Slashdot Mirror


Cities Built on Fertile Lands Affect Climate

Devar writes "While cities provide vital habitat for human beings to thrive, it appears U.S. cities have been built on the most fertile soils, lessening contributions of these lands to Earth's food web and human agriculture, according to a study by NASA researchers and others. Though cities account for just 3 percent of continental U.S. land area, the food and fiber that could be grown there rivals current production on all U.S. agricultural lands, which cover 29 percent of the country. Studies like this one may lead to smarter urban-growth strategies in the future."

40 of 99 comments (clear)

  1. Well, duh! by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cities grow up where people first settle, and people first settle where the land is fertile.

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  2. I'll second that.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My little town is build on a diver delta in the Pacific Northwest - it's some of the most fertile soil I've ever seen, and the fact that's it's low in elevation makes for great growing seasons.

    Out 20x10' kitchen garden could produce almost enough colories for two people to live on for a quarter of a year. The potato yeilds are just nuts - and we're not even trying hard.

    1. Re:I'll second that.. by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Funny

      The potato yeilds are just nuts - and we're not even trying hard.

      I'll say! If you plant potatos and reap nuts, you must be doing this really half-assed!

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

  3. There goes the civilization by lambent · · Score: 3, Funny

    But Civilization has tought us that the best tactic is to build your cities on fertile ground, thus assuring a free bonus to food production.

    Maybe NASA should investigate the effects of granary production, and in-city irrigation.

    1. Re:There goes the civilization by jameskojiro · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah but that will cause funds to be diverted from the Apollo Project and they citizens will revolt!

      --
      Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
  4. More study is needed by fatcat1111 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course, this research is of no consequence. Governments are not going to moderate their behavior in response to this knowledge when it's much easier to maintain the status quo and drag out that old line, "More study is needed."

    --
    How Politicians Lie: http://www.factcheck.org/
  5. Blame Kubla Khan by IainHere · · Score: 4, Funny

    This has been known for a long time, in the early 19th century, Coleridge published a poem about Xanadu - see the following snippets:

    In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
    A stately pleasure-dome decree
    Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
    Through caverns measureless to man
    Down to a sunless sea.
    So twice five miles of fertile ground
    With walls and towers were girdled round
    And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
    Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree,
    And here were forests ancient as the hills,
    Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

    So, we see early in the poem, beautiful, fertile ground. Later in the same poem, we read that:

    It was a miracle of rare device, A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice !

    So, this research is not novel, such climate change has been known for almost two centuries :-)

  6. Smarter Urban-Growth? by cornice · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Studies like this one may lead to smarter urban-growth strategies in the future.

    Right. In most places people know about smarter growth strategies. Rarely does growth hinge on anything but the perceived path toward the greatest short term wealth growth for the land owner. I'm guessing that maximization of soil production will be secondary to air quality, traffic, and many other concerns.

    1. Re:Smarter Urban-Growth? by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Near where I live is a fertile valley, which is now mostly paved over with a sea of warehouses. Meanwhile, the hills on either side of the valley are largely undeveloped. Why? Because it's cheaper to build in the valley and ship in food from elsewhere than it is to build in the hills and grow food locally.

      Recently, the last agricultural business in the area -- a dairy -- was shut down because cow poop was getting into the river. Never mind the oil and gasoline run-off from the sea of asphault all around the dairy.

      Oh, and where does our food come from? South America and the irrigated deserts of California. Los Angeles can't get enough drinking water; they're draining the Colorado River dry before it reaches the sea, and still they can't get enough water. Yet they grow rice in the desert!

