Graabein asks:
"I'm part of an effort to startup a VoIP provider. We've decided to use Open Source Software wherever possible. Production is not a problem, we can handle the VoIP network itself, POTS termination, web sites, email systems, all the usual stuff. The business side of things is another matter entirely. We need to be able to handle Customer Relationship data, manage subscriptions, handle invoicing and accounts, have a web shop of sorts, online billing, credit card transactions, and more. Whatever system we use has to be able to handle national standards for accounting, or at least be possible to modify to do so. We've looked at Compiere, but our business types are not impressed. Neither am I, for that matter. Requiring an Oracle license is one thing (database independence is 'in development', but it has been for a long time, with no discernable progress), not working properly with Mozilla is another (you need IE to use it fully in HTML mode). What other options are there?"
"Our business types are full of suggestions for supposedly excellent and well suited systems, however they all have in common that they require Windows on the client. If we choose one of those systems our OSS policy is pretty much moot and OSS has been relegated to (some) servers in the computer room and that's about it. I don't mind running these business functions on a Windows server if that is the best system for the job, but having to run Windows on every client in order to access the data is simply not acceptable.
We want Linux and OpenOffice on every desktop. We want to be able to access customer data from a variety of clients, even including Windows. The same goes for Accounting data, HR data, QA data, you name it. Do we have to write our own system from scratch? I'm not sure that is very realistic."
Slashdot Mirror
http://www.sql-ledger.com
You might want to peek at OpenGroupware. My colleagues and I have skimmed though what was available and it seems to be the most impressive for at least the customer management side. Though the look of the web interface will not amaze your artist friends, it seems to work well. You can interoperate with Evolution, Mozilla Calendar and some other programs - even Outlook should you want to buy the driver.
I'd strongly suggest not to be impressed by eGroupWare's feature list and cute themes (I know WE've been fooled). Seems like these guys, though talented, are not really working towards stabilizing the tree, so you see frightening changelogs - like code rewrites between 1.0RC2 and 1.0RC3. They forked from phpGroupWare lately but I can't tell if it's a more serious project.
One of my friends is completely sold to the Horde Project so you might want to try it.
All of these will not solve all your issues but no application does and as these three above are open source, you can do the linking as you like.
Have you looked around on freshmeat.net? There are quite a few people providing some sort of business management package. A quick search for "billing invoicing" turned up the Trabas VoIP Billing package as the first hit. Probably a good place to start. I'm sure there is plenty of stuff that will do most of what you want. Is your company comfortable with doing some minor coding on an existing project to get exactly what you want? If so, there are a lot more options.
I think this is a common problem. I run a business myself, with two friends. We've just started, but we're looking into getting things like customer related software in order before doing anything serious about ourselves. I've worked voluntary with organisations and economy before, and I know things screw up if things are not kept track of.
I think your questions are hard to answer, and even though I have searched a lot for software (not online shopping/CC, we send invoice by mail since we're only doing business inside Norway) I have yet to find anything free and useful.
We've really considered doing it ourselves, making a simpe customer registration and management system with a web frontend. Using f.i. perl modules, you can create Excel documents with tabular data, and such. So that might be a thing to do. If you accept a tiny bit of manual work, that is. Of course, that tiny bit isn't that tiny after you've got hundred customers to bill.
But at least, I know that GnuCash has some functions regarding invoicing and customer registry, but I haven't really had the time to try it out. The rest of GnuCash is good, though, so there should be a hope. So far we can keep track of our economy, and if it works, GnuCash might do our customers as well, even generating invoices.
Good luck, and I hope this post will create some feedback for myself as well. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss, by the way.
For CRM, we use TUTOS.
For accounting, it's SQL-Ledger. Both the CRM and accounting apps are backed by PostgreSQL.
For office suites, OpenOffice.
Web browsing is Mozilla; e-mail is whatever our employees prefer (Mozilla, Kmail, Evolution, Pine, Mutt, whatever...)
