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Linux Centrino Driver Update
Edy52285 writes "An article on News.com talks about how Intel has been, and still is, dragging on releasing their Linux drivers for Centrino. Intel is reluctant to release its drivers as open source since doing so would reveal secrets about their wireless hardware. Linux in currently unable to take advantage of Centrino's wireless networking devices, without, that is, prying $20 from your thin wallet to buy Linuxant's DriverLoader (discussed in an earlier story). Will Swope (Intel's General Manager of Software and Solutions Group) said in an interview said "What I believe will happen is we will end up having a Linux compatibility driver that is not open source at first, then designing future drivers in such a way that they are open source but will not expose intellectual property," Intel seem to be taking its time on releasing the drivers, and even in the article, there is a lack of any commitment on a date or under what conditions the drivers will be released." Also, someone pointed out that it's worth checking out ndiswrapper for the driver.
Hardware details -- it's like a chef not wanting to talk about his latest recipie, because that's the big secret. Sure, you and I probably don't have the cookware (hardware fab plant), but other restaurants (AMD and Qualcomm) would probably be very interested.
Not true. I'm using the open-source ndiswrapper project together with the win32 drivers, and it works, although a bit buggy. See here
...I won't buy a "Centrino" laptop. That's fine, since Apple's laptops are looking more appealing anyway, and still run Linux. Some of those new AMD offerings in mobile computing, as well as Tranmeta's installation in some of the Sony lines make them nice options as well.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Controlling a microwave radio with bits on a data bus from a digital processor issuing an interrupt signal is an invention and highly protected intellectual property. Please respect that. Jobs are at stake.
http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/
This is an open source implementation that allows linux users to load their windows drivers and use their WiFi cards.
Its still very new, but there has been some success with the centrino chipset, as well as Admtek, Atheros and Broadcom cards.
Why don't they do like nVidia, release a pre-compiled binary driver core and an open-source, compilable interface, which hopefully will manage to unify all diferences between different kernel versions and distros ?
Alvie
We had exactly this problem.
Our solution was to write a proprietry driver, and then write a wrapper for this to interface it to the kernel. Release the wrapper under the GPL, then release our proprietry software as closed source.
Only buy opensource supported products. The demand
will drive the market. This is also what we would need to do as soon as the PC gets locked up with
the new Award Bios. Demand has to be so low that it
will just about drive the home PC vendors out of business. then and only then DRM will be dropped.
I'm stocking up on some hardware now, that way if my
desktop or firewall does die, I can build a new one.
Much of the actual work of the Centrino wireless hardware is performed in software, much like the "Winmodems" that were so widespread a few years ago (and, I guess, still are - does anyone make a modem with an actual UART on it anymore?) Intel is hesitant to provide the information that will allow people to write a driver for Linux, because that information would necessarily provide 100% of the software engineering necessary for someone else to create a Centrino-like hardware solution.
Blogging Weight Loss, Distance Education, and more at verlin.com
Think like a capitalist and vote with your wallet.
Until they have a proper Linux driver, buy an AMD based system instead.
AFAIK, the radio emissions from the wireless card are regulated (by the FCC in the US?) so as to avoid interference with other spectrum users. Much of this regulation is acheived through the close-source drivers.
Using modified drivers, it would be possible to make the card emit different frequencies or more power, thereby violating the usage licence.
Other chipmakers, I presume. So that nobody could produce an alternative wireless card to go with a Pentium M processor or some such.
But wouldn't anyone who's capable of designing and producing his own chipset be able to dissect the Centrino architecture and reengineer it, either by careful blackbox testing or by actually taking a microscope and looking at the chips? Am I way off mark here?
But if it's not other chipmakers they are protecting this from, if it actually is a software issue, then they are simply dancing to the tune of Microsoft due to whatever behind-the-scenes agreement they have with them.
"Intel is hesitant to provide the information that will allow people to write a driver for Linux, because that information would necessarily provide 100% of the software engineering necessary for someone else to create a Centrino-like hardware solution."
Well, that sucks for them. Perhaps they should have built a real wireless device rather than taking away CPU time for something that is best handled by a seperate device.
This revealed, do most linux users even want a Centrino-based laptop?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
M-Systems' DiscOnChips are very nice flash chips which we use in some ThinClients. While there is support for those in the 2.4.x kernel tree it never worked for us. So we took M-Systems drivers.
