Metroid II, Prime Get New Speed Run Records

Re:Idiot by feidaykin · 2004-02-29 09:58 · Score: 4, Interesting

Indeed, it is for the GB, not the NES. Here's proof.

Perhaps this record breaker guy was far too busy actually playing the game to notice it was on the GB, heh.

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"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking

Re:Idiot by fireduck · 2004-02-29 10:02 · Score: 1

considering that the link to the speed run specifically mentions it as on the game boy (and being the only black and white metroid), i think it was the submitter, and not the record breaker who was mistaken.

(the recorder breaker used the game boy player attachment for the GC to output the video.)

Re:Idiot by simoniker · 2004-02-29 10:06 · Score: 4, Informative

No, actually it was the editor trying to explain what platforms the games were on who goofed. Doh. My apologies to the submitter, it's fixed now.

Funny Suprnova just put a bunch these up by Stubtify · 2004-02-29 10:08 · Score: 4, Interesting

Super Mario Bros (NES) completed in 5:08

Metroid (NES) completed in 17:18 by ...

Zelda (NES) completed in 31:29 by Mi...

Castlevania (NES) completed in 12:23...

Rockman (NES) completed in 21:53 by ...

Re:Funny Suprnova just put a bunch these up by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 13:07 · Score: 0

oh no! Don't die on me at 92% bittorrent! Someone make another seed quick!
Re:Funny Suprnova just put a bunch these up by superpulpsicle · 2004-02-29 14:44 · Score: 1

Is there any other ways to download this besides from bit tolerant? It'd be great to download these straight as an avi.
Re:Funny Suprnova just put a bunch these up by Eivind · 2004-03-01 00:02 · Score: 1

get bittorrent. Seriously. It works well, and in this case it's a tool very well suited for the job.

Silly Question by Guppy06 · 2004-02-29 10:13 · Score: 4, Interesting

"the Metroid II (NES) 100% is now set at 1hr 12mins,"

Aside from "Medroid II is a GB game," how do you know you have 100%? Super Metroid was the first game to bother keeping track of your completion rate and I have yet to find complete maps of the game anywhere (even the ones published in Nintendo Power left stuff out). You can't even go by the number of e-tanks you have since there are more in the game than you can use.

Also, while on the subject, am I the only person who has trouble believing people who claim to get a 100% completion rate in Super Metroid in less than 1:30?

Re:Silly Question by Radix37 · 2004-02-29 10:35 · Score: 5, Informative

how do you know you have 100%? Super Metroid was the first game to bother keeping track of your completion rate and I have yet to find complete maps of the game anywhere
100% is just getting every item... pretty simple :-) Since the weapons respawn and are in different places, we just decided that you have to get each one once.
As for a complete map, check GameFAQs, I just submitted once recently.

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Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
Re:Silly Question by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 10:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

http://planetquake.com/sda/other/supermetroid.html 100% at one hour exactly. watch and weep.
Re:Silly Question by MMaestro · 2004-02-29 11:31 · Score: 5, Informative

am I the only person who has trouble believing people who claim to get a 100% completion rate in Super Metroid in less than 1:30?
Considering I personally have beaten Super Metroid in less than 1 hour with roughly 60% completion, its not hard to imagine some hardcore gamer out there getting 100%, with an extra half hour. (Unless you do a bare minimum run through, you will get at LEAST 30% completion rate. As it stands the lowest is 15% so 30% isn't that much more.)
Not only that, there are reports and entire FAQs dedicated to bare MINIMUM runs (theres even a report for a 1% run through in Metroid Fusion!) Naturally this were made on the emulator so they wouldn't count, but the fact that they CAN BE DONE remains.
Re:Silly Question by fredrikj · 2004-02-29 11:43 · Score: 2, Informative

Well, the record for 100% in Super Metroid in 0:58. Straight speed is 0:38. Check my post history, I recently posted links.
Re:Silly Question by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 13:31 · Score: 1

Here's the formula used to calculate what % you have at the end of the game. (Total number of missile pickups (22) + Total number of energy tanks (6) + Each weapon picked up ONLY ONCE as any more would break 100% (4) + All the suit upgrades (7)) / 39
Re:Silly Question by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 13:37 · Score: 1

