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A Wireless Network for a 4-Story Apt. Building?
zzzreyes asks: "I live in a 4 storey building, and pretty much everyone in this building is into gaming and computers. I have just received, through the death of a great aunt, about $7,000. I want to know how and what I should buy, to provide wireless access through out the whole building, so we can all share one connection. There are 6 double-room apartments on each side, and we only have four floors. I'll hopefully have access to the elevator shaft, in case I need it. Will $7,000 be enough?" How cheaply could you do something like this, assuming you had access to much of the building? What would be the best way to set up the access points to guarantee the best coverage for the whole building?
if everybody shares the same connection, online gaming will suck, unless you have an OC3
You will need access hardware from/for your ISP (e.g. cable modem, DSL modem, etc. Usually Most likely you will need at least one wireless AP for each floor. Depending on the thickness of walls and size of the building, multiple APs might be necessary. Budget around $100 (rough number) per AP for consumer grade equipment, which is all you probably need. Don't forget to put each AP on a different wireless channel - and stagger the channels to minimize frequency overlap (e.g. Floor 1: Channel 1, Floor 2: Channel 9, Floor 3: Channel 4, Floor 4: Channel 11).
You probably need a NAT since you will have many people needing IP addresses, unless you want to get a subnet prefix from your ISP (at $7k that isn't likely). So at least one NAT box is needed.
If you are comfortable with Linux networking, take a look at a Linksys WR54G as described here - one of these on each floor would allow you to have a cheap AP + detailed control of banwidth (i.e. make sure that no one guy hogs all your Internet connection).
At the access point you will need to put that NAT mentioned above, plus a switch for between floors. The Linksys could act as both and is a cheap solution. If Linux isn't your bag, then a decent low end (SOHO router) such as a D-Link DFL-300 would be a good thing (with built-in firewall to boot, which would help).
In terms of wiring, get at least CAT 5 cable run ("CAT 6" is even better) to every floor. A separate wire to every floor, all culminating in the basement (or wherever your Internet access is) gives a measure of reliability in case of a wire fault or router fault on one floor. A patch panel at the termination point of all the wires is a good idea.
Expect to spend a large amount of the money on the labor for getting the wiring done. Professional cable pullers can charge high 2 digits to 3 digits/hour. If you hire a professional company to do the whole thing including picking equipment, setting it up, etc., then $7k isn't near enough.
I applaud your noble effort. However, I must warn you. Once you take responsibility for setting up this network, everytime something goes wrong, you will be the first person the tenants come to for help. Even though it sounds like your neighbours are computer oriented, I guarantee you will be swamped with more problems than you bargained for.
Good luck.
Simple suggestions..
1 - take a laptop around and see how signal strength is..
2 - block all outside access via mac address restrictions and encryption.
3 - expect some boob to start dling kiddy porn and get you in trouble with your isp and have your connection cut off... ( remember most AUP's prohibit this with out a business account )
4 - good luck not getting sued.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
With WDS you could implement a wireless "backbone" with 4+ access points, one (or more) per floor. Then one access point would connect to a router box which would in turn be connected to your broadband link.
If you really can get to all the apartments, why not put an ethernet drop into each one? Let people install their own wifi points if they want them.
Why are you subsidising the whole cost of the installation?
If all the people in your building want to get wireless, they should chip in, shouldn't they?
On the techical part, I don't know, but I think $7000 should be MORE than enough to get the whole thing running in all the building.
Again, it's none of my business, but it is my personal suggestion not to be so eager in spending so much money like that. Unless you REALLy want to play with those guys. Who's going to pay for the fixed internet connection fees later?
I used to work as a property manager for a number of different properties spread out through the city, with a number of different owners.
From that point of view, DON'T DO IT!
Consider:
1) You have to get permission to do any wiring and you'll be running wires of some type (power or CAT5) through the building, which will require the owner's permission.
2) You can spend all that and have a great time, but the landlord can decide to sell the building at any time, and you may suddenly find out you have to leave either at the end of your lease term or with as little as 30 or 60 days notice.
3) How do you know, after doing all that work, that you'll get to take the equipment with you when you leave?
4) Why are you investing in a building you are only renting? (You have no way of knowing that, right or wrong, you'll be able to take the equipment with you when you leave!)