We are completely MSFT-free and intend to stay that way.
It is a closed source general accounting software, but it runs on Linux, and the clients are linux too.
It takes off where Great Plains Classic left, when it got shut down by microsoft in favor of MS Dynamics, and i think its great, rock solid stuff. (passport, not Dynamics)
Also, it is written in COBOL, and uses ACUCORP's ACUCOBOL runtime, for which you need a license. Finally, ACUCORP provides an ODBC driver that works pretty nicely with PHP for web frontends and reporting, and also runs on Linux.
The only gripe I have, is terminal emulation in Konsole, 'cuz the graphics characters come out as A-umlauts and what have you, and i cant seem to find documentation for that issue anywhere.. suggestions?
*shower*
open source is cheaper, in th long run.
"Also - what will your customers feel that you have their PRIVATE info on open source processing software???"
umm, do you just completly fail to understand how software works, or are you a moron?
It's not like you can read source, and thus know what the clients private data is. What OS buys you is that you can be sure that the code handles the data properly, and if not you can have it fixed.
If a closed system is mis-handling data, you have no way of finding that out.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I was recently asking this same question, albeit for a home-based consulting business.
The solution that I found was SQL-Ledger. While it is overkill for my needs, I think it might fit your criteria quite well.
The parent should not have been modded flamebait.
Are you running a business to make money, or just to say you used OSS? It seems pretty clear that you don't have a business plan, because if you did, the cost of licensing v. cost of finding something that might work would have become apparent, and you wouldn't have had to ask this question. Forget about technology for a sec, get out your favorite spreadsheet and crunch your finances. Get your priorities in order. Don't make the same mistakes my former associates and I did
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
That was my last purchase from Intuit. I have removed it from my system and it sits on a shelf.
Some net apps require Microsoft extensions or are written using proprietary IE calls and absolutely MUST be run on IE. And don't tell me changing the browser id string will make it work. That will eliminate the warning messages but not make things work. I am having to deal with this issue right at this moment.
ofbiz.org
It's not a complete solution yet. But it has an excellent framework and a quite active group of programmers behind it.
You're running a business. Get over the idealism and focus on what you _need_.
.7 version borked the checks and you've upgraded to .8 and that borked the witholding info so now you need to rebuild it -- that's unacceptable. Bite the bullet and focus on your business needs.
You need an accounting system that an auditor from a public firm will write an unqualified opinion on. In general this is going to mean a commercial product -- Solomon, Great Plains, Quickbooks, etc.
You need a payroll system that always works. Flawlessly. Many companies outsource this. Explaining to folks that the
You need a business plan that the investors technical people will sign off on. Betting everything on untried and little-used systems isn't going to get you there.
So for a lot of things: buckle down and do what needs to be done.
For the other 90% -- use open office, linux or bsd desktops, open groupware or even openexchange (suse). There are plenty of Linux/BSD/Apache/whatever storefront systems. Work on it. For the accounting/finance/etc folks -- get a windows terminal server and use rdesktop for those windows apps.
"But actually trying to use m4 as a general-purpose langage would be deeply perverse" --ESR
I haven't used it, but Intuit does have an online version of QuickBooks. Could be a good way to go.
Too big to fail? Does that make me to small to succeed?
Your Customer Support department really needs to run the same OS as the customers they are supporting, so they can recreate problems and sound like they know what they're talking about when walking through steps to solutions. Unless all your customers are Open Source only shops, this means at least most of your customer support personel are going to need Windows boxes.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
You mentioned that you needed to process credit cards. Check out my employer, TrustCommerce, which offers a completely open source credit card processing API for connecting to our payment gateway. It compiles on tons of platforms (including Linux), and we have versions for many programming languages: C, C++, PHP, Python, Ruby, Perl, ColdFusion, Lisp, etc. All code is GPL.