Which seems more realistic? A rom where you can savestate back to a previous point, or the real game where if you want to go back you have to go ALL the way back. Also, how fast is that computer? If its slow enough, slowdown can occur, thus rendering the run ineligible because it wasn't running at the same speed the real game would be and would allow for more accurate jumps and such. Besides, the legality of the who thing over roms and emulators is also in question, and Nintendo probably wouldn't allow such a record if it wasn't done on the real thing.
Re:Silly Question by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 14:34 · Score: 3, Interesting

100% with 1:30 is a bit of a joke I seem to remember. I may be wrong, but I believe getting below an hour with any percentage is more difficult (and I got 0:43 a couple years ago before newer tricks were found; though yes, getting below 1:00 seems impossible for a while).
And Metroid Fusion 1% run is doable and really not that bad compared to Super Metroid 15%. The reason: all the normal upgrades (Varia, Gravity, etc) do NOT count towards your percentage. You'd be able to do 0% except one missile pod is sitting in your way and you have to roll through it.
By converse, Metroid Prime low percentage runs realistically get padded by 12 items or so (because you have to collect the Chozo Artifacts which really shouldn't add to your percentage).
Oh, and just for the fun of it, you can get to the very last save in Metroid II picking up only the bombs (so 1%...well you start with 30 missiles and the morph ball, thus 5 might be a more accurate description). I haven't managed to bomb jump up through the goo into the next room yet, but in theory I think it can be done. You'll need the Ice Beam to kill the metroids in the next section, of course (2%). Now, for the Queen, the trick is to bomb her stomach, but you lose energy when you do that, and you only have the 30 starting missiles. It's possible that you literally don't have the resources to kill her; I don't know her HP I'm afraid.
Re:Silly Question by fredrikj · 2004-02-29 14:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Why would a video recording be more reliable as evidence? Really, what would prevent a cheater from recording on an emulator and then creating a video from that (through his TV or whatever)?

Your chances of catching a cheater are in fact greater when dealing with emulator input recordings, since you can analyze the exact input and, judging from reaction times and various oddities, to some degree determine the likelihood of slowmotion being used. Then there's visual analysis, of course. A skilled player can often tell when there's something superhuman going on. I know that a few cheaters on the Doom speedrunning scene have been caught this way.

In the end, the safest way is knowing the person. And trust me, there's no reason the guy who set these records would have cheated. He's made tons of recordings, each containing mistakes and occasionally improving his time slightly. I doubt a cheater would go through that.

On the other hand, if I saw a flawless run...
Re:Silly Question by Guppy06 · 2004-02-29 16:11 · Score: 1

"Total number of energy tanks (6)"

Except that I've collected 8. As with the first game, any e-tanks after 6 don't count. But if you don't get them, then they are obviously items in the game you didn't get.

"Each weapon picked up ONLY ONCE as any more would break 100%"

Depends on how you count. There's a school of thought that not getting each beam weapon twice gives you less than 100%, since they are items you did not pick up.

And again back to the first game, should you have to get the Ice Beam in both locations for your completion rate to be considered 100%?
Re:Silly Question by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 16:33 · Score: 1

If people request it, I'll make that version of the run as well. (and for that i'd need the ice beam 3 times.) But this was what was accepted at the speed demo archive.
Re:Silly Question by keyne9 · 2004-03-01 07:55 · Score: 1

I don't doubt it either, as I have a save on my cart under two hours, 98% (that I remember--it's been awhile) without beating Kraid. This means, of course, that I could not fight Mother Brain and finish, but it's still fun to show people that he's alive with all that stuff =)
Re:Silly Question by ooby · 2004-03-01 08:12 · Score: 1

Back in my cheating days I used Game Genie and beat it with 150%, although eventually I both lost the codes and learned about that thing called gameplay.

Question? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 10:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

It seems that the run was broken into segments which were based on save points.

Did the person actually run through the game in the time he said he did? Or did he just repeat each segment for the best time possible and then add all the shortest segments up for the time stated?