      And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're idiots.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    2. Re:Smarter Urban-Growth? by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Los Angeles can't get enough drinking water; they're draining the Colorado River dry before it reaches the sea
      Not that it's particularly good drinking water. The amount of salt in it makes it inadvisable for some people (e.g. hypertensives) to drink, and this same salt requires measures to defend against salination when used for irrigation.
      and still they can't get enough water.
      Never mind that the sunlight falling on Los Angeles would probably be sufficient to desalinate all the fresh water they'd really need. I can't think of any reason why toilets can't be flushed with saltwater and lawns and plants watered with reclaimed graywater, can you?
      Yet they grow rice in the desert!
      All paid for by Federal irrigation projects, meaning taxpayers nationwide.

      If California had to pay for all of this itself, much of the state would dry up and blow away overnight. And it ought to.

      And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're idiots.
      Including this native-born American. It is just one more example of how subsidies create destructive incentives.

      FWIW, I think the ~$2/gallon subsidy we give oil via our defense spending is just as insane; if we charged the cost of defending ourselves and the Middle East against oil-financed extremism via fuel taxes, we would not have had an SUV craze. At $3.50 or more per gallon, there would not be enough of a market for Escalades, Hummers, Excursions and monster pickups to create the variety of models which lures people to use them as image statements (other than "I have more money than sense"), and we would be safer and richer (with a much healthier balance of payments) than we are with our hidden oil subsidies.

    3. Re:Smarter Urban-Growth? by Tailhook · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can't think of any reason why toilets can't be flushed with saltwater and lawns and plants watered with reclaimed graywater, can you?

      Perhaps because a parallel plumbing and reclamation system would be necessary to keep the saltwater and freshwater separate? Is that really contributing a net gain or just shifting the damage? Another possible reason is that most fresh water is consumed in agriculture, not toilets, by a margin of about 15 to 1.

      And we wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're idiots.

      No, we don't, because we're increasingly immune to BAF bullshit and discount it automatically. The rest of the world is doing it's level best to emulate us in every conceivable manner and has been for the past century, regardless of what the worlds activists happen to be saying. Why are they flattering idiots?

      Including this native-born American. It is just one more example of how subsidies create destructive incentives.

      Would that include subsidies to car manufacturers to develop and market low-emission vehicles and power trains that run on renewables? It could be you're thinking of grant funded research that produces results similar as those we see here. Perhaps you are referring to subsidizing alternative energy sources for electricity, including offsetting operating costs. Or maybe you mean ITER or NIF... Is it really subsidies in general or just the subsidies you, in all your righteous genius, don't happen to think are proper, as you sit there well-fed in your heated dwelling writing messages in your spare time for distribution on a network initially developed using federal defense subsidies?

      if we charged the cost of defending ourselves and the Middle East against oil-financed extremism via fuel taxes, we would not have had an SUV craze. At $3.50 or more per gallon...

      You want to pay for defending ourselves against oil financed extremism by charging ~$2 a gallon more in taxes to end the SUV craze. I have a better idea; let's stop causing the market to buy vehicles based on truck chassis by allowing manufactures to build sufficiently sized vehicles based on passenger car chassis. I believe a small relaxation of CAFE and EPA standards on passenger cars would allow vehicle fleets to meet the expectations of the American market, but that the fleet average regulations prevent building appealing cars. Split the difference between 27.5mpg (cars) and 20.5mpg ("light" trucks) and we can start making cars again. The entire SUV episode the fault of these regulations because the market has been forced to choose between a car that's a couple hundred pounds too small/light (say, the difference between 3.4k and 4k lbs) and a truck that's a couple thousand pounds too heavy.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    4. Re:Smarter Urban-Growth? by cubicledrone · · Score: 2, Funny

      Haven't been to California much, eh?

      Here you need about 80,000 pages of committee reviewed studies to mow the lawn.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
  7. Who cares ? by andy666 · · Score: 2, Funny

    After we exterminate the native Martion population we will have plenty room to grow all of the steakfruit we can eat.

  8. This is the entire concept behind Urban Harvest by MarkusH · · Score: 3, Informative

    Their Mission Statement:

    We help build communities from the ground up by promoting sustainable urban land and horticultural practices to grow food and reduce hunger. We carry out our mission by working with volunteers and community groups building community gardens and orchards.

