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Linux in Munich Followup

Rican writes "Wired has a story that details some of the difficulties that Project LiMux seems to be experiencing in Munich. Including financial and technical issues. On the positive side it looks like despite these setbacks they are continuing with the project and have a positive attitude about its completion. Let's keep our fingers crossed and do what we can to support this monumental effort that will benefit the whole Open Source Community."

93 of 271 comments (clear)

  1. If there is one placeq by homeobocks · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If there is one place that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe and Asia. Wait: I guess that isn't one place! :)

    --
    MOUNT TAPE U1439 ON B3, NO RING
    1. Re:If there is one placeq by azzy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Er.. and in Soviet Russia.. Russia walks across you? Hmm.. scratch that, that sounded too political.

    2. Re:If there is one placeq by Yokaze · · Score: 3, Informative
      From the BBC "Brazil falls in love with Linux"

      Free software is popular in China, India, even parts of Africa.

      Nobody can say for sure, but in Latin America, some estimates suggest open source systems will soon be installed on up to a third of all computers.

      [...]

      Whatever the underlying reason, Linux is spreading fast in Brazil, although it is impossible to estimate how many organisations have adopted it so far.

      "This is happening from the bottom up, and not from the top down, as you might find in big companies," says Mr Zappi.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    3. Re:If there is one placeq by snake_dad · · Score: 4, Funny
      If there is one place that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe. And Asia. If there are two places that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe and Asia. And Africa. If there are three places that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe, Asia and Africa. And South America. If there are FOUR... ...no... *Amongst* the countries...no... *amongst* the countries are countries such as... I'll come in again.

      (with apologies to Monty Python)

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    4. Re:If there is one placeq by Hektor_Troy · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nobody expects the Spanish Intermission!

      --
      We do not live in the 21st century. We live in the 20 second century.
  2. The problems by lakeland · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Interesting that all the problems are interoperability with proprietary software. There haven't been any problems with the people using linux.

    1. Re:The problems by passthecrackpipe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, some of the problems are different "The migration plan is more complex than simply replacing Windows with Linux, according to an outline provided by the Munich information department. Studies on open-source security, desktop ergonomics and the software components' stability and compatibility with other applications will be included in the process." ... and that is costing more money then expected, and thus raises questions about financial viability. What pisses me off is that these kind of studies are hardly ever conducted when you do a Windows to Windows migration, although the issues, impacts and risks are just as high.

      --
      People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.
    2. Re:The problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Interesting that all the problems are interoperability with proprietary software. There haven't been any problems with the people using linux."

      Even more interesting is how those many of those interoperability problems were designed into the proprietary software to prevent just such a migration, so that one day their architects could say "look at all the problems that other software is causing!"

    3. Re:The problems by NumbThumb · · Score: 3, Informative

      Maybe that's because non of the city staff is using it yet? Remember, thei're still in the process of porting the applications that they need. Moving the users to a linux desktop will only be the last step.

      --
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    4. Re:The problems by tanguyr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Linux will never replace windows on the desktop, cause there is no real incentive other than made-up news, stories.

      like all those made-up news stories about a virus that spreads through a mail reader and causes millions of dollars (if not more) of lost productivity?

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      #!/usr/bin/english
    5. Re:The problems by AstroDrabb · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The difference is that Microsoft has already spent the money to test and perfect the migration path.
      I almost soiled my pants reading that. There is noting "perfected" coming from MS. I work at a fortune 500 with 140,000+ employess. MS came in and told all the PHB's that they just HAD to upgrade our Exchange server to Exchange 2003 running on MS Windows 2003. What a nightmare. The server is constantly going down, and our corporate email is not dependable. These problems cannot be blamed on our IT staff since several of MS's people have been here a few WEEKS trying to get it running smoothly.
      I predict a failed migration, millions of euros in lost money and productivity
      Now do you really think IBM will let that happen? Of course not. With Novell in the picture for SuSE, they will be there too to make sure that it gets finished. There is no such thing as a large scale migration of anything without problems. Migrating with MS's own products to newer versions can be a nightmare. We have had tons of issues doing large upgrades in addition to the one I pointed out above.
      Bullshit, Stacey. These issues should be resolved BEFORE the migration, especially if its a large scale problem.
      Yeah, you sound like you have done a lot of large scale migrations. There are only so many senarios you can plan for in advance. After that you just need a little luck and good developers/admins working for you.
      Oh well, must suck to be a worker for the City of Munic.
      Why would it suck? I think it would be a great challenge and when they DO finish, it will be a great example that the city of Munich can use to their advantage. Maybe put some of their top guys out for consulting for a little while? IBM is the largest IT company in the world. There name is on this and they won't let it just get ran into the mud. Also, IBM has the most talented Global Services division you can find on the planet. There is still more then a year to go. In about 1 year, all the positive press will come out and MS will be scrambling to play it down and MS weeines will be making excuses.
      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
    6. Re:The problems by mabhatter654 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Ahh the joys of newbies! Windows to Windows is just as bad...often worse! Like when I bought a new shiny dell with new shiny office...and had to replace the whole email system because Outlook XP dropped an older mailbox format!! or when the boss buys himself a new shiny dell...and the critical Win95 drivers have no equivelant! Or when very basic Office XP files don't share properly with Office 97 when you change a single character meaning 8 other people have to upgrade too!

      Linux on the desktop is ready...the only thing holding it back is the inertia of windows users. Linux is at least as good technically on the desktop as Win 98/2000 in many areas much better [just the OS/DE mind you] Sure apps are missing, but they will come. The biggest problem are those pesky "must have" windows drivers or software. If you can convert an office to 100% OO.org [or another] you'd be just fine! My biggest problem getting a tryout of OO.org [in prep for Linux!] was those pesky USERS who simply refused to learn something new...and refused to try! I wouldn't deny growing pains...but if office workers were factory workers they'd all be out of work...for holding up progress!!!

    7. Re:The problems by AstroDrabb · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I question that last part. A key point in any project is being able to roll back
      Of course there were rollbacks. There are several MS Exchange servers running. Us programmers get to be the ones using the "latest and greatest" from MS. MS has had their people at our company for a while now and are still scratching their heads. MS came in after the problems started, did a complete reintstall and it still is not right. The system randomly locks users out and all kinds of crap. We have a custom COM object that talks to the Exchange server to get calendar/email for users to display on our corporate portal. Exchange 2003 will lock the user that the COM object runs as out ever 2 hours our so. We have to have 2 compiled version of the COM object with different a username/password and swap that object on the server every two hours just to get it to work. This code has been running perfectly under Exchange 2k for some time now. The MS guys have audited the code of the COM object and found no problems it and they are still scrathing their head on what is wrong with their latest and greatest.
      They didnt force anybody to upgrade
      Well, MS comes in and says if you upgrade now, you will save money, if you wait 2 years, it will be almost twice as much. That is pretty much forcing the upgrade.
      Thats why anywhere with real IT pros wont convert to Linux
      Well, Oracle is/has converted all of its internal business to run on Linux. A lot of Wall Street companies are/have converted to Linux. Amazon.com and plenty of others. Linux has 25% of the server market _right now_ with many analyst predicting 45% within 3 years. Though I guess none of these companies have _anyone_ that knows what they are doing. Maybe they should all hire you since you are the only It person in the world that knows how to run things?
      I'll bet if you interview anybody who actaully does any work there in one year, they will have tons of complaints.
      Umm, you can interview users at just about _any_ company NOW and here tons of complaints about MS software, so what is your point?
      But you wont see those interviews, you will only see IBM saying "Mission Accomplished!". Makes me think of GWB standing in a flightsuit on the deck of an aircraft carrier. We got it done! Truth be damned!
      Because we all know just how "honest" the MS PR machine is right?
      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
    8. Re:The problems by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Three points:

      1. Your mostly right. A well planned migration can be done, and is a thing of beauty when it happens.

      2. In most of the migrations I've done, there is a point of no return. That is to say, rolling back is more work, and more of a problem then finishing the problem. Instantly migrating back can be a huge issue (I've dealt with this on schema's in a database).

