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To Recertify, or Not Recertify?
"The real fun and excitement was in the engineering department, and I was told the sure way in was to get my CCNA. Well I got my Sybex book, and with the help of our small lab (two Cisco routers and a catalyst switch) I received my CCNA with a [score over 90].
Thrilled as I was, the engineering department was taking some hits, and I couldn't get in. Instead of remaining stagnant I took it on myself to get my CCDA, which I got a month later. Engineering department still going down, me still wanting to rise, I looked for something else. At about this time my company was trying to get a contract working with Nortel routers and switches. 'This is my chance!', I proclaimed.
One and a half months later I was a NNCSS (Nortel Networks Certified Support Specialist), but then contract fell through. The engineering department was taking BIG hits (as was the rest of the networking industry), but I was determined. We only had one CCNP in the company, and my goal was set. With the help of the lab, and some determination, after three months I became a CCNP and CCDP.
Did I get in the engineering department?
Nope.
Did I give up?
Nope.
I got my CCIE study guide, and was all ready to rent time at a major Cisco lab at The University of Colorado, in Boulder (I am not even sure that they have this lab anymore). A month later there were two people left in the engineering department, and then was laid off.
After six months of unemployment checks and sending resumes, I gave up and decided to go back to school and do some independent consulting for some small businesses in the Denver metro area. Now, I am again looking for a full time job, and I am dealing with the same problems that I dealt with, two years ago.
I am happy to admit that all my hands on Cisco experience have not been in a production environment. I understand that the difference between the lab and the real stuff is huge. But the certs didn't, and still don't even get my foot in the door. My resume has been critiqued by many people, and is in tip-top shape. I do have experience on Gateways (Nomadix) and many switches (SMC) and have worked on some MDU engineering projects.
Any suggestions?"
Don't waste your money.
Many jobs nowadays want X years of experience in lieu of Y certifications or Z years of schooling. A lot of IT management smartened up when they certification-mills pumped out losers with some theoretical knowledge but crumbled under practical pressure. You can thank the Dot-Bomb for that. The money-motivated didn't want to spend the time in school to learn the trade lest they get left behind so certification-mills filled a need: impatient people that wanted to make lots of money in the "new economy".
Thankfully a lot of those that were in it only for the money are unemployed (no insult to the submitter intended) or selling crap. Of course different parts of the world and different companies have varying policies so I have to stress YMMV!
Trolling is a art,
Try to get a job with this allmost-expired certs. Maybee your next employer pays your study. You never know. If nobody wants you with this certs, get some new. Or whatever, its your choice.
During my 11 month unemployment spree I could say one thing for sure. My certs didn't mean shit in the workplace. People just wanted on the job experience, same thing with formal education. The same questions always prevailed, "Do you have any work experience?" I won't bash certs that badly as my curent workplace is offering to fully certify my ass for free... Now, final note, none of this rings true for CCIE's.
in my experience, certifications don't mean that much.
What they do mean, is that someone is booksmart enough to sit there and study the material, go in, and take a test. They don't mean the individual can actually fix anything.
In any technical job, be it mechanical or information, the fundamentals of troubleshooting and resourcefulness are far more important than any piece of paper.
i put alot more stock in good references and job experience than certs..
ALL THAT SAID THOUGH:
HR and employers are still waking up to the facts mentioned above. so no matter what the reality is with certs, the problem remains; how can you prove yourself a good technician if you can't get hired.
companies are getting better at recognizing intrinsic skill rather than going whats on a resume, but that has a long way left to go.
i didn't get any certs tho, because i refuse to pay money for something i don't need. i can do my job just fine without a piece of paper to help me along, heh.
I know you're probably not interested and I can't blame you but look into getting you Microsoft Certified Sysstems Administrator cert instead of recerting on your Cisco. Makes you more well rounded and it's 4 easy tests. Plus you already know what you're doing w/ Cisco products and your experience will count. :)
Also, don't you mean you got a 900 on the CCNA? Not a 90
This guy is way out there
But not because you think it will get you a job, it won't. The days when people were hired in IT because they carried the right bits of paper are gone and dead. These days you get hired because you're the only person available who can solve a critical issue, solve an impossible problem, or otherwise convince your potential employer that hiring you will save him money and tears.