-J

Re:Question? by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 14:37 · Score: 4, Informative

Repeat each segment of course. This is how it works in-game too. There's a constant raging debate over which save points to visit, and which to skip. The more you visit the more you break up the run into more perfectable pieces. However visiting a save point takes time as well, so you really shouldn't do it too often.
Re:Question? by Phosphor3k · 2004-02-29 14:52 · Score: 1

I watched through the videos the other day, its broken up into different files for each save segment, so at least he isn't trying to hide it. But there ARE clear fuckups in his runs in multiple segments. In one instance he missed a jump to a platform three times in a row. That seems like something he'd want to retry for, but was clearly left in. Take that as you may.

Those are cheated! by Radix37 · 2004-02-29 10:39 · Score: 5, Informative

Recorded with emulators using thousands of save states and slow motion too.

Everything at SDA is on the real game.

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Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!

Re:Those are cheated! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 11:42 · Score: 0

Are they actually faked, or are you just talking out of your ass? There are some mistakes in those videos (in the Zelda one for example, the player accidently exits a dungeon just to return... unless that's some secret I don't know about).
Re:Those are cheated! by Radix37 · 2004-02-29 12:13 · Score: 5, Informative

Are they actually faked, or are you just talking out of your ass?
Proof: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvideos.html

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Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
Re:Those are cheated! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 13:35 · Score: 2, Informative

> in the Zelda one for example, the player accidently exits a dungeon just to return... unless that's some secret I don't know about

If you look really closely, leaving and reentering the dungeon causes one of the locked doors in the entrance to dissapear. This saves a minute or so of running around to get the key.

Re:Submitter is a loser by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 10:48 · Score: 4, Interesting

I was expecting this. Actually I was looking for some way to overcome a depression that i'm in, and this has helped to boost my spirit a bit so I'm not thinking about doing the wrong stuff anymore.

mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 11:14 · Score: 0

i think it's interesting why people attempt something like this... and PrinceBrightstar, just ignore the grandparent AC, he's at best hypocritical.

Re:Submitter is a loser by GigsVT · 2004-02-29 11:16 · Score: 2, Funny

but why did you, Mr McCool, waste your time posting that flame?

I bet Rob McCool, the httpd guy, takes offense at that. :)

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I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.

Minimum percentage runs by MMaestro · 2004-02-29 11:34 · Score: 4, Interesting

Will there ever be a speed run record for people who play through getting the bare minimum items? At least in the Metroid games, you don't need to get all the items especially considering with 100% you'd end up with over 100 missles and 1000 energy..

Re:Minimum percentage runs by fredrikj · 2004-02-29 11:45 · Score: 4, Informative

Super Metroid has been done with 14% items.
Re:Minimum percentage runs by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 15:16 · Score: 1

From GameFAQs:
Board: Super Metroid Topic: Sortest time ever for a 15% game? From: smokeYxMCpot Posted: 2/20/2004 8:42:36 PM the best is 1:36 set by me, AFAIK. I really don't think 14/15% runs are done for speed anyways.
Personally I did 1:45 IIRC (though it may have been 1:56; I should look that up in my log book). However, I double bomb jumped into Lower Norfair as this was before the Gravity Suit trick, and that took me a couple months so I would just try it repeatedly. So given how much time I wasted, 1:36 sounds very reasonable indeed.
Re:Minimum percentage runs by DarkZero · 2004-02-29 16:44 · Score: 1

Will there ever be a speed run record for people who play through getting the bare minimum items? At least in the Metroid games, you don't need to get all the items especially considering with 100% you'd end up with over 100 missles and 1000 energy..

Just as a quick side note, the new Metroid game, Metroid: Zero Mission for the GBA, has special endings for players that beat the game with 15% or less on Normal or Hard mode. So at the very least, the games' developers are taking notice of the players that try those runs.
Re:Minimum percentage runs by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-01 10:30 · Score: 0

Also they took it a step further: at the points in the game that require a screw attack to get past, almost all of them have a missle block nearby that allows 15% runners to get by without said upgrade.

So um.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 11:53 · Score: 0

What are the old records? Are they archived somewhere, or are you just assuming you beat them?

SMB3 speedruns fake? by BTWR · 2004-02-29 13:32 · Score: 1

Were the SMB3 speed runs proven fake?

