Slashdot Mirror
Kazaa Offices Raided
rj writes "ZDNet Australia is reporting the Music Industry Piracy Investigations (MIPI) this morning raided the offices of Kazaa owners, Sharman Networks, along with P2P company Brilliant Digital Entertainment, and the homes of key executives. Background on prosecution of copyright music in Australia over P2P is also available."
I understand raiding the offices but the homes to? This smells a lot like the US patriot act
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
I have been pwned because my
Did they think they had a slew of mp3s sitting around on cds in their homes? I know that raiding the offices and homes of execs is fairly common in accounting scandals and the like, but this seems a bit overkill.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Well, who's going to stop Billionares with cops?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
I shall go and tell the indestructible man that someone plans to murder him.
They don't need jurisdiction over the servers, just over the people using them.
Jason
ProfQuotes
Yes, stopping Kazaa will end music piracy in Australia. Because nobody has ever heard of
None of which look like they're going away.
WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
Use Your Forgotten Brain. Just because it's not in the US, doesn't mean it can't smell like the stench surrounding the abuses of liberty that the US Patriot Act articulates. Abuse of law enforcement for private gain is not limited to President VP Cheney and his "Justice" department henchmen. I bet your "conservative" values think that librarians are commies, because they encourage sharing.
--
make install -not war
I thought only the cops could performs raids! Thank god this is in australia....if Fritz Hollings has his way we will probably have special music industy SWAT teams roaming the country soon.
Sherman Networks would be bloody stupid to have anything illegal (music/software/etc) on any of their computers and I really doubt they had anything.
This just seems like the MIPI along with the rest of the record industry is trying to harass Sherman Networks into going away. Personally I don't like/use KaZaa or any other P2P utility, but I think it's a necessary evil.
Oh well, if they should manage to close down KaZaa, there's plenty of underground alternatives for the (ab)users. Seems like wasted resources from a desperate industry.
The argument that this even remotely has anything to do with the patriot act is stupid. It certainly has no provisions for raiding people's homes on behalf of the record industry. The people you should be directing your anger towards is more than likely the RIAA, who's undoubtedly the puppet master for this MIPI thing.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Well, if 99% of alleys were filled with drug pushers, and 99% of the people who used the alleys were drug pushers, then yes, i'd be supporting shutting down alleys.
Do you really think that more than 1% of the traffic on Kazaa comes from legitimate sharing? The network operators could easily log the names of files that are being downloaded. They don't, because that information could be subpeonaed, and it would give clear indication that Kazaa is a copyrighted music/video swapping tool.
Sure, there are some legitimate uses for file sharing, like swapping public domain files. But ask almost any college student what kazaa is, and they'll explain that it is for sharing music...
It's a bit of a cop-out to say that the creators of a network of file sharing systems can't be responsible for its content. There is nothing stopping them from being responsible for the content - they could require shareable files to be hashed and verified before they could be shared.
However, if you are saying that the creators of the filesharing networks are responsible, then the logical extension of your argument would be to say that the builders of the alleys should be held resposible for the actions of those who occupy their creations.
Sorry, but that simply doesn't make sense.
(sorry, screwed the first post up. go ahead, mod it down.)
stuff
I'm Australian with an Iranian background and have never, ever experienced any racism. I also have many International friends studying in various Universities of Australia - again, no racism.
I think the problem is people take offense to playful comments too easily.
If this kind of thing is valid, I don't see where so many .au slashdotters get off saying that the US is a police state. What bollix and hypocricy.
Where's the hypocrisy in that??
If your own country act like this, can't you comment about other countries where police can do the same?
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Well, if 99% of alleys were filled with drug pushers, and 99% of the people who used the alleys were drug pushers, then yes, i'd be supporting shutting down alleys.
Well, I wouldn't approve, simply because it was a bad idea to outlaw drugs in the first place. Oulawing drugs created a whole new slew of secondary crimes and enough incentives for organized crime to move in.
--
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
I think they're hoping to find pirated or illegal ANYTHING in the executive houses or anything of Sharman's networks.
I think their plan is to do a raid and even if it turns up ONE slightly dodgy file, they're going to use that to link it with Kazaa and music piracy... which may give them a leg to stand on in court.