Certification is a commodity and commodity jobs have been shipped overseas.
So, it would be better to do some research in a few prospective companies to see what kinds of essential IT skills they are short of, then go and get some practice in that area. Arm yourself with a skill an employer is actively seeking and you might get the job. One more certificate (or even a CS degree!) won't mean squat.
Ceci n'est pas une signature
I think that tech certifications are not very useful: they have an extremely limited lifetime and are usually relatively expensive.
I strongly recommend to get non-technical certifications and titles. While an CCNE, MSCE or NZTSGREF is only valid for 2 years, a Ph.D. or Mensa membership is for life.
And both are usually much cheaper than those exams - for the Ph.D. you could get an industry sponsored topic, earning you money, experience and sometimes even patents. And Mensa membership cost just 30 (US) bucks.
And there are much more such certifications like MS or MBA in different scientific areas out there.
And it usually pays off if you have an higher academic title than your boss.
Owner of a Mensa membership card.
I'm sure you've heard the expression, "One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results". You keep getting these certs and still fail to get the job you want. Maybe you need to pursue another type of education, another company, or another field altogether.
I wouldn't say that certs are completely without value. They sere two fundamental values. First, as a pre-screening criteria for hiring managers, they know that you have, at least, passed a minimum skills test. Second, when the decision is down between you and another person, with your resumes laying side-by-side, the certifications are going to come up as bonus points. Plus, and this is equally important, you can safely bet that the other applicant has certifications.
That said, I wouldn't get too stressed about renewing. I've yet to meet a hiring manager that has asked if a certification was still "valid".
Good luck in your search.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
And I would disagree. Sure the ads don't have a requirement, but that doesn't mean that when they go through the 100 resumes they receive for the single opening that they don't consider the degree.
In IT it might be slightly different. But as an engineer, even though I am an EE, the degree has given me a broad enough background that I can understand any engineering discipline (sp?) to a certain extent. I can read a piping diagram just as well as a structural drawing, interpret it and make a decision/recommendation based on what I know. That is valuable and important.
Put it this way, you have two candidates, one with a CS degree with a concentration in networking and one with a certificate. The college graduate spent 4 years being exposed to different technologies and is able to make decisions because of a broader exposure, while the CCNA spent a couple of months learning about Cisco products and may be no better than the toll-free sales line for making an overall decision. I don't know anyone who regrets a college degree (at least a technical based one).
That isn't to say that a degree is everything. I work with non-degreed engineers who have spent there whole life working with our final product, and they are as valuable to the company as anyone else.
-dave
/., where "Apple and Google provide Iran with nukes" will be refuted with "But Microsoft is a convicted monopolist"
certifications != work experience
My point is that you aren't going to have much of a chance of getting in the door without a 4 year degree any more, and you can't get valuable work experience without starting somewhere.
"I have a porkchop, you have a porkchop. I have a veal, you have a veal".
Having a degree opens many possibilities that weren't there before, including higher-level technical management positions. Even if your future company scales back to 5 techs, they'll still need someone to manage them.
I myself would not put a high school graduate into a management position unless there were extenuating circumstances.
Look and see who is hiring what kind of people in the place you want to live. If you see something there you want to do, THEN get certified and/or qualified and do that.
Geeks get hung up on what they *want* to do. Jobs are about doing things for other people. Find out what the people want, where you want to be and do that. Anything else is insane.
Networking is down because the market is saturated, supply exceeds demand. The same is true of Mathematical Programming (what I love to do). So I do Enterprise Programming. Much less interesting, but people want/need it, so I can make a living doing it (even that used to be easier though).
If Enterprise Programming goes down the tubes (read off-shore competition), then I will find something else. That's life.
The perceived value of certifications differs from company to company, but also depends on the field of IT you're in. From what I've seen, certifications for programmers matter little, but they do for DBAs... I wouldn't know about network guys though.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
...is teaching. Break out of the rut that takes your valuable labor and converts it to ready cash for company executives that simply don't give a shit about you. You have had a great opportunity to see the world of networking from the inside. Isn't it time you passed the torch onto others?
