GameCube Successor For E3 2005?

Yorrike writes "An article over at GamesIndustry.biz states that, contrary to previously debunked rumors, Nintendo is preparing its next-generation console for public view at E3 2005, which is only 15 months away. From the article: 'Minagawa went further than that, however, giving a bit of insight into the company's thinking on the next-generation N5 platform: 'Like our Nintendo DS portable game machine, our home game machine must offer an experience that can be enjoyed by adults, children, or women,' he commented, and then revealed that 'we would like to show this at E3 next spring.''."

Comments

Go Big N!

[PhoenixOne]

Sometimes they win, sometimes the fail, but they tend to make interesting products. :)

Mis-translation? Hopefully

[Chasuk]

our home game machine must offer an experience that can be enjoyed by adults, children, or women

Women aren't adults in Japanese culture, or is this just a mis-translation? Or just a Freudian slip on Minagawa's part?

Hmm

[NedR]

Maybe this time they'll be able to avoid some of the mistakes that have plagued the Gamecube, such as too much focus on first-party software and not enough focus on third, lack of DVD playability (let's face it, there's no good reason for them to make their game discs that small), not enough focus on online games, etc. Nintendo learned some pretty tough lessons from the GC, let's just hope that they apply those lessons as needed.

And by the way; "Children, adults, and women?"

Re:Hmm

[BFedRec]

I don't think the lack of DVD playback hurt them all that much. When the PS2 hit it was a big selling point for it, but the next Nintendo machine doesn't need it at ALL. When the PS2 hit a DVD player was $100+ but now a new system isn't really needing DVD playback due to the cheapness of DVD players. In fact it would help Nintendo MUCH more if they KEPT the same format and had some backwards compatability built in. At least that's MY opinion.

CharlesP

Re:Hmm

[NanoGator]

"such as too much focus on first-party software and not enough focus on third"

Though I agree with this, it has nothing to do with the Gamecube. Rather, it's business policy. Yes, they need to change it, and the next system would be a good time to try that, but remember that Nintendo is making a personal fortune off the GC even though it's not #1.

"lack of DVD playability (let's face it, there's no good reason for them to make their game discs that small)"

You lost me here.

a.) You can buy a DVD Player for $40. You don't need your game machine to absorb this capability. It might have helped the PS2, but this next time around it's not going to be much of a BFD.

b.) There's no good reason for making the discs that small? What are you smoking? They're not as succeptable to accidental damage, they're far more portable, and who'd really be that surprised if GameBoy 3 played those discs?

"not enough focus on online games, etc."

Online games are not making or breaking the PS2 or XBOX, and they certainly didn't prevent the Dreamcast from tanking. Nintendo did not make a mistake here. What would have been a mistake is if Nintendo did include broadband capabilities + the ability to play DVDs, and the machine was $100 more expensive as a result.

Re:Hmm

[Yorrike]

let's face it, there's no good reason for them to make their game discs that small

One of the main problems Nintendo had with moving to an optical format was load times. An 8mm disc at high rpm has a much smaller load time than a standard DVD, due to the laser having to move a much shorter distances in order to access data.

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

There's no good reason for making the discs that small? What are you smoking? They're not as succeptable to accidental damage,

They're pretty hard to damage, but really easy to lose in comparison. I think most people would much rather accidentally damage a $50 game than accidentally lose it. And heck, if you're not a child, it's pretty hard to accidentally damage or lose an optical disc anyway. Of course, Nintendo seems to pay a lot more attention to children than adults, so I guess that's rather irrelevant.

they're far more portable,

Who cares about that if the system they play on isn't portable?

and who'd really be that surprised if GameBoy 3 played those discs?

I would. Nintendo doesn't tend to show that much insight lately, even if the technology is likely to be able to support that sort of thing in the near future.

Anyway, you missed the only obvious reason Nintendo would have for making discs that size--copy protection. Which I personally think is a pretty weak reason.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[gl4ss]

well i'd be surprised(if gb3 played those). by the time they release anything that would be called 'gb3' it doesn't matter if it plays gc games or not(for them anyways).

the main reason why it may have been a good cut to go for the small discs is that it's not easy to pirate.. it also conviniently chains every developer to using nintendo manufacturing for the discs probably(afaik they're the sole manufacturer of gameboy carts at least), whereas i suspect existing dvd/cd manufacturing lines are easily used for ps2/xbox.

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

An 8mm disc at high rpm has a much smaller load time than a standard DVD, due to the laser having to move a much shorter distances in order to access data.

These days, the difference in access time is a matter of seconds, and is minimized by smart programming. I didn't believe this excuse back when Nintendo used it to justify the usage of ROM chips for the N64, and I don't believe it now.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[NanoGator]

"They're pretty hard to damage, but really easy to lose in comparison. I think most people would much rather accidentally damage a $50 game than accidentally lose it."

I haven't heard of anybody losing GC games because they're so small. I have heard of people ruining standard size CD's/DVDs because they simply dropped them. That surface area is a killer, and many have lost their movies to it. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think your reasoning defeats mine.

"Who cares about that if the system they play on isn't portable?"

