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To Recertify, or Not Recertify?
"The real fun and excitement was in the engineering department, and I was told the sure way in was to get my CCNA. Well I got my Sybex book, and with the help of our small lab (two Cisco routers and a catalyst switch) I received my CCNA with a [score over 90].
Thrilled as I was, the engineering department was taking some hits, and I couldn't get in. Instead of remaining stagnant I took it on myself to get my CCDA, which I got a month later. Engineering department still going down, me still wanting to rise, I looked for something else. At about this time my company was trying to get a contract working with Nortel routers and switches. 'This is my chance!', I proclaimed.
One and a half months later I was a NNCSS (Nortel Networks Certified Support Specialist), but then contract fell through. The engineering department was taking BIG hits (as was the rest of the networking industry), but I was determined. We only had one CCNP in the company, and my goal was set. With the help of the lab, and some determination, after three months I became a CCNP and CCDP.
Did I get in the engineering department?
Nope.
Did I give up?
Nope.
I got my CCIE study guide, and was all ready to rent time at a major Cisco lab at The University of Colorado, in Boulder (I am not even sure that they have this lab anymore). A month later there were two people left in the engineering department, and then was laid off.
After six months of unemployment checks and sending resumes, I gave up and decided to go back to school and do some independent consulting for some small businesses in the Denver metro area. Now, I am again looking for a full time job, and I am dealing with the same problems that I dealt with, two years ago.
I am happy to admit that all my hands on Cisco experience have not been in a production environment. I understand that the difference between the lab and the real stuff is huge. But the certs didn't, and still don't even get my foot in the door. My resume has been critiqued by many people, and is in tip-top shape. I do have experience on Gateways (Nomadix) and many switches (SMC) and have worked on some MDU engineering projects.
Any suggestions?"
Once your foot is sufficiently in the door, certifications mean little or nothing to hiring companies.
Completely agree... a 4 year degree from an accredited institution is quickly becoming the minimum that companies will accept for most white collar jobs. The days of the technical college (or certified, they are basically the same thing) IT worker are long gone.
"I have a porkchop, you have a porkchop. I have a veal, you have a veal".
It's the future of America. I'm not really joking.
I work in a two man IT department at a factory. My pal and I realize that this is the last of the gravy train. When these jobs end because of corporate restructuring or the factory moving to Mexico we will most likely never work in the Tech industry again.
To me I would think that a college degree is about the same as certifications. When I get my degree at least I won't have to come back and renew it, only maybe the occasional refresher course to keep me updated on new technology. Even then I'm hoping that my employer will at least go halfers on it with me. But don't get me wrong I'm not cutting down certifications. I would have almost gone that route rather than paying $30,000 to go to RIT (At least there would be more girls and I wouldn't be freezing my nuts off every winter). Might be cheaper in the long run?? I shall never know...
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
Consider this...when the I.T. industry makes a turn for the better (this year) what will set you apart from the thousands of other I.T. folks looking for a job? That's right..either that huge port wine stain on your melon...or certification. I honed my skills in a networked environment of over 6000 workstations, in a help desk situation. If I would have had my act together and gotten certified during that time, I would be in a much different place than I am right now. I'd say go for keeping your certification current as that will show potential employers that you follow through and that even though you've been unemployed in your chosen field, at least you're passionate enough about the work that you've kept up on certs... my2cents
Money not found! A)bort, R)etry, D)eclare Bankruptcy
The year I took studying for the 7 MCSE/W2K exams was a year I will never get back, and it's gotten me exactly nowhere. I actually had tech industry background and experience. Most of the people in my "class" didn't. The day before my appointment for test #5 of 7 was 9/11. That basically sealed our fate.
MCSE on W2K3 Server? No fucking way. Redmond can pound sand.
My suggestion: start studying nursing. They can't outsource that job yet...although the anime Roujin-Z suggests that perhaps eventual outsourcing to cyber-nurse beds might be in the cards for the future. Same with teaching. You can't dial in a teacher from Bangalore...at least not yet.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
From the sound of your plea, your certifications have done basically nothing for you thus far, so my question back at you is: what has your certification done for you?
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy!