    Their website.

  9. Isn't this common sense? by Peapod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One would think that this would be something that it doesn't really necessitate a study to prove. Obviously cities are going to be built on fertile ground because in order for a city to grow, it must have food. It hasn't really been until this century until people could move places where there was no abundant source of food, or especially water.

    Also, no one really ever sets out to build a big city, they just grown from smaller cities that grew from smaller settlements.

    1. Re:Isn't this common sense? by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One always needs a study to prove the "obvious." To a lot people, it's obvious that violent movies and videogames induce violent behavior in children, or that seeing an exposed breast on television is traumatic.

      "Common sense" is the name we give to our personal prejudices.

  10. To quote Sam Kinison... by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "We have deserts, we just don't live there. You wanna eat? MOVE TO WHERE THE FOOD IS!"

    So, in light of this study, what should we do? Tear down existing cities and rebuild them where things don't grow? What about that minor issue of water supply?

    Never mind that every year, we manage to increase our crop yeilds on the same amount of land because of superior agricultural technology and methods.

    Sorry, but I see another scaremongering study to push one interest groups agenda here. Anti-growth, more than likely. And the notion that because our cities sit on fertile land we're contributing to world hunger when we outproduce just about everybody, well, that's just horseshit. We export quite a bid of food already. So what, are we still not doing our part? That's the tone I get from the article.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    1. Re:To quote Sam Kinison... by DamnRogue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Furthermore, the world as a whole alrady produces more than enough food for everyone to eat well. The real issue is food transportation and storage. It doesn't matter if you can grow billions upon billion tons of wheat in the Ukraine if you can't get it to the hungry people in Africa. There are a whole host of blockages in the way: physical difficulties of getting perishable goods to remote locations, the inability of people in said locations to pay market price, political trade limitations, regional warlords, etc, etc.

  11. Re:That's it!! by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's called Greenland so the Europeans would go there, instead of Iceland. Those Icelanders are pretty damn smart.

    By the way, this place where I live is called "poison water" -- yeah, that's it, "poison water."

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  12. Paulo Soleri by AtariAmarok · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Check into Paul Soleri. He proposed high-density small-footprint city-buildings called "arcologies". His books even show how little room a city like L.A. would take if it were built as an arcology.

    It does not seem feasible at this time: the one in the link above is very small and is being built at a snail's pace. Arcologies of the scale Soleri has envisioned have only appeared in the fiction Larry Niven has done in collaboration with other authors. ("Oath of Fealty" and the Dream Park novels)

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Paulo Soleri by Dachannien · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...And in the movie Blade Runner. And in the game SimCity 2000. And in the Shadowrun RPG.

      I really do wish that arcologies would catch on. The environmental impact of having the day commutes of tens of thousands of people reduced to a ride in an electric-powered mass transit shuttle - which people would have to use because there would be no room for cars inside the building - would be tremendous, especially when multiplied by a few hundred arcologies.

      The only thing to consider is whether the fertile lands mentioned in the above article are reclaimable, or whether enough environmental damage has been done to them to make them no longer very fertile.

  13. Disappearing Farms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I know that here in NYC we used to have loads Long Island potatoes in the stores. Now we don't have any. I am not talking about 50 years ago, I am talking about 15 or 20.

    Maybe the potatoes in in the store are from Long Island just not labeled as such. Maybe they have been out competed because of cheap transportation costs but mostly I think it is because as you drive out on I-495 (The Long Island Expressway) you see miles and miles of suburbs most of which used to be farms.

    The lack of urban planning in America has been a major irritation to me since I moved temporarily outside of New York City. I lived in the Tidewater area of Virginia for a few years and in Stutgart Germany for a half a year.

    Stutgart was laid out as little clumps of Urban areas mixed into farm, woodlots and vinyards. There were vinyards in the middle of the city. Plus you could walk or bike ride for miles on trails from one part of town to the other and there were trains everywhere.