.o file which is the real driver which does the real work. This way you can build kernel modules for you favourite kernel with M-Systems not releasing any "critical" source code.
:-)
.o file which links together a kernel module. Et voila: Neutrino support for every kernel without releasing the real source code !
Now they seem to be in a similar boat: they don't like to give out their intellectual property. Their solution is what looks like a driver stub and a binary
This practice means that you can't compile the driver into the kernel, you have to build a module (since the GPL does not allow building that propietary driver into the GPL'ed kernel, but allows non-GPL'ed kernel modules since they are not part of the resulting program or so... at least this what I recall Linus saying about that subject).
But having a module does the job as well, using an initrd we can boot from M-Systems DoC perfectly (in Real Mode they are accessible like a harddisk). The extra-effort is worth it since in our experience they are a lot more reliable than Flash IDE Chips, and reliablity is an important factor in embedded systems like ThinClients
Intel could do it the same way: release a driver stub and a binary
I know that the word is taboo around here, but isn't this precicely what (hardware) patents are for? From what I understand, they are pretty easy to get.
Please respect that. Jobs are at stake.
Well, they were. The last of the engineers were fired last Thursday.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
Read this post about using the Windows NDIS centrino driver (and other drivers) on FreeBSD, using the "NDISulator" (a.k.a. "Project Evil"). See this post for details on Project Evil. And unlike the linuxant thing, this is free.
This revealed, do most linux users even want a Centrino-based laptop?
Hells yeah! I'm within a year of replacing my old PIII 550Mhz Compaq laptop, which has been a trusty and faithful machine until recently but is now starting to give me hardware problems.
My next machine would be a Dell 300M running SUSE because it's ultra-portable, but thanks to Intel dragging their feet my next machine will probably be a G5 powerbook running Fink. Actually, Dell gets part-credit. Their recent quality control problems have made me suspect the reliability of their hardware.
That's the way the market works. Hey Intel, thanks for playing, but this ball just went over the fence!
If this were Usenet, I'd killfile the lot of you.
Trying to obscure hardware by only handing out binary-only drivers and hiding the API from the average programmer does not help at all against professional counterfeiting / industrial espionage. But it's quite amusing to see a company like Intel play the security-by-obscurity song.
They should know better.
next generation of laptops considering Broadcom & Philips have already cooked up
their own even lower power chipset.
I won't make any claims on the validity of these numbers{---Google Cache
Since i couldn't find the Yahoo Article they mention
- $12 a chipset
- 97% less power consumption than Intel Centrino in standby mode
- 70% less transmit power consumption
- 90% less receive power consumption
- 802.11g "not that far away"
~And this was October 2003
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
These card are relatively inexpensive. There's no particular reason to pick a Centrino laptop because of the built-in WLAN support.
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Intel's entire strategy over the last 10 years has been precisely to move as many functions as possible into the CPU. This enables them to justify selling processors with far more horsepower than anybody needs for word processing or browsing, and it lets them assert control and influence over a much larger fraction of the hardware market.
That's why they keep adding more multimedia-oriented units to their architecture; it's also why they designed the P4's memory architecture to be mainly good at streaming blocks of video data.
Their strategy has been relatively successful up to now. There's just no way that they would design a totally stand-alone wireless solution to be tightly marketed with their CPUs.
In fact, just from the Centrino marketing material, you'd get the impression that the CPU itself is handling the wireless functions. Perhaps they plan to move that logic into a future mobile CPU chip.
Distrust begets distrust. Secrets beget snooping. If someone (Intel) is going to be so damned hypocritical and lavish in Linux's support of it's product lines (especially the nice early Itanium support while Microsoft was getting is OS finished) they had better not complain when someone "hacks" a solution out of the chip.
It's like the who DVD-CSS mess. Linux people just wanted to be able to watch DVD's without runnning Windows. What resulted was a hack that made convertion of DVD's into cheap Divx copies easy and painless.
It feels like dating someone who never trusts you, never earns your trust (or respect) and goes hysterical when you don't behave exactly how they want. Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend, frankly.
Murray Todd Williams
The problem lies in Intels inherent desire to eat spare cpu cycles. Why? Because the more cpu cycles wasted on things better handled in hardware the more incentive to upgrade your cpu.