Basically, you don't know how much longer you'll be living there and a number of things could result in an early termination of the lease, or other problem. While the equipment is yours, there are a number of ways the owner can keep you from taking it. Hell, the owner could even sue you for putting it in.
As a property manager, my job was 1) Protect the property owner from any harm or damage (not just physical) (that includes the property itself), and AFTER THAT, 2) Protect the tenant from harm (also not only physical), but this comes under #1 because anything that hurts the tenant could result in a suit or other harm to the owner, including inappropriate or illegal actions of the owner that hurt the tenant.
In such a role, I can tell you that I, and almost every property owner I have either known through networking, or worked with, would not want a tenant, no matter what they know about computers, crawling through a building and installing equipment the OWNER doesn't fully understand. And if an owner allowed it, you have no way to be sure they'll let you keep it later, or even allow it to continue to operate.
The owner also has to consider what could happen if a building inspector came through and you had violated a law you weren't aware of.
Maybe your landlord allows this. That doesn't mean you'll stay there long enough to make it worth while, or that you can keep the equipment later. It's like digging for gold in someone else's mine when, at any minute, they can walk in and say, "I've changed my mind. You can't keep the gold. It's all mine." Would you do that? Most likely not. Doing this is the same thing.
Be wise. Invest in something you'll have for a long time or that is yours, like a car, or a house downpayment, or even a cruise to an exotic location.
Oh, and I live in the US, so I don't know laws in other countries, but you've still got to face the fact that what you do may benefit you for only a short term and could benefit the owner for years.
(Oh, your lease is solid, you say? Check. I saw buildings bought and sold all the time -- sometimes tenants had till the end of the lease to move out, sometimes only 60 days. There are too many variables to be sure you will stay for years in an apartment.)
Lots of people have given suggestions over the types of hardware to buy or other places to invest your $7000. Why not just reply to one of the many, many friendly people from Nigeria and use your $7000 as a transaction fee for a transfer of funds. You'll receive a good 30% of a $50 million transfer in funds, which is $15 million. It's a no-brainer!
It depends on the building materials, but I've found that you're lucky to get 802.11 anything through 2 walls with any strength left. So yes, you'll want to set up repeaters, etc.
$7000 should be more than plenty for this. In fact, you could probably do this for under $1000 without too much trouble, then take the remaining $6000 and do something useful with it. For example, take a trip overseas and spend a few weeks somewhere you've never been. London is a great place to start. Foreign, but not too foreign.
For under a thousand you can get round trip airfare for two to London, leaving you with $5000 to blow while you are there. So, let's say two weeks in a decent hotel (say $200/night). That's $2800, leaving you with $2200 for meals, etc. Or hell, just do a one week venture and live really high on the hog.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I really don't think this is offtopic at all. The poster wants to know if $7k is enough to do this project.
The reply here obviously is "yes, but don't waste your money." How is that offtopic...?
These people are not going to pay your bills for you. Don't offer to pay theirs. They want broadband, they need to shell out their cash.
Just because a great aunt was kind enough to bestow money on you doesn't mean that you are expected to share.
Life can be harsh, don't make it harder in the long run by giving away money now.
-- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
Um, ok, this is peculiar.
1) Why would you spend that much money on setting up wireless in your appartment building for everyone? Unless you've already got a surplus of income, you own the appartment building, or you're into some sort of odd techno-charity urge addiction, I'd suggest you don't waste your money on something so frivilous: buy a house or pay off your debt, FFS! Hell, invest the money, if you don't have debt and don't want to buy a house.
2) If in fact you are crazy or do own the appartment building, by all means, set things up to share internet access - at a (minor) to your tenants (either enough to cover costs, or to make a profit, you decide how nice you want to be). Personally, if it were me, I'd wire the place for ethernet (myself), provided the building wasn't too old (1970's). If the building was old and crappy, I probably wouldn't bother, and try and sell it off - though it would certainly still be feasable.
You can choke wireless networks up pretty quickly, and they introduce needless security issues. For the cost of an 8-port (or 16, or whatever, depending on how many ports per appartment you put in) 100BT (or go GigE, the cost difference is negligible now) and a couple hundred hards of cat5, you can get hundreds the bandwidth/signal quality and many times the security of wifi. The cost would be similar, and could possibly be under $500, provided you didn't splurge and get a nice managed router to bridge stuff to the outside world.