You cheapen the value of your knowledge and time by entertaining thoughs of going back into industry. There are always going to be people in this world content to work for someone else. You can take what you know and leverage it into a new career in education. Sure, the pay's not what you would get in industry, but you will have enough extra time on your hands to start a consulting business on the side. Between your consulting income and teaching salary, you stand a strong likelihood of earning more than you did when in industry. (Plus, teaching is often an added badge of credibility to prospective clients. Ignore the adage of "Those who can, do...those who can't teach." This is the mantra of those who can't do either.)
Work smart, not hard.
Oddly enough, I have a BSCS degree from a good school (Purdue), a list of certs as long as my arm (Microsoft, Novell, Sun, Compaq, Lotus, Cisco...) and tons of experience, and I haven't found *any* of it to be that useful in getting an IT job.
I see most jobs going to friends of friends, or being offered on the basis of the IT recruiter willing to suck the most dick (literally, I worked a job where a recruiter slept with 3 different hiring managers to get 20 techies into a 1-year contract.)
What I ended up doing, and I'm not always pleased that I did it, is take a job as an IT trainer. I can certify on anything, for free, and my employer will pay for it. The guys who come into my classes with stars in their eyes mostly get fucked over when they're done, because all they did was study to pass some tests - and I always start my classes with a "It's really tough out there for IT guys now...", but a certain percentage of my students do have a clue, and those guys have managed to get into real IT jobs, and to do well. Because my schedule as a trainer is kind of weird, I usually have Friday - Sunday off from my trainer job + some time off durng middle of the day, which is more than enough time to keep in touch with old customers or to work side jobs.
Anyway, if you've got a decent educational background and a few different high-level certs, you can probably make a good living teaching others.
-- I wanna decide who lives and who dies - Crow T. Robot, MST3K
If it took you 52 weeks to study then you are in the wrong industry.
Today, with the wide availability of CS majors, even CS master, will to work for starvation wages, there is little reason for a company to settle for anything less. Likewise, since some certificates take mere months to acquire, there are bound to be a surplus of persons with these certificates.
To refer back to the article, if a company uses the 'certificate' issue to block your promotion, then it is likely that they simply want you to stay where you are. If they really wanted you in the department, they would hire you on the condition that you earned your certification is a certain time. During that time they would also train you in company specific routine and requirements. I hate to say, but it sounds like the engineering department is just messing with you. Go work somewhere else if you can.
Also, perhaps you might try for more demanding certifications.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
In the short term, computer jobs are going to be very difficult to land. I was replaced by someone making $3 an hour and it's hard to compete with those economics. The problem is that right now China, India, Malaysia and others are artificially keeping their currency low relative to the dollar. China is the worst with an exchange rate fixed to the US dollar. Malaysia does not have a fixed exchange rate but it is very difficult to trade Malaysian currency. India has some currency controls but not as bad as Malaysia, which is why their relative costs have gone up a little.
If these currency controls were eliminated tomorrow, we'd see a rapid increase in the cost of sending jobs overseas. But I don't think this current administration is at all concerned with doing anything to prevent jobs from going overseas. I actually heard the president say that US workers need to get education and training to compete. I have education and training but I cannot compete because the playing field is not level.
Frylock: That's not a toy!
Master Shake: You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun.
No set of skills meets every employer's wants. Particularly in view of the job exporting craze that is in full swing now, being able to COMMUNICATE in grammatically correct English gets you lots of points when you're an otherwise technically overweighted person. I went from technician to tech manager at a solid financial services company in four years because I could research projects, work up a presentation for execs and directors, and lead implementation. My boss took credit for my work for a long time, but eventually she was exposed. Wanna know what my credentials were before I landed that entry-level job? I had a BA in journalism/PR, 10 years of retail management, an MCSE, and a fairly good grasp of the bash shell. Be strong technically, yes - - but show that you're more than that. It will get you attention in this day and age when so many geeks can't put together a proper sentence.
It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then, it's hilarious.
The big reason to get any cert is because you see a series of jobs that specifically state you need the cert AND you are underqualified for the position. The certs will get your foot in the door, but your personality has to get you the job. If you're qualified, certifications don't help or hurt- they're like a mole on your back that people will be aware of only when you tell them they exist.
