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Mac v. Microsoft TCO
NickFitz writes "MacWorld UK has some comments from industry analysts on the question of whether Total Cost of Ownership, Microsoft's favourite metric, is lower for Apple Mac versus Windows. The MS website has no figures to refute the claim that 'An Apple technician may cost twice as much, but he comes to see you half as often.'" Bottom line: neither platform is the clear winner.
Has anyone done a review of Linux TCO vs. the above competitors. It would be interesting to see how a "Linux Technician" stacks up with Windows and Mac techs.
~.Evanrude
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
So here's a story that outright says "we have no idea, and the whole thing is bogus anyhow".
Well, at least it's honest.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Hi. I'm Troy McClure. You might remember me from such computer-battle movies as "Because I said so: Nyahh!" and "Microsoft vs the Smog Monster". The TCV (total cost of viewing) is a mere $9 at your local metroplex! Now that there won't be any damn hobbit movies, maybe the Troyster is up for an academy award in 2005? Let us see.
And you have jwz to thank for it, eh? I guess you can start moving people away from Linux next...
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
Is a Mac cheaper to run and does a Mac make a user more productive?
... just ain't gonna happen now.
If the answer is yes, does it really matter?
More importantly, does ANYBODY in corporate America consider this when buying their machines? I'll betcha, TCO means buying a "reliable" PC that's not made of crappy generic parts, and nowhere does a Mac come into the equation, even though it might very well be the better choice.
ROI means handing that machine down the line from programmers to office support, to milk as much out of it until it heads for a landfill, and nobody figures out how productive their people are on the thing during its lifetime.
Why? Because there's really no choice. Not in any practical sense.
So, it's really about how well a machine runs Windows, not how Windows compares to any other OS. That's because the market perception is that "the battle is over and Windows won." We feel enough anxiety about upgrading our machines, adding new software. To open up the decision process to worrying about entire platforms again
So Apple finds itself in a tough spot, appealing to those who want to "switch" in hopes that if it can gain enough market share and mind share, it can pry open the door of possibility eventually.
But it's going to be almost impossible, not because Apple can't offer a better product, but because people have become so shellshocked from the PC/Internet experience that they just want to settle down and go with the flow... the Windows flow.
So when I saw the above article, I thought to myself that even if Apple were to offer irrefutable truth to lower TCO/higher ROI, how much would it really, really matter?
Not much, unfortunately. Not right now. But perhaps, little by little...
You're right! There's no version of HotBar for the Mac. For some strange reason, the Klez worm has yet to sprout a Mac version. How can my users live without these vital applications?
But at my company, all people do is read email, write email, browse the web (including use of my custom web application), and create documents. Maybe 10% of our employees use a Windows-based accounting package my custom web application manipulates.
Since the Mac supports Microsoft Office, there's nothing our people don't do that couldn't be done with a Mac.
Most people don't need, use or want a huge amount of software.
Unless they have a HotBar addiction, that is.
D
I'm tired of all these slashdot stories that all have the same answer. The right tool for the right job. If you are screwing in screws you need a screwdriver. If you are hammering nails you need a hammer. If you want to buy hammers to screw screws it will probalby work, but with all the screws you bend it will cost more money and vice versa too.
There is a best selection of hardware and software under a given circumstance. There is no way to say that linux is cheaper than windows, period. There might be a guy who gets linux for free, but he runs weird hardware and would have to hire someone to write a driver. Windows might be cheaper for that guy. There might be an artist who already has a copy of photoshop for mac, but not for windows. A G5 might be cheaper for that guy. TOS can only be determined on a case by case basis.
The rule of right tool for the right job applies to so many slashdot stories I don't know if it's still worth posting it every time I see it. So next time someone says "my programming language is better than yours" or "this wireless protocol is better than that one" or "this software is cheaper/better than that one" point them here.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
"But at my company, all people do is read email, write email, browse the web (including use of my custom web application), and create documents"
Why even get Macs at all? Why not dumb web terminals? Most of that can be done online.
"Most people don't need, use or want a huge amount of software."
This excuse for "there's really hardly anything out there for the Mac" fails once you start to get creative. Then the "machine that only does every few things well" becomes useless.
Your statement sounds like marketing FUD. Everyone knows that more software means more versatility, and that is always better.
Most people don't want a huge amount of software. However, they want software that meets their needs. If there is a huge software base, there is a good chance they might find that application. If there is very little (the Mac situation), they are fat out of luck.
From my bad old days as a Mactinosh Systems Manager, I can attest to at least one thing... the only visits I made were to systems running QuarkXPress (which is... or at least was... notoriously breakable if you let graphic designers install anything) and Adobe Type Reunion. The general business apps (mostly Office, ironically) and internet apps just didn't create issues. I'm not really blaming the apps, since it was usually the result of an installation that overwrote a system extention. But, supporting PCs running QuarkXPress had way fewer issues. And, I don't think I've ever seen ATR on a PC.
Hold down shift... Extensions off... problem solved! Now, just make an empty system folder, reinstall Quark and move the new extenstions back to the production folder... presto!
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
The MS website has no figures to refute the claim that 'An Apple technician may cost twice as much, but he comes to see you half as often.'
Yeah, and the article was no figures to support that claim.