      3. IMHO, if you interview enough rank and file employee at any company of nearly any size, they will complain about the computers reguardless of the OS, the machine, the software involved. I don't care if it's Linux, OS X, Mac Classic, Amiga, MS Windows 3.1/NT3.X/4.0/2K/XP/CE/ME, OS2, Solaris, AIX, HPUX, IRIX, or raw LPAR's on a mainframe. So talking about "force feeding Linux" and having complaints afterwards isn't a useful datapoint.

      In my experience, most peoples objections to Linux are that it's not Windows. That in a lot of ways isn't a complaint I worry about. Most of the people who work at my company, need a web browser to run the application they use all day every day. If it's Mozilla, IE or Opera it really doesn't make any difference at all. All they really get mad about is not being able to go to IE required sites to play games. I double dog dare those people to complain to their boss to make me fix it.

      Most people I work with have problems with Windows. If you interviewed them, they'd complain about all sorts of stuff. It known to hang, and/or crash. In my experience, it gives you very little to backtrack to figure out what is causing the problems. (It might be that I don't have the right tools). When I have problems under Linux I generally get a pretty good error message, along with a stack trace and symbols to use to track things down.

      Microsoft has wonderful integration between multiple applications. It has incredible abilities to export objects from one app, and past them into another. In my experience, that's also a wonderful way to crash Word/Excel. It's a wonderful way to leak memory. It's a great way to slow those applications to a crawl.

      Linux has plenty of rough edges, but in a stand alone environment (where it doesn't have to mix with Win32 formatted documents), and you have limited functionality required (read a limited job description) it can stand up to Windows any day of the week. Can you download a GUI to do family tree stuff, probably not. Can you download a tool deal with the newest goofy scanner that some no name brand has put out, probably not. Can you download some of the goofy little programs that people develop only for Win32? Normally no, you can't.

      However, in my experience, if I want a printed document I can do that. If I want a spreadsheet, I can do that. If I want a decent browser, I have one. If I want to read email. There is a plethora of apps to choose from. If I want to customize my desktop I can. If I want music, I can do that. If I want instant messaging, I can do that. If I want VoIP, I can do that. If I want development tools, I have those. If I want a photo manipulation program, there are a couple. If I want to watch movies, I can. If I need various compression/archival/backup programs, I can. If I want to write CD/DVD's I can.

      Can you make it run as the primary desktop for employees at a work environment. Sure can, been doing it for 4 years personally. There are some people I can't to do that, but that is primarily because MS propriatary formats are a defacto standard. You just can't deal with people without that. It's annoying, and it's fundamentally bad for the economy (it's limiting competition, and an artificial constraint on increasing effeciency, all of which are bad for the economy). If people exchanged documents in a more open format, it'd be a heck of a lot easier to migrate to a non-windows environment.

      Kirby

    9. Re:The problems by ComputerSlicer23 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hmmm, the stuff about a family tree program, is an upside for Windows, especially for a home user. There is lots of stuff that Windows has software for that Linux doesn't. Windows has lots of advantages there.

      I have yet to see W2K crash, but I've never run it either. I run plenty of 98 crash and burn, and no clues as to what went wrong. I know plenty of people who run W2K and XP and speak of it's glories. About the only serious downside I've ever heard people talk about the W2K and XP is that there are some things it's really tempermental about. Specifically some Dell and Compaq servers that there is a specific order drivers must be installed. If you don't, there will be nothing glaringly wrong, but the machine will lock up periodically. I've run into a couple of cases of laptops that Anti-virus software can't be installed if SP1 is installed on W2K. You have to uninstall all of the patches that require SP1, and SP1, then install the A/V software, then install SP1, then go on your merry way. Hope like hell you never have to install the A/V software again.

      The reason microsoft products are bad for the economy, is they are a tax. They are essentially a tax on all computers in most cases. When I hear that Office made Microsoft $3.5Billion dollars a quarter, what I hear, is that $3.5B that could have been passed on to the consumer as savings, or could have been saved by the company as a profit for small businesses. It acts a lot like a fee you'd have to pay the mafia to get access to the harbors in NY. It's just a shakedown for money. It's just word processing software. There are a zillon other things that would work just perfect for it, but everybody pays the money to microsoft because it's safer then getting shaken down if you are not in compliance during a license audit.

      Word processing software should be a commodity. It's just not hard, there are probably a dozen packages that would satisfy 95% of the uses of Word. If Microsoft exported to anything that was well documented, and editable, business's around the world would save billions of dollars every year. You're paying a monopoly rent, that's all there is to it.

      I know we could have saved $650 * 100 copies on Office. $~65K. That's a significant chunk of change. We'd love to have saved that over the 3 year period when we got the license. I know I'd have taken home the $1800.00 a month that would have saved us. The irony, is that we only have 45 employees.

      Just like the documented fact that companies have to pay Microsoft for the same OS twice. Once for the OEM copy, and once for the site license. It's a screw job. Plain and simple.

      And your point is? I dont see why people complain about MS using non-open formats. Why should they? The only benefit is for people who dont want to use MSOffice. There seems to be little economic incentive to help those people.

      I don't see why people complain about the thugs who mug people. Why should the thugs stop, it's only in the interest of the people who don't like to get mugged.

      I'm not arguing that Microsoft should stop if nobody forces them too. Yes, that would be bad for Microsoft. My point is that it is bad for everyone else. Sorta like a mugging. Good for thugs, bad for everyday people.

      Microsoft has people over a barrel and they know it. Microsoft can play hardball all they want. That's fine. However, don't play innocent about how badly that hurts the businesses that have to purchase from Microsoft.

      I suppose you think we should go back to having MaBell run the phone company. Where the only phones you can hook up are the overpriced phones that only MaBell can sell. I'll bet you really wish that Standand Oil still was a monopoly and could screw the economy by artificially raising the prices of Oil. What precisely is your opinion on OPEC? You think they are just a wonderful group too?

      I supposed you'd think it was wonderful if Ford sold propriatary parts that nobody els

    10. Re:The problems by t0ny · · Score: 2, Informative
      Um, thats because you should be exporting from the 5.5 info store to pst's, then importing them to the new format.

      Now, you can be a fool and trust other people telling you it will work ok, or you can do it the long, boring, but reliable way.

      Me, I work in IT, which means the Information is more important than anything. Being a professional, I do the most reliable thing each time. Other people should take the same mindset.

      Also, I like the asshole moderators around here. A person cant even have an intelligent discussion without getting modded down as a troll or whatever. Fucking idiots

      --

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  3. No news really... by perly-king-69 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Right now we are proceeding as planned, and we have no hints or signals that the city counsel is regretting or reconsidering their decision to move to Linux,"

    Sounds like the normal hitches you'd expect when doing any large-scale migration. Something more detailed would have been nice rather than generalities about 'software compatibility' and 'security'.

    --

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  4. dont make a big story out of it... by tuggy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ..i dont think there is the need to start making up big stories out of this. Of course this kind of migration takes a lot of time, specially for the training.

    I really hope that everything proceeds as planned.. a project like this is important for the public opinion of Free Software and Linux...

    1. Re:dont make a big story out of it... by mark99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It already is a big story. Face it, Linux on the Desktop for non-techies is "bleeding edge".

      IBM and SuSe are both involved though, so I am sure everything will go okay in the end :)

  5. migration by W32.Klez.A · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think part of the problem with migration is that in many instances many people who use linux and love did it because they were disenchanted with proprietary OSes for personal reasons, and these guys are trying to migrate for a multitude of reasons, including monetary ones. Add on to that the fact you're retraining thousands of people, and you've got one heck of a mess on your hands.