Nintendo does. And since they make the rules, they're the only one that matters. Sony's already using a very similar media in their next portable. If Nintendo jumps on that bandwagon, they'll have a much larger library to start wtih. If they go that route, you'll most definitely care.

"I would. Nintendo doesn't tend to show that much insight lately, even if the technology is likely to be able to support that sort of thing in the near future."

Insight? Nintendo's the one leading the innovation parade. I do agree that it's not all that likely they'll do it, but not because of 'lack of inisght', but rather too much of it. If they did it, it'd likely be because Sony forced their hand. Otherwise, I think they'd avoid it. Besides automatically making the machine battery hungry and needlessly expensive, it'd make it too big. It wouldn't be that strong of system in the marketplace for those reasons. They'd have to making something GBA sized with comparable battery life with a "Anyway, you missed the only obvious reason Nintendo would have for making discs that size--copy protection. Which I personally think is a pretty weak reason."

That is one of their big reasons for using that. They've made that clear. Gee whiz, you get a bunch of other benefits out of it too. You seem to be painting the picture that Nintendo doesn't think these things through. If that's the case, why is the system so small, and why does it have a handle to make it easier to carry around? Try doing that with a machine with a 5" disc. Even the Dreamcast, as compact as it is, is akward to move from room to room compared to the GC.

Re:Hmm

[edwdig]

Anyway, you missed the only obvious reason Nintendo would have for making discs that size--copy protection. Which I personally think is a pretty weak reason.

The size doesn't help with copy protection. Small discs are available.

The copy protection is done via a barcode printed on the inside of the disc, just before the data starts. The barcode has to be printed on the disc during manufacturing - it can't be burned on. That can be done with large discs just as easily - it's part of the DVD standard, although I've never heard of it being used anywhere else.

Re:Hmm

[Mr. Piddle]

When the PS2 hit it was a big selling point for it, but the next Nintendo machine doesn't need it at ALL. When the PS2 hit a DVD player was $100+ but now a new system isn't really needing DVD playback due to the cheapness of DVD players.

One thing the PS2 did do was to contribute millions of DVD players to the market. This helped the whole adoption drives cheap players drives adoption chicken-n-egg deal. By helping make DVDs ubiquitous and with that job done, it can be argued that even the PS3 doesn't need DVD-playing capability, except as backwards compatibility for the PS2.

Re:Hmm

[clu76]

As an owner of an xbox and a gamecube, I can honestly say, without a doubt, the cube has better load times in general. There are some publishers that don't take advantage of this and don't optimize their load times for either system.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you actually saying that the PlayStation met or had better load times than the N64?

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the load time decreases the farther away from the center you go. Normal sized DVDs load faster than smaller. Say for example, 1 inch of cd has 1 megabyte. If you turn a cd once, reading the inside of the cd will have loaded about 2 megs, the outside about 15

Re:Hmm

[metroid composite]

there's no good reason for them to make their game discs that small

a) They dramatically reduced load times with those discs. b) It's harder to break/damage those discs. c) It's harder to make ROMs of the discs; in fact the GCN is still uncracked last I heard. d) The small size appeals more to the Japanese market. e) There's future potential for portable systems.

Re:Hmm

[Lemental]

I thought the disc spun backwards.

I may be wrong though. Maybe I better research this instead of posting first.

Nah, much more fun to look stupid publicly than to research it, like half the people who post here.

Re:Hmm

[Zangief]

"Anyway, you missed the only obvious reason Nintendo would have for making discs that size--copy protection. Which I personally think is a pretty weak reason."

It is a strong reason. The Dreamcast got its final blow from piracy. The playstations suffer a lot from that too.

Or maybe you want to copy the GC games? and the disc size/format is annoying you? Why exactly do you think it is a weak reason?

That is one of their big reasons for using that. They've made that clear. Gee whiz, you get a bunch of other benefits out of it too. You seem to be painting the picture that Nintendo doesn't think these things through. If that's the case, why is the system so small, and why does it have a handle to make it easier to carry around? Try doing that with a machine with a 5" disc. Even the Dreamcast, as compact as it is, is akward to move from room to room compared to the GC.

I have carried my GC around to my friends houses, and it is pretty easy to put a GC, four controllers and a lot of games in a bag. Try that with a Xbox! You may need something like this.

Re:Hmm

[mr.capaneus]

As an owner of a PS2 and a Gamecube I can honestly say that the load times for the Gamecube are MUCH fatser than the PS2. That is the primary reason that I will buy a Gamecube game instead of the PS2 version. Some of the load times for PS2 games are absolutely insane (*cough* Jedi Starfighter *cough*).

Re:Hmm

[ivan256]

The disc does not spin backwards. It does read from the outside in though.

Re:Hmm

[Dinny]

I haven't seen any mini DVDs available, but I imagine they will be around eventually.

The discs also read from outside in rather then inside out.

Just the size issue has seemed to completely stop and dupping scene for the Gamecube. Lots of crappy solutions for both the Xbox and the PS2, but no solutions crappy or otherwise for the Cube.

Re:Hmm

[sarcastodon]

let's face it, there's no good reason for them to make their game discs that small...