The issue is this: these days its pretty damn hard to find a single PC out there without one slightly dodgy file on it.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
I sense a pattern...
The United States, which started as property of the British Empire, has begun to revoke its citizen's rights.
Austrailia, which ALSO started off as a branch of the British Empire, has started raiding the home, read: Private Dwellings, of people that work at a place that happens to traffic copyrighted material. They weren't even searched by law enforcement officers.
Does this mean that India is going to make it mandatory to consume beef, or something? Are the citizens of Ireland going to lose their rights, next? What about you silly Brits, are you next?
Learn something new.
It makes perfect sense. You're just a moron. It's very simple.
Beretta makes guns. A man buys a beretta. He shoots another person in the head with that gun, and pistol whips two other witnesses, breaking their nose and causing severe bleeding. The guy who got shot in the face dies, and the other two need major reconstructive surgery on their faces.
DO WE HOLD BERETTA RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS TAKEN WITH THEIR TOOL? NO. EVEN THOUGH WE KNOW THE ONLY USE FOR THE GUN IS TO TAKE THE LIFE OF A LIVING ENTITY!!!!
Kazaa has legitimate uses. It is a fucking tool! The tool is not illegal, it is how the tool is used. Kazaa and any other developer or company should *not* be attacked for how other individuals use their product.
You're a fucking idiot. There is absolutely no reason to 'raid' these peoples homes OR offices.
As a side note, you can't shut down the alleys, nor can you shut down the trade of information. It cannot and will not be stopped. None of these laws mean anything. They aren't laws at all. The only true laws are laws of physics; they cannot be broken, as a result they are laws. All other 'laws' are simple guidelines.
If you took off your tinfoil hat, you'd notice that government raids of people's homes, on the pretext that their company might have been abused by other people to ignore copyrights, is government by fear and threat of force: fascism. Why is the air so thick with Anonymous Cowards reeling at the charges of fascism?
--
make install -not war
Well, if 99% of alleys were filled with drug pushers, and 99% of the people who used the alleys were drug pushers, then yes, i'd be supporting shutting down alleys.
Instead of making it useless for drug pushers to operate? Or making pushing legal? Seems to me it would be alot easier than outlawing alleys and forcing everybody that lives in the city to move to a country house.
The same applies to P2P. Wouldn't it make more sense to redraft copyright law instead of trying to force people to submit to idiotic markets and ban technology?
No? Well, tough shit, people are going to continue to live in cities and people are going to continue to steal content as long as it costs way too much.
The music and movie industry has had 50 golden years to put away some money for a rainy day. If they were stupid enough to think that movie theaters, radio stations and music discs were an eternal cash-cow while using their profits to build castles in the sand, well... give them a Darwin Award.
Don't make the rest of the population pay for bad economics and planning.
If you shut down the alleys the drug pushers would simply move somewher else. Like the mall. Shut down that and they move again and again and again..
What of usenet? Couldn't Kazaa proclaim to be a content carrier? There are a lot of venues where there is a good deal of bandwidth utilized for piracy and the (now very liberal definition of) breaching copyright material.
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
I guess the good ol' US of A is still the highest bastion of personal and business privacy in the world eh? Yeah this happened in Australia... not that I have a prob with Australians mind you... but well it appears that they have different laws 'down under'.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Yes, yes, a substantial portion of Kazaa and other file-sharing programs/networks are in use illegally.
However, there is also a substantial portion which is used for, among other things, advertisements, legal restores (example: a long time ago, I used a file sharing network to backup an mp3 which I legally owned... the original had been corrupted during a backup to a bad CD; I lost a lot of data, but most of it didn't turn out to be important, luckily), and semi-legal file transfers (where the host might be in, say, Japan where the file is illegal, but the downloader is in the US where there is no copyright and is therefore legal).
With all due respect, sir, I think you're focusing on the negative side of file sharing.
~UP
Eat the Path.
If 99% of the use of alleys was drug dealing I'd expect the cops to be stamping it out so that the other 1% can enjoy their alleys legitimately not be raiding the offices of the town councils who own them.
The motor car is used in huge numbers of crime getaways yet nobody sued Ford or suggests Ford fits cars with cameras that look for money bags and refuse to start the engine otherwise.