"In this coooorner, Anecdote, ladies and gentlemen! And in the opposite coooorner, Another Anecdote! Truly this will be the inconclusive fight of the century! Roarrr! Yeaaaaarrg!"
Sure Microsoft sucks, but it doesn't suck so much that I'm going to sacrifice honestly reasoning from real evidence for the sake of becoming a zealot able to bash Microsoft even in the face of no conclusive evidence one way or the other.
But, uh, thanks for offering me the chance.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
Apple hardware doesn't depreciate in value like windows stuff does. Companies could actually sell their old hardware, instead of chucking it in the garbage! However, I doubt most companies, when considering a hardware purchase, consider their next hardware purchase.
Since I can run in X11, Unix-based apps that number in the thousands, Windows 2000 in VPC, dozens of Mac OS 9 apps in Classic, and dozens of high and low-end apps in OS X with access to many thousands more, doesn't that mean that I use the Mac exactly as often as I intend making you completely full of shit and a hopeless, pathetic troll without a leg to stand on? (end rhetorical question mode)
"If there is very little (the Mac situation), they are fat out of luck."
I have hundreds of apps and thousands more available but only need and rely on a few dozen in OS X. I haven't yet lacked for anything ever to accomplish my job going back many years with previous Macs. I guess I'm fat in luck, huh?
No, the parent is right. I have no good software for my Mac, and neither do you.
It's about time we faced the cold, hard truth and got on with our lives. And to think, before I read the comments on this article, I thought OS X was a viable platform! If only his comments had been available sooner, I could've saved months of despair and just bought an eMachines instead of a Powerbook...
Wow. You're absolutely right. It turns out that all of the work I've churned out with Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Flash, Illustrator, Excel, Word, Powerpoint, Painter, InDesign, Toast Titanium, ImageReady, Fireworks, Freehand, Acrobat and a few hundred more was just a dream and now I'm sad.
o om =yes#zoom
http://www.cafeshops.com/macdailynews.4650005?z
The test is biased by the presence of Microsoft's Office software. Are their any similar studies for Mac sites where Office is not a factor? It seems to me that more than half of support questions usually involve application software, so I'd like to see a study where Microsoft Office was not a factor.
"Can there be a Klein bottle that is an efficient and effective beer pitcher?"
It's about time. I used to use a mac, and got tired of the meagre and pathetic software offerings available. It was fine, if you did very little with it.
"Probably not very well"
How the hell do you know? You're full of shit and I can say so with the same validity as your unfounded assumptions. How are same pro apps better on the PC than on the Mac?
How is Final Cut Pro better on the Mac than on the PC. Well, at least that one should be easy. Even for you.
What platform did Word and Excel come out on first?
"It turns out that all of the work I've churned out with .... Flash..."
Are you one of those responsible for garbaging up web sites with interminable bad animations that leave us scrambling for the "skip the useless intro" link?
Having flash programming available on a platform is NOT a strength.
Same thing with Acrobat. It is an inferior format, especially compared to HTML and even Word.
Depends on which version. The earliest were on the Mac first. The recent ones for years were done on the PC first. Microsoft ported them as part of the "let's keep the Mac platform alive so we don't look like a monopoly" strategy.
This is also the reason that Microsoft bniled out Apple a few years ago with $$$$ when Apple's "It's what it looks like, not what it does" design strategy almost did them in.
Microsoft ported them as part of the "let's keep the Mac platform alive so we don't look like a monopoly" strategy.
Without having Microsoft Word available, the Mac becomes nothing more than a prettier-looking Commodore Amiga.
At home, I use primarily Macs running OS X. (There is one PC running Linux.) Why? Well, no one pays me to work on my own computers, so I choose hardware and software that won't require me to fix it all the time.
Just an anecdotal data-point.
if you actually normalized their numbers by number of machines they support I suspect that the mac techs would win. Hard to say about the linux techs. Linux techs tend to support giant computer farms. They have huge problems getting them all working nicely but they arent running around putting out virus and worm fires every week or searching for some stupid third pary driver.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
what integrity do you have to begin with?
1 42 93296&fp=16&fpid=0
maybe you missed the article about the university that slashed support costs by switching to osx.
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=19
Doing it myself produces the best ease of use since I can simplify things to the point that every feature that exists is there because someone really needed it.
The custom software I write is a lot simpler than a typical accounting application, and much easier to use because it's far less complex.
My personal use of computers includes heavy use of motion video software and graphics, all of which is available in massive profusion on the Mac. There are more applications of this type available on the PC, but all the best ones are on the Mac.
That's not so true of accounting software, but it still exists on the Mac - there are just not the overwhelming number of choices you see in the PC world.
I'd take the lack of software in exchange for the lack of malware any day, since the malware decreases productivity so much and is almost impossible to get rid of.
At the end of the day, I think perceived cost and the herd instinct (Jenny uses a PC, so I should too) are the main things that cause people to select PCs over Macs.
D
I don't make Flash intros. They can be really annoying and bandwidth sucking. Just as anyone can make really stupid animated gifs. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. More like interactive Flash tutorials with the choice of HTML based tutorials instead on the web and on CD. PDF's have served us very well with an average of 47,000 downloads/month and almost no complaints for the past six years. We have HTML alternatives for the same data as well. All produced in OS X.