Actually, there was a good reason to make them that small - it helped stop some of the rampant piracy that is occuring/did occur on the PS1, PS2, XBox, and Dreamcast.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You're telling me that the 30-second load times that some of the early PSX (and PS2) games suffered didn't bother you? It was a huge problem.

Re:Hmm

[NanoGator]

A.) I'm not the one who said that, I think you replied to the wrong guy.

B.) The Dreamcast did not die due to piracy. It'd be a stretch to even call it a contributing factor.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's cracked. It's just a bitch to use.

Look for the Phantasy Star Online shit.

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

Lots of crappy solutions for both the Xbox and the PS2, but no solutions crappy or otherwise for the Cube.

Incorrect. (This is a Google cache link)

It is true, though, that the size issue has slowed down progress in the Gamecube piracy scene. I just don't think that that particular benefit nullifies the costs in data capacity and capital involved. I agree with the Slashdotters who say that Nintendo went with the small discs because its parent company is an optical disc manufacturer. This is the only reasoning that makes any real sense to me.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

It helped that most of the early PSX and PS2 titles sucked.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

No. I'm just saying that going with the much more expensive, much less spacious ROM chips instead of CDs just because of loading times would've been insanely stupid. Hell, even taking into account Nintendo's obsession with copy protection and the fact that Nintendo's parent is a ROM chip maker, it wasn't all that smart, and was one of the major contributing factors to the death of the N64.

With the GC, the differences in media size and price between it and the PS2/XBox are much smaller, but so are the differences in the loading times.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

I haven't heard of anybody losing GC games because they're so small. I have heard of people ruining standard size CD's/DVDs because they simply dropped them.

Do these people have glass or razor blades on the floor or something? Optical discs are made to be quite hard to ruin unless you're doing it deliberately. And even ruining a disc deliberately is difficult unless you have a sharp object handy.

"Who cares about that if the system they play on isn't portable?"

Nintendo does.

Then Nintendo is stupid. But I've suspected that for some time now, at least in the realm of non-portable console making.

Insight? Nintendo's the one leading the innovation parade.

There is such a thing as bad innovation.

You seem to be painting the picture that Nintendo doesn't think these things through. If that's the case, why is the system so small, and why does it have a handle to make it easier to carry around?

So the GC is somewhat smaller and has a goofy-looking handle on it. Big deal. Unless you make a habit of carrying your GC everywhere you go (which most people don't), it doesn't really justify using smaller discs.

BTW, just to strengthen my point, I once managed to fit a PS2 and a DC (both with all the requisite accessories) in a standard-sized duffle bag with about five 50-pack spindles of CDs. If you're any good at packing at all, the smaller size of the GC and its discs doesn't confer much of an advantage. Actually, the cubic shape of the GC might make it harder to pack in some cases.

Rob

Re:Hmm

[scot4875]

Optical discs are made to be quite hard to ruin unless you're doing it deliberately.

Go rent a few DVDs and then let's see how indestructible you think optical discs are. I can't remember the last time I didn't have to skip some part of a movie because of a scratch.

And for games, if a chunk of executable code gets scratched -- goodbye! No skipping that.

--Jeremy

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

Go rent a few DVDs and then let's see how indestructible you think optical discs are.

Do you realize how many mouthbreathers rent movies and games on a regular basis?

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with the Slashdotters who say that Nintendo went with the small discs because its parent company is an optical disc manufacturer. This is the only reasoning that makes any real sense to me.

What? I thought Nintendo Co., Ltd., was its own boss. They partnered with Matsushita to make the GameCube, but Matsushita doesn't own any portion of Nintendo to the best of my knowledge. Did I miss something, or are you and those other Slashdotters smoking crack?

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, I just replied to this post of yours in which you claimed Nintendo's parent company makes optical discs, and now here you are claiming Nintendo's parent company makes ROM chips. Now I don't have to wonder whether you're smoking crack anymore. You may as well show everyone the pipe.

Re:Hmm

[NanoGator]

" Optical discs are made to be quite hard to ruin unless you're doing it deliberately. "

That was true with CDs. Sadly, DVDs with their higher density are far easier to ruin. Coincidenntly, modern game machines are using those discs now. Argue with me if you like, but plenty of people have ruined movies over this. There is nothing inherently differnt about games that prevents this other than they cost $50 to replace.

"Then Nintendo is stupid. But I've suspected that for some time now, at least in the realm of non-portable console making."

Not a very insightful rebuttal.

"There is such a thing as bad innovation."

Not a very complete rebuttal.

"Unless you make a habit of carrying your GC everywhere you go (which most people don't), it doesn't really justify using smaller discs."

Lots of people move their systems around. They move them around their house, they even move them to their friends' place. There's a reasoon why they sell backpacks specifically designed for carrying PS2s, PS1s, XBOXes, Dreamcasts, etc. Don't underestimate this reason.

Yes, it does justify the smaller discs.

"If you're any good at packing at all, the smaller size of the GC and its discs doesn't confer much of an advantage. Actually, the cubic shape of the GC might make it harder to pack in some cases."

Do a little math first, then come back to me and tell me if you really want to press that point.

Re:Hmm

[Anonvmous Coward]

Not only was that a lame-ass argument, but easy to defeat too.