    Nonetheless, hopefully they persevere.

    1. Re:migration by inode_buddha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd be very interested in seeing the results of their studies into TCO and migration, published openly after they get done. I think the OS community can use that kind of real-world feedback, and I'm *sure* that other (closed-source) vendors *will* use it. You know, so they can "Get the Facts".

      --
      C|N>K
  6. Do what we can...how? by privaria · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Let's keep our fingers crossed and do what we can to support this monumental effort that will benefit the whole Open Source Community."
    OK, sounds like a good idea. How?
    1. Re:Do what we can...how? by Malcontent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Volunteer to man an IRC channel.
      Write some documentation.
      Pretty up some already written documentation.
      Answer questions on the newsgroups without griping or insulting people.
      If you are German write the politicians praising them for their courage in choosing this solution and vote for them in the next election.
      If you are not German then write to them anyway and see if it's legal for you to send them some money. Even five or ten dollars would be a highly effective symbolic gesture.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    2. Re:Do what we can...how? by Yokaze · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd suggest rather to write your own representative and point out the initiative to her/him.

      This could have two positive effects:
      a) It supports the initiative when foreign dignitaries inquire about the project.
      b) It supports such movements in your own region.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
  7. Prove it.... by BWJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wired has a story that details some of the difficulties that Project LiMux seems to be experiencing in Munich. Including financial and technical issues.

    What this experiment will have to do is prove that Linux can do it for less money and be more efficient than proprietary solutions such as Windows.

    Studies on open-source security, desktop ergonomics and the software components' stability and compatibility with other applications will be included in the process.

    For my money, I would have bet on OS X providing a better system from these perspectives.

    IBM and Germany-based Linux distributor SuSE are expected to help offset the costs of the migration by supplying technical support and conducting some of the studies that the Munich city council has requested.

    This will most likely be of huge importance in maintaining this transition, but more support may be needed in bringing custom applications from Windows to Linux.

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    1. Re:Prove it.... by Anthony+Boyd · · Score: 2, Informative
      What this experiment will have to do is prove that Linux can do it for less money and be more efficient than proprietary solutions such as Windows.

      Huh? Wasn't the final quote from Microsoft much, much less money than the Linux quote? I thought from the start that they took the more expensive choice because it was the better choice. If in order to be successful it must now "prove that Linux can do it for less money" then we've doomed ourselves to failure from the start.

    2. Re:Prove it.... by Malcontent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The primary reasons for switching to linux were long term. They wanted to avoid a forced upgrade cycle and vendor lock in. I think everybody involved in the project understands that they will have to pay some up-front money, time, and effort in order to realize long term benefits.

      If you recall the winning linux bid actually cost more then the competing windows bid.

      I do find it highly unusual that any large entity let alone a governmental one actually chose to spend more money immediately to gain long term benefits though. That kind of thinking is pretty rare these days. I wish them all the luck.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    3. Re:Prove it.... by groomed · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What this experiment will have to do is prove that Linux can do it for less money and be more efficient than proprietary solutions such as Windows.

      Not really, not in the limited sense you seem to be suggesting anyway. What Linux gets them is freedom from one-size-fits-all solutions, freedom from restrictive license agreements, and freedom from vendor lock-in. It's not easy putting a price tag on these freedoms, since it takes years for them to translate into tangible benefits. It might very well turn out to be more expensive than a proprietary solution and less efficient. But cost isn't the only consideration. Even if cooking yourself is more expensive and less efficient than eating at McDonalds every day, it is still a good idea to cook your own food.

      For my money, I would have bet on OS X providing a better system from these perspectives.

      Maybe. But OS X still isn't free. Plus, Apple sucks in Europe. It is difficult to find stuff, very expensive, and the service is lousy.

  8. And the surprise is? by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So migrating all the systems from Win98 and Windows NT to Windows 2003 Server and WinXP desktops would have run within schedule and under budget? I think not. This is an IT project for god's sake, they never get completed on time and within budget. You will always strike issues and problems once you get into the thick of it.

    Why all the fuss? Why any fuss? Sounds like business as usual to me.

    Jedidiah

    1. Re:And the surprise is? by tuggy · · Score: 5, Interesting

      why all the fuss? good question, i think...

      <conspiracy>
      maybe it benefits "someone", to make a fuss out of this. so now they can say "SEE! we told you it was no good!"...
      </conspiracy>

      we just cant really trust the media anymore.. i just trust /. comments...

    2. Re:And the surprise is? by Coryoth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      why all the fuss? good question, i think...

      maybe it benefits "someone", to make a fuss out of this. so now they can say "SEE! we told you it was no good!"...

      No conspiracy theories needed - the media simply enjoys making a fuss out of anything they can get their hands on. Look at all the deluded reporting that went on accompanying the windows source leak! Or Janet Jackson at the superbowl for that matter. Hype, hype, and hype again. If more people could take a "yeah, whatever. Next please" attitude to all these unnecessary stories we wouldn't be quite so nose in crap.

      Jedidiah.

  9. Munich Council Press Statement by TasosF · · Score: 5, Informative

    Munich Council Press Statement (translated)

    Stefan Hauf
    Presseamt Muenchen
    http://www.muenchen.de

    Munich goes with Open Source Software
    The city of Munich will use Linux as the operating system for their 14,000 PC clients as well as open source software for their office applications.
    With the votes of SPD, Alliance 90/Die Gruenen/Pink list, FDP, OEDP, REP and Party of Democratic Socialism, the town assembly followed Mayor Christian Ude's proposal.

    An appraisal given by the city in order to evaluate the pro and cons of a conversion of the present urban standard "Windows NT/Microsoft Office" alternatively on "Windows XP/Microsoft Office" or "Linux/Open Office" comes to the conclusion that there is a clear strategic-qualitative projection/lead for the open source solution.

    Mayor Ude: "With this trend-setting decision Munich secures itself as the first major city to have a major portion of its IT infrastructure be supplier-independent and sets also a clear indication of more competition in the software market. The prehistory of this decision already showed that a competitive situation helps the formation of prices pretty well. "

    Regarding the decision, mayor Ude pointed out that this is not a decision for a specific IT partner, but a strategic positioning based on a noncommittal market evaluation.

    Until spring 2004, a detailed concept of implementation and migration will be developed. Based on the results of this evaluation, the city council will decide how the migration to Linux will take place.

    IBM Germany Statement

    May 28th 2003

    The city council of Munich today made a key decision to deploy the open source operating system Linux instead of alternative operating systems. This initiative will see Germany's third largest city migrate 14,000 desktop and notebook computers to Linux. Their objective is to deploy information technology that stimulates more commercial and technological flexibility at a lower cost to the public sector. Although the council has not made a decision on its choice of vendor, Linux distributor SuSE AG and IBM Germany will be participating in the resulting contract bid.

    Walter Raizner, Country General Manager IBM Germany: "In the public sector in Germany we have seen a variety of new implementations of open standards-based software such as Linux. And worldwide, more than 75 IBM government customers - including agencies in France, Spain, UK, Australia, Mexico, the United States and Japan - have now embraced open computing and Linux to save costs, consolidate workloads, increase efficiency and enact e-government transformation. With Munich's decision, one thing is clear - it's open season for open computing. Linux represents freedom and flexibility. This is essential in e-government - they need more flexibility to serve their constituencies better and faster, and freedom of choice to do it at less cost to the public. Munich is leading the way."

    1. Re:Munich Council Press Statement by JoScherl · · Score: 3, Informative

      There is the summary of the official "client study" available as PDF file. Since Munich relaunched its homepage I can't find it on their servers anymore, but it's here mirrored here (German). According to this mailing list posting there's also an Englisch and French translation available.