Trust me, my Wiha tools are FAR better than the "junk drawer" tools I lend to my neighbors. As both a Mac fan and woodworker, I've learned that it does not pay, in terms of time, hassle or quality of work to use "any old tool." If I'm shaving a piece off the bottom of a door, I'll grab a decent Stanely hand plane. For fine furniture, nothing beats my Lie-Nielsens, which at over 8x the cost, are well worth it.
Mac and Windows PCs do essentially the same things. There are a jillion more crappy games available for WIndows, but the good ones are on both. My G4 is an excellent gaming platform, plus it lets me talk to my friends, family and even get work done. My G4 Powerbook, even more so. I could do the same things my Dell, but the experience just isn't the same. Ergo, the Mac is a "better quality tool" for me.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
It's funny that this debate still rages on and I'm sure it will for some time to come. While some may say "ok, it's time to stop talking about it", I disagree. I'm sure the TCO race is much closer now than it was a decade ago when Macs were rather flaky and there's wasn't as much hard core business and research software for the Mac, thus making it rather useless for non-creatives and such.
Now for the sanity issue...time definitely has a value that nobody seems to take into account here. Same with sanity. For instance, with the PC you're constantly looking for drivers and DLLs that you need, that break, that disappear, that need to be updated, etc. With the Mac...it just WORKS. Any of you have a girlfriend that has a PC and it's constantly not working and YOU get all the abuse because of it? Then you suggest using a Mac because it simply works ("Look, all you gotta do is plug in your digital camera, and it works. And now you can view the pictures with no additional software. And check this out...you can burn them onto a CD now with no additional software..."). It really is that easy. I know if my gf had a PC, I would be a lot more sane from not having to listen to "great, I can't use my camera now because it changed the settings to HP instead of Sony and I can't find the software..."
Sanity...it's a good thing. Just as "goodwill" isn't a concrete number to put on a company's spreadsheet, it still has a value. Same with the value of time and sanity. Let's not forget that.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
No, there is not a lot of software in the Mac world
Prove it.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
In my tests, Quark XPress was stable if you didn't use Mac IE (or the Word filter distributed with XPress). Microsoft software put stuff in the Extensions folder that would make Quark crash. Often. Remove all MS stuff from the System Folder, no Quark crashes.
If I put on my tinfoil hat, I saw Mac IE as a trojan horse. MS specifically designed Mac IE to crash the program most Mac holdouts used. That way they would think the Mac was unstable, and switch to Windows.
So what is missing?
If there is a lack of overall interest in the platform, why does Microsoft Office exist for the Mac OS?
What exactly ARE these unmet software needs that "the majority" is clammoring for?
The latest first person shooter?
Your generalizations are completely unfounded.
I like microcars
>
> just so many specialized business and
> organization software packages out there for
> PC, with no Mac equivalents at all
>
Give me some examples if you don't mind.
Well, if those so many software 'packages' you're referrring to are so 'specialized', they are not software 'packages' at all. I'd rather call them business 'solutions'. And yes, OS platform may be part of the solution. But what's your point?
If there is a lack of overall interest in the platform, why does Microsoft Office exist for the Mac OS?
It exists to make sure that the Mac platform is viable. Since "See? it can run Office!" is the main claim to strength of Mac software, you can see how things would fizzle if it wasn't there.
Microsoft wants the Mac to stay afloat to help blunt court claims that it is a monopoly. This is why it bailed out Apple wish cash a few years ago, and this is why it make sure that such important software is available on the platform.
What exactly ARE these unmet software needs that "the majority" is clammoring for?
The latest first person shooter?
Specialized programs, general apps, what have you. From software specific to running a flower shop to file converting to hobbyist packages: there are apps for the PC for these, but not for the Mac. The Mac only satisfies its little niche and the "least common denominator". I wasn't even talking about games, but the situation is just as bleak in games.
Your generalizations are completely unfounded.
It is factual, and very well founded. Just take some time to compare the software catalogs. I've done it. It is one of the main reasons I ditched the Mac. For example, there were lots of terminal programs for the PC: only a few weren't crap. On the Mac, there were just a few, and none weren't crap.
We can go now to download.com, and look for programs to deal with midi files. You' find 213 for PC vs 17 for the Mac. Since there's a variety of possible things to do with MIDI files, you know there are going to be many things you can do with them with the PC that you just can't do with the Mac due to lack of software.
I wasn't even looking for an example that made the Mac look bad. This was just the first thing I tried.
Next thing I tried: Fishing? Fishing is not the most obscure hobby. You are out of luck using a Mac to enhance it: 15 titles for Pc, NONE for Mac.
With the Mac you are out of luck if you "Think different".
You're kind of screwed if you have an apple orchard and a Mac computer.
Download.com showed only one farm management program, and it was for the PC.
http://www.farmworks.com/ has several, none for the Mac. It will probably take hours before I find the first Mac program for the farm.
It is like this in all types of applications involving business and hobbies.
This is just one example: I checked it due to the apple-orchard connection. You'll find this "something on the PC, nothing on the Mac" situation to hold true for almost anything you try.
not only is that fix easy, it is impossible to do with windows. there is no 'extensions off' in windows. There are always two sides to the argument, but having mac be so dynamic in install/uninstall/extentsions and system folder 'stuff' is just awesome... no registry or similar crap to deal with.