Oddly enough I'm starting law school once I get my IT degree this May and I've got more certifications than I know what to do with. My plan is to be that one lawyer that actually understands the technology that's being litigated. You know, to help stop a state doing something stupid, like banning NAT. Oh, wait a sec...
--Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. -Arthur C. Clarke
Applying for a new job, OTOH... The certs imply that you have the book knowladge. But unless it is a consulting firm (where they have to "resell" you), then the certs themselves again, mean nothing. Choosing beteween someone who has worked with X product for years, and someone who has read a book and managed to pass a test, who would you choose?
This is not to say that certs in general are bad. But to some people/companies they dont mean anything. And I suppose that given otherwise identical canadates, someone who dosent care about certs would likely choose the guy with them.
One of the historical problems with certs is that they have been used as a marketing/mind share tool. Back in the day, becoming a Netware 3.x CNA was trivial. MCSE and CCNA today is the rage. Novell has "fixed" their education program, and even the one exam CNA's from 4.x on has been fairly good. But the damage was done. Today, everyone makes fun of MCSEs. And personaly, even being unemployed, I wouldnt wipe my ass with an A+ cert.
I think in your case, someone is fucking with you. Maby its just some lowly worker bees having some fun, and maby your company is just evil. But I would be looking for a way out.
This query paraphrases the resurgent question in the IT world as to the relative value of technical certifications in today's market. Can anyone contest that IT/IS job market in Silicon Valley is worlds away from those in sparsely populated regions of the midwest? Bearing this in mind, surely we can't assign a universal value to any certification, so how can anyone definitively answer mckeefarley's question?
I'd like to cite a couple of cases to illustrate this point further, in case it's helpful to anyone. My cousin and I work in related IT fields and we occasionally compare notes between our respective job markets. He possesses several major tech certs, including CCNA, MSCE, CNA, A+, Network+, et al. He reports that in San Diego, the IT job market is so competitive that many employers prequire MCSE certificaiton for Level 1 Help Desk positions. A November 2003 slashdot article addressed a similar sort of brass employment strategy.
In other markets, a certain certification is assigned an unusually high value. In southwest Michigan, for example, the IBM AS/400 enjoyed great popularity for years. Regardless of how this came to be, it created a market that strongly favored certified AS/400 Professional System Administrators and certified RPG programmers, while those certified in competing UNIX platforms found the job market relatively thin.
This unpredictability has caused me to favor certifications that don't expire (especially CompTIA's) whenever possible.
I would recommend Computer Engineering or Electrical Engineering instead of a Computer Science degree. It seems that the poster's networking experience would be more aligned with the hardware perspective that these degrees offer.
Can't the same be said for a 4-year degree as well?
Yep. That's why we give tests to potential applicants. When you come in, you are set in front of a computer, and given a program to write or a problem to troubleshoot. So far, a CS degree hasn't meant much about who will pass the test.
I think you're right. In the late 90s, everyone I met asked me what certifications I had -- I told them none other than a Big 10 University degree (not in CS), although I had taken a few classes from the vendor-labeled certification "programs" to get myself up to speed (with the Cisco routing classes being the most useful in a general sense). They were often horrified, but that was the only standard they had to judge people on. I kind of felt awkward, but I'd look at the certification programs and wonder what a waste it all was, especially since some really wanted classroom hours PLUS the tests, and it all cost more than *I* was willing to pay or manegement would pay.
Now I'm glad -- I met plenty of morons with certs who really didn't belong in their jobs. I feel bad for the guys who are really good with no college, a pile of certs and no job -- the market will be hard on them, if only because many employers make a college degree a required prerequisite in addition to experience.
That's why we give tests to potential applicants.
Interview tests are so important! Eg: a simple "frontline PC support" job. Ask the applicant to put memory in a machine or install a hard disk. Leave a ground wrist-strap in the tools. You'll be amazed at how many of them won't use it (or even know what it is!)
Not that stray static wastes as much as in the CMOS days but if it's not your equipment, you should protect it as best you can. Oh try reversing IDE cables and asking them to format a disk using fdisk.. etc etc etc..
The number of people that think they're IT-ready because they built a PC out of spare parts is staggering. They should be at WalMart|Best Buy|Future Shop selling, not working under the hood.
Trolling is a art,
Let me let you in on something.. a certification means nothing but that you can pass a test.