I played with it for a while but the bosses where I work went with anther, Windows-based management system, that has as yet proven too difficult and unstable to actually put into production.
Open Source Java super-integrated shop-in-a-can.
The Open for Business Project sports many features and integrated technologies. Just really impressive stuff, cannot list all the goodies here.
I can tell you that there are problems you may encounter at the moment trying to get all your needs met and integrated in the way you want. At best, you can probably buy a license for some components that are not yet available via OSS.
Here is what HERMES offers at the moment:
Web based CRM including appointments and tasks for customers.
Features that should be out within another month or 2 include:
internal communications system (i.e. communications not involving customers)
Interal appointment handling (i.e. appointments not involving customers)
Appointment and task delegation.
In the mid range, I will offer UI independence via SOAP, LDAP, POP3, SMTP, and IMAP.
In the long run, we want to offer most of what you are looking for. Please understand though, that I have been unable to find any open source packages for handling credit card transactions, so you would probably need to pay for an (expensive) license for such a component.
Subscription management etc. is not a problem-- there are OSS solutions that could be modified to do this with a trivial amount of work.
Anyway, Hope this helps.
I have heard good things about SQLledger, but IIRC, it runs on MySQL, which has a nasty habit of truncating large numbers, so I am not sure if I would trust it. It should be easy to port to PostgreSQL though, I would think.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
SimpleData CRM/ERP business software. Works on IE and Netscape, and runs on open-source amp (apache mysql php) platform. I work for this company and we have already over a 100 company sites using it.
I'd guess so for OS X. It's written in Objective-C, using WebObjects in a GNUStep environment, so the environment is kinda familiar for the Mac OS.
When I started at my current employer we were an all Windows NT 4 company. Our embedded devices used Dos as well. After discussing the benefits of Linux vs. Windows CE/Pocket PC my manager decided we should write our new software for Linux. Although our software isn't open source, it's a minor step forward (in my opinion). One of our former employees who was incharge of shipping wrote all the databases in Access, which up until now has been a pain in the butt to find an alternative. If you have the time using Apache+PHP+MySQL is a great way to integrate a database for general purposes however it's fairly time consuming. Another alternative is using Open Office's data sources functionality and creating your own forms within the documents. It's similar to Access from what I've played with it, but I'm no Access expert. I do know that you access DBase, MySQL, and several other database types and since OpenOffice is available for Windows/Linux it's something to consider. I haven't found anything good as of yet and the accounting department is pretty reluctant to hand over their software for me to test in Wine. =D
Your opinion comes from a demonstrably spurious source.
MySQL and ReiserFS are both made available under the terms of the GNU General Public License.
The GPL allows people to do absolutely whatever they want with software obtained under it, including using it to run their business in a commercial environment. The GPL does not allow one to distribute the product which was obtained through the GPL in a non-GPLed product, or to distribute products which contain GPLed products under a non-GPL license.
MySQL AB and Hans Reiser make their money by offering alternative commercial licenses which will allow you to distribute the work you derive from their work under a non-GPL license. This only means you have to pay them if you want to release software which links to the code they wrote
"Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
Requiring an Oracle license is one thing ..., not working properly with Mozilla is another (you need IE to use it fully in HTML mode). What other options are there?
If you use Oracle Applications, you might be interested in Oracle's announcement that they're going to be supporting Mozilla.
That takes care of half of the problem.
-ez
Karma: Whore (you look at your article scores after posting)
... and get together with an MBA, and write the killer app for OS. Put together a modular business package, customizable for a variety of businesses (that's where you make the money). Look at ACC-PAC for inspiration. Most businesses need :
:)
Accounts Receivable/Customer relations
Accounts Payable/Supplier relations
Inventory
Payroll/ HR management
This ain't rocket surgery. It is painfully dull, boring and potentially stupidly lucrative.
As one person I suggested it to said: "Thom, that would be great but involves two things that geeks hate: writing accounting software, and cold calling."