The standard "Mac zealot" response when it is pointed out that the machine can't do something a PC can:
"but no one wants to do that!"
So, you have the schism between mac and PC: "we can't do that because no one wants to!" vs "You want to do THAT obscure task? Yes, we can handle it".
The Mac user might retort: "With Virtual PC, we can do all the PC stuff!".
That is like saying that a screwdriver can do all kinds of different things because you can tape a Leatherman to the handle of it.
You're right! There's no version of HotBar for the Mac.
This is sort of a joke, but it gets right to the point of Apple's historic TCO advantage.
If a user does happen to find and install a dodgy piece of software on Mac (at least with the classic OS) even the dummy users can figure out how to open Extention Manager and disable it. There's also tasks such as connecting to servers or network printers that are much easier for Mac End Users to accomplish.
No Help Desk Call -> Lower TCO.
So, it's not really that Macs break less often, but that user's can and do perform Self Support. (and often have to, because the IT Dept is semi-hostile to Macs.)
It's also one of the big reason that low-level techs (DOS/Novell guys) fought against Macs back in the day -- they knew if the things caught on, it would eliminate much of their jobs.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
plus, you might want to read the story here about the NY Vespa dealer that decided to go with Mac and Filemaker Pro rather than deal with the Windows software that was "offered" by the Manufacturer.
Why did they choose to use Macs and Filemaker Pro when an existing Windows package was available?
Here's a quote from the story:
It appears this shop looked very closely at TCO and even though a Windows package was available, they chose not to use it!
My wife works in Real Estate, she uses a Mac. She has no problems.
The other agents are constantly hit up to buy all these little Windows apps that will "help" them work better and more efficiently, but mostly these apps just line the pockets of the IT guy who is recommending them.
Her TCO by using her iBook is MUCH lower than that of the agent in the next station who was told she had to buy a $2000 sub-notebook in order to be competitive.
I'm not even going to mention all the time everyone ELSE wastes patching their Windows computers while my wife just keeps working.
"...Next thing I tried: Fishing? Fishing is not the most obscure hobby. You are out of luck using a Mac to enhance it: 15 titles for Pc, NONE for Mac.
No Fishing apps for the Mac? How sad.
I like microcars
No Fishing apps for the Mac? How sad
Yes. No one ever fishes anyway. (Yours is the predictable Mac defense when confronted with an "unusual" app found on the PC but not on the Mac: "no one does that anyway")
plus, you might want to read the story here about the
The "here" you mention is Apple's own web site. It is advertising copy. Sorry, if you are looking for the real dope about Microsoft, you don't go to Microsoft.com, and you don't go to www.apple.com for the real dope on that company.
Or, to put it in your terms, "No Vespa apps for the Mac? How sad."
I've owned a Mac since I was in high school in 1993. The only time I've ever needed Apple's help was when I got an early Powerbook G4 with an inverter that whined. It went back to Apple and was returned less than a week later.
In contrast, I've had to return my two most recent PCs numerous times due to heat issues. (And no, my work area isn't bad for heat... each time, it's been the CPU goo.)
Now, if you want to argue monitors, you'll have a much stronger point. I had several AppleVision 1710s blow out on me. Each time, a tech would come out and replace it. Apparently that model was cursed. I eventually got another just because I was tired of the smell.
That is Mac myth #3
"It doesn't matter that the platform does not do games. No one ever plays games anyway".
In fact, once you get past tiny niches like business, games, and home applications (no one ever does these things anyway), the Mac is a great platform!
Many businesses use Filemaker.
Linux will win. Apple will never get out of its tiny niche. Linux desktop totals are actualyl growing by leaps and bounds.
The reasons for this are obvious. You actually save money (compared to Windows), if you go Linux. You pay a lot more than Windows if you go Mac.
Linux runs on the same easy-to-get standard hardware that is a lot faster and costs a lot less than Apple hardware: and you can get it anywhere. Apple has intentionally limited places that sell Macs, which has gone a long way to making sure they are rare.
Finally, the Linux community has a "lets get it to work with everything everywhere" attitude that will ensure long term success. Apple's "closed system" attitude only makes sure that the niche computer stays a niche computer.
And there's nothing preventing said mac owner from picking up a copy of VPC if they're really stuck on using farmworks
Why not just get the PC in the first place? It will cost a lot less, run a lot faster, likely will have standard hardware interfaces missing on most Macs, and you won't have the kludge of running an emulator to get it to be useful.
The NewsFactor article it links to is a little bit more informative, but still falls along the same lines. It would be nice if we could *see* the results of these studies that they keep mentioning and were really able to get out the vague performance details they keep alluding to. Where is the real information?
Now while i don't work in the corporate scene, my experience with them shows me why they choose windows. Corporations don't really care about saving money, they care about making it look like they're saving money.
A recent engineering department of a corporation cost reduced a a bearing, that will save them $6 on every $30 bearing. While this sounds like a good idea, the new bearing fails about 3 times under the warrenty period while the old bearing lived well beyond the warrenty period.
Corporations wouldn't care if it costs $1000 per machine to set up and maintain for the first year, as long as they can say they're buying a $600 dell and saving a fortune.
