Graabein asks:
"I'm part of an effort to startup a VoIP provider. We've decided to use Open Source Software wherever possible. Production is not a problem, we can handle the VoIP network itself, POTS termination, web sites, email systems, all the usual stuff. The business side of things is another matter entirely. We need to be able to handle Customer Relationship data, manage subscriptions, handle invoicing and accounts, have a web shop of sorts, online billing, credit card transactions, and more. Whatever system we use has to be able to handle national standards for accounting, or at least be possible to modify to do so. We've looked at Compiere, but our business types are not impressed. Neither am I, for that matter. Requiring an Oracle license is one thing (database independence is 'in development', but it has been for a long time, with no discernable progress), not working properly with Mozilla is another (you need IE to use it fully in HTML mode). What other options are there?"
"Our business types are full of suggestions for supposedly excellent and well suited systems, however they all have in common that they require Windows on the client. If we choose one of those systems our OSS policy is pretty much moot and OSS has been relegated to (some) servers in the computer room and that's about it. I don't mind running these business functions on a Windows server if that is the best system for the job, but having to run Windows on every client in order to access the data is simply not acceptable.
We want Linux and OpenOffice on every desktop. We want to be able to access customer data from a variety of clients, even including Windows. The same goes for Accounting data, HR data, QA data, you name it. Do we have to write our own system from scratch? I'm not sure that is very realistic."
Slashdot Mirror
I have run into this problem a few times with my busisness. What did I end up doing? I resorted to the ultimate open source system, pen and paper. I have looked at a few packages for use as an accounting system but I seemed to always run into a problem with this and that, and when I'd try and read the documentation it sucked ass! It assumed you already knew XY and Z to get the package working when you don't really need to know them when it's finaly working. I dislike winblows as much as the next Slashdotter, but I have to say most programs in the windows einvironment install and work out of the box, and the install documentation is written at a level even a drunk person can understand.
---- Fight to protect your right to keep and arm bears! ummmm... ya I think that's right....
The parent may be lacking on content, but it's probably not Offtopic. For example, Hummingbird provides a workflow and document management project that is web-based. Although it runs on Windows Servers, it's clients can be cross-platform.
Open Source doesn't mean free. If you use mySql/ReiserFS in a commercial environment you will have to pay a fee (but you get the code).
If you need Oracle and Windows to manage clients, then purchase a license for both. You could start out as a free company, and then work out the bugs without licensing issues. Start charging for the service later. As far as business/CRM software is concerned, IBM and SAP both offer professional services for Linux (but you need some money).
Your not going to get free access to the credit card clearing houses using open source or proprietary software. You need a merchant license for this (along with money in the bank too). Software is easy to write, FDIC approval is harder.
But then again, why a VOIP company? Did anyone write a business plan first? Who is your target audience? Slashdot users? Not me, I'm still comfortable with the landline connection to 911/1-800-CALL-WIFE that doesn't go down in a power outage or DOS attack. Can't get that with dialup/DSL/Cable.
My opinion. Enjoy.
It's just the normal noises in here.
OSS does a lot of things well. Things like development tools, operating systems, servers, and, well, I'm stumped past that. I've been running linux for 9 years, and it is all I run at home, so I'm not some MS flunky. OSS also does a lot of things really poorly. Easy installation, self configuration, and interoperation with business software are some of those things. As a startup you can't afford the time it takes to make OSS software interoperate with business software and other companies you will be working with. Start keeping track of the hours you spend trying to install and configure and make your OSS software work in this specific area, and you'll quickly see it isn't free. I'm guessing every piece of software you need is up to par and available right now in the commercial world, for a few thousand dollars. That isn't much considering the time and trouble it will save you.
You are not going to find an out-of-box product that is perfectly made for your business. Use the open-source LAMP combination (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP) to build your own application complete with a built-for you database scheme and user interface. That way, you're sure it'll support absoultely everything your business does, and have the ability to upgrade the software should you ever expand into another product line.