Similarly the music industry should be looking for people who are actually breaking the law not harassing those providing tools with legitimate other uses.
and we are already paying a percentage on storage media to artists even though some of us don't even download MP3s!!!
We already payed for that music already through our taxes and hidden fees.
Where does it end?
It's time we cut the free money flow to these thieves.
As far as I understand a substantial chunk of p2p network is used for porn sharing. So I dont think its anything even closer to 90%.
Ah, so all porn is completely public domain, and not at all copyrighted?
You can't seriously believe that.
-- Give him Head? Be a Beacon? :P)
(If you can't figure out how to E-Mail me, Don't.
>>Even google is misused heavily. That doesn't mean that google should be shutdown.
How exactly is google misused?
It appears that the United States isn't the only country where the right to privacy is extinct.
They must get permission and you can deny them entry, but if you do, you're a criminal and have committed the crime of contempt of court. What kind of law is that!?
I thought they broke the mold with Ashcroft. But apparently his minions have inhabited this Earth for some time now. Scary.
From a movie I once saw... Screaming "They're all over the place. We'll never get rid of them."
"Kazaa and the Sherman Networks people would be better off moving to somewhere like Yemen, China or Cuba, where even though you don't have some rights, I doubt they go busting down doors over copyright."
Oh ya China, good idea, as long as you they did not facilitate the proliferation of information/material of which challenges the "Party".
"Between 1994 and the present, China's rules and regulations on the Internet became progressively more comprehensive, moving from efforts to regulate Internet business to restrictions on news sites and chat rooms. These regulations give the government wide discretion to arrest and punish any form of expression. For example, "topics that damage the reputation of the State" are banned, but an Internet user has no way of knowing what topics might be considered injurious." More here
They already banned google
Yemen sounds good too right?
Too bad they pretty much banned the Internet in Cuba.
"History teaches us that anyone who tries to get in the way of progress either gets a war against them or is bypassed. Or to put it in other terms "nature finds a way"."
You mean like all the wonderful progess we see in China?
The RIAA is dying - just a matter of time.
"The USA was built on some principles of being a new, golden land. It's heading for decline into conservatism and corruption. I think that China and India will be the new superpowers."
I suggest you read The Declaration of Independence
Actualy i think on some level, copying music does lead to greater expenditure. I wouldnt say that it leads to greater expenditure on a nation or world wide scale but there are people that will copy music before even having heard it, just because its free.
I've done this several time and it lead me to purchase the next albums by those artists.
Although i'll admit, when i was younger, this free music thing was awsome to me and i'd copy things left right and center. I even resorted to buying a CD once, copying it and returning it to the store for another CD which i liked. Criminal, yes i know.
But theres several sides to the copywrite story, but each and everytime people only seem to mention one of them. Here i've mentioned two and im sure there are others.
Giving IE users a taste of their own medicine since 2005 - http://pods.-is-a-geek.net/
Sure, there are some legitimate uses for file sharing, like swapping public domain files. But ask almost any college student what kazaa is, and they'll explain that it is for sharing music...
Music can be legitamately shared. That more than anything is what the MIPI and RIIA and other goons are trying quietly to suppress. The "one percent" as you call it of legitimate use. People like Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel who are releasing (and helping other artists to release) music on their own terms, thus shutting out the recording industry. If this were to continue, in five years that could be 20-25%. So, if the RIIA and others shout PIRATE loud enough in the right ears, no one will ever notice those people and before long they will be legislated (coerced) into either A. Recording music with the industry or B. Not recording music. These people are thugs and are using heavy handed monopolistic practices as well as sly legal trickery to perpetuate their empires. Sorry you can't see that.
The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal!
Actually, it's not even stealing according to the law. You do, however, have a (populistic) point.
However, the real reason behind all the fuss is the big money. If media-companies had not invested loads of money in these more and more obsolete delivery mechanisms, there would not be a problem. The question isn't if media publsihers going to get paid per se, but rather if the current media publishers are going to get paid according to outdated business practices.
All in all: if you don't have a product that people want to buy, either your product sucks or it's too expensive. Tough titty.