    New York City is very dense. The whole world should not be like that, but it definitely should not be like the miles and miles, 50+ miles of suburb that surround it. The worst is places like Raleigh Triangle that has no city, just urban sprawl alon highways. I haven't been to California, but I get the impression that large sections of it are like that also.

  14. RoofTop Gardens by theslashdude · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Cities and food production don't have to be mutually exclusive. We can live or work and grow food in the same place with RoofTop Gardens.

  15. Who cares... by Dr.+Bent · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The last time I checked, the US government still pays people NOT to grow food because we have more than we need. When farm subsidies disappear, then I'll start worrying about urban sprawl affecting crop production.

    The problem of world hunger cannot simply be solved by producing more food. You have to get that food to whoever needs it, before it spoils, and in a way that is cost effective. That's a much more difficult problem than just growing more corn.

    1. Re:Who cares... by 2marcus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The US government's agricultural subsidies actually significantly distort the entire market. If we got rid of them, we might actually see fertile land become more valuable. We don't let other countries dump steel on us, why should we dump agricultural goods on them? Of course, I would also argue that this problem is actually much more severe in other countries. To use anecdotal evidence, Egypt has a very narrow fertile corridor (called the land next to the Nile). But it is busy building on all of its arable lands because people want to live next to where everyone else lives. If they had just a little bit of urban planning, they could shift new settlements out a couple miles into the desert (same climate, almost same location, but very different soil, and you have to pipe some water a little further), and thereby save their domestic agriculture market. But as long as the US dumps food on them, they have little incentive to have domestic farms.

  16. Duh, yourself by fm6 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I don't know whether to say "Kneejerk response" or "RTFA."

    Let's do the second thing first. The point of the article is not that people build on fertile land. The point is that in doing so, they affect the environment and the food supply.

    Second, it's not as simple as saying, "that's where people want to live, too bad." Silicon Valley is built on the best farmland in California, possibly in North America. The early electronic factories didn't come here for easy access to food -- they came here to be near Stanford and the Moffett Naval Air Station. Later high-tech companies came here to be near existing high-tech companies, and to tap the labor pool. There were urban centers they could have built in, but farmland was cheaper.

    The huge growth that followed was inevitable, and even desireable. But it could have been a lot better managed. Swathes of orchards could have been set aside, which would have made the Valley a nicer place to live, helped recharge the water table (lots of droughts here) and fought smog (trees suck up a lot of air polution). Instead of building willy-nilly, housing could have been concentrated in logical locations connected by heavy-duty transit corridors, including mass transit (the traffic jams are horrendous, and even if there were money for more freeways, there's no place to put them).

    Back in the 60s and 70s, when things started to ramp up, the County government tried to do something like the above. But county-wide planning would have eliminated the huge profits of real-estate developers. So they persuaded various little towns, some of them little more than railroad stops, to annex huge patches of land, exempting them from county planning.

    There's a street that runs on a rise at the side end of the valley, called Blossom Hill Road. The name comes from the fact that driving their in the spring brought you face to face with a shocking amount of floral color. Now all you see is urban sprawl. I never go there.

    1. Re:Duh, yourself by Phaid · · Score: 4, Funny

      Second, it's not as simple as saying, "that's where people want to live, too bad." Silicon Valley is built on the best farmland in California, possibly in North America. The early electronic factories didn't come here for easy access to food -- they came here to be near Stanford and the Moffett Naval Air Station.

      Yes, I remember tales of the pioneers of the 1800s hitching up the Conestoga and braving the crossing of the great plains in their brave quest to live near Stanford and Moffett Field, visions of higher learning and F-14s dancing in their heads as they struggled to ford streams with their teams of oxen...

    2. Re:Duh, yourself by stevew · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure I'm willing to accept this claim at face value because it's a bit contrary to some simple facts. What I was taught back in elementary school (CA in the 60's) was that the California central valley was the best farm land in the country because it is essentially a vast flood plain like the Nile. (Then we have the entire Mississippi flood plain to talk about as well.)

