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Xbox 2 SDK Released On Mac G5?
Espectr0 writes "The Inquirer reports rumors, courtesy anonymous sources, that Microsoft has released the Xbox 2 SDK to select videogame developers, and they are using 'dual Apple Power Mac G5 systems running a custom Windows NT Kernel.' This ties up with earlier rumors which mention that the XBox 2 will be powered by the IBM chip, and ATI will be providing the video chip." The report also notes: "Interestingly, the SDK apparently also features an Apple logo on a side bar within the application."
I think the use of the Apple G5 systems with a funny NT kernel running indicate that the XBox2 is going to have a lot more in common with the Apple G5 than the common PC. Afterall, there just aren't a lot of PC motherboards in circulation built for the IBM PowerPC chips.
Clearly, the final specs for the XBox2 aren't set in stone. So, since they can't deliver any XBox2 motherboards because they're not exactly fully designed yet, Apple's a reasonable place to turn for successful implementation of the IBM processor chips. It's likely that the Apple logo within the software was part of the price Microsoft had to pay for Apple's assitance in supplying a little help in writing that NT-on-PowerPC kernel...
Why would it mean anything. It seems its just a development environment for the Xbox, and considering that it seems the Xbox 2 will have no backwards compatibility why would this environment help in porting, when they have turned their back on intel architecture for the platform. Just because it has a NT kernel doesn't mean anything, remember NT ran on PPC as well as Alpha and Intel when NT was actually called NT.
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
I'm really not surprised. I mean, Apple has no stake in the videogame market, so why not help out someone (even Microsoft) and get a little bit of extra money? Microsoft would find a way to do it eventually, so its not like if Apple didn't help it would be any sort of blow against MS.
I think we should wait for an official release from any of the companies involved.
Until then the SDK is just Vaporware.
I think I think, therefore I think I am.
I would say probably nothing - comparing running XBox SDK on G5's to porting windows apps to OSX is an apples to oranges kind of deal. If you're talking linux x86... shouldn't be too hard to port to OSX anyway.
[Z?]
This may be why all those new G5s where being rolled into the microsoft offices some months ago. The guy who took photo's of it and posted it on his web site got fired for taking the photo's because of what microsoft management called "security concerns". I can't seem to find the original story.
Holy Jesus, you people are misinformed.
August 6, 1997- Microsoft agreed to purchase $150 million in non-voting Apple preferred stock. Note that it was NON-VOTING stock-- so essentially this was just a goodwill investment in Apple. Microsoft was required to hold the stock for at least 3 years before selling. Another clause of this investment was that Microsoft was to continue to produce Macintosh products, including all new versions of the Microsoft Office product, for a period of five years. In exchange, Apple would make Internet Explorer the default web browser on Macs, and not sue the living hell out of Microsoft.* Microsoft has since sold all of this stock, at a nice profit, I might add. This agreement expired in August 2002, and since then MS has occasionally made noise about discontinuing Mac Office. Apple is also no longer bound to the terms of this agreement, so expect to see IE vanish from new Macs as soon as Apple's Safari browser goes 1.0.
* Strong rumors from several sources indicate that the 1997 deal was the public portion of a settlement made after Apple discovered substantial patent and/or copyright infringment by MS in Windows. Word is that there was a meeting between senior Apple and MS officials where Apple laid out the evidence and an ultimatum. Personally, I think there is some credibility to this, as Microsoft rarely if ever does anything that could be deemed 'nice,' especially to a competitor. There is, however, another school of thought that says Microsoft was only acting in their own self-interest, propping up Apple so they would have a competitor to point to when the antitrust thing really built up some steam. I question the use of the term 'propping up,' as Apple had a few billion in the bank at the time and did not need the $150M, and the government would have realized that.
Not to be pendantic, but wouldn't it be more of a hardware abstraction? I mean, it's rumored to be a G5 chip, so it wouldn't make much sense to emulate the same chip...
Since it's not going to be out for another 18 months, Microsoft's counting on a Moore's Law-compliant doubling of all of the technologies involved at the same price point they're at now...
Besides, everything gets cheaper when you buy it in bulk...
I'd guess they made the choice for heat production reasons. The XBox is quite large for a game console and it still has heat problems. Using a smaller, cooler chip would help make this more of a real console. Intel is still having problems with its Prescott processor and is also currently trying to reposition itself with respect to the 64-bit transition. AMD doesn't have a low-heat CPU available either, though they're otherwise better positioned in the marketplace.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out, though. Getting Windows to run on a new architecture will likely take more than a new kernel.
One of the reasons that the Xbox was so easily turned into an amazing home entertainment center/emulation station, was that it was basically a PC. Everyone in the world uses PCs, and the software was easily ported, and the hardware easily understood. Microsoft will _not_ make the same mistake again.
You have to remember that the PPC only has about 1% of the global computing marketshare. It is a platform that is always the _last_ to get any homebrew apps, like ports of utilities to transfer or unpack xbox isos for instance. There just arent enough people on Mac. If you take the 1-2% of the global computer base, then take the fraction of a percent of that which are people capable of writing programs, and then the fraction of them who have time to make a mac app to interface a game console etc.. I think you're left with 3 people, and from what I'm told, they live in Sweden.