Those spare cycles could do something better than doing the hardwares work. Microsoft wants to have it all in windows if they can. That way they can tie the whole platform to windows cementing the monopoly on desktops. MS and Intel have had their jousts and Intel have always folded under the pressure. Intels project to make hardware more platform agnostic was stopped by MS who saw a threat to their Wintel Symbios.
There is nothing stopping eg. device drivers from being implemented much lower down like in the actual hardware, talking only in pre standardized APIs. Whats stopping that great innovation that would put a stop to driver problems and make it much more easy to develop new products?
Guess once!
HTTP/1.1 400
But competing restaurants (AMD, Qualcomm) have the resources to send some samples of the meal to a chemical analysis lab (disassemble the object code), and learn the secrets that way.
I've simply removed from my laptop the Intel Pro Wireless 2100 WiFi Mini-PCI card and replaced it with a Atheros 802.11a/b/g chipset. The Multiband Atheros Driver for Wifi (aka MadWifi) is well supported under Linux. It even has a great FAQ.
The card I bought is an IBM 11a/b/g Wireless LAN MiniPCI Adapter (IBM Part Number: 31P9701), and works flawlessly under REHL3.
No its not....
Intel has made it very clear when they announced the Centrino chipset they would support Linux.
Well they haven't, their video chipset has a broken bios and no documentation and their wireless chipset has no documentation.
For the videochip there is some binary only stuff that only works with a very limited set of kernels and X versions.
For the wireless chip there still isn't even a driver.
The promises are getting dated and the hardware is getting dated. The only thing new comming out of intel is PR bullshit.
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
--It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
(AMD and Qualcomm) would probably be very interested.
Those guys are probably the least interested. Their engineers know exactly how to make similar devices. The only ones that might be interested are some third world country's bootleg industry. And they can/will reverse engineer the devices anyhow.
All these "Oh, we can't release the specs, that would reveal our secrets!", are pretty full of it. There are very, very few hardware/software solutions that aren't widely known. It gets really silly when companies such as NVidia refuse to release info to the XFree community, due to their hardware secrets. For heaven's sake! Even the insides of such (more or less) proprietary devices as the PS2, the GameCube, and so on are well known...
Odds are Intel does know better than you armchair engineers.
Having worked there up until a few years ago, I'd say that most of them agree with the "armchair engineers" and think it's silly to try to hide stuff this way. But there are (lets see, where's that Post Anonymously button?) flaming morons in various management positions (mostly marketing) that are totally clueless. AMD, et al. have the resources to disassemble the binary only drivers anyway, so the only thing you are doing is slowing the adoption by technically oriented users, but they can not / will not see this.
We even had people like Linus, ESR, BP, etc. come out and do dog & pony shows about why it's a Good Idea to open things like this up, but the only thing that seems to be working is a gradual process of selective retirement of the morons. (Intel's culling process to rid itself of the clueless can best be described as "brutal".) Saddly (since I still have stock & and friends in Intel) there is a fair voluntary exodus of the cluefull as well.
-- Anonomous Coward
P.S. The funniest part of the dog & pony show was when one of the PHPs listed among the downside of open sourcing the "fact" that it would piss off MS.
The legal department people who were there were not clueless and came down on the poor idiot like a ton of lead. From the hurt look on his face I think he expected them to side with him.
Have Intel invented the WinWiFi?
Didn't anybody learn from the WinPrinter and WinModem farces?
Err, the whole point of "Centrino" is marketing, pure and simple.
The term "Centrino" is a 100% pure marketing term. There is absolutely ZERO technology connected to it, it just means that you are using an Intel Pentium M processor with a an Intel motherboard chipset and an Intel wifi chip.
The trick behind all this though is that if you combine those three elements then Intel will give you MUCHO-$$$ for marketing purposes. Last year Intel gave out $300 million to the likes of Toshiba and Dell to market their Centrino laptops I would not be at all surprised if it turned out that it was CHEAPER to add in an Intel WiFi chip than to have no wifi chip at all once you factor in the advertising bonuses. So that $12 Broadcom chip could well be $14 or $15 more expensive than an Intel one.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Signed register sets is a much better solution which is both more secure and more open. Intel can design hardware that only accepts register sets that have been signed with Intel's private key. This would make it impossible (as opposed to just inconvenient) to use the forbidden frequencies, so the FCC would be happy. And it would be possible to write open-source drivers to load the signed register sets without compromising security or FCC certifiability.
Litigious bastards