However, if you are targeting a company like Microsoft or Cisco for employment, get the certs! These companies are going to want to hire people that are:
- familiar with their solutions
- compentent/experienced enough for the position open
Companies this large tend to want folks who can help dogfood their tools and improve them. Additionally, dogfooding means that you save these groups plenty of cash- A microsoft tester who knows java is probably going to loose a position to a tester with an MCAD- who will in turn design and implement MS-based solutions rather than trying to evangelize some Javabeans solution.I made the cert choices I did because I wanted to be in Information Security, I looked in some books and I decided I'd mirror the certs of the authors of these texts. The only thing left that I'd like to get in terms of a certification is an MCSD, but that's only if I am trying to get employed at Microsoft. If my next job is one that will be long term and give me the flexibility, then I'm going to target a Masters degree, because really, what's the point in getting another technical certification if I will acquire the experience that should equal an MCSD?
Will I renew my certs? Probably only the CISSP. How else do you convey to people that are mystified by the shamanistic ways of Hackers that Yes, I am the guy that can help keep them out. A big fat badge on your chest that says 'CISSP' makes those who don't understand feel safe. A 'CCNA' badge? meh... networking equipment will only get easier to use- The days of the Network Engineering team are starting to fade. These guys will be blue collar and unionized in another 10 years.
Ummm... most people look at Mensa membership as an indication that you haven't come to terms with being beat up on the playground in school by kids who were dumber than you. I'd probably qualify for it, but even if it was free, and something posessed me to join, I sure as hell wouldn't put it on my resume. Every experienced employer knows that being smart is not a very good discriminator for job performance, beyond simple qualification.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
The trouble with a C/S degree now is the way the industry looks at it. They want very current skills and even if you have a C/S degree you basically end up retraining every 2 years or so. The stuff you learn is very important, but until C/S is a true practice like engineering you don't really get to build on what you've learned before as much as someone like a structural engineer or a doctor.
This whole industry is just really, really screwey right now. If you are getting a CS degree try to get a minor in something pure like Math, Biology, Chemistry, etc that is more portable than you C/S degree should things get sour.
This space for rent.
I met a guy who had been working in tech for several years. He then lost his job and sent out 200 resumes. He didn't get a job and found himself competing against people with 20 years experience for jobs.
He decided to give up on tech and lent some money out to open a liquor store. Now he makes tons of money, far more than he did in programming, and the work is easy. For instance, he went to Costco, bought $900 worth of Champagne and sold it for $5000 on New Years. He's putting in an underground cofee shop just like he did in his native Lithuania. Sorry guys, tech is a graveyard right now and unless you're really good you should explore other careers. If there's another dot.com boom come back but otherwise it isn't worth it.
Take job that's related to your field. Any job. No matter how low the salary.
I have been on the hiring end several times, and let me tell you that nothing looks worse on your resume than not working for a significant length of time, even if you're busy working on getting more certifications.
If you can't find employment in your field, then start your own company and offer on-site network support for local businesses at a very low price. It might not earn you a lot of money, but you'll be gaining credibility as a self-directed, self-motivated go-getter and IMHO that's worth more in your resume then just piling up certifications.
Good Luck.
Two jobs ago we were hiring a UNIX admin and we got a lot of applicants. The person we hired stated on his cover letter that he had *NO* certifications at all. It didn't matter because we hired him based on his knowledge. I've done basically the same thing when in interviews. The question invariably comes up about what kind of experience (school, certs, work) you have, and I'm honest - I don't have certs because I could probably teach most of the cert classes that relate to the job (I'm not talking about CCIE or oracle or other high-end stuff).
That said, though, I don't know anyone in management (above entry-level superviosr) who doesn't have a degree. I'm sure there are managers out there who don't have degrees, but in today's day and age, if you don't want to be a peon the rest of your career (read: peon = bottom of the employee-manager chain), a degree will serve you well, even more than certs. My current supervisor doesn't have a degree (and isn't currently working on one), and I have more experience than him. But its an entry-level supervisor. Two management rungs above him all have at least MBA's and most have PhD's in the areas they manage (such as the engineering fields). Neither him nor I will get much higher without a degree.
Then you can decide what kind of certs your employees will need to work for you.