Most businesses that need this desperately are small to medium sized businesses that are currently using a few thousand dollars worth of computer hardware exactly the same way they would use a two hundred dollar typewriter.
When I started where I work, inventory was typed out in MS Word, and printed out once a year, with additions hand written throughout the year. We're currently paying someone several thousand dollars to write an inventory database for us in Filemaker. Why wasn't this done years ago? THEY DIDN'T KNOW IT COULD BE DONE!!! If you want to make a good living, and can write accounting software, cold call businesses in your area, and tell them:
"I can make the computer work the way YOU want it to work, not make you work the way that off the shelf software wants you to work."
You will make the sale, and you can reuse your code on the next project.
Why don't I do it? I have a job I like more, that pays enough to keep me in all the toys I want.
~ a low user id is no indication I have a clue what I'm talking about.
What he's ticked about is having to put Windows on every desktop because the client end only works on IE (guh!).
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
I am a consultant that started my own thing just about a year ago. I do a lot of day-to-day Windows stuff, but internally run SUSE on just about everything and my wife has a Powerbook.
We use Quickbooks 2003 for accounting. Works well, fairly easy to use for my non-accounting brain. What I did to accomplish this was to run a Windows 2000 Server basically as a terminal server to allow either one of us to use Quickbooks on our boxes. I had the firewall forwarded so my accountant could get into it as well. They key is not to use the box for anything else, no web browsing, no e-mail, no nothing. Keep it patched, toss on a copy of Symantec antivirus, install the free version of SFU and you can back it up over the network on yer linux box. Seems to be the best way to "Windows-enable" your linux network.
I also run Mozilla mail against SUSE OpenExchange Server with great success and happiness. OpenExchange has an excellent web interface to mail as well as document management (with revision control), knowledgebase, contacts with contact history type functionality, job and project tracking (admittedly difficult to use), and internal instant messaging. Can sync yer Palm to it as well, or toss on Outlook with IMAP if you really have to. It's quite an excellent product and the pricing is quite reasonable considering what it can do. Doesn't need huge system resources either. I run it on dual a PIII-866 with 256MB right now--512MB would be quite sufficient. (swaps a bit with 256)
OpenOffice.Org runs on the SUSE desktops and the PowerBook has genuine MS Office X. She gets into some complex Excel formulas and macros so decided to go MS on that one. I have NO problem recommending OpenOffice.Org to anyone doing office tasks. If you gotta have support, go StarOffice from Sun--just as good, only a few bucks.
I haven't really gotten into any of the PHPProjekt-type wares. Seem to be a lot of functionality, but not much of it done up really well, and much less of it useful in and office setting. That groupware "killer app" is still lurking out there somewhere, if it's not the SUSE product.
Linux on the desktop is definately do-able. I do it here. My wife's old PC with XP crashed a few months ago--bought her the PowerBook and never thought about the Windows box again. All of your major tasks can be done on linux. I have an IBM X31 laptop and SUSE Pro 9.0 support all my hardware, including wireless network card and even some funky IBM stuff. I'm sure RedHat would be fine as well, especially on desktop systems--your preference.
The community will get better with accounting-type programs. I think it will probably still be a few years until something surfaces. The Win 2000 as terminal server should suffice until then, and it's not too expensive.
Good luck in your efforts, let us all know how you end up!
-m
http://www.invisik.com
Oracle software is not simple HTML, and I wouldn't say it was developed by ammateurs. Some of you guys just click reply without even reading the full issue and offer usless advice. Whats more interesting is that for some reason it gets moded up.
When you have a database that your business depends on, having it not fully suported is not an option.
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
SAP
* Gives you all the functionality you asked for (and more).
* Server app runs on linux.
* Client UI runs is cross-platform (Java).
It's definitely not free but you said you're willing to pay for the platform..