If Sharman networks is encouraging piracy, then gun manufacturers are encouraging murder. But you don't see Smith & Wesson getting raided. Granted it's less trivial for me to obtain a gun and make the decision to shoot somebody, but I wouldn't have that power at all if nobody was making them. And that power will likely remain available to me for the rest of my days.
By the same logic it can be said that producers of alcohol, and car manufacturers combined encourage drunk driving, because these two products are used in conjunction quite a lot, yet both industries continue to thrive unmolested.
It comes down to personal choices made by the individuals who use these products. I dislike Sharman Networks for getting into bed with BDE and their 'secret' trojan module, and as much as I'd like to see them get a smackdown, I really hope they can just walk away from this.
"the US is the most important trade partner for Australia"
Funny, I don't remember buying any kangaroos lately. Just what exactly does Australia export to the US? Personally, if I were Australian, I'd start asking the government in my best "you don't get reelected until I get some answers" tone just what exactly compels them to kiss John Ashcroft's ass.
What bad economics and planning would that be? Creating a product and then selling it?
No it would be relying on an inefficient distribution monopoly for profits.
The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal!
Wrong again. The reason they are in trouble is that they are producing a product, the distribution of music, that is obsolete (well soon anyway) thanks to new technology.
And don't be so unwise as to call illegal copying "stealing" as you might then easily miss the fact that illegal copying is hugely productive, which in turn means that you will probably miss a sane solution to the whole issue.
Anyone who generalizes about slashdotters is a typical slashdotter.
You obviously don't share porn on the p2p networks. Most of it is homemade and originally distributed by the people who made it. Certainly a percentage of it is cut from actual movies, but the majority is what is referred to as "amateur" work.
Erm.. I've got gigs and gigs of the stuff, and only a very small percentage of it is home-made. The bulk of it has been lifted from pay-sites and DVD-rips or captured from video tape. Or were you talking about kiddie porn?
> What bad economics and planning would that be? Creating a product and then selling it?
Let me tell you a bit of history, it is about an industry called the recording industry...
More then a century ago now, it became practical to make audio recordings and reproduce them.
Untill that day, when someone wanted to listen to music, the only way was to get someone to play live music.
Now, this new invention that allowed recording and reproducing music (and sound in general) meant that peopel coudl listen to music without needign a live performance, and coudl do so whenever they wanted.
This of course put many artists, theatre owners and employees out of their job and business.
However, some others actually proffited from it, and bullt what we now know as the recording industry.
THe bad planning that the recording industry is doing now is not realizing that what they have depends on a bit of technology that will not last forever. They started by using new technology, and yet they failed to plan for their technology getting outdated (hey that only happens to others0
> The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is
> easy to steal! If it wasn't, they would be in the green right now.
This is often claimed by the music industry, but so far they failed to make any believable argument to support this claim.
It most likely plays a role, but I do not see any reason for believing it is the only or even the most imporytant factor.
> As I see it, downloading an MP3 is like shoplifting. No, it isn't a big deal, but it's
> still breaking the law, and wrong.
It is breaking the law, if it is wrong is another thing.
Don't get me wrong, I rather want artists to get payed for their works, and probably more important, I believe a copyright holder has some rights to determine how the work he/she created is used.
Havign said that, I also believe that a substantial part of what is produced by the music industry does not qualify for beign 'creative' in any way, and as such should be impossible to get copyright on to begin with.
This however is the result of a deal bewteen society and creative people.
The problems are 2fold:
First of all, it is usually not creative people who control copyrights, but business people. As a result, creators do not proffit from copyright usually, hence copyright fails to forfill its purpose, and does nto give artists any 'rights' usually
Second, those business people broke the deal with society by refusign to forfill their side of the deal (adding things to the public domain once they had their time of monopoly)
Due to the 2nd, I cannot see taking such copyrighted material as wrong, I see it merely as compensation of failure by the recording industry to forfill their part of the deal, and due to the first I also do not see how it directly affects the rights of creative people.
Is this moded +5 Funny, because we all have given in and realised that this is the future?
I mean, it's not funny! It's not even unlikely with the development we see worldwide these days (weak goverments, mighty corporations).