  10. You're gonna think this is flamebait by Michael+Crutcher · · Score: 5, Insightful
    .. but maybe they should have just used windows.

    But instead of paying $23.7 million for the Microsoft solution, Munich's city council opted to spend roughly $35.7 million to switch to open source, saying that the higher price would be offset by lower costs and more flexibility in licensing fees and software choices over the long run.

    That's an initial difference of $12.5 million, or $892 per system. They say that they'll make it up in the long run, but they must really mean long term.

    I love linux as much as the next guy, but the duty of this agency is to provide the cheapest solution to server their constinuents. This whole project smells to me like the council had a beef with Microsoft, and allowed that bias to lead to a poor business decision. Now they're trying to justify it so they don't have to admit that they made a mistake.

    There are probably organizations that are ready for a wholesale ms to linux migration, but this doesn't look to be one. All of their staff have to be retrained, the price is more expensive, and a considerable custom windows application base seem to make this a bad idea. The linux community can only be hurt by a square peg linux solution being shoved into a circle microsoft hole.

    Microsoft is loving this, and preparing marketing material right now that shows that replacing Microsoft with Linux doesn't make business sense. Business realities, not propoganda, should dictate migration to linux. Forcing the issue (as it appears they are doing) only hurts linux in the long run.

    1. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by hodet · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I hope you don't get modded flamebait because it's a valid concern. However, it's way too early to say the project is in trouble. For crying out loud, it's just a Wired article pointing out the drop dead obvious. Migrations are tough, we just did a migration to W2K Advanced Server where I work(I know I know...what can I say...not my decision) and you wouldn't believe the hitches along the way. The lock-in I am seeing is downright scary when I step back and look at the big picture.

      Give this project time and it will blossom, and that ~12Mil will be insignificant in comparison to the savings down the road.

      Being a pioneer is not easy, and Munich will end up better off in the long run.

    2. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Minwee · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right. With that $892 per system, they could upgrade Office once, and maybe even chip in for the next version of Windows.

    3. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you forget that as a publicly funded agency, the work they do - case studies, ported apps and expertise - will be utilised by future government swaps in germany. This 12 mill difference is the capital required to institute an SYSTEM WIDE ARCHITECTURE change and the mindshare and skills it develops for "future savings" apply to more than just munich council, it applies to many other german government agencies that will also swap.

    4. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's an initial difference of $12.5 million

      This does not matter if they have payed around $12.5 million to SuSE, because that stays within the German economy.

      I love linux as much as the next guy, but the duty of this agency is to provide the cheapest solution to server their constinuents

      For governments I disgree. The IBM/SuSE option helps SuSE, a German company. To me that is a smart choice.

    5. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So let me see if I understand this right - you're saying that switching to XP from W98, W95 and W3.11 (!) is not going to incur any user training costs ?

    6. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Yokaze · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you aware, that a decision had to be made because Microsoft decided to expire its old versions and licensing scheme? This required them to upgrade. The question now was whether they spend $23.7 million everytime Microsoft decides so, or they spend $35.7 million and are free to decide themselves when the next change come.

      The change in Munich and in other communities did not happen now, because Linux became suddenly more mature, but because they were all were posed with the same problem.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    7. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You just looked at the hard numbers. You forgot the intangibles they listed, such as "...more flexibility in licensing fees and software choices."

      They didn't do this based on cost alone. They could've easily went with any other costly solution without anyone batting an eye. The big deal here is that in the higher up levels, they had a series of huge meetings about supporting their local (German) economy instead of the US's and how they didn't want to be locked in, etc. There were probably thousands of man hours of people discussing things other than money.

    8. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Um, I don't think you get it. The reason it's costing them so much to switch over now is that their ENTIRE system is windows based. Sure, upgrading just the windows OS now would cost less but they would still be locked into Microsofts 2 year product upgrade cycle across the enitre spectrum of remaining Microsoft products.

      So in 6 months they have to upgrade Office and thats another 12 mil and then in a few months again they have to upgrade something else, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

      By spending upfront now they are hoping to cut out this cyclic cost of continuous upgrades. Once this switch is complete they can upgrade any portion of thier networks software quickly and very, very cheaply.

      Are you thinking by 'cheaper in the long term' they are mean they are looking a decade down the road? I bet they aren't even talking about 2 years. Especially now that Microsoft is suggesting (i.e. ordering) that thier clients switch over to a subscription service. Suddenly, they're not looking at 10 - 20 mil every year its more like 1 - 2 million a month every month. From an interest point of view alone that a HUGE change.

      For the I.T. guys in Munich to never be on the recieving end of "Great! 500 it is!" again, is I am sure, worth the extra cost alone.

    9. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by roberri · · Score: 5, Interesting

      But instead of paying $23.7 million for the Microsoft solution...

      Don't forget though that Microsofts initial proposal was $36.6m! Ballmer flew out there do demonstrate how keen MS was to keep Munich's business. MS then subsequentally cut the cost to $31.9m and then finally $23.7m.

      A similar thing happened in the UK where Newham Council in London considered migrating away from a MS environment to a Open Source environment. A Linux based desktop (not sure about backend stuff) was designed, built and trialed. MS sponsored an "independent" consultancy firm to do a TCO Investigation which, surprisingly, found that the MS Solution would have a lower TCO. The most interesting aspect of this case is that it became quite high profile in the UK and it soon became apparent that MS where very eager to secure the deal. However, in no small part due to the media exposure this story received, MS where given two choices; either aggresively discount their proposal or risk a humiliating defeat (remember the "Under no circumstances lose to Linux" memo?). Newham Council eventually chose to stick with Microsoft, citing the difficulties of getting a reliable Exchange 5.5 client for Linux, but not before they had secured a deal that was apparently an order of magnitude better than the deal that the UK Govt. has! Not bad for a poverty-stricken East-London Council!

    10. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by sheldon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The results of this project being over budget and having compatibility problems really are not that surprising. I've been involved in various migrations over the years. OS/2->NT, 3.1->95, 95->NT, NT->XP. Nothing ever goes as expected.

      Every time, as you get into it, you find that some software doesn't work as expected. You have to come up with a workaround and/or a solution. These take some time, slow down the project, whatever.

      But a dramatic determining factor in this equation has to do with how mainstream is your problem, and how likely it is someone else will fix it before you do.

      The problem I see with Linux is that the dynamics that exist in the Windows market to help with your deployment problems simply don't exist in the Linux market. There are going to be issues that may not be resolved for 3-4 years or more rather than the six month timeframe you see in the Windows market.

      It's a chicken & egg situation... that dynamic will change as more people adopt Linux, but if I was a CIO I wouldn't bet my company on it.

    11. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by eldacan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Red Hat (or at least a company from another EU country like Mandrake) gave a cheaper bid, would they have to go with that one? I am no expert, but these rules are not difficult to bend somewhat in the prefered direction: cost is only one of the elements that you consider when you choose which company you'll appoint for the job. It's the objective one. Other elements such as quality, "fitness", etc. are more subjective and can be used to justify you choice. One of the obvious justification for choosing Suse is that being a German company, their products certainly offer a better support for the German language, support will be at hand and available in German, etc.

    12. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Yokaze · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > But how does this tie in with current European Union licitation(right english word?) rules?

      The tendering procedure (word?) of a govermental project within the EU has to open to any EU company. Neglecting a better bid from another European company is as much a crime as neglecting a better bid from another German company. (And is as hard to prove)

      > [...] millions of euro's to an American company when [...]

      They do. SuSE has been bought by Novell.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    13. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by Yokaze · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > [...] since I assume SuSE still has many German employees [...] SuSE has certain advantages for German costumer [...]