Also, expand your skills horizontally. That is, rather than continue to increase your specialization in one thing, learn some new skills that will compliment those you have. This will make you more valuable to prospective employers, and it will make you a better entrepeneur (if you start your own business.) So maybe instead of spending your money on new certs, spend it on a class that teaches you new skills.
Beyond that, praying that congress extends unemployment another 6 months usually works for me.
And if you think you're an expert in a field while taking less than a year to learn the stuff, you're also in a wrong industry.
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy
In my experience, a few years of experience plus several certifications is worth the few years of experience. I think a lot of companies are beginning to catch on to the fact that people can have a bunch of certifications and still be worthless when it comes to getting anything done. Not to berate those who have gone for certs, but they just don't translate into real world ability the way that actually doing it for a few years does. It's nice to have a few knowledge-based theories about why the network is slow as hell for everyone, but explainations generally take a back seat to getting it fixed.
The reason most large companies do like to see college on your resume is that colleges don't sit you down and throw a bunch of info about one topic at you. Most colleges construct major requirements in such a way as to produce well-rounded individuals. While art history may not help you kill the network virus that's spreading through the corporate LAN, it does help you to a certain degree with other things, like social interaction. This comes in handy when you berate the idiot who brought his infected-all-to-hell laptop into work and plugged it into the LAN without telling anyone. This is why trade schools are helping less with finding work, and why college remains a good starting point for a resume.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
True, but it would be even easier to get the job if you can avoid being lumped in with everyone else.
Most jobs (so I've heard) go to "friends of friends" or "colleagues of colleagues". So go get yourself noticed.
If you belong to a church, maybe you can help them out with any technical needs, and maybe someone there will remember you next time they're looking for techincal people.
Or go fix up a school's computers. Make sure to show up on any award night where the school recognizes all the hard work you've put in. Maybe someone else will notice and offer you a job. Or maybe that article about you in the local paper ("Local man spends summer fixing up school's computers for free") will get you noticed (especially if your phone number or website is listed in the article).
There are probably lots more ways to do it... none of them easy, but probably a lot more effective than hoping to have one more acronym than every other resume in the stack.
A company would rather hire an individual who they think they can trust over an individual who may be technically superior to the other every day of the week.
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The relative cost of labor overseas has very little to do with currency exchange rates. It's all to do with the cost of living, and the expected standard of living in the area. That's why you'll see call centers moving to the middle of nowhere, 'cause people there don't expect $60k/year to answer phones. They're happy with $25k or less. The reason: the standard of living is lower out there, and the cost of living out there is lower. Extrapolate that out to a third world country, and you'll see why that same thinking leads to overseas workers...they're happy with the equivalent of $8k or so.
Changing the exchange rate won't do a damned thing to stop offshoring. That's a complete red herring. The only thing that will effectively raise the price of offshoring is raising the standard of living and the cost of living in the countries that we're offshoring to. But that's hard, and won't happen quickly, so don't expect to see the economics of offshoring change anytime in the next few decades.
Join the military reserves and get one. You will be marketable, with or without the certs. That is, if you want to stay tech in the US. Those jobs will not get outsourced overseas. The current indications are the jobs that have been lost, are not going to be coming back when the economy gets better. If you do not want to stay tech, then go back to school and get trained in an area that will not get affected by outsourcing to a third world country. Don't wait for your cheese to come back, go find it.
From the time to time that I look for new jobs. One thing has become more and more important than anything else.
Conver Letters Count More Than You Think. Especially Applying Online!!!!
It gets boring writing a different one for each position, but you have to. If the advertise position doesn't give enough info, then you need to get crazy!.
I think if you took my 4 boldest cover letters (typically written after then 5th Sam Adams) during job hunts, I got responses on 3 out of 4.
Anything else, just wouldn't do.
And I mean it. Drink some beers, smoke some weed. Do whatever it takes to lift yourself up into a different state of being with the Universe, and bang out some sh$%t story as to how the company can't afford not to hire you!
Expose a little passion!
Including just casual friends. See if any of them know anyone in a company that is hiring. Doesn't need to be in the same department even. Have your friend introduce you to the guy they know in the company, then try and get that guy to talk to the person in charge of hiring for the job you want. That should at least get you an interview.