I've investigated this same issue for a while and I would like to weigh in with the little I've gleaned: First, an observation: Separate notionally the idea of open source and the idea of running on linux/unix / not windows. Essentially, for the enterprise you need a robust Database product, easily achieved opensource via PostgreSQL or MySQL with a plethora of interface design tools available. Perhaps you would consider this bookmark: http://www.dbexperts.net/ Here you are not compromising anything by going opensource! Implement your own CRM in this environment. Open source is not there yet with an accounting package that you want to run your enterprise on. That does not mean you can't run your accounting on Unix/Linux and thereby eschew the Microsoft Domain. Until October 2003 the Silver bullet for enterprise accounting was Appgen. Alas they are in play. Refer to this website to get the latest dope. http://www.aaxnet.com/product/appgn.html This address is for a dedicated VAR who has been tracking the progress of the AppGen product. Worthwhile to click to his homepage while you're there. He speaks gospel. Finally, you need your office product, and since you are on slashdot I am confident you know about openoffice.org. I kind of wish they would make an open office "lite" commensurate with ThinkFree Office in code size, capability etc. because the full open office suite can be overwhelming for some management and clerical types (and even geeks who would rather use other tools to do the esoteric stuff.) Finally, for groupware, I find that although it is a content management system per se, Plone specifically and Zope generally can be used to inplement groupware via opensource. Otherwise use http://www.share360.com/index.cbml which keeps you off microsoft but accesible via Microsoft community. There are probably some great project management products coming online based on opensource. Til then you could demo this product for project management: http://www.webintellisys.com/index.html Hope this stimulates you to fulfill the goal of weaning the backoffice crew from Microsoft SQL, MAS 90, Solomon etc.
Depending on your timeframe, xrms might be a good choice for a CRM package. It's nearing a 1.0 release and eventually will integrate with many of the other apps mentioned here like SQL-Ledger. It's based on PHP running with MySQL or several other databases..
I'm actually in the process of installing xrms as a CRM from a support standpoint, not from a sales one. It has a nice user database, a basic ticketing system, and a fairly polished interface for a new app. It was one of the few that spanned both worlds (support vs. sales) with any finesse.
There are several developers involved that are happy to take suggestions and plan out new features.
In the Portland, Ore area and like card games? Check out: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/portlandgames/
I don't know what no one has really talked about using both. If you want linux on the client use rdesktop to connect to a windows box with terminal services for the software you can't use on Linux or try CrossOver Office the other alternative is to have Windows on the client and use WinAxe or another X server to conenct to Linux. If you don't like thoes ideas you can also use Open Source Windows software
While this is all fine and good. Did it occur to you that indeed MySQL DIDN'T support the functions required?
Any serious SQL based piece of software makes EXTENSIVE use of stored procedures for the simple fact the the stored procedure effectivly sits in a compiled state on the server saving significant time when being run multiple times. As may have become obvious by now MySQL DOESN'T support stored prcedures (or triggers which I could rant on about also). This is no reason in my opinion to claim it MUST run on MS-SQL as I would imagine Postgres would support all the functions it needs.
While MySQL might be good for light DB work, more serious work should be done on a more serious DB package
Normal people worry me!
It was a super nice client until they introduced a bug that can't load the JVM properly.
Until, they fix this, I'll be using Opera.
Has anyone here tried GnuCash?
[Raises hand]
I don't have accounting complicated enough make it worthwhile using accounting software, but I do wonder how it stacks up compared to Quicken
GnuCash is hands down better for a business than Quicken. IMO, it looks much better for business work than Quicken's big brother, QuickBooks. I have some experience setting up QuickBooks and Peachtree accounting systems for mom & pop businesses, and I've run my personal accounting on one version or another of Quickbooks for about 10 years now. I've just changed over to GnuCash at the beginning of the year, as I'm migrating to Linux.
