certs. and being "better than the other I.T. guys" at performing their job was difficult. Quite frankly, some of the "best and brightest" I.T. people I've ever run across weren't certified in anything at all. They simply worked with the stuff "hands on" for years and years, learning the facts that really matter, without the "fluff" and largely useless theory that comes with the certs. (If you get your MCSE for example, much of it will test your ability to construct a complete LAN/server infrastructure that best meets the needs of a group of hypothetical users. That's all well and good, but it's utterly useless 99% of the time. How often do you get hired on with your MCSE to build a network and infrastructure for a company from the ground up?? If they're hiring, it's because they already HAVE that set up and they need help administering it! You simply don't have to concern yourself with all the small details of why everything was set up. In fact, your MCSE knowledge might well tell you things are designed poorly - but trying to change that upsets some office politics and then you're booted out the door.)
What I guess I'm getting at is - the MOST VALUABLE thing you can have on your side is KNOWING PEOPLE. Make connections! A good friend who has some hiring power in a company that needs another computer guy is worth 10 certifications. Looking back on it now, I believe every job I ever had was at least partially due to knowing somebody. (Heck, even my very first job doing telemarketing for a carpet cleaners was obtained because a good friend's girlfriend already worked there, and told me they had openings if I was interested. Then, she put in a good word or two for me - and I was hired.)
But I won't be putting this cert on my resume (I don't intend to stay here any longer than I have to), for the same reason I don't mention that I was vice president of the senior class in high school: it wouldn't impress the kinds of people I want to work for, and it would distract from my actual qualifications.
> Makes you more well rounded and it's 4 easy tests.
This is exactly why the tech certs are little better than ass-wiping paper in many cases.
Any test that is easy (in the tech field) is inherently worthless. It means nothing to the prospective employer since any monkey could pass it. It means nothing to the applicant because the job applicant queue is... full of monkeys who passed it.
Easy tests are only useful to companies who get paid to train for and deliver said tests.
Forget actually getting certified, just put every certification you think will impress on your resume, with dates showing that you've had 'em for years. After submitting your resumes for a couple of weeks and you _still_ don't have any job interviews lined up, I think you'll arrive at the answer to your question yourself.
The job market is tough. I saw the writing on the wall years ago, and decided to go it alone and start my own business. Companies like to hire consultants, even if they're $100.00/hr because they don't have to pay benefits, and they can let 'em go when the job's done.
I think a stack of business cards, membership in a local toastmasters group and making the rounds at local business networking groups goes a lot further than any piece of paper you have.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
I don't have formal training in either. I got the job because at the time, I was willing to work for not alot of $$$, I was a quick study, and the person who was currently doing it had absolutely no idea.
It's 3 years later, I'm still working there. The $$$ still isn't great, but I have a job forever if I want it. I've learned a pile of stuff, and more every day. We are slowly and steadily growing and expanding into new markets.
A recent freind of mine work(ed) in the same field (graphic art) for over 30 years. He made the mistake of trying to be a 'one man band', in areas that he was not very good at (recording studio, DJ, Video, etc.)
He lost his shirt, and his sanity.
He was appling for jobs in his 'real' field and was told by the HR person that there were over 300 applicants with similar qualifications, but less experience (fresh new Graphic Art students). All these people, and no jobs.
He now lives in northern Minnesota, trying to get his life together.
My longtime pal (25 years out of 32) is working for a larger nonprofit as a Network Admin. He went to school to be a psycologist, quit 2 weeks before he graduated, and got a job at the U of M in the IT department.
He didn't have any formal training either. He now has a few certs under his belt, and has an entire room full of old PCs, Sparcs and Macs that he messes with at home and takes the experience to work.
We were discussing the irony of us having jobs, while there are people who would blow us away in the certification/experience dept. He thought we just happened to be at the right place at the right time. We both read /., and are well aware of how lucky we are to be working in fields where there are more qualified people sitting at home watching a Sci-Fi Twilight Zone marathon.
I guess my advice would be to screw the certs, leave some stuff off your resume, and try something at a tangent to your experience or something not at all related.
Move to a smaller town, and look at smaller companies .(I live in rural Minnesota, and although I'd make more $$$ doing the same job in the Cities, I would also be competing with a huge population of more experienced people for the same job.)
One thing I've often thought about is how /. has an impressive amount of smart people that are unemployed, and if they all worked together on something, they would be a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps a 'distributed' start-up of some kind - I would think that the OS community would be knowlegable in working with widely located people.
Like I said, not very helpful. I'm just a musician who got lucky.
Please don't spread FUD.
Employment Visas are granted to those with an employment letter from an Indian company.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Sorry you took offense, but this question has been troubling me for some weeks now, and I didn't get many responses to the original post, so I felt it needed a little more exposure. Now I can look over all these responses and make a more educated decision. Thanks Slashdot surfers! :)
Start your own company. Sell your services to small businesses that need them, but not full time. Hire your own people, ride their asses for certs. You'll be making plenty of money and have job security. Just undercut your competition's hourly rate. You should still be able to get $90 an hour. Sell contracts to people who don't want to pay that much, but make them buy 2 discounted hours a month as part of the contract. Maybe charge them $75.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
A+ of all things is what got me my last job. My whole department was outsourced, and the incoming company was under obligation to take a few of the old techs in.
Men with a decade more experience were passed over for the two people with an otherwise worthless A+.
My state (Minnesota) will pay for certifications and training to assist the unemployed. If yours does too, you've got nothing to loose.