      In contrast to Microsoft Germany, which has certainly more employees than SuSE? (And was voted Best Employer 2003 in Germany in the +500 employeer category)

      In contrast to the assumption most people here make, I'd say the more important fact was that it was backed by IBM. That the relatively small (once) German company SuSE is part of it only sweetened it.
      When, say RedHat and HP, placed a similar offer it would have been considered, but the point is, at that time, there was only SuSE and IBM.

      SuSE alone wouldn't stand a chance as they surely don't have the man-power.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    14. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 2, Informative
      Things like the Exchange problem are going to get resolved.

      Microsoft are in a difficult position - most of their software does everything people want, feature wise. How many people can name what's in Office 2003 over Office 97, or what's the new features in the latest version of Project?

      So, Microsoft can't make startling quantum leaps forward because there's nowhere to go - there versions now are like changes to the 100m sprint record.

      The OSS guys will be plugging more and more holes, and more businesses and authorities will start switching.

    15. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by AstroDrabb · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I see the point you are trying to make, however I think there are a few points you might not be taking into consideration.

      Munich was a long time user of MS software and like other companies/governments, have felt the heavy hand of MS far too often. The MS deal was originally a little more, however the "dancing monkey" didn't want to lose this deal and made that huge cut in the final offer. This type of action is exactly what Munich and many others want to get away from.

      If MS could make an offer that was $12+ milllion less, why in the world did they not make that offer from the begining? Because MS wants to suck all the money they can get from you while you are their customer. Forced upgrades, high prices and intentionally making their software incompatible with standards to lock you in. The fact is, is that MS could make a huge profit while still selling their software for much less, not make their software incompatible with non-MS software/standards, not try to force upgrades, etc.

      It is my opinion that what Munich is doing _is_ the best chioce. Munich will now control their own IT and not have the heavy hand of MS to deal with. Sure there will be growing pains, however those pains will quickly dissapear and leave Munich with an excellent IT infrastructure that _they_ control.

      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
    16. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by 'nother+poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As a friend of mine was always fond of saying, "Pioneers are the guys coming out if the woods with arrows in their backs. Settlers are the one going into the woods with axes in their hands." Munich is a pioneer. They will get the sharp end of the stick, right in the face. In a few years, hopefully, Tokyo, Paris, Berlin, New York, and others get a hand up by grabbing hold of the stick created by Munich. After cities come states and provinces. Then nations. It doesn't have to be Linux, but it will most likely be something open source.

    17. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by TKinias · · Score: 3, Funny

      scripsit JoeZeppy:

      "including the costs involved in retraining city employees accustomed to working with Windows 98, 95 and 3.1"

      They're migrating from early 1990's software.

      You clearly have a different definition of `early 1990s' than most of us if you consider 1998 to be `early 1990s'...

      --
      In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
    18. Re:You're gonna think this is flamebait by RoLi · · Score: 4, Insightful
      You forget some important facts:

      • Fact 1. Windows was only cheaper because of Ballmer's special discounts. It is very naive to think that Munich will get those discounts at every upgrade.
      • Fact 2. Linux is a multi-vendor technology which makes it much easier to change Vendors in the future. Any company will only offer discounts when it fears to lose the contract. With Linux it's much easier to switch contractors so contractors will have no other choice than to work with thin margins.
      • Fact 3. Linux can be supported locally which means that about half of every Euro spent locally will come back in the form of taxes.
      • Fact 4. Windows TCO studies lie about hidden costs, most importantly the cost to maintain anti-Virus technology and of course the cost of worms and viruses themselves. Even Microsoft was hit by Slammer, so everybody who says that a large Windows installation can be immune against worms or viruses is lying
      • Fact 5. Cost wasn't the main reason for the switch in the first place. Munich wanted more flexibility, security and no longer being dependent on a vendor. Another reason was to create more competition between vendors in the whole area, including the private sector which is inspired by Munich's switch. Munich switching will cause millions of discounts because of increased competition (see fact 1). Sorry, but even with Windows being offered for nothing, it still can't fullfill these requirements.

      So please cut down the FUD a bit.

  11. The flow of Tax dollars into Microsoft's pockets by Rassendyll · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here in Canada, most government departments and agencys are either undertaking, or considering the migration from Windows NT 4.0 and Windows 95 to Windows 2000. I once added up the total cost of Windows NT 4 Workstation licences, NT 4 Server licenses, NT 4 CALs, and MS Office 2000 licenses for the government agency that I worked for (~20000 pcs served by ~500 NT 4 servers) and the figure wasn't pretty. A signifigant portion of the operating costs for many government offices goes to buying access to Microsoft's IP; I would like to see my tax dollars used in a more productive manner. Kudos to Munich and best wishes that their problems will be overcome shortly.

    --
    An eye for an eye... leaves the whole world blind.
  12. Munich is important. by bersl2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The OSS movement can't affort to blow this. It's, IMO, that important to demonstrate to the city of Munich that they, without a doubt, made the right decision. Set a precident.

    The fun and games---if they weren't over before, they are now.

    1. Re:Munich is important. by __past__ · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The "OSS movement" doesn't have much influence in this. The munich civil servants, SuSE and IBM have.

      As for the fun and games - I don't see why I should care about munich, or IBM, or Joe User, adopting Linux. What made open source what it is today was a combination of enthusiastic hackers writing better software than the corporate drones were allowed to, and companies trying to make money off that software. The companies won't stop trying to earn money, and I don't see a reason why the hackers should stop hacking for fun.

  13. Cost Problems by underground+alliance · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think it's especially interesting to note the high cost of migration. I wonder how the cost of open-source can be so much higher than overpriced windows. I agree that they will save money over the long run, though.

    I would also have to think that the city could form a partnership with SuSe. It would be beneficial for the both of them. Maybe they could put up SuSe billboards throughout the city in exchange for discounted software. If Linux companies can form those kind of alliances, windows will be eradicated quickly. Obviously Microsoft can be brought to its knees quickly, as seen from the article!

    They also really need to do more studies like the one mentioned in the article. Since Linux can consistently undersell Microsoft, all they need to do is concentrate on studies. Once they improve ease-of-use and ease-of-learning issues and prove that is in fact is easy to use in the studies, Linux will be the OS of choice for the general public.

  14. Business as usual by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So migrating a large governemtal user base from Windows to Linux is experiencing some difficulties. Gee...whodathunk?
    Only the (very vocal) /. fanbois predicted an easy transition. "Just install Linux! All your problems will be solved!"

    The real outcome will be in 3 or 4 years. Everything will have been transitioned and shakendown. Then, and only then can we see if has actually been beneficial or not. We can see the parts where a unified Linux base has worked, and where it has failed.

  15. Migrating to Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't believe Linux on desktop will be ever successfull, but anybody who is serious enough to invest their time should think twice. There is too much hype about Linux on desktop. The main reason to migrate to Linux seem to be the hatred for Microsoft, but not many people hate Microsoft, on the contrary what it seems from the news media. People are pretty much neutral about it. On the other hand, over time, people realize that most of the things they hear about Microsoft and Linux are simply put, pure lie and distortion of facts. Just look at the IBM's plan to migrate Office to Linux, it is pure news media made up story. If you seriously believe in that, you are going to have a very hard time implementing a linux desktop solution. If this project dies, it would be a disaster for the hopes of having linux on desktop.

    1. Re:Migrating to Linux by Von+Helmet · · Score: 5, Insightful

      All the damn time I'm reading "Linux isn't ready for the desktop".

      I'musing Linux on the desktop.

      It works fine. Does this mean I'm doing something wrong? I mean, it's not meant to work, is it?

      Linux is ready for the desktop, as shown by the countless people using it on the desktop. Hell, you're at Slashdot, look around you...