Re:SMB3 speedruns fake? by PrinceBrightstar · 2004-02-29 14:05 · Score: 5, Informative

The one by the japanese player who did the 11 minute run admitted that they were faked by going frame by frame through an emulator.
Re:SMB3 speedruns fake? by Bisqwit · 2004-03-02 00:45 · Score: 1

There's information about the SMB3 video at here: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvideos.html#how
(also more NES videos).
It all depends on what you mean by "fake".
The videos are exactly what they promise to be, so in that sense they are very real.

14%? Alright; spill the beans by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 15:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

I know that either 3Missiles/2Supers or 2Missiles/3Supers are needed to beat the Mother Brain and the zebetites, then let's look at the rest:

6% -- Morph Ball (can't get out of the area without it)
7% -- Bombs (needed to leave Crateria) that area of Brinstar)
8% -- Power Bombs (needed to enter the Wrecked Ship, and to beat Metroids without the Ice Beam)
9% -- Gravity Suit (needed to activate the Speed Booster underwater)
10% -- Speed Booster (needed to access Draygon)
11% -- Charge Beam (needed to kill Ridley/Mother Brain unless you stock up on more missiles/Supers)
14% -- Three Energy Tanks (needed to survive Mother Brain's ultimate attack)
15% -- Varia Suit (cuts Mother Brain's ultimate attack in half while Gravity does nothing, unlike all other damage in the game. This is easy to fake in a video mind you, since Gravity and Varia/Gravity look identical)

This is the knowledge of 2001. Has anything changed? If there was a way to bypass the zebetite columns presumably this would cut down the percentage by more than 1%. If you could survive Mother Brain's ultimate attack by crystal flashing maybe...? That'd take out the Varia and three energy tanks, but add in two Power Bombs and at least two Super Missiles. I can't honestly see leaving out the Charge Beam, and all other items lock you completely out of an area before you can progress.

So...spill the beans. What new crack in the game has been found and exploited?

Metroid Prime Differences? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-29 15:20 · Score: 0

Anyone know what differences there are in the three different versions of Metriod Prime? The site mentions that there are differences that change the completion time between PAL, Player's Choice, and NTSC.

Re:Metroid Prime Differences? by edwdig · 2004-02-29 16:35 · Score: 4, Informative

Metroid Prime wasn't designed for you to be able to get major items out of order. The only way to do it is by taking advantage of glitches in the game.

One example is bomb jumping - you can't just keep dropping bombs. After setting 3 off, you have to wait for the 3 bombs to regen before you can set more. But there's a glitch along the lines of pausing after setting off the first one, which lets you get 5 off in a short time. It lets you bomb jump slightly higher, and lets you reach the areas that were supposed to be just out of reach of bomb jumping. In the PAL version, some of those ledges were made slightly higher so that this trick wouldn't work.

The other major glitch is in wall design. Most of the walls have rocky surfaces. A lot of them unintentionally had polygons meet in such a way that if you jumped perfectly onto a certain part, you could stand there and then jump again to reach things you shouldn't be able to. A few of those polygons may have been altered in the PAL version to prevent those jumps.
Re:Metroid Prime Differences? by N10sb2002 · 2004-03-01 06:31 · Score: 0

There's a list of the differences at metroid2002.com. There's a few posts on the Metroid Prime boards on GameFAQs and metroid2002.com about them.

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"I wonder what it's like living in a constant haze of stupidity" - Hiei, Yu Yu Hakusho
Re:Metroid Prime Differences? by Frizzle+Fry · 2004-03-01 09:42 · Score: 1

But there's a glitch along the lines of pausing after setting off the first one, which lets you get 5 off in a short time. It lets you bomb jump slightly higher, and lets you reach the areas that were supposed to be just out of reach of bomb jumping. In the PAL version, some of those ledges were made slightly higher so that this trick wouldn't work.

Why would they do that rather just fixing the glitch?!

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I'd rather be lucky than good.
Re:Metroid Prime Differences? by edwdig · 2004-03-01 11:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because the effects of changing a few polygons is much easier to run thru QA than the effects of changing the properties of one of the most important player abilities.