      Sacramento is not THAT big when compared to the rest of the valley, and the population density in the valley is quite low.

      The vast majority of California's population is actually in desert areas (LA and San Diego) that can only exist there because of imported water. This isn't prime agricultural land without the water which "man" would have to bring there anyway -

      So I just don't believe the conclusions being reached here concerning the magnitude of the loss.

      --
      Have you compiled your kernel today??
  17. Urban growth not the problem by b-baggins · · Score: 2, Interesting

    People in the world aren't hungry because evil Americans build cities on fertile land. People in the world are hungry because they live under the thumb of brutal dictators. You want to feed the world? Promote freedom and capitalism around the world.

    --
    You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    1. Re:Urban growth not the problem by 2marcus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, counterintuitively, some people are hungry because the US produces _too much_ food, at too low a price. Thereby outcompeting farmers in developing nations, thereby driving them out of business.

      Oh - and in the process of heavily subsidizing agriculture, we effectively make fertile land worth less, which means it is easier for other activities to outcompete farming for the land. This is true both in the US and in developing countries.

      (btw, I don't disagree with the statement that the spread of freedom and capitalism are also likely to help reduce hunger, as long as they are implemented along with the appropriate governmental/societal institutions. Read Globalization and Its Discontents to see how not to spread capitalism...)

      http://www.bread.org/media/articles/2003/presbyt er ian_apr_15_hunger_report.html
      http://www.overpopu lation.com/articles/2001/000049 .html

  18. You call it urban planning, I call it economics. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The essential problem on Long Island is that farmers cant afford to grow there, or the incentives for them to sell their farms is just too great. Say you have a 20-30 acre farm in the middle of LI. Your taxes are going to be extremely high, and you are growing potatoes or corn or whatever on it, most likely just eeking out a living. Bob the builder comes along and says he will give you $100,000/acre for your farm. Are YOU going to say no? 2 mil at 5% interest still nets you 100k/ year.

    Urban planning policies in this instance would have to give the farmer pretty hefty incentives to stay a farmer. My area (36 miles from NYC near the nassau/suffolk border) had a few farms around it and a bit of undeveloped land when we moved here about 8 years ago. Now there are houses everywhere, with one farm left standing. The change is remarkable. Property values have skyrocketed, but the cozy charm the area once had is quickly diminishing, and traffic has increased noticeably. In 20-30 years im fairly certain that you wont be able to live w/in commuting distance of manhattan for less than a million dollars.

  19. Re:Duh, back at you by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Screw the 60s and 70s, the entire point goes back 100-200 years when the US was settled. RTFA yourself.

    "Urbanization follows agriculture -- it's a natural and important human process," said Imhoff.Throughout history, highly productive agricultural land brought food, wealth and trade to an area, all of which fostered settlements.

    This has little to do with Silicon Valley. In fact, the entire concept is a no-brainer to any civilization that ever settled anywhere on the planet.

    In fact, I wonder why NASA wasted money on this study in the first place.

    --
    You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  20. Thanks for clarification by AtariAmarok · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Thanks for listing some additional sources. I did not mean that Arcologies appeared only in Niven.

    One major weakness with arcologies is vulerability to terror/war or such catastrophe.

    In the 1950s, Clifford D. Simak wrote his "City" stories after being inspired by the vulnerability of cities to nuclear attack. Turn the city into an arcology, and the problem (such as it is) increases.

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:Thanks for clarification by dunedan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you are forgetting a major problem with arcologies. People don't want to live in them. If they did there would be a big expensive one in Aspen Colorado where all the rich people go on vacation.