GnuCash is a full-fledged double-entry accounting system with good audit capability (burn a standard General Ledger to CD every end of month, etc), good report features, and by reputation good A/R, A/P, tax, and payroll capabilities (It pleases me that I don't have to explore those myself.) Also by reputation, its customer and vendor tracking is pretty thorough. It also has very good support for online banking and highly regarded multi-currency handling. And since it is GPL, if extensions are needed you could hire a tame programmer to do them (and use the world to beta test his product).
I'd suggest thoroughly exploring GnuCash and using it as a standard to measure other possible accounting systems against. I think it likely that you'd end up choosing GnuCash when all is said and done.
You'd need another database for the non-financial aspects of tending your customers. There are advantages in keeping technical support history, etc, separate from the financial history. At a WAG, I'd bet that one of the Help Desk packages would handle all of the most important parts of this for a VoIP provider. I haven't explored OS Help Desk databases, but I would think there would be some good ones available now.
I think OOo, GnuCash, and some GPL'd Help Desk database would cover most of your software needs. And in Linux, to boot. That will carve your potential licensing and support costs down quite a bit.
GnuCash isn't suited for business because it does not really use true double-accounting....Because of that, compared to Quicken it sucks and is totally unusuable for a business.
Please mod parent down into oblivion.
GnuCash is a double entry accounting system.
Quickbooks is a double entry accounting system.
Quicken, though, is a glorified checkbook register program, not an accounting system.
While OpenMFG (www.openmfg.com) is not itself open source, it is built of 100% OSS components (PostgreSQL, QT) . And it's a lot more polished than currently available OSS packages. If you want CRM/ERP/Accounting that's better than Compiere, then it may be the choice for you.
HOWEVER, one thing you'll notice is that most OSS or OSS-built software for CRM+Accounting is oriented around the manufacturing industry. There is very little for the service or licensed professional industry. This is becuase in the US, manufacturers have led the adoption of open source and tend to be a lot more DIY about software than other businesses.
You *could* build something yourself, starting with SQL Ledger. I've done this professionally; it will cost about $150,000 and take one to two years. This will give you a system that is custom-tailored to your business, as well as a potential backup line of income when your main VoIP business collapses. But it will most likely play hell with your rollout schedule.
http://www.erp5.org/linux.html
In an OSS environment you can use windows apps.
Set up one Windows server with Citrix Metaframe, install the needed Windows applications and share them seamlessly to the users desktops using Citrix. There is a Citrix ICA client available for Linux and it works well.
This should solve your problems without having to change the user environment to windows.
We had a related problem, although in a smaller way.
Our core business software requires Windows on client machines and MS SQL Server. Since, the database is SQL, we can query it to extract information directly while sending all inputs through Windows front end client. In order to make the information in the database available to our Linux intranet webserver we built a SOAP layer between the MS SQL Server and webserver.
The SOAP layer consists of a SOAP server, written in Delphi. The SOAP server comprises a core and .dlls that handle requests for different services. A dll can be written to execute specific queries and return the results or provide a generic SQL functionality which is OK for small result sets.
At the webserver end, we use cgi programs, written in Kylix or Python, which call method made avaialble by the SOAP server and its modules. For Kylix, we have a SOAPSQLQuery component that can be used rather like and other Delphi/Kylix dataset components.
This means that we can use information from the database to provide access to information via web browsers on desktops running Windows or Linux.
The SOAP server is now used for all database access, irrespective of the OS of the querying machine, to provide flexibility for the future. For example, Word and a Word add-in that gets name and address info for letters can easily be replaced by OpenOffice on Linux and a Java component because the actual database access is performed by the SOAP server and the SOAP interface is constant and simple to use.
the online version of quickbooks requires IE because it has some goofy ActiveX controls. I thought about using this for my startup consulting firm (we're all *nix heads so we all have Linux workstations, but none of us could get QuickBooks On-line to work -- you can't make it to the app without spoofing your HTTP Agent type, and even then you get nothing useable.
Cheers
"This above all, to thine own self be true"