You'd be supprised who some of your friends happen to know. They probably never mentioned it since it didn't seem relivant, but if you ask you can find out.
And personal recommendations go a looooooong way. Even if people don't know that it influences their decision making, it does. It makes you stand out and turns you form just another person to someone they kind of feel like they know.
Just about every job I've ever gotten has been in part because someone I know knew someone that did the hiring.
If everyone did work at walmart or macdonalds, there would be a huge slump in people's disposable income. Nothing would be bought. WalMart sales would slump lower and lower. It happened in the late 1920s in Germany. In Germany the trigger was the Wall Street crash. This time it will be the outsourcing of jobs that causes a huge economic crash. Germany recovered, but only after Hitler came to power and employed the millions of unemployed building autobahns and mainly munitions. America is already starting to become more extremist that it has been. Look at Howard Dean.. the left and right wingers are becoming more polarized everyday, with Bush cutting taxes and reducing public sector funding and Dean responding by pledging to increase taxes and restore the levels of funding. Unless the US Gov. sees that this is a disaster train, we are going to have a huge economic meltdown on our hands.
Personally, I'd hire a Philosophy or English major who's spent his weekends and summers in college hacking or doing entry-level tech work, over a Comp Sci major with just a handful of certs. One of the best fresh-out-of-school "techs" I've seen was (I think) a Psych major. But again, that's just me.
Forget actually getting certified, just put every certification you think will impress on your resume, with dates showing that you've had 'em for years. After submitting your resumes for a couple of weeks and you _still_ don't have any job interviews lined up, I think you'll arrive at the answer to your question yourself.
The job market is tough. I saw the writing on the wall years ago, and decided to go it alone and start my own business. Companies like to hire consultants, even if they're $100.00/hr because they don't have to pay benefits, and they can let 'em go when the job's done.
I think a stack of business cards, membership in a local toastmasters group and making the rounds at local business networking groups goes a lot further than any piece of paper you have.
Ruby on Rails Screencast
If you belong to a church, maybe you can help them out with any technical needs, and maybe someone there will remember you next time they're looking for techincal people.
just to let you know something.... I couple of friends are freemasons, and nither of them have had any trouble getting jobs over the past 20 years.
the biggest boost you can get to a career is to become a freemason. that's a boys club that certianly watches out for each other. they will give each other job leads, and prefrenencial hiring over other candidates.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Start your own company. Sell your services to small businesses that need them, but not full time. Hire your own people, ride their asses for certs. You'll be making plenty of money and have job security. Just undercut your competition's hourly rate. You should still be able to get $90 an hour. Sell contracts to people who don't want to pay that much, but make them buy 2 discounted hours a month as part of the contract. Maybe charge them $75.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
Actually, our hiring policy (when we do it) is completely backwards, intentionally.
.. at work?
.. demonstrate.
:)
We've hired people with lots of certifications, who could do absolutely nothing when they walked in the door. We gave them some time, but it didn't help, and we'd have to let them go.
We've hired people who had no certifications or formal training. They had learned some programming on their own, and played with *nix machines at home. They've been our best people.
Our interviews are fairly laid back.
What jobs relative to this work environment have you done?
What do you know? Languages, hardware platforms, etc.
Are you willing to learn?
What OS's have you used personally (home)?
If I were to hand you a broken server, could you fix it?
If I'm not sure, I may open up a console, do a little something, and then ask them to explain what I just did.
I've given people a stack of parts, and told them to build me a server, and install the OS with my CD (with instructions). I'm a bit rough. I tell them they have 10 minutes to complete it, or whatever. I just want to see how well they work. I don't really care that it takes 15 minutes, or if they encounter a problem and can't finish. I wanted to see that they made a good attempt.
I felt so sorry for one interview. This was back when I worked in a computer store. I gave him a random machine from the "repair" rack, and told him to fix it. I hadn't actually checked it out myself. I swear, just about everything was broken on that thing. I had no idea before he started, I hadn't checked it first. The customer report was "won't boot". No shit. Dead power supply, fried motherboard, etc, etc... Must have been a lightning strike (this was Florida). He looked so terrified. I watched what he was doing, and he did everything right, so he did pass, even though he didn't get it working.