      The real issue is that Linux isn't ready for mass consumption in the same way that Windows is, but that's largely because people have had Microsoft stuffed down their throats for... ooh... 20 years? Something like that. People have issues with Linux because they're so used to doing everything the Microsoft way. People are taught that computers run Windows, and for 90% of people there is no other OS. Most people wouldn't know what an OS even is! It's inconveivable for computers to run any other way.

      There are distro's combatting this though. I mean, first up there's obvious candidate's like Lindows; but things like Redhat (Fedora, whatever) and Mandrake are getting extremely user friendly. For the average end user a decent RedHat install will do most things - e-mail, internet, Office type stuff. It's only the hardcore minority among us that need more complex stuff and thus spend sleepless nights tweaking the kernel, trying to get Wine to run properly, trawling the net for those obscure drivers... But most people never even think about that type of stuff

      Long story short - Linux is ready for the desktop, but people just need a bit of re-education to get their head round it, same as a lot of people need education to use Windows in the first place. A lot of end users need training to use Windows in the first place, and then need training with each new version of Windows, so training in Linux shouldn't be too much harder.

      Here endeth the lesson.
  16. TCO / strategy by maharg · · Score: 4, Informative

    they went for lower total cost of ownership, and superior strategic position, not lower initial cost.

    --

    $ strings FTP.EXE | grep Copyright
    @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
  17. OktoberLinux? by thecountryofmike · · Score: 2, Funny
    Cool. Does this mean we can get Oktoberfest-flavoured linux?

    Where do I sign?

  18. Money and Freedom by octal666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Money seems to be the main problem here, and I think when things come to public administration money is not the most important thing.

    The most important thing to a public administration should be citizens, and there are a few issues that propietary software doesn't do for citizens. First of all, doesn't let to audit the code, and this is a problem when you manage sensible information. Another thing that Microsoft don't does for Munich citizens is promoting local software industry, here in Europe, apart from free vs. propietary software we have another problem. Import vs. local development. Linux es the only horse we can ride. And it's from european origin, also :)

    More money, maybe, but why spend this money in a foreign industry when you can spend it developing the local software industry?

    --
    DON'T PANIC
  19. Re:The flow of Tax dollars into Microsoft's pocket by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I got a scarier one for you.

    I am reading a proposal from CATSA (the Canadian version of TSA) right now. They are an ENTIRELY MS shop...desktops, servers, directory etc. Not only is that scary, the RFP is to create "secured" web apps that will share personal information, CAD drawing of airports and check points, counts of people passing through those check points and lists of the stuff that has been confiscated between all 89 Canadian airports and CATSA head office in Ottawa.

    They want this to run on their existing infrastructure. :-O

    The information is CLEARLY classified info (that is, it will be SECRET or even TOP SECRET). There is no way this stuff should be any where near an MS system except maybe for a desktop, and even then, it should be accessed through Moz instead of IE.

    I find it absolutely outrageous that MS will make money while putting our national security at risk. I hope they can be convinced to at least store the data on Trusted Solaris....

    Since the RFP is still live, you will understand why I post ANON...

    I'd like to know how an agency so clearly centered around security has an MS server infrastructure in the first place. I know CSE (Communications Security Establishment - our NSA) and the RCMP don't use Windows except on the desktop, why should CATSA.

    Somebody suure sold them a bill of goods.

  20. Re:Hate to burst everyone's bubble by Cipster · · Score: 2, Informative

    Did you miss the part where Munich turned down a sweetened offer from microsoft?

  21. Re:If there is one place by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If there is one place that will be the turning point for OSS and Linux, it will be Europe and Asia. Wait: I guess that isn't one place! :)
    Don't forget South America. Start with Brazil, where a majority of Latin America lives (i.e., the population of Brazil is larger than that of the rest of Latin America combined). Brazil's government sees OSS as a way to bridge the "digital divide," as a way to develop the Brazilian IT industry, as a way to free the Brazilian government from dependence on an American company that may more may not open special "back doors" for the US Government (Remember the NSA Key?), and as a less-expensive way of developing Brazil's IT infrastructure. I really believe it is much more than just talk to negotiate better license terms from Microsoft.

    --Mark
    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
  22. It is flamebait by ValourX · · Score: 3, Interesting

    $892 per system... but you're talking about hardware and software that will be working until it dies or is completely replaced by a new fleet of systems. To begin with, GNU/Linux (especially SuSE) brings new life to old machines because it works better with older hardware than Windows does. One deciding factor for this choice may have been that Windows XP doesn't support some of their current machines whereas SuSE does. So $892 may have to pay for a whole new computer, OS, and Office license.

    While we're on the subject of licensing, let me remind you that the MS EULA prohibits you from doing everything except using the software on a limited basis. If you lose the license sticker or CD, that license becomes effectively invalid and you are unable to legally reinstall it. I don't know what the penalty in Germany is, but in the US it's $150,000 plus the cost of the license in question -- and prayer for no criminal charges, which are $200,000 plus five years in prison.

    Lastly, Microsoft forced this upgrade on them with their bullshit licensing. They bullied Munich into an upgrade -- why would anyone stick with a company that attempts to force you to pay them for unnecessary upgrades? The article says that some machines were still using Windows 3.1, meaning they had no need for anything above that and in all liklihood (as mentioned above) they would not be able to upgrade to WinXP.

    Windows really isn't a very good solution for a business environment. The only value it has is in third-party software support, which has nothing to do with Microsoft (outside of MS Office and VB).

    -Jem
  23. Re:I find it worrying that... by deitel99 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Preditory pricing like this is a lot more worrying than with Internet Explorer. Okay, Microsoft bundled one piece of software into the cost of something a lot bigger, giving people the impression the smaller piece of software is free, hence Netscape lost. This is bad, but not nearly as specific an attack as they tried in Munich.

    If Microsoft is able to sell the same software to different parties at different prices (ie the maximum price that party is willing to pay without swapping) then there is no hope for OSS use anywhere on a commercial basis. Microsoft can always afford to give discounts to the small few who think of switching.

  24. Biggest problem ? by foobsr · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Reports in Computerwoche also stated that local vendors who currently code applications for the city were experiencing problems in developing applications for the open-source operating system, since they are more familiar with Windows than Linux.

    This is concerning special administrative software that has to be (frequently) updated when regulations change. As I read elsewhere, vendors are not willing (or reluctant) to come up with LINUX solutions.

    A chance for startups, I guess.

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)
  25. Looks bad from what I heard in munich by Lispy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am working in Munich for a large publishing house in IT and what I heard (partly, though, from munichs Microsoft workers) the whole project isn't doing well. When I met a MS employee lately he had that evil grin when he said: "If there is one thing that won't bring OpenSource on the Desktop it will be the Munich migration! They [the Munich IT department] are rather incompetent, they are currently even trying to run Winapps inside VmWare, and they don't have the manpower to get the thing flying."

    I am not sure how far he really is into the subject but from what I know from living in munich for 20 years now is that the city is cutting back on finances, and that there was more than one project that wasn't really thought through before making the decision. I really, really hope they can handle it, but the latest relaunch of www.muenchen.de, the cities new online-portal, was a catastrophe (a friend of mine worked at the project) and if that's any indication than they might be in trouble...I don't have any inside information, I am just stating what I learned from watching the "Rathaus" through the years as a munich citizen...

    Lispy

    1. Re:Looks bad from what I heard in munich by kisak · · Score: 2, Insightful
      , and they don't have the manpower to get the thing flying."

      But you forget that they have the support contract from SuSE and IBM. These two companies knows the high profile of Munich and I am confident they won't let it slip. Even if the Munich IT people are not the top of the crop, they can call IBM and SuSE when things get tricky, two reliable computer companies that I would have much more confidence in when making a support call than MS any day.

      --

      --- guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people ---

  26. Re:I find it worrying that... by MicroBerto · · Score: 3, Insightful
    What in the hell are you talking about, "So much for capitalism." ???