You are trying too hard dude, seriously.

Re:Hmm

[edwdig]

Just the size issue has seemed to completely stop and dupping scene for the Gamecube. Lots of crappy solutions for both the Xbox and the PS2, but no solutions crappy or otherwise for the Cube.

Did you not read what I just said? The issue isn't the size at all. You can't dupe the discs because they need a valid barcode on them, which can only be printed on the disc during manufacturing. You can't duplicate a GameCube disc unless you have a disc manufacturing plant.

It's very easy to prove that the barcode is required. Get a game disc you don't care about (i.e. a $10 ultimate codes disc), and put a small piece of tape over the barcode. The disc won't be recognized by the GameCube. Remove the tape and the disc will work again. Try whatever other methods of covering the barcode that it will take to satisfy you.

If you take the case off the GameCube, you can put a full sized disc in - but it won't recognize it due to the lack of a barcode.

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

Not only was that a lame-ass argument, but easy to defeat too.

OK, so where was it defeated exactly?

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Pluvius]

Great. Now, instead of ad hominem, perhaps you could tell me how the (rather high) probability that this information is wrong defeats the main point of either of those posts? (A reminder: The main point of the first one was that increased copy protection wasn't a good enough reason for the small size of GC discs, while the point of the other one was that it would be stupid for Nintendo to use ROM chips for N64 games mainly because of load times.)

Rob

Re:Hmm

[Anonvmous Coward]

I'm not terribly interested in having that debate. Instead, I'm trying to point out that you're reaching to desperation to win.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I wasn't rebutting your points. I was drawing attention to obviously wrong statements. I threw in the ad hominem because I believed you were intentionally spreading misinformation, if not trolling. You did imply that Nintendo did two very different things so that some ficticious parent company could profit, after all. I thought that was so obviously wrong that you probably couldn't have made an honest mistake, so I called BS.

Re:Hmm

[bugbread]

"When the PS2 hit a DVD player was $100+ "

$100+?

I suppose technically that's right, in the same way that reading a Stephen King novel is read 10 pages+. In Japan, DVD players were running something like $400 for the cheapest models, with an average price of around $600. The PS2 was nothing compared to that.

I understand that DVD players were cheaper in the States at that time, but for the Japanese market, this was absolutely huge. I know several people with no interest in games who bought a PS2 because it was the cheapest DVD player on the market.

Re:Hmm

[bugbread]

"There's no good reason for making the discs that small? What are you smoking? ...they're far more portable..."

Who cares about that if the system they play on isn't portable?

Nintendo does. And since they make the rules, they're the only one that matters.

Ok, I've really tried to wrap my head around this section, but I just don't get it. Being small is an advantage, because it makes discs more portable, but only Nintendo cares that discs are portable...

I can see why this would be beneficial for Nintendo, but when people talk about a good reason for a design decision, they're usually referring to how a design decision benefits the consumer. So...how does portability of media for a non-portable console benefit ME ?

And, just FYI, Nintendo doesn't make the rules about what benefits me. If they did, empty GameCube boxes that cost $1,000 would benefit me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pretty neutral on this whole issue (if there are benefits, I'd be happy to hear about them, if there aren't, I'd be interested to know as well), but this particular exchange just stuck out like a sore thumb.

Re:Hmm

[bugbread]

...How is that easy to defeat? It's true that idiots scratch up DVDs. The implication, of course, is that Gamecube's small discs only really benefit idiots, because they're the only ones who're stupid enough to scratch up a DVD.

I'm neutral on the subject, but I don't see the obvious angle on the argument. In fact, if there was a weak argument, I'm inclined to think it was the initial argument that smaller discs are better because they don't get scratched as easily, as it has been far from established that scratching happens very much in the first place.

Re:Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Some people claim the GC starts from the outside track and moves to the inside.

Re:Hmm

[Zangief]

I think that the PSO Loader is the crappiest solution of all to make piracy in this console generation.

Nintendo has done an excellent job at stopping piracy with their discs. They read outside->inside, which also increases load speeds, and have this code in the microDVDs which are hard to reproduce. Maybe there is even another barrier that hasn't been reached yet.

I agree with the Slashdotters who say that Nintendo went with the small discs because its parent company is an optical disc manufacturer. This is the only reasoning that makes any real sense to me

That theory doesn't explain all the facts.

Nintendo went to great lengths to combat piracy, and that it is the only theory that explains all the facts, that makes the most sense. The cost in data capacity is almost inexistant. God, the miniDVD has a capacity of 1.5 Gigabytes! It is not enough to hold FFX, which has full speech dialogue, but that it is. Square didn't make FFX for the GC simply due to its smaller market share.Square hasn't had problems before to split games in several disks.

IIRC, the only game in the GC that has needed multiple discs is Tales of Symphony. Most games don't need lots of FMV/speech to be great.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[bluGill]

Never been to Japan, have you?

I haven't either, but from those I've talked to who have, apparently women are not adults in Japanese culture. Not kids, but not really adults either, at least not by western standards.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[tweder]

He just doesn't believe in feminism - you know, the belief that women are people too.* :)

*that was a joke, for the humor impaired

This could be very interesting...