I want people that have good troubleshooting skills. I dont give a rats ass if they know that the boot and system partitions of a NTFS install are named backwards because of morons at microsoft.
I dont care if they have a Cisco certification, I care that they have enough troubleshooting skills to find the correct answer with the tools they are given.
Expierience and troubleshooting skills mean 10,000% more than any worthless paper that says you know some obscure terminology and concepts that are 100% worthless in the real world.
BTW, I did go get sertified after I was hired, because the company paid for it,I let all of it lapse as over 50% of the information needed to pass a certification test is worthless. (This is MCSE, A++, N++ and Cisco... the Novell one is really worth something, but almost nobody uses novell anymore)
I have a team that can solve problems and create correct solutions 80% faster than the best that corperate has in their NOC and IT department at corperate headquarters, we are always answering questions for them and was nominated into the circle of success 2 years in a row and all members have recieved many awars for excellence.
If you come to me with expierience, I look at that, I could care less about certifications as I have found them to be worthless indicators of skill. show me what you can do, pieces of paper you bought do not impress me.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
In the 14 or so years I've worked in I.T. (in various capacities, ranging from a tech. behind the counter in a small "mom and pop" store, to support specialist in a multi-company corporate environment, to freelance consulting, to on-site service companies), I've run into the whole spectrum of "computer professionals".
Almost without exception, the highest paid of them didn't correlate with the most knowledgeable of them.
Also, finding a correlation between having multiple certs. and being "better than the other I.T. guys" at performing their job was difficult. Quite frankly, some of the "best and brightest" I.T. people I've ever run across weren't certified in anything at all. They simply worked with the stuff "hands on" for years and years, learning the facts that really matter, without the "fluff" and largely useless theory that comes with the certs. (If you get your MCSE for example, much of it will test your ability to construct a complete LAN/server infrastructure that best meets the needs of a group of hypothetical users. That's all well and good, but it's utterly useless 99% of the time. How often do you get hired on with your MCSE to build a network and infrastructure for a company from the ground up?? If they're hiring, it's because they already HAVE that set up and they need help administering it! You simply don't have to concern yourself with all the small details of why everything was set up. In fact, your MCSE knowledge might well tell you things are designed poorly - but trying to change that upsets some office politics and then you're booted out the door.)
What I guess I'm getting at is - the MOST VALUABLE thing you can have on your side is KNOWING PEOPLE. Make connections! A good friend who has some hiring power in a company that needs another computer guy is worth 10 certifications. Looking back on it now, I believe every job I ever had was at least partially due to knowing somebody. (Heck, even my very first job doing telemarketing for a carpet cleaners was obtained because a good friend's girlfriend already worked there, and told me they had openings if I was interested. Then, she put in a good word or two for me - and I was hired.)
> Makes you more well rounded and it's 4 easy tests.
This is exactly why the tech certs are little better than ass-wiping paper in many cases.
Any test that is easy (in the tech field) is inherently worthless. It means nothing to the prospective employer since any monkey could pass it. It means nothing to the applicant because the job applicant queue is... full of monkeys who passed it.
Easy tests are only useful to companies who get paid to train for and deliver said tests.
That sounds odd, but you'd be suprised how it turns out.
The number of companies who are looking for a strictly networking skilled individual will be relatively small compared to the number of companies looking for a Network Admin who can administrator Windows boxes and Cisco equipment.
Part of the crunch was that companies began consolidating their IT department. Having wide-ranging skills instead of targetted skills became much more valuable. Some companies went from having a separate Windows NT/2000 admin and Network Engineer to having one guy who could do both. Others have shifted to having two guys who can do both (which makes a lot more sense to begin with).
If you are a purely Cisco guy, your best bets for jobs are going to be with telcom companies, ISPs, and very large companies that put a premium on network usage (insurance companies, banks, etc...basically the entire financial sector). Those are the sorts of positions listed as Network Engineer, IP Engineering, etc.
If you are a Cisco/Windows guy, your options are all of the above plus many more, usually smaller companies, some of which may have only a few people in their entire IT department. You'll also be more attractive for consulting companies and equipment resellers. I know that a lot of of people think that the heydays of consulting are over, but the consulting company that I just left grew nearly 20% in revenues and headcount in 2003, so there are still good opportunities out there. (And in case you're wondering why I left, one of their customers offerred me a position with a promotion, more pay, more responsibility, etc.)
