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How C# Was Made
prostoalex writes "Bruce Eckel (from the Thinking in C++/Java/Patterns/Enterprise Java fame) and Bill Venners have interviewed programming legend Anders Hejlsberg. After 13 years in Borland and joining Microsoft in 1996, Hejlsberg now leads the development of C# language and talks about the development process, reasons some things exist in C# and some not, as well as future directions."
There a great interview with The father of C# here too,
There is a pretty good interview on the .NET show on MSDN with Anders too. It runs about one hour, so get a comfy chair.
...right here to save you a click thru the MSDN page.
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Microsoft starts trying to tell people that "OO is soo... yeasterday. You want Indigo."
You're referring to Don Box, specifically, right? I don't think it's so much that Don is pooh-pooh'ing OOP in general, it's that he feels that a service-oriented architecture is better suited to the kind of problems we face today than DCOM or CORBA. His point is that trying to use an OOP metaphor for enormous, architecturally sound remote object invocation/data transfer systems is a terribly complex task.
Also, keep in mind that Don wrote *the* book on Microsoft's COM technology; OOP has its place, but CORBA and DCOM are not really the place.
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Also, just in case you're curious as to how his last name is pronounced, it's pronounced hells-burg.
:). "berg", the "g" is more or less mute, so it pronounced more like "bear".
No, it most certainly is not!
First its Hejlsberg, not Hejlsburg. "Hejl" is pronounced just like "Heil", as a german would in a WW2 movie
So its "Heils-bear"
I don't know why Java developers always feel the need to point out that C# took a lot of ideas from Java. I don't see C++ developers always pointing out that Java's mandate was to "co-opt" C++. Of course C# took a lot of ideas from Java (I don't think Microsoft has ever denied this), because Java got a lot of things right. C# also made a lot of improvements (event handling is MUCH improved in C# for example) and is a great language to program in. I think it would be even better if there were a .NET runtime for an OS other than Windows, but the good people on the Mono project are working on that already.
It's well known that the C# designers paid a lot of attention to Java, but more importantly, it's also quite clear that they also spent a lot of time paying attention to the experience of developing in Java.
So while I might not entirely agree with the uncaught exceptions or the way methods aren't virtual by default, I do think it would be a good idea for Sun to take the lesson from MS, and take what is best about C# and move it into Java.
In a sense, Java was designed to co-opt C++. But co-optinging C++ was not made as a business decision to lock in Sun customers, it was made as part of Sun's vision of "The Net is the Computer" (or whatever they called it).
Sun embraced the internet years before Microsoft and looked out into the future and realized that desktop computing and huge, standalone applications were going to be increasingly replaced by device computing and small, internet downloadable applications would be prevalant.
To that end, they tried to design a language that was simple, that had built-in libraries to handle basic internet protocols and to a large extent, their vision was spot-on and Java was hugely successful.
Without Microsoft spending years trying to undercut them it's very conceivable that Java would be the lingua-franca of the internet right now.
-- You see, there would be these conclusions that you could jump to
What are you talking about? Nobody uses java for "internet downloadable applications", or even intranet downloadable ones. Their vision of thin-client computing was shown to be a pipe dream, to everyone except you anyway.
...wearing a skin-tight topless leather jumpsuit, with cutaway buttocks and transparent crotch panel.
I thought my amplifier was cool for going up to 11, but it can't compete with a piano that goes up to W!
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Java was designed to co-opt Smalltalk, or at least Sun brand it and bring it up to date.
Think about it... Smalltalk's main points were the single root object heirarchy, the bytecode compilation, and the large runtime library including full GUI. Did C++ have this? No. It was more "object oriented concepts ported to C" - lean and mean, machine dependant and no standard GUI. The C++ generics and the STL weren't standard when Java arrived.
Does my bum look big in this?
Gonna burn some karma on this...
;) And yes, I am just teasing.
Gandalf: This is C#. Forged by the Dark Lord and his engineers in the fires of Mount Redmond. Taken by him from the hand of evil himself. All who use it are bound to him. Gates needs only this ring to cover all the lands of a second darkness... He is seeking it, seeking it; all his thought is bent on it.