[Toxygen]

The article mentions rumours that both the xbox2 and the N5 will IBM cpus and ATI vpus. It could be very interesting to see what happens when Nintendo and Microsoft's opposite business philosophies battle it out for our consumer dollar with such similar hardware.

Re:This could be very interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

Most people who purchase consoles haven't got a clue what's under the hood anyway, so it shouldn't make a difference for 90% or more of their market.

failure

[mrshowtime]

There is an old adage which goes, "when you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one." To try and target EVERY demographic is silly. Pretty much what Hollywood is doing to movies today. Every movie has to be either dumbed down, or edited to be a PG-13 movie to appeal to the masses....

Re:failure

[spir0]

I think you misunderstand. A console SHOULD target every demographic. a game shouldn't.

Nintendo are known for their bias towards "family-oriented" entertainment, and only tend to allow publishers to release such games on their consoles. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are very, very few.

a console like the PS2 DOES support games written for every demographic. and that is one of the reasons why they have the biggest market share.

Your comparison to Hollywood movies is wrong. You should be comparing GAMES to MOVIES, not consoles to movies.

Re:failure

[NanoGator]

"To try and target EVERY demographic is silly."

I used to believe this, in some ways I still do. I mean, when the focus of an audience is narrower, then the appeal is broader. Fair enough. But are you really making a good product if only a handful of people are going to like it?

I don't think Hollywood's failures are a result of targeting broad demographics. I used to. I used to think that the reason a movie was so bland was because they couldn't use the F-word or some other restriction that'd narrow their audience. But I've been thinking about the good movies vs. the bad movies lately, and I'm not seeing problems caused by demographics. What I am seeing are movies that aren't trying hard enough. Compare Star Trek V to Star Trek VI. Exact same demographics, but there were areas of the film where they just didn't try hard enough, and V is forever scorned for it.

So yeah, I dunno. I just can't name that many movies that I thought were great because they targeted narrower demoographics. Maybe more appeal to a small number of people, but that doesn't translate as better. Personally, I'm scared to think of what garbage would come out of a demographic that's too focused. The internet is chock full of examples of this, and boy are they embarrasing. Don't believe me? Go find a fan made Star Trek series called Hidden Frontier. It's fun for fans of Star Trek who also dabble in 3D art, but outside of that.. wow..

Re:failure

[Slashdot Insider]

Sigh. Insightful? Did you think that pulling that tired old cliche out of the bag proves that the two concepts are mutually exclusive?

So what if a game tries to appeal to as many people as possible? The game doesn't automagically suck, as you are implying. Nor are narrowly targetted games the only ones that can be candidates for Game of the Year. If I may be obvious for a moment, it's BAD GAMES that please no one. Nothing to do with Hollywood or audiences at all.

BTW don't get mad at Nintendo, they are not the offenders here.

Re:failure

[Khyl'Dran]

Though I agree with you that its horrible to dumb down movies and edit them down to PG-13, your "old adage" doesnt seem to apply here... Hollywood movies may be dumbed down, but look at the ammount of money they make just BECAUSE they please the masses...Just because they dont please you or me doesnt mean they dont please a hell of a lot of people.

Re:failure

[burns210]

any yet Nintendo has done JUST THAT with every console they have produced... Enjoyable by all ages and both sexes... Xbox and PS2 are geared toward teenage/mid-20 males with cash... Nintendo has always been age nuetral and they are GREAT at it.

Re:failure

[Rallion]

In addition to what the others have said, Nintendo has always tried to please everybody with a console. You know, it's always worked for them, too. And though, as has been stated, the problem with going for universal appeal is only applicable to individual games, Nintendo's best games were those that could be played and loved by anybody. Pretty much every mainstream Mario game comes to mind. There are others of less significance, like Pikmin (and perhaps even Metroid Prime) of the latest generaton.

Re:failure

[novafarm]

To the contrary every Hollywood release is released to a VERY specific demographic with a VERY expected return. Large scale productions are most definately done on a whim to please everybody...nobody would ever fund it as it is has long been common knowledge that you cannot please everybody. Hollywood hucksters are not as stupid as their releases would indicate.

In this day and age marketing is much more sophisticated than even the jaded /. crowd would be willing to admit. Like it or not, you are assimilated and accounted for.

Re:failure

[Anonymous Coward]

Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Conker's Bad Fur Day all spring to mind from my N64 days - those are pretty much the only N64 titles I can name from memory apart from the obvious Zelda and Mario ones.

Nintendo have not been biased towards kiddie entertainment since the early years of the SNES. Welcome to the late twentieth century, you're nearly in the modern era now.

Re:failure

[h0mer]

Nintendo are known for their bias towards "family-oriented" entertainment, and only tend to allow publishers to release such games on their consoles. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are very, very few.

a console like the PS2 DOES support games written for every demographic. and that is one of the reasons why they have the biggest market share

Hahaha. That's why Sony made Acclaim edit BMX XXX for PS2, and Nintendo didn't? Nintendo hasn't had a 'clean' policy since 1993 and Mortal Kombat.