    This IS WHAT CAPITALISM IS ALL ABOUT -- COMPETITION. I don't care whose product we use, I just want it to work, and I want it to be fairly priced. And guess what -- we (the linux community) are the sole reason for getting microsoft to drop their prices. We are now COMPETITIVE. This is huge. This is what capitalism is all about. MS can't strongarm every company in the world for too much longer. You can now threaten them with the big L word or the big blue.

    This is incredible. Others are going to see that MS can have lower prices, and we can now negotiate with the devil.

    --
    Berto
  27. You're wrong by Baki · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The goal of governments is not to do anything as cheap as possible, but to do the right thing.

    The right thing, IMHO, is that no state may make itself dependant on a single external (commercial) entity. I would say, no matter what the cost, it is the obligation of any decent government to free themselves of any strangleholds that may exist.

    As a side effect, it will be much much cheaper in the long term. Someone must make a first step; after that, the compatability issues shall diminish, and others to follow (e.g. other cities) shall have less problems. Once we are saved from the dictate of proprietary file formats (getting rid of which does cost some money initially) the savings are enormous.

    Contrary to quoted companies, states do not only have to look at next quarters financial, i.e. be extremely short sighted, but have to think on timescales of up to 50 years.

  28. Re:This is n't bad news by CliffH · · Score: 4, Informative

    Wow, deja vu. Just as good as the last time this response was used. If you're going to copy something, at least make sure you change it around just a little bit. Outright copying of comments is just lame at best.

    --
    sigs are like a box of chocolates, they all suck remove the underscores to email me
  29. Re:I find it worrying that... by deitel99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The attempt by Microsoft to cut prices for one customer (preditory pricing against a competitor) is definitely anti-capitalist, since in a free-market situation you have to sell each product for the same price to all customers. Otherwise the system doesn't work efficiently and you end up with market failures such as monopoly.

    In basic economics this is Microsoft attempting to eat into the consumer-surplus. It is anti-competitive and hence anti-capitalist.

    You are right in that Linux is now competiting with Microsoft enough that they are having to lower their prices, which is a good thing. However, Microsofts response simply negates any competition Linux may pose, since they can lower prices for the few individuals who do threaten to swap until they promise not to and buy into the current lock-in situation. We'd have to wait until 10% of Microsoft's customers threaten to swap simultaniously for it to effect Microsofts bottom line.

  30. Whoaa, that's just the licensing by christian+simpleman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Are we comparing apples and apples? The Microsoft figure was just for the licensing (from all indications), not counting the pain and agony of migrating 14,000 PCs to XP and 2003, a process that I promise would not be painless. Not to mention the four or five (or more) "critical updates" and patches in mid-project. The IBM SUSE figure was a guesstimate at the whole project. Wouldn't you have to add a huge deployment chunk to the MS figure for a fair comparison?

    --
    "If no one tilts at windmills, the damn things will take over the world!"- christian simpleman
  31. I just reread my post by Lispy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and found I'd better clear things up a bit.
    My point was that in Germany we have had a recent tendency to rush things. There are numoerous examples, the launch of the UMTS-Network debacle (highspeed mobile network), the Transrapid (a magnetic monorail) fiasco in China and, worst of all, the tollcollect (a sattelite based system to charge on traffic) desaster. All of these projects were ambitious and technically challenging and all of them have a long history of failure and mismanagement. I really love this city and I appreciate the brave decision of the city council to try the switch. But I have this fear that they will blow it and Munich will not be known as the "Linux-Capitol" but rather as the "bad example". Keep your fingers crossed that I am wrong!!

    btw: here's a link to the english page of muenchen.de.

    Good night.
    Lispy

  32. the mistake is in making a mass migration by jrexilius · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Despite the wet dreams of the pointy-hairs the best way to do a large system migration is not to make a project out of it but to set it as an objective.

    I understand peoples fear of uncertainty and their inclination towards organizing everything to avoid "chaos" but making a project of that scale is really just a nice way of deluding yourself. It will be chaos regardless.

    If you want to migrate a disrtibuted organization of 14,000 desktops and unkown amount of servers from one operating system to another you do it by setting an enterprise standard and then knocking it out one project, system, or group at a time. Hell even microsoft didnt do a mass migration from their old unix desktops to their own operating system en masse, they migrated slowly where it made sense and pushed the remainder.

    I will not be suprised if this project partially fails.

  33. Something here smells funny by OECD · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But according to Computerwoche and other reports, the city lacks the funds to invest in the planned testing and development of an open-source solution.

    They've got about $35 million budgeted for this migration, and they're out of money at the 'testing and development' phase? How did they come up with their replacement cost figures without doing some 'testing'?

    --
    One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    1. Re:Something here smells funny by AstroDrabb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I doubt they are out of money. A budget is usually a floating target. They most likely broke the migration down to phases and gave each phase $X,XXX amount of money. They probably under budgeted the testing/dev phase, and went over the budget for testing/dev and so that means they will have to either take money from some other phase or come up with more money. Poor budgeting will get you every time.

      --
      If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
      it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
  34. Tough--from experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Linux is a pretty tough change. Gradual migration is necessary for continuty of operation, so you must work with interoperability.

    I have set up in the past a Linux intranet servce in a Windows IT environment, precisely because I thought that it would be "better" in the long run to work with Tomcat/Apache/Linux than WebLogic/WebSphere/Windows.

    The basic set-up was very easy, as always. But soon we got into things related to security & authorizations, for which we needed to interface with Active Directory... I'm glad we had some time to do this right. "Active Directory access from Java over LDAP with Kerberos authentication to a Win2K domain controller" is very sparsely and partially documented, and then what you can find on the net relates to earlier versions of software, other distros... A lot of testing and trying with some very good people on the task, and finally we got it off the ground. It's not the kiddie-script grade stuff or burn-a-distro-and-enjoy story we like to hear.

    This was in a top-tier R&D lab, with research-grade time on our hands. Basically our core business. Now I'm not sure the municipal office of Munich can do these kinds of things themselves... And if they hire consultants to do it for them, you can be pretty sure they'll take advantage of their unawareness.

    In that particular case, we got for a short period of time a MS Consulting dude to help us. The poor guy knew less about MS' own products than us! Now imagine the same guy "advising" the Munich city office on how to better interoperate with Microsoft's products.

    Here's the timeline
    1- City of Munich goes Linux
    2- City of Munich realizes during the migration it will need to interoperate with Windows
    3- City of Munich to MS: one more thing, guys... before we ditch you, how do we interoperate with your products exactly? No, not for us (we don't do, we make others do), but we need to tell our IT subcontractors.
    4- IT subcontractors blame bad interop on MS, who blames it back on these sloppy-Linux-hackers--and meanwhile, computers kaputt
    5- ???
    6- One good "TCO" sell point for MS?

  35. Oh, how right you are. by Lispy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If only my boss would have realized this before they started to migrate the 500 desktops into their new domain. That would have saved a lot of time and trouble.

    *sigh*

  36. Coincidence: IBM Wants to Port Office to Linux? by smchris · · Score: 3, Funny

    (As posted at 10:37).

    Sounds to me like Munich is having second thoughts about not keeping Office.

  37. Re:I find it worrying that... by T-Ranger · · Score: 3, Informative
    First, this wasen't a negotiation. Munich did not say "Hey, whats you best price.. Thats too high.." They were quoted a price from MS, and one from IBM/SuSE. They made a public anouncement and then MS offered a lower price.

    This is how tenders happen. Bidders get one chance at offering a price. That MS lowered their price after they heard someone elses means that a) they have insane amounts of profit and/or b) their new price will cut lots of corners. Now, software isn't something like construction where a shaved down bit might produce a building that falls down... The incremental cost to MS is zero, once the R&D is done. But the same general logic applies. That MS came back with a lower price, Im sure, solidified the plan to go with Linux. They were clearly trying to screw Munich with their first price.