To be honest, though: I don't see why you even bothered asking this question. Are you not a geek? For me, the most fun of any project is the planning and getting things set up. You've got the resources of hundreds of thousands of knowledgeable people, after all: the Internet via search engine (WTF are you doing with an "Ask Slashdot", anyway? DAMN). The payoff of your work (ie, the planning and research) is the implimentation - to see how well you planned your project. What's the payoff if you have someone else do the research/thinking for you?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Speakeasy.net
They let you share bandwidth. You sign yourself as accountable so you might want to create a legal entity to hide behind (corporation or nonprofit).
They'll even take care of the "billing" for you. You could charge everyone actual-cost, with a higher bill for the guy who consistently "forgets" to turn off P2P filesharing to/from the outside..
do you have any idea of how moderation works, read about it before you complain too much. and if you don't like how people moderate meta moderate.
I have moderated several times and concider myself proof that you don't need great carma to get to moderate. just keep it at neutral or higher, and actually read slashdot and you'll probbly get to moderate a few times a year.
just know that when you complain about "the moderators" that you are talking about nearley every slashdot reader.
as for the wireless project it should be easy to do for about 300-400$ if you need great coverage.
my wap saturates about half of my building witch is about twice the size of your's.
Just pick out points for your wap's then run wire there, hook em all together and plug them into your cable modem. 2 acess points should do it just fine, and a hundred feet or so of cat 5 and there you go. if your coverage isin't as good as you'd like just add another point.
I woulden't even screw around with high gain antennas, most that I've seen that work well are directional, and the omni's that I've seen are way to expensive for one's that work.
if you're really serious about wireless you should get your fcc technition class lisence, it allows you to run your way at up to 1500 watts, or something rediclus, way better than screwing around with fancy antennas for just a hundred miliwatts or so.
Well art is art isn't it, but then again water is water; and east is east; and west is west; and if you take cranberries
It depends on the building materials, but I've found that you're lucky to get 802.11 anything through 2 walls with any strength left.
In the US, at least, it's generally recognized their are two types of apartment building: "pre-war" and "post-war" (from the submitter's spelling of "storey" I'm guessing he's a Brit or other Anglophone).
The war referred to is the Second World War; the difference in the buildings is in the materials (and to a lesser extent, the quality) of construction. Basically, post-war building don't have "real" walls: they have plasterboard or Sheetrock (it's a capitalized because it's a trademark, like Kleenex, I think), thin pieces of crap that stop nothing but physical access and light. Radio, and more annoyingly, sound, goes right through.
That's why if you're shopping for an apartment, and you even intend to immerse yourself in your opera music, rock out to your heavy metal, or kill kittens to your porno collection, you want pre-war construction. Even if you don't have any loud habits, odds are your neighbors will, so you still want pre-war construction.
The down-side of pre-war construction is that real walls absorb radio waves too. With my admittedly underprepared USB WiFi transmitter, I can see a noticeable weakening of the signal even one room and 10 feet away. I can get a very poor signal (3%-10) up to about 40 feet away, at the elevator, and nothing once I'm in the elevator.
But I can get a half-way decent signal (30-40% signal) from twice that distance if I'm in line of sight of one of my apartment's windows.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
"These people are not going to pay your bills for you. Don't offer to pay theirs. They want broadband, they need to shell out their cash."
I don't believe it was stated in the question that he was making this up-to-$7K investment out of pure kindness and that he was asking for nothing in return. Somebody, please correct me if I'm wrong.
By my math, there are up to 48 tenants in the apartment building. If he charges each $20 a month for access to his wireless network, that's $11.5K, or a return of about 150%, in the first year alone.
Unless he's lucky, buying property is unlikely to have that rate of return.
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
it allows you to run your way at up to 1500 watts
Good God.. warn me so I can get to the Minimum Safe Distance before you turn that thing on...