As if switching to a virtually unknown hardware platform wasn't enough, flash memory maker M-Systems announced on Wednesday that it has signed a contract to provide storage products for future versions of the Xbox.. It looks like they are contemplating ditching hard drives altogether. I mean it was Microsofts using common components that allowed people to simply unplug the Seagate 9GB and plug in a 120GB to store games, video.. anything.
I think we will all be surprised by what M$ is cooking. Why in the world would they forsake things like backwards game compatibility, take time to tweak and make an NT kernel on PPC, apparently ditch the HD.. They are hatching a plan, and it involves linux and homebrew *NOT* running on xbox2.
You forget that MS now owns VPC, which makes running X86 stuff (Xbox) pn Power5 somewhat easier than before. So, backward compatability through an emulation layer isn't out of the question.
There are 1.1... kinds of people.
Bít, zabít, jen proto, ze su liska!
what about the success of the gamecube? (or n64, or snes)
There are all sorts of rumors flying. Will it have a hard drive? How many chips? Two? Three? Will it use Cell technology? MS is buying and forming alliances with emulator companies, different chip manufacturers, that flash memory company. Let's face it, MS hasn't said anything. These are all rumors. I'd bet that all these rumors are just a way to throw the competition off what your real console is. Just like Sony claims their system is a supercomputer or Saddam bought all of them in Iraq to guide missiles. MS is hiding their console design while scaring their competitors and keeping Xbox2 in the minds of the public.
So, yeah, you're right to degree, but there's still emulation to be done here.
Paul Lenhart writes words!
Consoles are a cutthroat market. The margins on hardware aren't razor thin, they are actually negative at least in the beginning and almost non existant after that. Also, it matters to be the biggest baddest, best looking, etc. So it is to the advantage of console makers to go with whoever will give them the cheapest stuff with the best performance.
I would bet that IBM is probably going to sell the 970s for X-box 2s at close to cost. For them it's not a money making move, it's a publicity move. As of late IBM's chip division has kind been seen only as a high-end server/supercomputer thing. Thier midrange market is almost non existant and their embedded market has been shrinking. Well the 970 is a serious midrange contender and I'm sure they want people to know it. Being the chip in one of the big 3 consoles certianly goes a long way for that.
No one's turned the GameCube into a Mac.
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
This news is especially interesting in light of the conspiracy theories around the Xbox. Basically the idea is that the Xbox is a testbed/honeypot for palladium.
.NET gaining ground, Windows apps will become cross-platform easily. It makes sense that MS would want its APIs to dominate on all hardware platforms. They don't really need an alliance with Intel anymore.
What if instead of choosing PPC for the Xbox2 and porting Windows, they first chose to port Windows. Perhaps Xbox2 is a testbed for Windows-on-PPC, subsidizing the cost for writing the port through console licensing and mitigating the risk that PPC won't achieve wide adoption. The payoff is being able to continue to market Windows as a standard platform for both the desktop and server if PPC gains wider adoption.
With
For great justice.
Also, don't forget this is from The Inquirer. Definitely not the most credible news source in the world.
They could easily port Windows NT (by that I mean the line including 2k, XP and 2003 server) to a Mac if they wanted. Windows NT was made to be portable from the start, as are most micro-kernel type OSes. NT 4 was actually available for x86, Alpha (Digital's 64-bit processor), PPC (IBM systems, not Macs) and MIPS. They moved to only x86 since sales weren't worth it on the other platforms.
The reason you don't see it for Macs is monetary and licensing. Apple wouldn't be happy with them if they tried (might even wind up in court) and there'd be no economic incentive since a large majority of Mac users use Mac to NOT use Windows. Also, software would still have to be recompiled for the new processor. So it's not like there would be a huge library of apps out there.
That was the problem with NT on the Alpha. It was NT in every way, and all the included software worked great and very fast. However, there was very little effort on the part of software companies to release Alpha versions of their apps. There was an emulator out there that allowed x86 apps to execute on Alpha, but as with all emulators it was slow. Given that speed was the allure of the Alpha, most people elected to use the cheaper x86 if NT was what they needed.
Michael Hanscom almost blew the XBox2 story wide open back in October.
Remember when Microsoft fired that guy because he mentioned that they bought G5s. Too bad he didn't know anything about why they bought them.
Ok, folks, this has nothing to do with apple as it is an ibm chip.
Microsoft doesn't give a shit about burning bridges, because AMD, Intel and NVidia will all break their backs rebuilding them. How much weight does it carry if Ballmer calls up 'one of the gang' and says 'hey, buddy, because of some problems in your drivers we identified, your hardware will never work on Windows again'?
There's only been one console with backwards compatibility. It was a fluke. It may have pushed a few sales, but I doubt it was the defining element of the PS2's dominance. Further, how many purchases of XBox 2's are going to hinge on the massive (sic) library of wonderful XBox games?