Hire a consultant, and make sure you own the rights to the resulting code when you're done.
smoon's got a point - and you might be best of with a mix...
Use open source wherever you can, but for some of the apps, you might need commercial ones.
The commercial Accounting/Business management CRM, etc solutions that are out there are still years ahead of anything open source - they might be your best choice - and there are some available that will run on an open source OS (even for the desktop)
(i work for a company that has such a product...)
"Nyquil - The stuffy, sneezy, why-the-hell-is-the-room-spinning medicine."
The $480 in software to give your accountant a Windows XP machine that runs Quickbooks Pro is well worth it, but there's no reason why the secretary needs XP... (s)he can have all the resources (s)he needs with a Linux box that's capable of running OpenOffice.org and Mozilla, assuming the business is running an HTML-based system for its main workflow-tracking software so there's no Win-only client involved there.
We had a similar problem at Sparklit (www.sparklit.com if you interested). We ended up developing a CRM from the ground up. We started with something simple and over the years it has grown into a very robust system rivaling anything I have seen.
Every person we have shown it to says something to the effect of "Wow, Why don't you sell this?".
Some of the features are:
Automatic Re-occurring Subscriptions (Discounts/Usage Charges etc are supported)
Automatic Credit Card Billing
Support Incidents/Tickets (with multiple statuses/email notification etc)
Reporting: Revenue/Income/Product growth/Usage etc
User memos/phone logs
Debit/Credit Manager
Fraud Manager
User Output Tracker (Can track a users usage of the site in real-time. Useful for debugging.)
Debt Manager - (Automatic Processes owing accounts through 7 steps "Email Invoice/Snail Mail Invoice/Legal Notices/Collection Agency etc" all without any human intervention)
And much more stuff that is very specific to our system. The point is that you can write a specific app that will perform much better than 3rd party "generic" apps. It is the specific things that will save you time. For example our support request system has a feature that will automatically alert me via Jabber when a support request comes in. It will then analyze the ticket looking for common keywords and suggest a list of "Quick Answers" to respond with. Due to the level integration required with our other systems a third party solution was out of the question. You might find the same.
Of course these facts come for the absolute UNDISPUTED source of proven independant facts, Microsoft.
It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
- E. Debs
if you're referring to bookkeeping, then try sql-ledger.. i run mine on it!!
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
I was actually talking to an accountant a few weeks ago about working together to do this exact same thing. I know of a few companies that need a REAL accounting/ERP solution and, to be honest, there just aren't any good options out there. If anyone's interested in working with me on this get in touch. I've got the accountant who'll consult for free. This could be do-able.
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
There's a lot of good open source software out there. You might find several useful to your company. But I haven't found any really complete OSS business solutions that don't rely on proprietary software. Like that Compiere makes me wonder if it was made by Oracle just to attract customers.
Just remember that your ultimate goal is increasing profit, which is often helped by reducing expenditures but not always if it forces you to use something that's of lower quality. Most Linux projects have Windows ports, and chances are you're already running Windows, and your new PC's have it preinstalled accounting for $50 of the cost.
Don't shut out proprietary software but don't shut out Open Source either. Use whatever will lead to the best profits. You'll probably want at least one good Linux server for general purpose use. There are many good groupware related websites you can install on it for your intranet. OpenOffice works as well as MS Office for most tasks, sometimes better. If you use Microsoft Access, there aren't any OSS alternatives for running your preexisting Access apps, but you can find and download the little known free Access Runtime which works for most of them.
So to summarize, Windows desktops for compatibility, OSS software running on top, Linux servers wherever you're not locked in to Windows, and the free Access Runtime if you need Access but wish to use OpenOffice.