What's the non-100% record? by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 15:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

Personally, I found 100% runs to be kind of pointless, especially on Metroid 2 where they don't even tell you the percentage, and glitches allow you to get more items that theoretically weren't supposed to be in the game. Even in Super Metroid, though, you basically avoid getting items for most of the game, then sweep back through at the very end when you can reach all the spots and subsequently crush the Mother Brain like a bug. Why do the final sweep at the end? It just serves to make the last few bosses pathetic and thus boring, and merely reduces your choices of route (since you have to go this direction anyway to get the missile, the other shortcut is useless).

So...I'm wondering what the non-100% run for Metroid 2 is. Have they gotten it below an hour yet? I don't remember hearing about it, but I wouldn't be surprised....

Re:What's the non-100% record? by Radix37 · 2004-02-29 16:39 · Score: 1

I have 1:05... I started to record it a few weeks ago and then BrightStar comes out of the blue to do a 100%. I wasn't expecting competition heh. I'll finish mine soon though and it'll be on the same page. Maybe I'll get 1:04 or even 1:03 but I don't see how under an hour would be possible.

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Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!

Re:14%? Alright; spill the beans by fredrikj · 2004-02-29 16:04 · Score: 3, Informative

The removed item is the Speed Booster, which you in fact don't need to access Draygon. By freezing a Mochtroid and jumping on it in the right moment, it is possible to pass through the block above it. Another glitch in the collision detection has been found that makes it possible to skip the Zebetites (but it doesn't change the amount of missiles needed, since you could always reload, and the amount required to beat Mother Brain is the same).

This is easy to fake in a video mind you, since Gravity and Varia/Gravity look identical)

Well, you'd record picking it up, wouldn't you?

Re:14%? Alright; spill the beans by edwdig · 2004-02-29 16:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

The previous poster listed 15% items without the ice beam. Your method would require getting the ice beam in order to skip the speed booster.

Quake came out before Metroid? by dancingmad · 2004-02-29 16:34 · Score: 3, Troll

which are an extension of classic Quake speed runs.

Uh...no, Quake came out in 1996, Super Metroid in 1994 and the original Metroid long before that - and people were doing speed runs back then (I know my friends did). The internet has made it easier to show off good runs, but it started long before Quake, so they're not an extension.

I don't see why everything has to be tied back to crappy PC games (especially cool console stuff).

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"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)

Re:Quake came out before Metroid? by Radix37 · 2004-02-29 16:50 · Score: 2, Informative

He means that it's an extension of SDA... used to be all about Quake but now it's expanding. Of course Quake wasn't the first speed run game ... even on the internet, I think that would have to be Doom.

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Speed Demos Archive - Lots of speed runs!
Re:Quake came out before Metroid? by Thanatiel · 2004-03-01 23:49 · Score: 1

AFAIK DooM was IPX. The TCP/IP protocol came much later, added by fans.

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Irrelevant news and morons using moderation to mod down what they disagree on. 2018 resolution: so long.

Re:14%? Alright; spill the beans by fredrikj · 2004-02-29 16:50 · Score: 2, Informative

Sorry. I checked the recording again, the other difference is that he only uses 10/10 missiles/super missiles.

Re:14%? Alright; spill the beans by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 17:12 · Score: 1

Hmm, yeah that checks out. If you use collision detection to get past the zetebite columns then you could get away with one less set. The reason is that the columns take 11 missiles, so with 10 Missiles you lose a Super Missile for each column (you reload Missiles between each one, of course).

And Nintendo Power can prove that. by metroid+composite · 2004-02-29 17:24 · Score: 0, Offtopic

Nintendo Power Arena anyone? Much better known than this site, though granted you only have a month to do the challenge at best, which is certainly less time than I spent doing my serious SM speed run, and I spent a long time getting a feel for the game first.

Though, speed runs didn't used to be as popular. I know I didn't get interested in them at all until (believe it or not) 1998 and Warioland 2. Can anybody beat 2:45? Does anybody have a clue what I'm talking about? *sigh*

GoldenEye and Perfect Dark... by SamSim · 2004-03-02 01:42 · Score: 2, Informative

The fastest GoldenEye 007 videos add up to around 1 hour 18 minutes.
For Perfect Dark they add to something less than 1:40.
Of course, these are the collaborative work of many, many different gamers... but we've been working on those times for six years, and we use WAY more tricks. Enjoy.

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Metroid II, Prime Get New Speed Run Records

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