NPR's Car Talk Dumping RealMedia

olcrazypete writes: "Click and Clack are apparently fed up with Real Networks. They have switched to Windows Media Player format. 'Why? Because, for a long time, we've had tons of complaints about RealNetworks. And the one that ticks us off the most is the perceived trickery they use to sell their premium products. This is just our opinion, mind you, but it's shared by enough of our listeners, that we finally decided to take action.' The whole story is here . My favorite line: 'It stinks so much that it even makes Microsoft look good by comparison. That's something, huh?'"

Comments

Realmedia

[Bishop, Martin]

I would like to write an open letter to the people of RealMedia, telling them how I disp *BUFFERING*

Re:Realmedia

[The Snowman]

I promptly uninstalled the garbage.

You installed it in the first place?

RealPlayer my ass. AdPlayer more like it. You get this huge window full of advertisements and flashy widgets, and maybe 10% of the window is covered by actual video in blocky, shitty quality that jumps and skips constantly. Even Windows Media Player, for all its DRM crap, has the majority of the window covered by the video.

I remember back when I had phone line modem that video would pause every few seconds as RealPlayer loaded up more ads. Of course it wouldn't just pause, it would skip those parts of the movie.

Re:Realmedia

[AlaskanUnderachiever]

You know you can download the "older" players and then just manually load the newer codecs. . . THEN DITCH THAT POS and get yourself media player classic. Runa all the codecs, has none of the adware.

Re:Realmedia

[achurch]

Maybe there will be an open surce equivalent soon that will let you write the whole godam stream to a file before it even starts playing.

mplayer -ovc copy -oac copy -o foo.avi rtsp://whatever

(And what does "disp" mean? News about English slang is tragically lacking over here in the land of the rising sun . . .)

Re:Realmedia

[Ravadill]

Actually I think he's referring to the excellent "Media Player Classic" a GPL "re-write" of mplayer2, it has all of features that the original did (small size, clean interface) and a heap of extra's such as Realmedia/Quicktime and even flash playback support using the IE plugin controls. http://sourceforge.net/projects/guliverkli/

Re:Realmedia

[dnoyeb]

I think though that real has lots of issue.

1. its HARD to find the free player. They keep saying "free player here" but then nothing be for sale ones show up, then you find the little link hidden in the corner somewhere.

2. they want email for download. I know you can enter a fake one. But I get tired of it all.

3. They will install loads of *extra* garbage that MS wont. (Or MS is much better and covert-ops)

4. It will take you weeks to learn all the tons of things you need to turn off to keep that thing from harrassing you.

5. if you don't register, it keeps asking you each time you try to play a file. You get choice OK-Cancel (among other issues) which implies either register, or don't play. Quicken does the same horrible thing with their update feature...

I used to like realplayer better than MS. But if they are going to be equally as corrupt, I'll stick with MS since I already have it :D Real player was always better on the mp3s though.

Re:Realmedia

[Zeinfeld]

It will take you weeks to learn all the tons of things you need to turn off to keep that thing from harrassing you.

This is the reason I removed realplayer from my systems. Along with comet cursor Real inc has the distinction of being one of the few sites I have blocked using the 'parental filter' feature of my firewall. I don't want anyone else downloading that crap onto my systems either.

One of the depressing facts of comp sci is that everything gets copied blind. I have no idea why every 'mejaah player' feels the need to support sixty different 'skins' none of which support the native look and feel of the machine O/S. I'm not a 14 year old kid, I want a tool not a kalaidescope.

I use media player because it has the fewest whizz-bang features of any of the players - you still have to turn some off. It also does a pretty good job of buffering enough content to play without jitter most of the time.

One thing I have never quite worked out is why the audio/video sync on so many players is so poor. That is the one feature that has the single biggest effect on quality. Even with a really fat pipe I usually end with a lag of about 2 secs at the end of a lot of clips.

This stuff is not rocket science you know.

So why not QuickTime?

[Ninja Programmer]

Not that I would ever endorse anything from Apple, but their streaming media technology seems fairly competent.

Re:So why not QuickTime?

[prockcore]

Not that I would ever endorse anything from Apple, but their streaming media technology seems fairly competent.