    Ignoring that the loosing bidder was MS for a second, they deserved to loose, their second bid not withstanding.

    But, the bidder was not just a random company trying to screw Munich, it was Microsoft. Microsoft is a monopoly. Being a monopoly isnt illegal. Some specific acts arnt illegal in general. However, a monopoly that performs those specific acts is breaking the law. One of those is dumping. While we dont know MS's cost for this project (and that is largely meaningless in this zero-incremental cost industry), we do know that their second try was lower then the competition. Additionaly, the (winning) linux bid had some non-zero cost items. Retraning. Redevelopement of custom software, amongst others Im sure.

    Monopolies are not allowed to set prices intentional lower then is possible for the competition.

  38. Re:I find it worrying that... by Yokaze · · Score: 2, Informative

    > It is anti-competitive and hence anti-capitalist.
    > since in a free-market situation you have to sell each product for the same price to all customers

    Where did you get that idea? Do I have to sell the same product to my concurrent for the same price? Do I have to sell it to small buyer to the same price as to a quantity buyer? Do I have to sell it to the same price to a celebrity than I sell it to Mr Smith.

    The city of Munic, a quantity buyer and relatively known entity decided to buy from a different seller. Microsoft decided to leverage its large captial to lower the price, maybe even so far that they make a minus, for the sake of big, known buyer, in fear of losing more clients and to knock out a competitor. Capitalism at work. Just because you don't like it, don't call it otherwise.

    --
    "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
  39. So, whats new by unoengborg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Over 75% of all IT projects fail totally, is late or over budget. Most of them are not Linux projects.

    So, Microsoft is in no position to gloat over any Linux setbacks in Munich.

    This is a problem that probably has more to do with leadership, management methods than with any specific technology like Linux or Windows.

    Even if the up front cost for switching to Linux turns out to be higher than expected, it will probably be cheaper in the long run. Using Linux they will be in much better control of their future upgrade costs.

    Not to mention that, money spent on Linux stays in the local economy instead of feeding a foreign company.

    --
    God is REAL! Unless explicitly declared INTEGER
  40. Resistance costs money... by Eric+Damron · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Most people I know resist change. In my shop we upgraded from Word 6.0 to Word 95 (years ago) and so we rewrote all of the Word Macros from the old scripting language to the new VBA.

    We tried to keep the look and feel exactly the same. But we had complaints from users about things as trivial as button sizes. The application didn't look the same. And of course anything that goes wrong after a change is blamed on the change even if it is totally unrelated. It's just human nature I guess.

    Anyhow, we spent a lot of wasted time during the convention dealing with bogus user complaints. It just goes with the territory. You have to do it to keep the users happy and you should do it with a smile on your face.

    This change was no where nearly as drastic as switching from Windows to Linux. I can just imagine what the poor IT people are going through. All I can say is: Hang in there. Do what you need to do to keep the users as happy as possible. Things will get better and once use to Linux they won't want to go back to Windows anymore.

    --
    The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
  41. You trolls are all missing the point by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    the cost of MIRGATING to linux is higher than the annual fees of ms software. MIRGATING people. thats different to forking out for upgrades. for this they are having to redevelope software and test systems which costs in man hours. frankly i'd be shocked if this inital change didn't cost more. lets have a look 2 years from now and i'm betting they will be saving millions.

    --
    If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
  42. All they have to do is ask? by codepunk · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Give me a ssh connection to some servers and tell me what you need. I would be happy to configure machines for them.... total cost 0$ . Give me a couple servers and a stack of cd's and I can show you how to bring online 500 clients in one day.

    If you had the typical windows IT shop they would attempt this by trying to deploy linux as you would windows which is not the way to do it. Linux in a business or government environment should always be deployed thin client. Remember the MS deployment model is geared towards "selling licenses" and not efficency.

    Any open source user is a friend of mine!

    --


    Got Code?
    1. Re:All they have to do is ask? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The problem is that they wouldn't DO anything!!!

      The biggest problem isn't the initial Linux installs, it's that every middle manager has their own pet software usually Excel sheets with crappy macros, or commercial canned Access programs....All that stuff is most difficult to get working. Sure you can use Wine, but the point is that you don't know till you get there what they were using. On top of that Mid-managers espically are resistant to change...or redoing their work.[unless of course they deem it ememgency!] even if it saves the department money in the long run!

  43. Europe is growing rapidly; Wild Wild East ! by openmtl · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Unlike the US, the EU is expanding. In May this year 10 new countries become part of the EU. Bordering Germany is Czeck republic and Poland - thats 48 Million people - around 260 Billion Euros GDP so not very rich but will get a few Billion Euros in EU money to easy transition: of which IT spending will, as usual, be a significant expense.

    Germany is right in the middle of this. Strategicly the OSS/Linux vendors are in for a bonus few years.

    You can guarantee that IBM, Novell and SuSE will all want to make this work out fine because they would then sell this solution on.

    You have to ask youself - why spend hard earned EU taxpayer money on Microsoft licenses when it can be spent on local service providers integrating freely available OSS software ?. IBM Global Service are asking that same question - pity SCO are not getting stuck in too as their traditional strength in vertical integration would be perfect for the new EU countries, but now no-one will touch them with a barge pole.

    --

  44. On the issue of cost by groomed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    To my considerable surprise, many people seem to think that a free software/open source solution will be or will have to be cheaper than the proprietary solutions. That's a misconception.

    Free software doesn't compete with proprietary software on cost, reliability, performance or features. It's not even really appropriate to use the word compete, since the metric of success is so different for free software than for proprietary products. A proprietary product succeeds when it makes money. But when does free software succeed? When it attracts a lot of users, maybe. But what does that accomplish?

    Well, it liberates users. The goal of proprietary software is to make money. The goal of free software is to liberate users. Not to make cheaper software, or even better software (although we try), but to make users more free. Any other motive just does not survive contact with reality. Nobody starts their project with the idea of making a cheaper widget. Most people start their project with the idea of making a better widget, but this seems to be a very elusive and highly subjective quality. The truth is we don't know how to make "better" software any more than the proprietary people do.

    The benefit of free software is not that it's cheaper or better, since these are after the fact rationalizations at best and misleading fantasies at worst. The benefit is that it frees users from mindlessly protectionist policy, draconian restrictions on use and distribution, and a whole universe of demeaning do-not-trust-the-customer attitudes.

    This freedom might be more expensive than the alternative, or it might be less expensive in the long run, or it might lead to better software, or not: these are issues that are infinitely malleable in the hands of a skilled advocate. But it all derives from the motive of freedom -- not the mere availability of source code.

  45. The damnation of the bottom line.... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With short termism prevalent in the corporate world, with people achieving success by meeting expected profits per quarter, and failed if expectations are not met (hint, profiuts were still made), it comes as no surprise that people can only measure success of a project merely on TCO or migration costs. The brainwashing of powerful IT companies is working wonderfully.

    I want to be the owner of my IT infrastructure, both at home and at work (that is my compny or employer), I want to make the decisions of how, when and who does maintenance to my IT infrastrucutre, I don;t want to migrate or upgrade because it is convenient to the provider and when the provider asks me to upgrade or migrate I want to be able to shopr around for possible options.

    I could not care less if going OSS will cost me a few bucks more in the short term if in the long term I will regain the control of my IT infrastrucutre which should be reflected in saner decision when spending money.

    Shortermists should jump from a clift and marvel at the tremendous speed they achieve just one second before they come to a complete halt once they hit the floor.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  46. Montysoft FUD? by carabela · · Score: 2, Funny

    Our Primary weapons are Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt...

    --

    The more you know, the less you need. [Admin added: from me.]