Nope. There's a port in the works, see this page. But, it's not in a useable form yet. We've been looking for a solution for our small-med size company ( LitigationDynamicsInc.com ) but have yet to find a single solution that be used to track our customer base and let the sales guys on windows see the same calendaring and customer data that the production (mac/pc) folks need to see. Everything seems close but no one project has everything yet. Ideally there'd be something that worked with ical, outlook, web, and palm and ran on macosx. Opengroupware is that product, but it's not quite there yet from the standpoint of running on X. I was able to play with it on a linux box, but it kept losing a connection to the database :P
PHPprojekt is close also and does run on 10.2+ but the developers are staunch in their refusal to support US-format date and time entry which is a deal-breaker for us.
Ever since I started getting those threatening postcards from the Business Software Alliance, I have been determined to do whatever I can to get Microsoft out of my business. It has not been easy at all. In fact, I wonder if my extreme hatred for Microsoft has clouded my business judgment.
My work has not been all for naught. I have easily and painlessly jettisoned Microsoft from all of our critical Internet infrastructure. No more Microsoft http servers, smtp servers, file servers, etc. This is where open source excels. It does not make much business sense to use Microsoft for stuff like this.
Another huge open source success is the use of Postgresql instead of Oracle or SQL Server. It was easy to re-program our proprietary apps to use Postgres. We save a ton of money by never paying for an Oracle license. Unless you can't live without DB clustering or other advanced features, Postgres is the answer.
My efforts to get rid of our proprietary point of sale/order entry system have taken me down a long, complicated road, and I have decided that the best solution is developing a completely custom system. This has cost a ton of time and money, and in two years has still not resulted in a functioning alternative or the decomissioning of a single Microsoft server! One day, though, I swear it will pay dividends. My stubborness here has so far been a big can of worms. But who knows, even massive, expensive fiascos like The Big Dig can one day "go live" and everybody is grateful.
OpenOffice is a no-brainer, unless you need to exchange documents with other firms, or you need some of MS Office's advanced features. My employees initially revolted (they were just not used to it). But OO is surprisingly feature-rich, if not intuitive or robust. Of course, even though OO has been a GREAT success story, it is still deployed on Windows machines. However, I now have a migration path to Linux workstations.
I do not even have any desire or plans to get rid of all the Microsoft boxes. We will still use Quickbooks for the back end accounting. We will still do desktop publishing using BSA-approved software (although the GIMP has replaced Photoshop in our non-print work).
The one shining beacon of hope for me is that, even though I have not significantly reduced the number of Windows machines at my business, I have significantly increased the number of FreeBSD and Linux servers, and I have not ever upgraded my Windows NT 4.0 workstation licenses!
My advice is to use OSS whereever you can, and proprietary software whereever you must. Always make technology decisions that give you the option to migrate to OSS if the option presents itself.
I don't find it too bad. Perhaps not idea, but workable, because individual users can be configured such that they only are presented with, say screens that deal with order entry. So user "sales-charley" might only be able to enter orders for Company-X, while "sales-anna" might be able to deal with more companies, but only be able to run quotes, not enter sales. Or whatever. It's up to the admin (and there can be subordinate admins who only deal with certain aspects of things) to set up individual users.
As for an auditor? Good question, that I'm not sure about.
A witty saying is worth nothing - Voltaire
It's not about the $780 per desktop. Even Microsoft will happily tell you that the licensing fees are a drop in the ocean. However, there are serious cost issues involved with supporting Windows desktops, and anyone that tells you differently is selling something.
That's especially true of a business (like this one) where a large percentage of the employees are going to be doing customer service. They don't need full fledged desktops. A thin client connecting via X to an application server would be far less expensive and far easier to support. A single Linux server (given enough memory) will happily support over a hundred thin clients if those thin clients are just doing order entry and light office tasks.
Not only does the business save a considerable amount of money on software licensing, but they end up with a architecture that is far less expensive to maintain. Software and hardware upgrades are a snap and maintenance is essentially non-existant. If a monitor or thin client fails you simply replace it. Instead of Windows PC technicians you only need a monkey that can be taught which cords plug in where.
On the other hand, it also is possible to mix in a few Citrix servers for those Windows applications that are needed for specialized desktops, so it shouldn't be that critical if there isn't Linux software for everything.