/* Back off man, I'm a scientist. */
Business or English.
:)
CS + Business is a good combo because PHBs need someone to cut through all the tech BS that their techies push at them and then dumb it down to their level. If your into Design Patterns think of yourself as a techie PHB Adapter
If you don't care too much for business then go for a minor in English. No matter what career path you end up going down, knowing how to read and write (and do it well) will be useful.
So I'd say your chances of getting a fulltime job soon just improved 10,000% - now I'm actually getting daily contacts from HR departments and headhunters, and have 2 job offers I soon have to act on......so what I'm saying is don't spend the money for renewing your certs just yet, get a job, maybe the employer forks out for it, or maybe you decide if it's then worthwhile for you to spend money on yourself.
I recently read that the 1-million mark had been passed for lawyers in the US. I think the surplus of lawyers is to blame for the sue-happy americans, which, of course, increases the demand for lawyers. Chicken, meet egg.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I lost all of my CISCO certification in October. I have been way to busy to take the test, and could really give two shites. I work on networking equipment everyday. I already proved I can be certified, as I was. Why keep it up to date, unless you are talking years later.
When we hire someone, we never take certification as the be all of what someone is technically capable of. I know many people with MS, LINUX, CISCO, etc certification. They know nothing. What they do kn ow is how to study and take a test. 2 years later and they are still not that good. Do to that, they are alwats lookinh for a job.
I would keep up the the technology and changes, and wait down the road to waste the money. Unless someone is going to pay and, and all bills, to get recertified.
My advice to the original poster is to let the certs expire. Nursing your remaining cash is far more important. There were too many idiots that paid $5k-$10k for some Boot Camp where they were spoon fed the answers to the cert exams. That burnt most employers out on certifications.
I think this is a true statement, however unfair or bad you think it is. I got my current job because my dad was friends with the director of human resources of where I work (same church). So I got my foot in the door there. He didn't just give me the job, but with out that contact I probably wouldn't have been considered. I was contacted by a family friend about my next job opportunity. He also went to our church and was president of a company. They were looking, but I like where I was more. So really most of my opportunities and even side jobs are because of family friends, church members or people I've known.
:wq
How about the first step of recruitment: resume selection? How do you go about doing that? Who selects the candidates: you or HR? I think a lot of people with problems, including me, get stuck on the first step. We don't even get selected for interviews. Once you get an interview, then it isn't a big deal. You either know it or you don't. I always find the first step the most difficult. I'm sure many others here feel the same way.
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
But don't speak for all CS majors; this one is doing just fine.
My work history is similar. I co-op'd in 05/99, graduated in 05/00, and became a *very good* developer since then inside IBM. I had consistent raises, and was making 50% more than my starting salary and kept working hard right on through the DotBomb as my friends exhausted their unemployment; my final salary was equivalent to a ChemE with twice my work experience (I know one, we compared). My layoff was due entirely to a personal beef with my last micro-manager. I had two other managers ready to pick me back up but I decided to accept the generous severance package. I know I could get another (good) job with my skillset, and could probably even last a good 10-15 years.
But.
Let's talk about what grown-up industries do, like mechanical, civil, and chemical engineering. Student chapters exist at all the universities, *big* corporations commit lots of money not only on college recruiting but also internships, luncheons, and raising awareness. At my local school for ChemE, $20 dues in AIChE gets you access to 12 luncheons/year with some really big names. You get your money back on the first meal, actually. Then there are several national design competitions that you can get to for about $100+food (the corporate sponsors cover the hotel, dues, and most of the flight). And inside the school, there's always a strong bond between upperclass students tutoring the freshman/sophmores.
All this is for *undergraduate students* who can still drop out anytime! I've *never* seen that kind of attention devoted to the fields of software design, development, or engineering. Nor have any of my Old Skool IBM friends. Some were around doing real work on the mainframes through the 80's, others have worked with HP and Sun. (No DECers alas.)
To continue though, the grown-up industries have annual salary surveys, work satisfaction reports, employer critiques, and research opportunities galore. Computer Science has ACM (which has been *dead* on most of the campuses I've been to), a big taboo inside the industry for discussing wages, terrible overtime compensation, and hardly any big-dollar *software* research outside the games sub-industry, Los Alamos, and a handful of universities. (Hardware research is still funded, but those are Computer Engineering/Electrical Engineering degrees.)
This is what I mean by grown-up industry. If you lost your job right now, you'd be tossed into a pool of business and communications majors looking for work, and you'd really have no place to start in the well-established job search circles. Your local unemployment office might not even have a job title that matches your skills. Software architect? Software engineer? Network troubleshooter? System administrator? When you apply for a job, your technical skills would have to match *very closely* to it's listed requirements to get an interview. And I do mean CLOSE: like "JSP" instead of "JavaServer Pages" because it's a wildcard filter. And you can ask your friends for help, but between July and December no one is hiring full-time so networking won't get you far.
OTOH, if my brother (who is a ChemE) lost his job, he would have places to go. Employers routinely post their engineering positions to AIChE's site, the unemployment office would know how to place him, and if all else fails he could just apply for those government positions that require a Professional Engineering license. (Note: license, not certification: it takes five years understudy and a battery of tests to get it.)
I don't see Computer Science ever reaching this point. Which is a real shame, because there's plenty for us to do before we have Star Trek-like AI. Instead, companies are abandoning the CS major via outsourcing just at the moment they should be pushing for it to get past adolescence. We could see a university program offer students a rigorous education in creating quality production-ready code ("Software Engineering") in any lan