      I agree with you on all technical, environmental, and economical points but you will have a very hard time convincing people to give up their yards and cars and shrubbery and sunlight all day long to live in what they will inevitably percieve as a large box

  21. Subsidy accounting by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Whether or not California is truly a donor state depends where the cost of running Glen Canyon Dam and Hoover Dam is put. If they are charged to Arizona or Nevada (next to the dams) rather than the places the water goes, you will not get an accurate picture of how the subsidies flow.

    (Not saying that they are, I have no expertise in this matter; I'm just saying that this is one way in which the truth could be obscured.)

    But complaining about Federal monies spent in California rings hollow, especially given the enormous budget deficit facing California
    To the extent that those deficits come from a bunch of amateurs (politicians) playing the energy markets with the taxpayer's money under rules written and approved by the legislature, those problems are entirely home-grown and do not deserve a bailout. The huge spending run-up during the dot-bomb era does not justify a bailout either.
  22. Was the land fertile before the city was there? by nunya_biznez · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Here's an interesting thought... Was the land fertile prior to settlement? Or has it become more fertile since the development and habitation.

    If you think about all the refuse and biological waste that winds up on the ground every day, wouldn't this contribute to the fertility?

    I don't think that even if we could convince all the people to move to a less fertile area that the ground would produce all that much. Because with all that humans drop, we also pollute. So even if we could farm it, I seriously doubt that it could produce as much as they are saying it would.

  23. Putting on my ObviousMan cape and shorts by Spamalamadingdong · · Score: 2, Informative
    ... like where the first 13 colonies were set up and they really didn't know how to grow their own food until the Native Americans taught them how to.
    Yeah, like the natives had wheat, and rye, and oats, and apple trees, and all those other crops unknown to Westerners. <insert DUH with red circle and bar sinister here>

    Actually it was the reverse. With minor exceptions western agriculture out-produced the native American crops and techniques by large margins (until western crop-breeding practices produced things like modern maize)... and if you actually care about the facts, here is a good introduction which explains why this was, among many other important factors.

  24. Well, MY city... by dustinbarbour · · Score: 2, Funny

    ..just so happens to be build in the middle of the freakin' desert! Not exactly fertile.. So, though this may hold true for a lot of cities, there are many exceptions.

  25. Idiots by KewlPC · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While we can always hope for smarter urban growth strategies, their widespread adoption isn't likely, at least not in the near term.

    Every year, all throughout the Southeastern United States, there are people who live in a town built on the Mississippi River flood plain who, when the river floods (as it does every year), instead of moving to a better place, decide to try to control the river's flooding by building levies. The levies, of course, are preventing the Mississippi from carrying as much silt as it used to, which is causing erosion. Never mind that the land is more useful for irrigation farming.

    There are people in the midwest who, despite living on land so unbelievably flat that you can't see a single hill or Mountain, and despite the area being known as "Tornado Alley", act surprised and heartbroken when their towns are ripped apart by tornadoes year after year.

    All throughout American history, people just built their towns on the first, most immediately convenient place they came across, with little or no regard as to whether or not it was actually a good place for a town. A great many years later, despite the technology for advanced climatological and ecological studies being available (that would tell these cities' current inhabitants that their town is situated in the worst possible place), people continue to live in these places. After each disaster, people keep coming back.

    Idiots.

  26. Re:Duh, back at you by misterpies · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Two comments:

    Firstly, there are large swathes of the US where fertile land is neither urbanised nor farmed, but simply left to grow back into forest. I'm thinking of New England. Outside the main cities (and often surprisingly close to them) there are acres and acres of new-growth forest that used to be farmland. What happened was local farmers were priced out of business by big midwestern producers, and the land was just left fallow. (if you've ever been to Walden Pond -- where Thoreau went off to retreat from the world -- you'll notice it's surrounded by dense forest. But when Thoreau lived there it was all farmland.)

    Secondly, it may be a no-brainer that cities tend to grow around fertile land, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea. (Indeed it's the sort of idea only someone with no brain would consider good.) Especially since once that fertile land is concreted over, it's gone for good.

    --
    The author of this post asserts his moral rights.