You're confusing Nintendo as a manufacturer and a publisher. They don't develop very mature games in-house. But you don't think they would jump at the chance to have a port of GTA for the GC? I can't believe a bunch of idiots modded you up for that.

Re:failure

[sahala]

don't feed the trolls.

Re:failure

[spir0]

that's why I said very few... nintendo have VERY FEW games which are considered "adult level" games... you mentioned two. another reply to mine mentioned 4 or 5...

in the scheme of things that is piss all.

and no, I don't think nintendo have allowed a port of GTA on the GC.. it's out for the GBA, but not for the GC... I think there's a good reason for that and it probably won't be because the developers won't port it...

of course, I'm only jumping to conclusions here because I think Nintendo is still a "family" business...

talk to some big publishers.. you might be surprised at nintendo's policies...

Re:failure

[h0mer]

Please learn some reading and writing comprehension before posting. Your original post said that Nintendo WOULDN'T LET publishers put out mature games on their systems and that is completely inaccurate.

Re:failure

[spir0]

Please learn some reading and writing comprehension before posting.

my eyes burn at your scathing remarks, and your exceptional knowledge has humbled me.

I'll go sign up for a course now.

Rebranded Xbox2?

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep seeing people speculation that Nintendo is going to rebrand the Xbox2 since they are both using IBM cpus and ATI graphics. Now considering that Nintendo ALREADY uses IBM cpus and ATI graphics and the rumers that Xbox2 wont be backwards compatible and will drop the hard drive wouldn't it be more accurate to say Microsoft may be rebranding the next Nintendo machine for Xbox2? Now I don't think this will happen but I find it funny that Microsoft goes and creates a system that seems like a faster Gamecube (PPC, ATI graphics, No HD) and sudenly people accuse Nintendo of ripping off Microsoft's design. Reminds me of some recent patent cases.

Re:Rebranded Xbox2?

[*weasel]

Microsoft already tried to buy Nintendo once. I doubt the big N would have rebuffed them only to become a glorified distributor 5 years later.

plus, Microsoft has said they plan on having something (of the neXtBox) to show -this- year.

why would it take 12 months for Nintendo to design a 'nintendo' branded case?

I agree with you, it's extremely unlikely.

Though I don't know that anyone (reasonable) is saying Nintendo ripped off MS's design, or vice-versa. Nintendo has been following a very consistant path with their usage of RISC chips, and Microsoft went with IBM simply for better volume pricing.

Microsoft did give bid-preference to Intel after all. But Intel didn't want to do a custom (cheaper) chip for Microsoft at a good price.

The Nvidia/Ati thing was simply nVidia not having enough leverage to get a good deal on the first contract, and not wanting to be associated with perpetuating that situation. Most analysts expected nvidia stock price to drop if they got the xbox2 contract.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[NanoGator]

"Women aren't adults in Japanese culture, or is this just a mis-translation? Or just a Freudian slip on Minagawa's part?"

I think he was just reflecting what is on people's minds. (No, not that women are sex bunnies :P) When somebody says "adults" when referring to the game market, men are typically imagined. Vice City is geared for adults, but who's picturing numerous women playing it?

He wasn't saying "Women have a different place from adults and kids." He was saying "Just in case we're not clear, we mean women as well." I really hope nobody of the female gender took offense to his comment, I really don't think he meant anything bad by it.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[cybergrue]

Maybe he is implying men are children. ^_^
Seriously, maybe is is a mis-translation of a run on sentence. Wasn't there a story yesturday about how women are the fastest growing gaming demographic, and even so, they are still vastly under represented in the gaming comunity, so maybe he added woman to the end of his list as an afterthought and ment nothing sexist about it.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[OneFix at Work]

Not really...

I'm sure he meant exactly what he said...now to clarify just why he said it. Females (Women) are generally considered a seperate market from kids and adults... And for what ever reason, these 2 demographics are what the market has catered to (this probably has to do with the higher ratio of male-to-female developers than anything else)...

Anyhow, in the recent past, companies have started to see that women are a virtually un-tapped demographic.

So, what Nintendo is really saying is that "We are targeting the traditional markets, but we are also targeting the female market"...

Now, this is not to say that women do not play games right now, it's just that they are mostly outnumbered by the men...

Damn Japanese Culture

[superpulpsicle]

Nintendo is what you call a typical japanese company. They will go down kamakazi style in console land before doing what Sega did.... becoming a direct console game publisher for PS2 and xbox. And wasting time and money making their own systems and programming libraries.

Nintendo should just split the company up and have a separate entity dedicated to console games, and leave the other handheld division alone.

By the end of this 64-bit battle, most players would have never tried metroid prime and other really good GC games. It's a real shame.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Anonymous Coward]

"By the end of this 64-bit battle, most players would have never tried metroid prime and other really good GC games. It's a real shame."

Make the GC2 backwards compatable and throw in those games when people pre-order the sequal... Nintendo really knows how much people like classic gaming.. Just look at all the GBA ports and the whole Zelda Bonus disc thing.

I honestly think the GC2 will only have slightly better specs then the GC but be packed with accessories like broadband, card scanner, GBA reader etc... It'll help with the problem of Nintendo dividing there own market every time they release some new accessory.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Stalin]

The 64-bit battle is over dude. The only two contenders were the Atari Jaguar and the Nintendo 64 (note: that is not spelled "Game Cube"). The winner of that era was the 32bit Sony Playstation.