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I can't disagree with the specifics of what you're saying, because I've never heard that story. (I'd be interested in where you got the information, though, because I've tried to follow it pretty closely.) Either way, though, the person I was replying to was completely wrong in claiming that MS owns a piece of Apple today.
(Of course, the people who modded me as off-topic presumably didn't see the post I was replying to, because it's currently at -1.)
You wouldn't pay much more than $300 for a videogame system, but... how much would you pay for a box that:
- plays next generation videogames
- plays DVDs (HD-DVD maybe?)
- acts as a PVR
- plays MP3/WMA music, with a nice on-screen browser
- acts as a server or client to distribute media
to all the TVs/stereos in your house (they are already doing this with XBOX and Windows MCE)
This is the goal of the XBox2. It is not just another videogame system. It is Microsoft's next attempt at becoming a real player in the consumer electronics market.
They said Xbox made it easy to port from PC. Now comes the interesting point, Xbox 2 may make it easy to port to Mac, maybe it'll help the Mac gaming scene out
You have very selective memory. Remember the Dreamcast? That came out way before the PS2. "High-quality third party support from the beginning"? Name one absolutely must-have launch title. The PS2 launch, by comparison to every other console this generation, was an absolute disaster. The must-have games didn't start to come to the system until a year later -- conveniently, just before the GC and XBox launched. But the first year for the PS2 was pretty damned lousy.
I'm still waiting to run Linux from CD on an unmodified XBOX.
That IBMs specs for the successor to the parent of G5 PPC chips are that it consumes MAJORLY less power for a given clockspeed. (er, I dunno, from memory something like 30% of the power)
So as a long-term plan, this is A Smart Move.
The x86 crew are producing ever more power-hungry CPUs with each generation, on the other hand IBM is busily rolling out technology which goes in the opposite direction while still beating x86 architecture CPUs even with both hands tied behind its back.
Think in terms of them bringing out the xBox3, same basic platform (PPC) 30% of the power needs, significantly faster CPU overall. The time to migrate architectures is *now*, before all the *new features* (ie PC replacement type functionality) have been developed.
Who knows, perhaps one day we'll see the return of MS Supported OS and Apps on PPC?
IBM scores being the reborn center of The PC. MS scores as they have multiple architecture support. Apple might even score, and sell you a Mac you could load Windows on (yeah, there are all kinds of kinky people out there with some of the weirdest fetishes).
Intel and AMD? Well they'll need to pickup their CPU design skills and put out a quality processor instead of beating each other around the head and shoulders with market-speak.
Sounds to me like this sux for nobody.
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
MS is trying to make the best game system all around. They learned a lot about it from the first try. Of course we will try to mod it but they will do there best to prevent it. What really bugs me is what happen to the days when they really pushed the hardware to do better. Like the NES it came a long way from SMB 1 to SMB 3. I would love to see them do that with the XBox and PS2. I feel like I just bought my systems, and now its time for new ones...
...as it's been previously stated, Microsoft already makes programs for the Mac. They own Connectix, for crying out loud. Therefore, G5s at Microsoft isn't really that shocking or out of the ordinary. They probably got mad at the guy because they were afraid the pictures would start to fuel conspiracy theories...like this one.
There is still the DirectX API and all... but with PPC Wine working or just even winelib that may not be a big problem after all.
I wonder if Transgaming will be getting even more OSX game porting business.
Yeah, because that Xbox1 emulator scene on the PC is just booming... ;-)
Not the least either. Their sources have been improving, and afaik they were the first to report on Yamhill ~2 years ago.
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For some reason I don't think Microsoft is very dedicated to providing backward compatibility. The phrase "deprecated feature" doesn't exist within Microsoft.
For instance, last week I went to create a volume set in Windows 2000 server with a basic disk. Oh, BTW that feature was removed from W2k. They replaced it with dynamic disks. I was thinking I could upgrade to a dynamic disk and then create the volume set or expand the volume. Nope, not when you upgrade to a dynamic disk. You can't do shit with it after upgrading. You must wipe the disk and go dynamic from the start. Now that's an enterprise class operating system...
If Sun or Oracle were to mark a feature deprecated, it'd be about three full versions before they'd pull it.
It didn't exactly have the greatest competition. The SNES was four years old, and the Saturn wasn't doing that well. The N64, coming out a year later didn't do anything the PS2 couldn't, and the Dreamcast was still 3 years away.
Granted, Sony worked really hard and surprised everyone, but it was hardly a tough market at the time.
Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
The emulation of VPC is ok for sheer number crunching apps like Photoshop or whatever, especially if your running a nice pair of G5s. But it doesn't play well with your video hardware, which you may realise is a big factor in frames-per-secong when your playing games. If you messs around with your VPC set up you can see that a 2d graphics card is also being emulated, your own hardware isn't listed.
Eh? A G5 will thrash any Pentium clock for clock you retard. A 1.6ghz G5 could easily emulate a Celeron 733 or whatever the xbox has.
IIRC, it's actually going to be three PowerPC 976 CPUs at 65nm, which will be dual core making it effectively six. See here. I imagine it will be quite a female dog programming to take full advantage of all of them.
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.