All in all, I'd rather hire some Linux geek with no certs at all.
My last two best people I've hired were:
an ex-Y2k AIX programmer, with Linux and *BSD experience at home.
a "consultant" with no formal job experience, but in his words, "an OS whore". He'd used every OS out there enough to be familiar with them. He introduced *ME* to BeOS. I used it for a day.
It seems every time we take in someone with a degree of some sort, they're very proud of their education, but can't look beyond what they've learned.
I agree, in Fortune500-land, or for the government, you'll need or want a degree. But there are still companies who's senior tech geek (me) wants other geeks around him who actually understand and enjoy what they're doing.
(sorry to all my coworkers I just labled as "geek" if you didn't like it. hehe)
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Setting a programmer in front of a computer is a much better test than giving him a sheet of paper. A good programmer makes use of all the tools he has available, including online help files and debugging tools.
Some places do this sort of test on paper only. The people who pass are those who know their language cold, and who tend to write very few bugs in the first pass of thier code. But many of the ones who fail are of the more resourceful sort, who can make good use of their tools to adapt to problems with which they were previously unfamiliar.
Of course ther ARE people who are 1337 in both categories, but the previous paper-only test won't reveal such people.
Ok, I'm done.
Business or English.
:)
CS + Business is a good combo because PHBs need someone to cut through all the tech BS that their techies push at them and then dumb it down to their level. If your into Design Patterns think of yourself as a techie PHB Adapter
If you don't care too much for business then go for a minor in English. No matter what career path you end up going down, knowing how to read and write (and do it well) will be useful.
So I'd say your chances of getting a fulltime job soon just improved 10,000% - now I'm actually getting daily contacts from HR departments and headhunters, and have 2 job offers I soon have to act on......so what I'm saying is don't spend the money for renewing your certs just yet, get a job, maybe the employer forks out for it, or maybe you decide if it's then worthwhile for you to spend money on yourself.
Uh. NO. I just got OUT of that field. Wouldn't go back for ANYTHING.
If I break something on a computer, I can fix it.
If I medicate a patient incorrectly and kill him, that's not something I can fix.
And, maybe for women, it's a more viable alternative. However, there's a MASSIVE unspoken gender bias in the nursing industry.
Not to mention that the burnout rate is hovering around 60% and 10 years.
Not only that, the state of the health care system in this country is going to lead to more and more cost cutting measures. Like primary care nursing (meaning the nurse does EVERYTHING, no nursing asssistants, no separate phlebotomy departments, NADA). Not only that, the patient load PER NURSE is climbing.
At Loyola, 8 patients to a nurse on the NIGHT SHIFT is easy (6 for days). In some units, it can climb as high as 16 per nurse. Now if you're just passing meds and trying to document everything, that's going to be hectic enough. But if you have a code, or even ONE of the patients is high maintenence, you're SCREWED (see 12 hours a day, 5 days a week when only scheduled for 40 hours).
Not to put too fine a point upon this....no, HELL NO, and FUCKING HELL NO!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I have a Bachelor's Degree in Biology and a Master's Degree in Information Technology and I don't see my Biology degree helping me out in getting jobs at all, so I don't think your advice is that top-notch.
In this kind of job market, a paper network technician is worth less than what you payed for it... When there are tons of people with lots of good, valid, relevent experience, all the paper (degress and certs) in the world isn't going to get you a job in the face of some guy who has NO degree, NO certs, but 15 years working on networks...
Of course, those people actually worked their way up to where they are now, didn't try and short cut their education by getting certs... they actually went out and DID it, so my question to you is, are you in it for the paycheck, or in it for the technology... if your in it for the paycheck, you will ALWAYS loose to someone who is happy to get paid to do something they would pay to do...
...that one lawyer that actually understands the technology...
Too late, sorry.
http://www.lessig.org/blog/
I suppose you can try for 2nd or so.
lizardb0y
http://www.vintage8bit.com/
I wouldn't do it.
I'm A+, Net+, MCSE(NT4), Dell Tech Cert(all 4)...
My former employer invested quite a bit in a migration strategy fron NT4 to Server 2000/2003, a project that I spearheaded. I probably know just as much about 2000/2003 than any other certified tech.