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
I really didnt want to talk abuout this since some cryingpants above made a big deal out of it. She was worth close to 35Million. I got that money because I attended the funeral, everyone that attended got at least 7g. She is the one that bought me my first computer and I know she would love it if spent it in technology and everyone can enjoy something that she has left behind as part of her legacy. Anyhow, I know that I dont have to use the whole 7G but if I can buy everything top of the line and make sure it is as zero fault tolerance as it can be, I will be happy. If this offends you, sure, cry, but dont post. I don't need to use to pay bills or buy a house, thanks for the idea, I want to build something in memory of her and more importantly in memory of what I will remember her for. She introduced me to technology!
I laughed out loud when this guy asked if $7000 was enough to network a three story building. I helped build a wired network in a similar building, and we didn't even spend $200 -- which included an expensive crimping tool that's nice to have anyway. Of course it would have added about $500 to do it wireless (assuming you need three WEPs) and maybe another $1,000 if we'd had to buy wireless NICs for everybody (all of the comptuers in the building, most of which were Macs, already had wired NICs) but that's still a long way from $7000.
But a system, any system, needs to be maintained! I got involved in this project because a non-techie friend asked me to help out. My first advice to him was not to try to sign up everybody in the building right off the bat. Instead, they should start with the two households minimum (my friend didn't live in the same apartment as the DSL connection) and then expand it slowly. In the event, I think he decided that it wasn't worth the hastle to have that many more people involved.
What the hell? Since when did this become "news for middleaged businessmen that remind everyone of their fathers?"
This guy is embracing the spirit of nerdom by doing something that non-nerds would consider a waste of time and money.
Today his apartment complex, tommorrow his city!
A lot of great people in the tech world get their education and ideas from what may have started as seemingly wasteful iconoclastic exploits.
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Look the guy asked a simple question. He didn't post "hey guys give a philosphical debate over whether I'm wrong for wasting my money when there's starving kids in Africa." He asked "I have 7G's. Can I make a kickass LAN?" He didn't need to mention it was an inheritance, cause you guys would have answered his question. Instead he gives a little TMI and you guys feel the need to grind his morality into the ground. Like he needs that at a time in his life like this. Look I'll try to answer his question for you guys:
I'm not sure. I try to use actual cable for security purposes (still paranoid of the wardrivers) BUT in your case wireless is the perfect way to go. Not like you can go drilling holes and laying cable. From observations I've had, One wireless router (get the switched type so you can WIRE your cables in at the router and put yourself in a different domain to protect your computers), and probably 2 AP's at most. If some need arises, you can put some into different IP blocks and filter only thier content. Setups like that are nearly endless. You're on the right track. Just look up the prices for some common affordable routers like the Linksys models. I've had one of thier non-wireless routers for years and it works great. They now have a 802.11G version of the same router available today. Choose AP's in a similar fashion. If you'd like to test the waters, I'd suggest getting something off ebay at a low cost to get any bugs out and THEN drop the phat cash on some topshelf equipment when you know you won't be dissappointed. Worst thing to do is to drop a load of cash on some equip and then find out it sucks & or doesn't work like you'd planned. Good execution here is key. You wouldn't want to make a memorial that was broken.
You know what, when somebody has money, has a project in mind, and wants advice on a project... comments like this are really a pain. Do you really think that most people wouldn't consider alternate uses for the money? Do people always have to have a personal gain in mind raither than a personal "project."
There's nothing wrong with setting up a WAPnet for the neighbours (so long as it doesn't interfere with other people's WAP's etc). There's nothing wrong with doing with one's one money what one sees fit.
You know, if I came across and extra $7000 and wanted to spend it buying a few computers for a school etc, I would much rather have advice on that topic for slashdot than a bunch of "WTF - giving money away - invest it!" BS comments. In this case, the guy is donating to his apartment community instead of a school etc, but it's the same concept.
Oh, and p.s., $7000 is tons for WAP. Why not come down and check out my apartment building when you're done yours </joking>
The expensive part is going to be getting the building on the internet. You're going to need something like a 1.5Mbit business SDSL or T-1 with 64 or so IPs and a SLA. This is probably going to wind up being around $600-$800/mo depending on your provider.
If you really want to honor her memory, why not donate the money to a school (college or private HS). Then you can have a nice plaque with her name on it put up in the computer lab. That's a lot better way to honor someone's memory than throwing a year-long LAN party for your neighbors. Networking your building, while a fun geek project, probably isn't the best way to honor her memory. If you want to do that, get your neighbors to pitch in (labor, $, or equipment) and make it a community project.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?