I truely believe that macs have a lower TCO, as i support all the windoze machines in my house. The only work my mac requires is the occasional software update. Windows requires updates weekly, reinstallation every 6-12months with heavy use. And i'm probably going to have to reinstall my mothers copy of XP home and my dads XP pro, as both are becoming incredibly glitch in recent weeks.
Linux probably beats windows in the long term, but loses in the short term, which is the only place where businesses care about. Linux takes longer to install, setup and get running smoothly, especially in a custom environment.
Mac are far more universal, as you can run X11, OS9, windows via VPC in addition to the Native OS X apps. This does not mean that Macs do not have their downfalls. Internet browsing still lacks the 'snap' that IE has on Win2k. But as i don't see MS doing much to innovate their os, i will stick with mac.
Personally, when i have to use windows, i use Win2k as i find it much better in the long term for stability. But unless i have to use windows, i keep linux and os x running on everything i can, as my time is worth more to me than a few hundred dollars now.
My TCOF (Total Cost Of Fishing) would be much lower if I just used a computer program instead a rod and reel, line, hooks, bait, boats, beer......
I like microcars
Mac myth #10:
"No one needs specialized applications. A generic spreadsheet/DB app that requires the user to program something from scratch is sufficient"
Yeah sure. Let's tell Farmer Brown: "Get the Mac. It's much better. You'll have to learn database design in order to use it for your farm, but it's really worth it!"
The "There are no programs for this, but users can write programs if they need them" is a real cop-out, and ludicrous if you are claiming that Macs are easier to use and "just work".
The "no software for the Mac" rule holds true for....beer, actually.
There are a few programs for the PC for "beer" on download.com. Most are games, but one is a home brew manager.
And, you guessed it, there are 0 beer programs of any kind on download.com for the Mac.
I used to use a Mac. Before that, I used another "supposedly technically superior computer that really had much less software than the dominant one".
That's worse for sales than having them available in few places
I disagree. Not having them for sale, period is worst for sales.
Our lone Mac store opens at 10:00 AM and closes at 5:00. There are many other stores selling PC's. Several open at 7:00 and stay open until 9:00: that's double the sales hours.
Places selling PC's sometimes have double the hours of the Mac store, and there are 6+ times as many places selling them. All arguments about the comparative merits of the hardware and software aside, it is easy to see how the thing that only sells at one place with very limited hours is not going to sell as much.
Hey, Apple: Ship iMacs to Wal-Mart. That will change things.
These ports are still useful, which is why most PC's still ship with them.
They include these for free on PC's. You have to get a damn dongle (pay extra) to have this on a Mac.
You are using the tired old argument that the Mac is somehow better because it is missing hardware/capabilities. This is quite bass-ackwards.
The "There are no programs for this, but users can write programs if they need them" is a real cop-out...
Really? Well that's funny when you consider that probably 90% of those Windows-only vertical market apps you were crowing about didn't exist until someone who needed one cranked it out in VB and then decided to start selling it.
I don't know how this can be debatable.
Everything that I have heard and read show that Macs are cheaper when factoring in TCO. In addition to less support (how many times have heard "...my company has 1000 PCs with 100 PC support techs and 2000 Macs with 3 Mac support techs...") and longer lasting hardware ("...we have a SE/30 that we still use as a mail server...") to increased productivity ("...virus? What stinking virus?...It just works!)
Here's a few examples I found when googling for info on Mac vs. Windows TOC:
And there are just so many other ones that I grow tired of providing the information
When it came to my own personal computer, I bought a Mac, just because I don't want to make support@home! Obviously I use nearly the same tools I could run on a dual boot Windows-Linux PC (DVDPlayer/VideoLan, iTunes, jEdit, MsOffice, JBoss-PHP-Apache, tcsh, Mozilla/kHtml). But it works find, nothing more than drag/drop to install an application, no OS upgrade issue, a perfect statefull firewall included). In two years, I had no system or software issues. When came the day I wanted a laptop, I took another Mac, because I liked the first one, because it was cheaper than the same class of computer from Dell.
I understand I overvalue my $/hour (I'm a bit more expensive than a 1st level support guy), but what can be compared to nearly $0? I helped some friends with their Macs (switchers, newcomers) and they were amazed how simple it was, how useless I could be for them (I love that because phone support at 10PM isn't my preferred friendliness).
I also worked at my office with Macs (Os9), and of course when a user had a problem, and the support team answered, "oh, it's a Mac", they called me. It's not a statistical study (5 samples), but each problems were solved in 5 minutes and were caused by "not connected" or "not switched on the VLAN", things that can exist on a PC and that really should not happened. The "no-support" reason was always "I don't know macs" which shouldn't happen with MacOsX (open a Terminal, remember your Unix for beginners 1st class, solve the problem). Still the $0 comparison.
With OsX, I believe there is a really good office alternative:
- a real user/admin isolation
- a realistic user rights limitation (you can install an funny screen saver with no possible impact on other users/ system files). Yes, don't tell me you plan to use the "no rights to the user" policy on windows, it's just not the job of sysadmins to forbid everything.
- a good multitask behavior (I'm ripping a DVD right now and don't feel any slowlyness on a 2 years old entry-level computer)
- all the classical usefull applications (Mozilla, Office, Mail, Calendar, Images management...) plus all the open-source world apps/tools.