We tried to do streaming media with Darwin Streaming Server.. the problem is that you need Quicktime Pro in order to make streaming quicktimes.

Also, DSS doesn't do on-demand. It works like TV, you can't start at the beginning, you have to "tune in" to the broadcast.

As crappy as realmedia is, we can do live broadcasts, as well as let people listen in from the beginning, all with the same stream. Once we find a solution that lets us do both for relatively cheap, we'll switch.

DSS is almost there, they just need the ability to do on-demand streaming.

Re:So why not QuickTime?

[bonch]

After all, it couldn't just be shoddy Windows programming. It HAS to be evil Microsoft, even though thousands upon thousands of competing products run just fine under Windows, even better than many Microsoft products themselves.

I guess it's just easier to make vague implications without actually accusing--the major tool of baseless propaganda, which we all lovingly refer to as Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt...

Why lock in listeners?

[Gunfighter]

Switch to something a little more open minded... like Nullsoft's Shoutcast. I listen to some pretty nice UK radio stations from across the pond with KDE's Noatun whilst I code thanks to Shoutcast. I don't see any reason why its not usable for radio broadcasts like Click & Clack.

Linux and FreeBSD options

[Larne]

For those who don't know already, both mplayer and xine play streaming windows media just fine on Linux/FreeBSD/etc.

Why not Quicktime?

[BWJones]

Seriously though. These guys (Click and Clack) are Macheads so why not quicktime? The Quicktime streaming server fundamentals are under the Darwin open source and free paradigms, there are no licensing fees as there are with Windows, and hey, it's so easy to use. So, what gives?

The company they keep

[93 Escort Wagon]

I used to like Real. Even after the debacle with the spyware in their jukebox, I was willing to give them a second chance. But I learned my lesson somewhere around G2. I was installing their latest player on my wife's Windows box, and up pops a Gator installer!

Of course it also didn't help my opinion of them that they provided my state with Maria Cantwell. :-P

Adult Industry

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Back when Real Media was using the adult entertainment industry to get their hold on the streaming media market, they had a special link for adult websites that made it much more obvious how to download the free player. Of course back then finding the free player link from their main page wasn't so hard either.

Divx.com is guilty of the same thing. They have a free codec package that will work fine with Windows Media Player. But it isn't in their table of their three main products. Also if you do find it, and just go with the install default config options, you'll see a Divx watermark at the start of every video. This can be turned off easy enough from the "Decoder Configuration Utility".

Four words

[stox]

Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Great move

[theatre_freak]

I can't say that I blame them. I haven't had RealPlayer on any of my PCs for ages. I went to fetch the most recent incarnation a few days ago and was completely blown away that what ought to be a relatively simple audio/video streaming client had grown to be more than 14MB.

As much as it doesn't sit well with me, Media Player is included with Windows. It requires no downloads, it doesn't bombard me with ads, and it seems to work pretty well.

Why not Shoutcast, OGG, etc.

[molafson]

Here's the main reason they likely decided to use Windows Media instead of "free" alternatives or Quicktime: The people at Car Talk want to make it easy for their listeners to tune in. They know that the majority of PCs in the world already have the Windows Media Player sitting there on the desktop waiting to be clicked, or the plugin already tied to Internet Explorer.

The transition will therefore be as seamless as possible for the listeners -- a simple matter of "click here" and the program will play. No messing around with downloading new clients, configuring, or what have you.

Whether you (open source booster) think this is right or wrong is another matter entirely.

Never go back

[Konster]

Go here to get Real Alternative.

It plays Real Audio crap without the need for Real's crapware.

Windows only, I do believe.

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alterna ti ve.htm

Re:Real already changed the site in response to th

[joe_bruin]

no they did not. they are still playing games.

go to http://www.real.com/.
the headline reads: Introducing RealPlayer 10
subheadline: New Powerful Free
with a big image with a big, bright "Free" logo.

click on the free logo takes you here:
http://www.real.com/realplayer.html?pp=home&src=01 2904realhome_1_3_2_1_1_1

there are two big "Download Now" buttons on this site. both lead to the non-free premium player. in the margin on the right, with grey text over a grey background, there is a link to the free player.

that is bullshit. i know the free player is there, and that real plays tricks, so i specifically look for it. the average internet user, on the other hand, may not be that aware.

real are still assholes, and i am glad cartalk is moving away from their format because of their shitty tactics.