Quick-books can't properly handle multiple currencies whilst GnuCash seems to have no problems. You may have as many currencies as you want then balance them out at any time with a current or historical exchange rate. QB Professional is really not suitable for anything more than very simple stuff, it is closed and not extensible.
What sort of needs does a big business have? Well, they all need to manage human resources. Most need to track items in their warehouses and perhaps training for their employees. The industrial sector will have many additional needs to track equipment, schedule resources, control work authorizations, and safely take equipment in and out of service. Running an enterprise call system also takes more than a PHP app.
There are dozens of other highly generic needs that I haven't mentioned, but all take extensive effort to set up, customize, and integrate into a business environment. And these things are *mission critical*: millions of dollars can ride on the availability of the software. Open source can eventually get here, but it will have to (first) be written, (second) creep up through small business, and (third) be vetted and pushed by consultants who can make money from long-standing service contracts.
I'm not trying to be pessimistic about open source, but there are many unmet needs here. Don't expect to run a serious business without proprietary software. In fact, be as objective as possible when evaluating software needs for your business... pretend that you have to defend every decision in front of someone who doesn't care about the distiction b/t free and non-free software. Someone who only thinks in terms of money, growth potiential, implementation schedules, and risk. If OSS can't stand its ground here (even with the price advantage), drop it. Don't jeporadize your business, and (if you're working for someone else) don't give your boss a bad taste of what OSS is all about.
Stallman--as much as I support the guy--completely misses the real world when he says that "any business based on proprietary software deserves to fail". Deserving or not, any medium or large business that is not based on proprietary software will fail.
I hope open source can one day address these needs, especially for small businesses and start-ups, but I'm not too worried even if it can't. If Linux becomes good enough in other aspects, these proprietary apps will be made to run on Linux too (and some of them already do). "Mostly" free is good enough for me.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
Beyond personal taste, I think the only criticism an Auditor could really level is if the package failed its accounting. Open source is by its nature more accountable.
IANA(Auditor) however
Funny, Java seems to be working both in Mozilla 1.6 and Firebird .7. Maybe you need to upgrade your version of Java?
But in this discussion, I'd think it'd be very informative to find out how Sun, Apple, Oracle and other publicly avowed Microsoft dislikers run their business? Surely they, more than anybody else, has a business strategy at all levels to use non-MS products for their business operations, preferably their own.
Clearly, Apple, Sun and so on use MS in various parts of their organisation. They'd be unable to develop their products without MS systems, but across the organisation as a whole, what do they use for all of the problems you describe?
I've heard stories of Sun types pulling out Windows laptops and getting tuts from the techies in the room, but that was a few years ago, prior to StarOffice...
So, anybody know what these guys use?
ooooooh! What does this button do? - DeeDee, Dexters Lab.
We - a small group of freelancers that I've managed to gather - are building an ERP infrastructure for a small local E-Commerce business, with Billing, Supply Chain Management and some other stuff joinging the mix almost right on site with one of our clients. :-) really is worth it.
l )
From what I have expierienced, even with finacial and CRM software is that it in the end even isn't worthwhile looking at commercial proprietary software.
My strong advice:
Get an OSS expierienced programmer who is realistic and can ask you the right questions. He absolutely has to be capable of understanding the needs of pragmatic business solutions and your need to also evalutate proprietary products even if he's grown to be very sceptical (like I have). He should also be able to recognize where the bottlenecks in your business are and if the software which screenshots you like so much
We are using OSS all the way through, exept for the businessguy who hasn't gotten around to ditching his Win2K Desktop - which he almost is as anoyed about as the rest of us, since managing all those emails is a major suck with outlook. (Yeah, I know, sounds insane, doesn't it?)
All the rest is done with either solid OSS solutions - in this case InterChange for the e-Commerce plattform - or custom Code in Python.