It may not be what you're interested in doing, but IMHO, when you are unemployed "what you're interested in doing" gets trumped by "something in the same field as what I'm interested in doing that pays the bills".
Good luck.
I don't have formal training in either. I got the job because at the time, I was willing to work for not alot of $$$, I was a quick study, and the person who was currently doing it had absolutely no idea.
It's 3 years later, I'm still working there. The $$$ still isn't great, but I have a job forever if I want it. I've learned a pile of stuff, and more every day. We are slowly and steadily growing and expanding into new markets.
A recent freind of mine work(ed) in the same field (graphic art) for over 30 years. He made the mistake of trying to be a 'one man band', in areas that he was not very good at (recording studio, DJ, Video, etc.)
He lost his shirt, and his sanity.
He was appling for jobs in his 'real' field and was told by the HR person that there were over 300 applicants with similar qualifications, but less experience (fresh new Graphic Art students). All these people, and no jobs.
He now lives in northern Minnesota, trying to get his life together.
My longtime pal (25 years out of 32) is working for a larger nonprofit as a Network Admin. He went to school to be a psycologist, quit 2 weeks before he graduated, and got a job at the U of M in the IT department.
He didn't have any formal training either. He now has a few certs under his belt, and has an entire room full of old PCs, Sparcs and Macs that he messes with at home and takes the experience to work.
We were discussing the irony of us having jobs, while there are people who would blow us away in the certification/experience dept. He thought we just happened to be at the right place at the right time. We both read /., and are well aware of how lucky we are to be working in fields where there are more qualified people sitting at home watching a Sci-Fi Twilight Zone marathon.
I guess my advice would be to screw the certs, leave some stuff off your resume, and try something at a tangent to your experience or something not at all related.
Move to a smaller town, and look at smaller companies .(I live in rural Minnesota, and although I'd make more $$$ doing the same job in the Cities, I would also be competing with a huge population of more experienced people for the same job.)
One thing I've often thought about is how /. has an impressive amount of smart people that are unemployed, and if they all worked together on something, they would be a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps a 'distributed' start-up of some kind - I would think that the OS community would be knowlegable in working with widely located people.
Like I said, not very helpful. I'm just a musician who got lucky.
A+ of all things is what got me my last job. My whole department was outsourced, and the incoming company was under obligation to take a few of the old techs in.
Men with a decade more experience were passed over for the two people with an otherwise worthless A+.
My state (Minnesota) will pay for certifications and training to assist the unemployed. If yours does too, you've got nothing to loose.
/* Back off man, I'm a scientist. */
Actually, this is the worst legal job market in institutional memory (surpassing the Great Bloodletting of 1995), particularly on the west coast. Unfortunate, since IAAL. I hear the benefits and pay at W*l*m*rt are stupendous, though, so we all have hope. I don't know as to whether the poster should get re-certified or not, but it sounds to me as if the cost/benefit goes against the certification.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Use GnuPG ferpetessake!
Not really. The value you get out of a Ph.D. is the reputation you get for your research and publications. If you don't keep up with that, it's just a meaningless bunch of letters.
THE NERD IS THE COMPUTER.
Ignoring the case where capitalism collapses (which I think it will but let's not go there), I think what will happen is that USA will have to devalue their currency. Devaluing the currency will automatically make imports more expensive and result in the elimination of the present situation where people consume more than they "should". However, devaluing the currency will decrease US standard of living.
:) I think if foreigners stop investing in USA, USA will collapse. This will happen because USA won't be able to pay off the debt (or at least get it into manageable levels). Difficulties on the debt front will cause USA to significantly cut government, eliminating most branches of governemnt. This will throw even more unemployed workers into the mix. These actions will be similar to what happens in many poor countries (with debt problems). In these poor countries, because of IMF pressure, the government is shrunk, resulting in many unemployed government employees. This results in higher unemployed and it never EVER gets better. One just needs to follow Argentina (when do you think it will get better?). Ultimately, USA will collapse and this will bring down capitalism. When capitalism goes down, all the capitalist countries (like 90% of hte world) will collapse. Capitalism is a global system so when USA collapses the whole world will collapse. It's not like fascism, mercantilism, communism, monarchy, or others--these are limited to one country/region. For example, when so-called Communism collapsed, it had almost zero impact on other countries. When capitalism collapses, USA will switch to fascism (start blaming all the immigrants, hispanics, blacks, etc for the collapse). And there will be World War III. The UN will collapse just before the start of the war, just like how the League of Nations collapsed just before WWII.