- a wide adoption of standards and a real work on Windows connectivity
But a lot of people just don't compare anymore, are just too scary of innovation/new solutions (which is a real problem concerning technology). Too many people a ready to lie by not comparing Windows/Linux/Mac/Other before saying to the boss "here is the way". The scariest thing is the best way is certainly somewhere between those choices.Isn't it the entire "keep with the standards to keep the choice in your hands" lesson in first year of CS grade?
ClaudeBBG
"Clones were sold. They didn't have them. Customers didn't want them"
The clones did have the standard pre-USB ports. This was before USB dominance. The clones sold quite well, especially at the high end, where they cost a lot less.
We have ONE example so far of software that it will not run without the emulator
Every one of the numerous examples of "software for PC but not Mac" is met with either "users don't want to do that" excuses or "oh, but we must not count games, business applications, or home user programs"
Really? Well that's funny when you consider that probably 90% of those Windows-only vertical market apps you were crowing about didn't exist until someone who needed one cranked it out in VB and then decided to start selling it.
Amazing. Developers making programs and selling them to other users so they don't have to bother to program the program themselves. Outrageous! I guess that is a "problem" when you have people actually developing software solutions for a platform. It is really a strength of the Mac world that it is not bedeviled by people actually writing programs for it.
Yes, I do admit that these programs "didn't exist" until someone wrote them. That is the way it goes in the PC world. I hang my head in shame. I would even go as far as to admit that it is not 90%, but a shocking 100% of programs, that were, as you describe, written because (shocking!) there was a need and market for them!
Mac myth: #23: "it is bad when people develop lots of programs for a platform".
Right, because that $300 copy of photoshop makes the difference between a $1200 and $2500 machine. Nice math.
Also, the problem with your analogy, is that all these tools perform the SAME JOB, largely. So it's basically asking which screwdriver is better. Certainly, in some cases, you'll have to buy a Phillips head, because your shop deals only with Philips screws. But if you have the choice of platforms, you can still compare them - screwdrivers or computers. So these stories are fine.
And yes, I own a powerbook.
Macs used to be built like a brick and almost never broke down. This is not quite the case anymore. To drive costs down Apple has used normal and not above average parts in its recent computers. I have a 10 year old Mac that still runs like a top (it has not been used for a while and is due for a case mod!).
Still having used both Macs and PCs since the day they came out I can say for a fact, even now, that a PC will always have more problems than a Mac. The reason is that the PCs have even narrower profit margins and use even cheaper, no name parts. Even though I build my own PCs I still usually have to replace the power supply every year. Also Windows built in disc repair utilities leave much to be desired. So the time spent maintaining the PC over the Mac is much, much greater.
quote found here:
University of Wollongong
In 1997, Gistics, Inc. published the following*:
Macintosh users:
spend 38 fewer hours per year 'Futzing" with files
save US $4,950 annually on support and training
use more tools (14.3 versus 8.3)
Save US $2,211 in three-year cost of ownership
Earn US $5.01 more per hour
Earn US $12.22 more revenue per hour of labor
Create US $14,550 more profits per year per person
Earn 32 percent more net profit per project and
Achieve platform payback in 7.2 months (versus 13.9)
*Page 56 Vaughan, T. 1998. Multimedia, Making it Work, Osborne McGraw Hill, Berkeley
Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development. (Wilde)
So, I have successfully hammered screws in before. But, how the hell do you screw a nail in?
No, the parent is right. I have no good software for my Mac, and neither do you.
Either you are trolling or clueless. In the consumer space, I see the "best-of-breed" software for just about every category of applications.
Yes, I am a cross-platform person, with a rack full of software for Macs (at home), and access to all the Windows software you can shake a stick at (at work).
cheers- raga
You know what, I've had a box with WinXP on it, which was dual boot with linux. While Win2K and XP are far better in many ways than previous versions of windows, I still spent way too much of my time tweaking the hell out of it to keep it running efficiently. It seemed like weekly I was spending some serious time tweaking either one, or every month or so I was saying screw it, it'll take less time to just reinstall all this crap than fix it properly. Well, guess what, I've got a PowerBook with Panther on it and I haven't spent ANY time tweaking the OS on the command line, with utilities, or anything else and my last install was in November to upgrade the machine to Panther. It just works, no messing around, no tweaking. On top of that, there's no spyware and it doesn't get slower over time. I now forget the last time I rebooted my machine, it doesn't crash!
OK, I've got my rant out. My name is James, and I'm a member of the Cult of the Apple.
In the consumer space, I see the "best-of-breed" software for just about every category of applications.
Great. Now I'm all confused again. Here I was dismantling my PowerBook for parts, and I figured I'd give slashdot one more looksie, and now you're telling me that Macs are a viable platform?
No, no. I'm done...I can't be bothered with all this critical thinking. Everyone I know uses Windows, so it must be better. It's time to switch back and start capitalizing MAC.
omg lol 1 buttn mouse is teh sux
Ahhhh...that feels better. Anyways, anyone want to buy a TiBook? It hasn't been used much, except for Photoshop.
Anyways, anyone want to buy a TiBook?