File Types

[Anonymous Coward]

To me file types are like a langauge. They should be free and open. Could you imagine the mess we'd be in if we had to pay a fee to use the english language. Or if someone kept it hidden so that it could only be used with their translators. For the man that could patent it, it would be a gold mine.

Behind the scenes

[Alien Being]

Car Talk's technical advisor, Meg Ahertz said that the RealMedia is complete bogosity. "I tried to reason with their VP, Hugh Jass, but he redirected me to their lawyers, Dewey, Cheatham and Howe." At that point, I turned the matter over to our staff mediators, Sue First and Bernadette Bridge. The rest is history.

"On the Media" uses downloadable MP3

[for(;;);]

And it's the best show on NPR, bar none. They started offering this a month or two back, and the next week had a sample from their deluge of "thank you" letters.

Click and Clack probably haven't noticed this -- busy, as they always are, laughing at their own jokes.

Re:Surprise?

[1iar_parad0x]

Actually, they're both pretty smart.

Tom Bio
Ray's Bio

Tom had scholarships to both MIT and Harvard, worked as an engineer, got an MBA, earned a PhD, taught for several years as a professor, taught international business abroad, started his own do-it-yourself auto repair shop (very hacker like), and has a successful auto repair show. Oh, and Ray, the "stupid" one, went to MIT too.

Also, if you listen to their show, every week they have a math problem for their listeners to solve. The show is great. They're both pretty funny and the show is surprisingly entertaining. Who said gearheads are stupid?

This may be a bit off-topic

[jogie112]

But one person finds this reply useful, I'll be happy. :) There exists an alternative to downloading the horrid Real Player. Try googling "Real Alternative". It is a freely available codec that can work with any standard media player (such as Media Player Classic). Infact, I think it comes bundled with MPC. As far as I know, it works well.

Re:Why not just use MP3?

[ajlitt]

Because they sell archives through Audible. Using a streaming format with DRM at least provides some ass-coverage against redistribution. Remember, Car Talk is not free-as-in-beer. Your local NPR affiliate pays a hefty chunk of change for Car Talk, All Things Considered, and other radio shows you all take for granted.

Re:Real already changed the site in response to th

[dazed-n-confused]

"in the margin on the right, with grey text over a grey background, there is a link to the free player."

Reminds me of this:

"It's the wild colour scheme that freaks me," said Zaphod whose love affair with this ship had lasted almost three minutes into the flight, "Every time you try to operate on of these weird black controls that are labelled in black on a black background, a little black light lights up black to let you know you've done it. What is this? Some kind of galactic hyperhearse?"

From The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, by Douglas Adams.

Format wins for Microsoft

[robla]

...are just that: wins for Microsoft.

I'm not going to be an apologist for RealNetworks past actions. RealNetworks is a big enough company, that Jamie Zawinski's quote "[G]reat things are accomplished by small groups of people who are driven, who have unity of purpose. The more people involved, the slower and stupider their union is." I'll admit we've done slow and stupid things. However, there are certain things that can only be done by big companies, no matter how slow and stupid, which is why I haven't written a similar rant.

However, I'd like to point out that, in the "slow and stupid" vein, we're slowly getting better. The RealPlayer 10 beta isn't perfect, but it's better, and I imagine that things will be better in the final release.

Moreover, we've got a lot of really great things going on in the Helix Community. We've got the Helix Player for Linux, which just the won Best Open Source Project award at LinuxWorld. That means that if there's something that annoys you about it, you can fix it. It's based on Gtk, and the engine code is all cross-platform, so someone could theoretically port it to Windows even.

So, we're trying. I'm hoping that folks could cut us a little slack. I'm hoping that the Linux folks out there could help us change Car Talk's mind, since Windows Media is a pretty Linux-hostile format.

Thanks
Rob Lanphier
Helix Troublemaker
RealNetworks

Seconded!