Frodo: Alright, we put it away. We keep it hidden. We never speak of it again... No one knows its here, do they? Do they, Gandalf?
Gandalf: Unfortunately, yes. The power of Gates is far reaching. The innocent would use C# from a desire to do good, but through them, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
You get the idea...
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms."
Java supports both checked and unchecked throwables: the latter with the class Error.
Unchecked exceptions should be derived from the RuntimeException class. Generally subclasses of Error are not meant to be caught ("An Error is a subclass of Throwable that indicates serious problems that a reasonable application should not try to catch" - from the Javadoc for Error).
you don't want to declare that every method doing division throws DivideByZero
That doesn't throw an exception/error at all, it returns NaN.
there's a bunch of things like IOException that IMHO should have been Errors
IOException is something that needs to be checked. It can occur because of low disk space, broken network connections (including NFS mounts), bad character coding, etc. Even FileNotFoundException is a subclass of it.
I think on many issues, Hejlsberg is missing the point and the reasons he gives aren't necessarily the actual reasons why particular design tradeoffs are good ones.
.NET) may turn out to be the free and open language that Java should have been; time will tell.
But it really doesn't matter. The changes that C# made relative to Java are obvious and proven (e.g., value classes, removal of statically checked exception declarations, declared unsafe code sections). Many of them had made Sun's bug parade. All of them had been in other languages before either Java or C#. In fact, C# is, in many ways, close to Modula-3.
There seems to be another reason for some of the design decisions: patents. Sun has patents on several aspects of the JVM and Java, and if Microsoft wanted to be free of potential future claims by Sun, they had to avoid those in their own competing virtual machine.
Keep in mind that Hejlsberg is also a salesperson for the language anyway. That means that he may not be telling you the real reasons behind design decisions, but the reasons that sell the language well.
In any case, however it came into existence, C# is a somewhat better language than Java, and we should be happy about that: whether you are planning on using C# or not, it raises the bar for what is considered standard in industry. Without C#, Sun probably wouldn't even have made the largely cosmetic changes they made to Java in 1.5, and maybe the continued existence of C# will force them to fix other misfeatures of Java and the JVM in future versions. And C# (but not
C++ is the opposite. In C++, you can do anything you damn well please on a variable of a type parameter type. But then once you instantiate it, it may not work, and you'll get some cryptic error messages. For example, if you have a type parameter T, and variables x and y of type T, and you say x + y, well you had better have an operator+ defined for + of two Ts, or you'll get some cryptic error message. So in a sense, C++ templates are actually untyped, or loosely typed. Whereas C# generics are strongly typed.
// . . .
I disagree with that assessment. Both C# and C++ generics/templates are strongly typed. It's just that the enforcement happens in different places.
In C++, if you try to stick a class into a templated class when that class doesn't have a particular member function defined, the compiler will yell at you, just like Hejlsberg said. But for some reason, this doesn't count as type checking? Yes, template error messages can be strange (and very long) if you're not familiar with them. But that's just a lesson in "know your tools."
To me, "strongly typed" is strict type enforcement at compile time. C++ templates certainly do this.
Constraints, however, are something that I think are a generally good idea. Stroustrup's reasoning for not including them in C++ was that "Requiring the user to provide such information decreases the flexibility of the parameterization facility without easing the implementation or increasing the safety of the facility." (The Design and Evolution of C++, Stroustrup, 343).
He does, however, show an interesting way to get around this using inheritance:
template <class T>
class Comparable {
T& operator=(const T&);
int operator==(const T&, const T&);
int operator<=(const T&, constT&);
int operator<(const T&, const T&);
};
template <class T : Comparable>
class vector {
};
(The D&E of C++, Stroustrup, 344)
This technique is similar to how C# does constraints, class List where T: IComparable. One is supported and enforced by the language, the other is a natural consequence of the languages facilities. In general, I think that constraints are probably a good thing. Having an error message like "Can not instantiate class Y<T> because T does not implement z()" is probably best, and when looking at a class' declaration, it would be nice to see up front what assumptions the templated class makes.