Thanks, got an AlBook. But I do know someone who has been lusting for one of those "one-button doh-dads" - but cant afford it (even from ebay...wife/2kids/laid off/...yada yada...). So if the price is close to free, hey, you don't even have to look far for a buyer!
cheers- raga
I am joking, of course! ;)
I'd never part with this thing!
Really? I'd say it bodes rather well. With OS X, I can run almost any *NIX app, any OS X app, and almost any OS 9 app within the native environment. If this does not meet my needs, I then have the option of installing a proven and powerful emulator which is now currently being developed by the very people who have access to the windows source. All of this on one machine.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
*ahem*. yes there is. The superior windows "Safe Mode" not only boots up without some extensions, but returns the system to a simple safe mode bootable on any hardware any monitor. Can't say that for just booting with extensions off
Not that you can boot with extensions off under OSX anyway
QuarkXPress (which is... or at least was... notoriously breakable if you let graphic designers install anything)
Was? When? As far as I can remember, Quark has been really stable on Mac. Sure, there have been some issues, but nothing that's "notorious."
I've got to say it (because no-one else has)...
:P
BSD/Darwin is dying/Apple is beleaguered*.
iqu
* delete as applicable
Since the Mac runs hardly any software compared to a PC, you are going to use the Mac a lot less, and of course you will get fewer tech problems.
:s
There really are some worrying moderators out here - at the time of writing, this wonderful piece of insight has been awarded 30% Insightful. Hate Macs all you like, but it is positively childlike logic...
iqu
Then there is the Total Cost of Sanity that many have mentioned. The Macs just work, but more importantly they are pre-installed. At a conference spanning several days, the first day and a half it looked any participant with a note book computer was runing either an iBook or a PowerBook. By the end of the week the ratio of Mac to Windows had droped to about 1:1 -- the Windows users had averaged about 20 minutes each with a technician to get the wireless cards working.
Mac just work, but more importantly they are pre-installed. The common Linux distros are very easy to install and maintain since about 4 years ago, especially compared to Windows. But having OS X work out of the box beats even Linux and really creams Windows. When you start talking about corrective maintenance, then you couldn't pay me to put up with the garbage that I've had to watch Windows technicians deal with. However, the end user, not the technician is the real benefactor of OS X. They can use the computer for their job rather than having to call twice a week about problems which prevent daily activities.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Actually, you can. Hold the Shift key down while starting OS X, and it also starts up in a Safe Mode. It also runs FSCK before you get to the login screen. I do that sometimes after a kernel panic or other problem just to make sure the hard drive is alright. But I never log in that way, I just restart normally when it's done checking.
"Common Sense Ain't" -Unknown
It is amazing but true. Macs run hardly any software, and there is also a lot less hardware to plug into the things, so there will be a lot less "how do I get this to work?" questions.
For better listing, try VersionTracker. Even then, some really great sharewares are not listed there.
Yeah, that's it. There are millions of shareware programs for the Mac, but all the companies are "MS stooges" and won't list them at all.
The bailout came at a time when Apple's cash flow was pretty bad. It did keep them from dying.
"It is difficult to ignore the implication of Apple's accepting a bailout from its competitor in order to stay in business"
(from http://www.netaction.org/msoft/survey.html Their motto is "don't be soft on Microsoft". Hardly MS stooges)
"Don't forget that it was Microsoft's "partnership" / bailout of Apple a few years back that kept Apple afloat long enough to launch the first iMacs."
(Morning Beat News)
There are plenty of other references.
everyone loves to say macs just work....but in the business world that's definately not the case. the office apps don't open docs properly on the mac. don't have the same featureset. the web pages out there that corporate people use don't work properly in safari or IE or mozilla or firebird or whatever the hell else browser you wanna use. there is no perfect interoperability between fonts and documents in word and other apps. the adobe apps still crash a lot on graphic designers. the move to OSX set back all software vendors a lot. and so i don't think the mac will be a viable solution to interoperate with pc's or corporate environments for at least 3 years.
Kenny Sabarese
www.kennysabarese.com
This exact question came up last week over at macweb.ciu10.com. Seems like there is a lot of data regarding desktop TCO, but not too much for servers. There are a few comments, but so far no hard numbers. Some posted about M$ getting you with CAL's for everything, others commented on M$ and virus's ect... The site is geared for K12 education, but we'd love to know what /. readers have to say on the subject.
In seconds I found these seven to ten (three unix) titles.. MacUpdate also had BeerStack and BeerMeister.
The real question is, what platform does Fritz Maytag use?
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
I've never owned a Mac, so I'd like to ask a question. If what you say is true, does that mean that I can install an app simply by copying the folders that correspond to it from one Mac to the next? And how many folders are we talking about here?
Just because the Extron Button Label Generator doesn't work on the Mac does not mean my staff should all have to use Windows. 99% of them do the things that can be done on Mac just as well, if not better than Windows (or Linux or Solaris, for that matter).
VERY limited examples of providers of Mac software to your specific areas of interest:
Business-oriented - Microsoft, Intuit, AEC, Nametschek
Development tools - GNU, Borland, Sun, IBM
Databases - MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sybase, IBM, Oracle
Except for extremely limited examples of very specific software (like turning in certain IRS forms), platform is irrelevant (which makes their platform-specificness all the more appaling).
Mac is a better tool for the things that most users do most of the time.