[leonbrooks]

I have one customer who uses AutoCAD and therefore (until recently, anyway) MS-Windows. Machine A, running MS-Windows 98, plots fine. Machine B, running MS-Windows 98 (and the same versions of everything) refuses to plot to the same (LAN-connected) plotter.

AutoDesk advise upgrading to Windows ME, so B is duly upgraded, and fails, and is wiped and reinstalled, and works. Hurrah! Both machines can plot.

Management now decides to shoot for homogeneity, so upgrades to ME on A as well... and it stops plotting. Wipe and reinstall doesn't help. Wipe and revert to 98 does.

Exit one technician, stage left, screaming.

Re:Real already changed the site in response to th

[Moraelin]

Well, the web site I could live with, seein' as you can eventually find the free link. Waste of time and lame, yes, but still... it's a one time affair.

What really got my goat when I could last be arsed to try RealOne, though, was that it was the worst annoy-ware ever. None of the obvious options seemed to convince it that

1. no, I do _not_ want it to keep pre-loading itself, and

2. no, I don't want to be spammed with their lame pop-ups... even when I'm not even watching and realmedia files any more, and have manually removed all file associations to it

It was _not_ convincing me to fork over the dough for the premium version. Au contraire, it just served to convince me that I _don't_ want to "vote with the wallet" that such lame practices continue.

Now mind you, this was some two versions back, so I don't know if they fixed it or not in the meantime. But still, it's left such a bitter taste in my mouth, that I don't want to have anything to do with them again. Ever.

And just for the sake of having a good rant, what the **** is with all these business models based on annoying the potential customer? I can understand that they need money, but then don't bloody advertise it as "FREE!!!"

The whole thing is as if I advertised "FREE MP3 players!" Only once you've got one, I started showing up at your house, reading your diary, making a list of what music you're playing, listening to your phone conversations (the non-Internet equivalent of what spyware does to a TCP/IP connection), and shouting in front of your window to give me money if you want me to shut up. Even when you're not actually using that MP3 player.

Surely noone would put up with that kind of a trick, for a non-computer product. But in the software world it's become accepted and expected that, hey, the user is a computer-illiterate anyway. You're _expected_ to sell him/her snake oil, rape his/her privacy as hard as you can, never test or debug the product first, and generally be as annoying or dishonest as possible if it makes you money. etc. How did this happen?

Re:This will be modded down

[digitaleus]

Slashdot is like any other group of ordinary people - it has it's own prejudices, which may be based in fact but are kept alive by intuitions. Facts are just a tool to validate those intuitions.

Slashdot is not a research facility, it's not a debtate, it's an informal discussion, and you can't come in and demand that people involved in the discussion be less biased - accept that this is the tone of the group, and if you want to, join in.

No one's forcing you to read....

Submitted via email to Car Talk:

[wowbagger]

I sumitted the following to Car Talk via their e-mail submission form:

You are 100% correct on your assessment of Real Networks - they do everything in their power to trick you into giving them money for what ought to be free.

However, going to Windows Media in response is like saying "Yugo's are poorly made, so I will buy a Trebant" - Microsoft does everything in THEIR power to FORCE you into paying them.

Why not offer your show as a MP3 stream? That way, rather than being forced to use Real or Microsoft, we can use whatever we want to!

And while you are at it, a point I've been wanting to mail you about for some time: I have an MP3 player in my car - that way, I can start my music, and then NOT MESS WITH IT for the duration of the trip - allowing me to keep my hands on the wheel and my eyes and mind on the road. When I am on a long trip, what more natural thing to want to listen to than Car Talk. However, since I cannot a) be assured of finding them being broadcast on a radio station where I am (usually should I find it I do so just as the station fades into the noise), b) download the files from your site (stream yes, download no), and c) play the files I get (since my MP3 player does not play Real or WMA), it makes it almost impossible to do so.

Again, I applaud your decision to drop Real - but please consider using MP3's instead of WMA - dropping Real for WMA because you don't like Real's tactics is like changing your motor oil to somebody else's used oil.

And NO, I am not going to suggest they use Ogg - yes, it would be free, MP3s not, but I'm trying to stay on-point that WMA is bad, not muddy the issue with a format that Click and Clack may never have heard of, and certainly a large portion of their audience has not heard of.