Consoles are currently 128bits of fun.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Anonymous Coward]

Bits are stupid. PS2 has a 2048 bit (or more, I forget) bus in the graphics synth, but we don't go around calling it 2048 bit. Just leave bits out of it, it's not a useful quantity anymore.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Locky]

Funny, there's probably 128 different ways to tell you that you're an idiot.

The Xbox has a 32bit Processor and the Gamecube has a 64bit Processor.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Stalin]

What is this?: http://consoledatabase.retrofaction.com/consoleinf o/nintendogamecube/

How about this?: http://consoledatabase.retrofaction.com/consoleinf o/sonyplaystation2/

We are talking about consoles. While I will agree with the other person who posted a follow up to my reply, consoles are still classified, in bits, by their graphics capability (read GPU). The CPU doesn't really mean anything in console land other than to process input and manage the system overall.

Maybe that makes me an idiot. Or, maybe, that makes me someone who grew up with older consoles.

If you want to look at it this way then the (su)Xbox is a step ahead at 256-bit.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[mr.capaneus]

consoles are still classified, in bits, by their graphics capability (read GPU)
No offense, dude, but if you believe that, you are just getting hooked by the marketing people.

Re:Damn Japanese Culture

[Stalin]

If you reread my last post I am sure that you will notice I agree with you. But, the original post for this thread was talking about consoles in that manner and as such set forth the context for the thread. I am merely speaking in relation to the top of this thread.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[PhyreFox]

Probably an implication that Nintendo is going to start designing games with women as the target demographic.

Insightful?

[metroid composite]

Wait, so Microsoft is doing worse than Nintendo in console sales, and is losing money, while the GCN is doing better in sales and Nintendo is making a good profit off of it, yet it's Nintendo that should bow out of the Console market and make way for Sony and Microsoft? Excuse me?

How is this tired Nintendo=Sega argument remotely insightful? I'm going to repeat the (also redundant) response of:

"Nintendo is making money, and lots of it. Sega was not. Quit Trolling."

Re:Insightful?

[mr.capaneus]

I think what most people are reacting to is the perceived trend in the market. Nintendo has been on a down trend lately, despite remaining profitable, and Microsoft is on an up trend. Of course, MS started from ground zero, so they really had nowhere to go but up, but they have really done a good job with marketing. The Xbox has really grabbed a lot of mindshare as the "cool" console to own for Extreme d00dz despite not selling all that many units and not being anywhere near profitable. I am just really hoping that MS doesn't use it's endless coffers to run Nintendo out of business and then give up on the console market because they are not able to make it profitable.

Re:Insightful?

[scot4875]

I am just really hoping that MS doesn't use it's endless coffers to run Nintendo out of business and then give up on the console market because they are not able to make it profitable.

Agreed. I've always felt that the actions and attitudes from key Microsoft players in charge of the XBox reeked of the actions and attitudes of the key execs at Atari at about the time of videogame crash of '84.

I generally tell people, "If you support the XBox, you may not have *any* console games in the future." Of course, that's a bit extreme, but I prefer to err on the side of caution.

--Jeremy

Re:Insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like I've been saying for a while (since reading another /. poster's ideas on the subject): Supporting Microsoft's Xbox contributes to the death of traditional console gaming culture.

If Sony's next generation of game systems ever leads farther down the "convergence" path than DVD playback (which was easy to do with the PS2 as a side-feature) or any similar feature that is simple to implement on the side, then I may find myself saying the same about those systems as well.

Re:Insightful?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I generally tell people, 'If you support the XBox, you may not have *any* console games in the future.' Of course, that's a bit extreme, but I prefer to err on the side of caution."

Ummm... Please explain?

I know this is an "N" thread so I shouldn't expect anyone to pick you up on this but that is quite a statement.

Have you any good reason for what looks like the most rabid FUD I have seen for a while? (Even for /.)

(Hint - there is a small company called Sony who would probably be interested in selling you console games for a few years yet....)

Yes! Finally someone is targeting women!

[metroid composite]

I've only heard this from friends who've visited Japan, but my understanding is that the gaming market is near 50/50 so it can be done. The female population in North America and Europe represents a HUGE untapped market, and while Sony and Microsoft are both putting all resources into the young adult male, this leaves the door wide open to capture the young adult female (and the kids market is nicely cornered off by Nintendo). Not to say that Nintendo should avoid the adult male market; Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness are good.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[foidulus]

Depends on the situation. It's much more economically viable(and slightly less socially acceptable for a woman to take a "salary man" job) for a woman to work part time and raise children in Japan than it seems to be in the US. After having talked to a lot of Japanese, both male and female though, I can tell you at least from the people I talked to(all less than 22 years old), very few of the women have ever played video games, suprising coming from the video game capital of the world.

What?!?

[banjobear]

I'm still waiting for a reasonable catalog of games for the GC, and now it's going to be obsolete. I can't even find what GC games there are on the shelves of my game shop. If backward compatibility isn't a feature of the new console, I won't be buying it.