:)
--OFF TOPIC--
If you want to know what I think will happen with the capitalism collapse case, here it is. Ok, this is just my theory and yes, it sounds very foolish to the capitalists
That's my theory of the collapse of capitalism. There is a bit more which I didn't mention (eg. instead of debt, a class war may cause the collapse too). I know there are a lot of if's and but's. This is also pure speculation with no "proof". So don't base your life on this
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
In fact, it's more likely that the global economic depression would lead to a permanent reduction in the standard of living in the USA. I agree there most certainly is a financial bottleneck on the horizon for the USA as the baby boomers start retiring in the next few years. However, that alone is not a sufficient trigger for a collapse of capitalism. Capitalism has survived world wars, pandemics, depressions, recessions, bubbles, scandals, corruption, etc.
Now if we are talking about 100 years from now when energy reserves will be running low and population extremely high, then perhaps. But that's a depletion of the main engine of capitalism--energy. However, it's more likely that we will have invented new technology that allows us to outrun that energy crisis.
I lost all of my CISCO certification in October. I have been way to busy to take the test, and could really give two shites. I work on networking equipment everyday. I already proved I can be certified, as I was. Why keep it up to date, unless you are talking years later.
When we hire someone, we never take certification as the be all of what someone is technically capable of. I know many people with MS, LINUX, CISCO, etc certification. They know nothing. What they do kn ow is how to study and take a test. 2 years later and they are still not that good. Do to that, they are alwats lookinh for a job.
I would keep up the the technology and changes, and wait down the road to waste the money. Unless someone is going to pay and, and all bills, to get recertified.
I think this is a true statement, however unfair or bad you think it is. I got my current job because my dad was friends with the director of human resources of where I work (same church). So I got my foot in the door there. He didn't just give me the job, but with out that contact I probably wouldn't have been considered. I was contacted by a family friend about my next job opportunity. He also went to our church and was president of a company. They were looking, but I like where I was more. So really most of my opportunities and even side jobs are because of family friends, church members or people I've known.
:wq
It's interesting that you mentioned computer games. I was looking into it (since I'm unemployed :( and I love computer games :))... how the hell are you suppposed to break into it? They ask for VERY SPECIFIC stuff? They don't want a C++ programmer. They don't want an AI programmer either. They want a programmer that has programmed AI for a role playing game. hmm... that pretty much rules out everyone except probably 5,000 who actually worked on RPG games :(
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Sivaram Velauthapillai
Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places
capitalism is long since dead in the US. we have more a mixed economy. de tocqueville said that the republic will be destroyed when they find they can vote themselves money. well look at us today. we have to parties, each vying to spend more, each candidate saying essentially, "my program will give..." holy crap. that ain't capitalism. the problem why capitalism will decline is that democracy allows one to group to legally take/steal from another. i.e. the welfare state. i would argue that capitalism died in 1935 with the change in the supreme court, approving the new deal. the depression was a monetary phenomenom, not fiscal. and the new deal did not do a thing to end it. since then, anyhting the government does is okay. most of the govenrment spending is unconstitutional. social security, welfare, this fscking medicare drug bill, etc. now, every lefty /.'er will argue up and down that we need to spend this and that, government shold do this, and that. fine. but does it square with the constitution. no. so why do our courts overlook it. one, things are so ingrained in our society, removal would be worse. (not that i think so). two, it is nt that they think it is ok, but that they don't care. like with the second ammendment. it means what is say, and says what it means. but they okay gun control because they don't care about the constitution.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
I'm not sure if it's still true or if it was ever true, but about ten years ago I was told that there are over thirty thousand licensed laywers in San Diego County alone. I do know for certain that my brother in-law is a lawyer and he doesn't get much work. He just took on a client that owned a bar who is paying him in bottles of booze and not many at that.