I'd give this post +5, Apocalyptical yet realistic, but for some odd reason that moderation doesn't exist... Oh. And now I can't moderate.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
None of us would wish to whittle down that principle in the slightest. But the order sought in this case is not a search warrant. It does not authorize the plaintiff's solicitors or anyone else to enter the defendants' premises against their will. Id does not authorize the breading down of any doors, nor the slipping in by a back door, nor getting in by an open door or window. It only authorizes entry and inspection by the permission of the defendants. The plaintiff's must get the defendants' permission. But it does do this: it brings pressure on the defendants to give permission. It does more. It actually orders them to give permission - with, I suppose, the result that if they do not give permission they are guilty of contempt of court.
Jesus tapdancing Christ. I thought Orwell said 1984, not 1976!
That's the most shocking example of doublethink I've ever seen.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Interesting! Now local fascists are enforcing American Fascist Laws.... Well, this proves that the Fascist States of AmeriKa do not have to use their army of stupidly obeying idiots to get their way. There are enough American emulating idiots in other countries to do their work for them. Maybe when Microsoft is allowed to raid homes to look for commie, pinko, Linux crackers, you all will wake up! (in jail that is)...
The only reason the entertainment industry is having trouble right now is because their product is easy to steal! If it wasn't, they would be in the green right now.
Got facts? Because I have the perennial "music sales went up while Napster was around and dropped off when it died". "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc", but it's more "evidence" than you posted.
On top of that, wouldn't Occam's Razor suggest that the simplest explanation to this problem is that people don't want to buy the music? Why would the remedy to that automatically be assumed to be anything other than the product itself for this particular industry, when common sense and prior knowledge tells us that the most common reason for people not purchasing a product is an inability to percieve a value in that purchase? Or, to put it more bluntly: the most likely reason people aren't buying this or any other product is that they don't think it's worth it.
Now, if you have some evidence that suggests something other than the common wisdom, I'm all ears. I'm not too proud to learn something new.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
If 98% of the alleys were filled with drugs, wouldn't it just be more efficient to legalize drugs?
How about the people who make the billionares? If people would only stop buying music!
...///...
and get shot the instant you set your first foot on the premises. No vigilant citizen should be expected to allow this madness. If the government does not protect you and your property from private intervention, heck, if it even endorses private break-in as similar to law enforcement with a warrant and due process unter public scrutiny, then it is the right and the duty of all law abiding citizens to withstand and prevent these actions and even if it sounds provocative: by all means necessary.
The United States of America have a long tradition of people's rights, human rights, democracy and personal freedom. If someone is undermining the very foundations of this country, if they try to finally corrupt the entire state starting with the legislative process through bought senators, bypassing the judicial branch through their own actions and even replacing the executive branch with their own mobsters, it is time for every citizen to react. Form militias, arm yourselves. This is exactly what the second amendmendment was created for: empowering the citizen to protect himself from unwarranted searches, abuse of governemntal powers and the failure of the offical system. Don't tolerate private companies violating private property! Don't tolerate companies who subvert the legal process! Don't tolerate the corruption of the land of the free!
And please remember the following sentences: "I don't agree with what you said, but I'd fight to my death for your right to say it!".
I don't endorse the breach of copyright or anything like that. Even if Sharman Networks did violate this law or another, I will not hesitate to fight with them or anyone else who is denied his constitutional rights and due process over a non-violent, non-capital and non-life threatening crime.
(Even if it sounds provocative or flamebait, it is not meant as such. I truly believe in the law and the constitution as the only rightful way to run a country. Posting logged-in to emphase this, even if the TIA and the rest of the three-letter agency scum will have a field day with their eternal databases. And yes, I reinstate: this comment is about about militant actions against the enemies of the constitution and yes I do make a call to arms against attempts to corrupt the last ones of our private rights.)
By the people - for the people. Nothing else!
This is not tin-foil hats, this is real. The U.S. Patriot act gives the government the right to go into your house go through your computer and never tell anyone they were there. Also, if you happen to figure out they were there, and you tell anyone, they can put you in jail.
Welcome to your country...
"The world only exists in your eyes. You can make it as big or as small as you want." - F Scott Fitzgerald
one motivated marine and his rifle
I see you've bought yer DVDs and movie tickets...