Re:What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GC2 will have backwards compatibility. It was confirmed by Nintendo.

Re:What?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like you need to shop at a different game shop.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure. That seems like an awkward way to rationalize this statement.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

Never been to Japan, have you?

I haven't either...

Then why are you spouting nonsense about it?

Japanese culture is not some weird "other" thing that bears no relation to western culture. Japanese women are treated pretty similarly to western women: they're still fighting a historically sexist society, but they sure are fighting it.

Did you not notice the furore in Japan a while back when one of their ministers was sacked? A woman minister? That's right, there are women in the Japanese government. There are women in business.

Your know-it-all friends seem to have told you that women are not adults in Japanese culture.

Your know-it-all friends don't know what they're talking about.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[$rtbl_this]

Vice City is geared for adults, but who's picturing numerous women playing it?

Well, I am now. Want to know what they're wearing?

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[bluGill]

My "no-it=all friends" have been to Japan though.

Don't remember the PS2 do you?

[bluGill]

When the PS2 hit for ~$200, a DVD player was at least $100 more expensive. Most of the early buyers wanted a PS2, but not enough to replace the PS1 that was still working fine. They wanted a DVD player, but couldn't justify $300 or more for one. When the PS2 could play both DVDs and games (including all their PS1 games) for less than a DVD player, it was a no brainer to get it.

DVD ability drove the PS2. the Xbox came just enough latter that DVD players where cheap (and "everyone" had one) so DVD ability didn't drive sales. Time to market drove sales.

Re:Yes! Finally someone is targeting women!

[Planesdragon]

The female population in North America and Europe represents a HUGE untapped market

What are you, single?

My wife uses the game consoles we have almost as much--maybe more--than me.

She isn't as GOOD at the games as I am--but that's probably because she didn't have games as much as I did when we were living at our parents' houses.

Re:Yes! Finally someone is targeting women!

[Anonymous Coward]

when we were living at our parents' houses.

Interesting. You had the same set of parents.

Re:Yes! Finally someone is targeting women!

[scot4875]

Metroid Prime and Eternal Darkness are good.

That's an understatement. Prime and ED are two of the best games to come out for any system, ever.

--Jeremy

Starting from Ground zero?

[metroid composite]

Yes, Microsoft started from Ground zero, but there are a few points to consider. In a lot of ways Nintendo was starting from a very low point as well. Whenever a previous console "bombs" people remain highly skeptical about the next one. Nintendo made a console that's easy to develop for, managed to attrack back a lot of third parties including Squaresoft, and generally pulled out of a nosedive that the N64 seemed to send them into. Who else has ever recovered from a previous faliure? Not Atari; they never caught up again. Not Sega; they were dead in the water after the Saturn, or possibly after the Sega-CD. Nintendo seems to have done the impossible by stabilizing and perhaps even turning around for market share.

Microsoft, on the other hand, looks to be trying the same thing Nintendo was doing after the N64: flip around their policies. The XBox2 has a chipset that looks more like a GameCube with multiprocessing than an XBox with no hard drive. They're going for the early (and thus less powerful in the end) and less expensive console on the market, as opposed to the late, expensive powerhouse. While I do think there's a bigger market for this, they'll alienate XB1 fans who like high-power hard-drive systems, and it may not even have backward compatibility. It has every indication of scrapping an old idea and starting fresh, right down to the early axing of the XBox1. This will call for a shift in marketing policies. Could it work? Yes: they've broken in to one market niche, they can presumably do so to another. Still, they're taking a risk.

In short, Microsoft isn't the only company who broke significant ground last round, and the way they're playing their cards, they'll need to break a lot of ground this round too.

Re:Starting from Ground zero?

[scabb]

Erm.. The N64 was hardly a failure. It may have lost Nintendo a lot of ground in the console war, but it was incredibly more succesful than the Saturn.

Women vs. Adults

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd be curious to know why Nintendo considers women and adults to be mutually exclusive categories.

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not the above AC.

You are a third-party distributor of non-knowledge. You should stop.

In Japan, there is a clear disctinction between children and adults, regardless of gender. It is as obvious there as it is anywhere else. How different would you expect other civilized nations to treat such a basic concept?

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[bugbread]

Not a mis-translation, a mis-interpretation. They're overlapping categories. Some people see video games as being primarily for kids, so they specifically mention adults. Some people see modern games as being gorefests for adults, so they specifically mention children. Some people seem video games as being primarily for men, so they mention women. Nobody sees games as being primarily for women, so they omit the redundant mention of men.

Japanese are much bigger on sentence brevity than English-speakers (which makes sense, since words tend to have more syllables, so speaking as precisely as one would in English would take fricking forever).

BTW, IAAJT (I Am A Japanese Translator)

Re:Mis-translation? Hopefully

[Cow4263]

For women to get offended at that comment, some women would have to be reading it.

*looks around*

No real worries here.

Re:Yes! Finally someone is targeting women!

[Anonymous Coward]

Take your Gaycube tinted glasses off faggot. Eternal Darkness was an above average game offering barely 9 hours of predictable entertainment.

One of the greatest games ever? Excuse me while I Barf....