Compiere gives me the creeps aswell, but just the other day I've checked with the GNU Enterprise team, and after pocking them with questions on IRC for 90 minutes I'd say their foundation work seems the way to go for me. Take a look for yourself:
( http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/project/what.htm
Just now the business has it's model sorted out and we're making the transition from a bunch of patched and modded gluecode scripts to a front line ERP/SCM/CRM system and we are going to join the GNUe folks, contribute to the project and use the gnue-common stuff to build the precise things we need. It may be a struggle at times, but all in all the crap we've put up with in proprietary systems we've shurely had enough of.
I don't know your field of business, but _if_ you choose to use proprietary software I'd suggest you do thourough evaluation of in-the-field qualities and take a VERY close look at true TCO.
Remeber: THIS is the area we're the software vendors move into serious bullshitting territory in a way that in comparsion one could think the MS Desktop devision is a trustworthy non-profit organization!
Bottom Line:
If you have good and solid, non-quirky fanatics-free OSS coders and experts at hand I'd suggest you trust them with your money, otherwise be _extremely_ carefull before you buy yourself into a lock-in with a crappy line of software products. You can't imagine what proprietary rubbish people sell for money.
BTW: If you happen to reside in germany or benelux, I'd be happy to have a talk and look if I can maybe be of use and able to toss you a pitch. Feel free to drop me a line if you think I can help you.
(Here's my public mailbox: r_i-t_s-c_h-r_a-t_s-c_h @ g-m_x-_-. d_-_e without the Hyphens, Spaces and Underscores)
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I used to work for a real estate company in Central Illinois and I Feel Your Pain. The brokers/agents all used weird proprietary apps for different things that wouldn't work together (Win9x era, so they all used different .dlls, with the same names) and would freak out at the idea that they couldn't use their expensive new toys. The local board had the MLS setup so it was accessible only through an expensive front-end to telnet (basically), not a web browser. Then we merged with another company and eventually changed which national company we were franchises of, which led to a whole new set of expensive crap being shoved down our throats.
Then there was working with the agents themselves. I can deal with people who are scared of computers, unless it comes to randomly downloading stuff and opening every e-mail attachment, but the ones who made Annette Benning's character in _American Beauty_ seem rational...
"Bugger this, I want a better world." - Jenny Sparks
The Slashdot hoards can say what they wish, but the setup of a basic Windows LAN with filesharing, network printing, backup and web access (the kind of arrangement one would find in a small ad firm, law office, etc) is less difficult than doing the same thing on Linux. There are just fewer steps.
So, I don't need some guru to come in and charge me $100 an hour to build me a Linux LAN when I can go to the classified ads and get some Windows jerk for $30 an hour to leave me with the same results.
Whoah, whoah, whoah there cowboy.
I deal with a lot of horrible situations trying to fix problems for businesses who do that. And, the networking is not the same result in most cases as it would have been if a Linux person had have done it, even if they were working with Windows boxes.
What I'm finding out is happening in ~%30 of the businesses I go to and fix problems for are these
a) Point-of-Sale or other software company sells their product(s) to the business.
b) A bunch of Windows computers are configured to be on the same workgroup by some cheap networking people. In a lot of cases PCanywhere is installed on the server(s)
c) Instead of sharing the only the data directories for the Point-of-Sale or other program, the ENTIRE C drive is shared on every computer & server on the network, without password checking & 'allow others to change files' is enabled. I do not agree that is something that most Linux network installers would do.
Not only that, in a large number of the small business situations I see, the router has been set to have the server box be in the DMZ zone. The firewall usually isn't configured right, so when something doesn't work correctly for the Point-of-Sale software company's PCanywhere access (or whatever isn't working), the business owner is told to shut the firewall off on the server after the installers and software company get done pointing fingers at each other.
I'll agree it's easier to quickly share resources on a windows network for the average business, but IMO it also encourages sloppy networking, security, and the reality that there will be serious problems with the network at some point.
Actually, that's fine with me because I end up charging $100/hour on-site to fix the problems that crop up after a few months. The total amount I bill ends up being pretty close to what I would have charged to set up their Windows server and set up networking with Linux clients in the first place.
This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.