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
This is, after all, the home of Rubert Murdoch. Rubert Murdoch, is after all, the biggest piece of trash in the known universe. FOX News is perhaps the larger purveyor of bullshit politics, including "conservative" policies of big government, foreign intervention, individual rights curtailment and the big "P" word - PIRACY. They may have not started it, but they certainly promoted the use of the term "pirate" for people who make copies of CDs and movies for personal, private use.
The only thing that is defensible about FOX is the Simpsons and to some extent Family Guy.
They have promoted war - for which they better start using those billions to air condition Hell, and for all we know, that bastard engineered the Bali bombing just to get Australia "into the war" - securing the old ties of white english speaking people under the stars and bars, if not the union jack.
Australia is a country by, of and for the corporation, just a sunnier and more laid back police state.
While I don't know about the validity of the concept, I do know that there have been studies done exploring the concept that use of prostitutes (as well as having other sexual partners) outside of the marriage can help strengthen and keep the marriage together.
::: TANGENT AHEAD :::
Note that this isn't the same as "fidelity" in marriage, though. Some people have different concepts on what marriage and mutual love can mean/represent. Marriage is more of a contract of trust and commitment. That doesn't mean that two people (who are married) couldn't come to a mutual, trusted agreement to allow each other to seek partners outside of marriage (ie, "open marriages"). It is when that trust breaks down (ie, not telling the other person - whether that is at the beginning or elsewise, not sharing feelings, etc), that the marriage is likely to fall apart.
This is where the concept of poligamy (and polyamory) is twisted in so many individual's minds. For these people, it seems inconceivable that more than two (unrelated) people can love each other in both a mutual and sexually based manner revolving around trust - yet have no problem with the concept of loving families (that is, groups of family-related people who love each other in a mutual, non-sexual, and trusted manner).
Once again, if the trust breaks down - whether it is between two people in a traditional or "open" marriage, three or more people in a polygamous or polyamorous "marriage", many people (in a traditional loving family), or hundreds of people (in a corporation) - that structure is going to break down. We see it with so-called "loving" marriages that fall apart, dysfunctional families on Jerry Springer (I know, cheap shot), and Enron.
It has nothing to do with the structure, but rather the trust (and in the case of marriages and families, the love being exchanged via that trust).
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
You totally missed his point. If a technology has a use protected by the Constitution then the potential legal remedies for misuse are necessarily more limited, i.e., the aggrieved party cannot ask a court to shut the technology down.
Of course, this thread is US-centric, how this relates to Australia where these searches happened isn't as clear, but the Australian recording industry clearly wants to shut Kazaa down.
The RIAA is a dying animal...
The RIAA and SCO have so much in common. Who wants to bet the MPAA will follow suit?
Mod Up!
Wanted: One Motivated Marine. Must provide Rifle. Other Expenses covered. Includes one-way ticket to Utah.
~~~~~
HARTMAN: Do any of you people know who Charles Whitman was? No response.
HARTMAN: None of you dumbasses knows?
COWBOY raises his hand.
HARTMAN: Private Cowboy?
COWBOY: Sir, he was that guy who shot all those people from that tower in Austin, Texas, sir!
HARTMAN: That's affirmative. Charles Whitman killed twenty people from a twenty-eight-story observation tower at the University of Texas from distances up to four hundred yards.
HARTMAN: looks around.
HARTMAN: Anybody know who Lee Harvey Oswald was? Almost everybody raises his hand.
HARTMAN: Private Snowball?
SNOWBALL: Sir, he shot Kennedy, sir!
HARTMAN: That's right, and do you know how far away he was?
SNOWBALL: Sir, it was pretty far! From that book suppository building, sir!
The recruits laugh at "suppository."
HARTMAN: All right, knock it off! Two hundred and fifty feet! He was two hundred and fifty feet away and shooting at a moving target. Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a head shot! Do any of you people know where these individuals learned to shoot?
JOKER raises his hand.
HARTMAN: Private Joker?
JOKER: Sir, in the Marines, sir!
HARTMAN: In the Marines! Outstanding! Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do! And before you ladies leave my island, you will be able to do the same thing!
~~~~~
http://www.short-timers.com/fmj.html
"When I am king, you will be first against the wall..."
I remember saying the words "against all enemies foreign and domostic" once in my life. This is without a doubt a domestic enemy of the constitution, I fully plan to uphold that oath.