There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
AC++
are eclipsed or lessened by working in a mostly PC environment?
.doc files because I'm on a mac, I can't open .doc files because I MS Office is expensive and I don't like the interface. I don't use it on my PC either; if people just figured out to send files in a free format, I wouldn't have a problem on either system.
Mac OS hasn't cared whether I name my picture fluffy_bunny.jpg or "I saw the cutest bunny the other day!!!" for the over ten years I've been using it, but I still remember to stick file extensions after everything I make because I *know* at some point I'm going to have to send it to a windows user.
Setting up a small appletalk network involves two things: plugging in a cable (to the auto-configuring ethernet port that doesn't require crossover cables for direct connections that every mac has had for the last five years and I still can't find on a PC), and flipping two checkboxes: "Turn appletalk on" and "Turn file sharing on." Yet if I want to transfer files or play a networked game, I still need to setup an ad hoc TCP/IP network and figure out how to set up a workgroup on my friend's system: I've honestly managed to setup windows file sharing on my mac twice as fast as I could on my windows box.
And I can't open
I have hours of examples of favorite mac features that I almost never get to use because no one else I know uses a mac. Almost all reasons to use windows, from initial price to software availability, stem from the same source; everyone else has it, and you're going to have to deal with everyone else at some point.
That says it all for me. I recently switched to Macs for that exact reason. I spent several years running linux (as a desktop for personal productivity), and before that OS/2 with a brief side trip running Windows (that didn't last very long, was way too unstable compared to what I was used to). When you count the time I spent adminning/fixing/configuring other operating systems verses what I spend on my powerbook, Apple and OS/X are hands down winners for me.
Linux is unix training wheels, while BSD *is* unix.
Perhaps they should buy 3D Realms and have Duke Nukem Forever as a Macintosh exclusive
:)
I can hear the screams of anguish form here...
cheers
Sara
a Macgrrl in an NT World
Wal-Mart? If they treated Apple like some of their other manufacturers, they'd be trying to make Apple cut corners to reduce their prices.
Hm.... anyone remember the Macintosh Performa series and Sears? I for one would rather not have a retailer dictating to a company what to build and how to build it. Has anyone ever seen that actually result in better quality?
Linux is unix training wheels, while BSD *is* unix.
There is some merit in most arguments.
Would it be too inconvenient to point out that Apple has recently been forced to launch a reimbursement program for the thousands of iBook owners whose logic boards have failed?
Or that, quite recently, it chose to settle a lawsuit brought by G3 owners who had terrible performance under OS X?
Or that, in the last few months, it has rushed out a battery replacement policy for iPod owners suffering from Neistat's Syndrome?
Apple makes good machines. If TCO is measured in terms of headaches, Apple beats Windows hands down. "Doesn't break," however, is not a claim that anyone would take seriously.
I'm not sure if it's a universal slang Mac term, but we alway used to refer to manually rebooting our Mac's as "pongin" them because of the cheesy noise they make when they power up - PONG!
My sister lives a thousand miles and 2 times zones away and has had an old PC running Win98 since, well.. '98.
Guess who was constantly called for late night at home tech support. Of course, I haven't had a Win98 box since, well... '98 - I develop for Win2K etc at work. So I would have to help her navigate around Win98 from memory, since MS loves to change things...
Anyway, I finally wized up an bought an 17" flat panel iMac for home use last year (which I love). And I spent months trying to convince my sister to do the same, using arguments like "It just works!", and "It will be easier for me to help you, because that's what I have at home"
Finally she did. And boy has it been easier to support. First off, she calls way lest often (at least about computer woes), Secondly, when she does, I can sit down at my iMac, and easily walk her through whatever the issue was. Usually she asks "How do I..." rather than "Such and such is broken..."
After having her iBook for months, she called with a problem - she had inserted a CD of unsupported format into her iBook and couldn't get it to eject it (Mac's don't have an hardware eject, only via software) There may be an easier way (Zealots feel free to point it out), but my suggestion to her was to "pong" the iBook and hold down the mouse button when it boots up, to force a media eject. (I think it's the mouse button, again Zealots do your worst)
And so, to the point.
She didn't know how to reboot her machine, she had had the thing for months and never once turned it off, let alone reboot it - it just worked! You just close the cover when you're done, open it when you come back, it's that easy.
she called with a problem - she had inserted a CD of unsupported format into her iBook and couldn't get it to eject it (Mac's don't have an hardware eject, only via software)
That's just one of the design flaws: obscure GUI commands to eject media, instead of eject buttons. This design blunder makes the Mac harder to use, there is no way to deny.
The older Macs replaced the floppy eject button with a tiny pinhole. I remember the Mac labs at colleges where there were always several bent paperclips next to the keyboard. Mac disk eject is what happens when someone in an ivory tower decides to put in a bad feature even though it is bad idea.
Word and Excel are "pro" applications?
...
What's your profession exactly? That's just hilarious
Word and Excel are "pro" applications?
...
What's your profession exactly? That's just hilarious
Must be any professional who uses a Mac. The Mac zealots time and again keep saying "A Mac is better than a PC for business use, because it has Word and Excel and that's all you'll ever need."
Then post it elsewhere, and don't click that "reply" button to my posts, because that generally implies a "response."