Point is, I could get 2003 certified easily if I wanted to.
But I won't.
Why?
I'm sick of the field. I'm sick of having to recertify every product generation, which sometimes equals once a year. I'm sick of my life's work revolving around the the act of supporting someone elses software. I'm sick of being in a field where we are ultimately ruled by the ignorant management class.
The industry rules us, software vendors rule us, ignorant management rules us, etc, etc.... I'm sick of it all.
I'm so sick of it all that I've gone back to college to change fields. I'm hoping to be a physics major. Fuck IT.
This cert, that cert. This kind of degree, from this college, or from that college. This kind of resume, or that kind of resume. All crap.
:)
I've done the job seeking thing the normal way. I have a CS degree from Cal State, I've got several networking certificates, and 4+ years of experience. I've applied to several hundred places at LEAST, over a period of two years. My resume is all sparkly. It all means jack. I couldn't get a minimum wage job doing tech support, much less any of those positions our college recruiter blabbled about when they sang praises about college education. I was about ready to say I just wasted 5 years of my life and a huge pile of money and do something else.
Apparently, the only way to land a job is to have someone on the inside. A friend, a relative, a connection of some kind. I stopped bothering with the resumes a year ago, and kind of moved slowly through graduate school, occasionally applying for jobs, working for friends, TA-ing for college.
Then, out of the blue, my parents helped set me up as computer tech at this private school (they are friends of the owners). It was not a glamorous offer, just a basic tech support position, mediocre money, plus I had to assist teaching IT. Not something I'd enjoy, but it was paid work, so I said yes. Once I got in, I worked my ass off. I got everything working, whereas the place didn't event have a working Internet connection prior to that. I overhauled old computers, cannibalized them for spare parts, repaired equipment deemed dead and gone, rewired and documented the entire school network, fixed all the printers. In short, I was a shiny, can-do, just-gimme-a-minute kind of a tech guy. Every time a dumb user, teacher, admin person, or whoever had a silly request, needed a little extra help, or just wanted to vent about their crappy computer, I was patient, polite, and helpful. Even if I had to work unpaid overtime. Even if I wanted to take a sledgehammer to the fools who kept doing what I told them not to ("Don't Press The Big Red Button, It Is Bad"). I just kept smiling and fixing problems.
And it paid off, bigtime. All these people who I helped talked to their friends. And every time computers came up, they'd mention my name as the guy who fixes everything. In the last month I've been approached by 3 HR people from large companies, wanting to hire me. Note that all they had was a good reference from someone on the inside, who had heard of me from a friend. No resume, no nothing. I'm about to accept one of the offers. It is a sysadmin/IT administrator position, in a newly opened school for disabled children, excellent salary, perks, huge budget. No questions asked. I just stated my (very high) demands and they said "Ok, when can you start?". It was surreal. In all my job interviews prior to this, I'd had to prove to the (usually hostile) HR person that I'm just the guy for the job, and that I will do this and that for the company if they take me. The interviewer would keep asking silly questions, then they'd rapid fire some tech questions to try and see if I actually knew anything. This was a whole new world. They wanted ME, and were willing to go a long way to get me. I didn't have to prove my credentials, my loyalty, qualifications, or my personal integrity. Everything I asked for, I got, no questions asked...
Anyway. The only way to get a good job is to have someone pick you for it, because of a friendly connection. HR personnel are only human, just like the rest of us. The most important consideration for all of them is whether they can trust the person they are about to hire. They know that resumes are easily faked, and that interviews show someone in their best light, when they prepare themselves. They'd rather get an outside reference, from a friend or someone they trust, and go with it. Qualifications aside, I'm just another guy in a huge pile of recent CS graduates, with no other distinguishing characteristics. What sets me aside is that people know me as "the cool computer guy". Th
Good idea. I nearly went for the joint MBA/JD degree at UNC when I got my BS/IS in 1994. Still think about it, actually.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
My advice to the original poster is to let the certs expire. Nursing your remaining cash is far more important. There were too many idiots that paid $5k-$10k for some Boot Camp where they were spoon fed the answers to the cert exams. That burnt most employers out on certifications.