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Top Web Businesses Oppose Utah Spyware Law
theodp writes "According to MediaPost.com: 'Some of the Web's leading content and technology providers have taken action to lobby against Utah's controversial Spyware Control Act, which is awaiting the governor's signature. Web publishers and businesses including AOL, Amazon, Cnet, eBay, Google, Microsoft, and Yahoo! signed a letter to the bill's sponsors arguing that the bill could create serious repercussions for the entire online community. The parties to the letter warned that the bill could interfere with computer security and would also impair the delivery of local, targeted ads'."
I dont see a problem:
Under the bill, any software that reports its users' online actions, sends personal data to other companies, or serves pop-up ads without permission is prohibited.
How hard is it to get permission? All you have to say is: "Do you want to be informed of the best deals in your area?", and %90 of people will say: "Sign me up!". Im sure it will be easy to get around this law if a company wants to. And given the profit motive, why wouldn't they?
For example, the parties to the letter warned that the bill could interfere with computer security by preventing information technology and security companies from collecting data to analyze and prevent virus attacks, and would also impair the delivery of local, targeted ads.
If they are that concerned about security they could have AV companies include a [X] "Report viruses to Foo.com AV Central" option to eliminate that minor complaint and be compliant with the new law. As for targetted ads.. well, that's what they're really concerned about. It's a multi-million (billion?) dollar industry. Screaming about how bad the bill is for security is just a smoke and mirrors game.
I only hope that the spyware people don't go after the AdAware or Spybot Search & Destroy folks under the guise of the DMCA.
The way things today are going though..
Trolling is a art,
your "targeted ads" are going to be discarded because someone thinks they're spyware, maybe the ads should be re-thought?
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
While this could potentially be welcoming, I fail to see it actually enforcable. With many programs that contain spyware, you agree to their terms of services which more than likely includes that 1. they may redirect you. 2. You allow them to update/install what they want ... and so forth.
Further more there are programs that may not be spyware, but are milicious, and problematic for users (like RealOne).
That's why those of us who give a damn do this:
- Refuse most cookies
- Block malicious servers with HOSTS files
- Mozilla (Block Images from Selected Server)
- Spybot/Ad-Aware (If in Windows)
Althought admittedly, this phrase is interesting:
"Under the bill, any software that reports its users' online actions, sends personal data to other companies, or serves pop-up ads without permission is prohibited. It does contain certain exceptions that some industry analysts have deemed "self-contradictory," such as "cookies" used for personalizing Web pages, and ads served by HTML or JavaScript."
That completely outlaws a crapwad of software there.
However, as a lot of spyware is non-U.S. in origin, it won't curb all of it.
Striking fear in the authors of godawful fanfiction, I am here, appearing in darkness, Tuxedo Jack!
Yep... this is an interesting problem. The bill says (1) A person may not:...
(c) use a context based triggering mechanism to display an advertisement that partially or wholly covers or obscures paid avertising or other content on an Internet website in a way that interferes with a user's ability to view the Internet website.
That could be read to say program that removes any part of the website from the user's view and replaces it with either something else or even plain nothingness is prohibited. So many non-spyware user-friendly uses of technology could get caught in the crossfire...
I agree that the law looks flawed, and it's okay to protest. What I don't understand is, where were these guys when another flawed law passed congress?
This is a nice try by a well intentioned legislator, but a state law will have very little effect on the operations of Internet companies not operating from their state. Let's face it, the United States has trouble geting its laws to regulate offshore casinos and offshore-based music download services.
If you don't like the laws of the jurisdiction you're setting up an Internet company, it's far too easy to set up shop in a more friendly jurisdiction. With this law being clearly written by somebody who isn't bothering to carve out a nice safe territory for targeted ads, Utah will basically lose any bit of the Internet content industry it has left to other states.
only effect on security banning spyware could have is to IMPROVE it. fucking spyware. sick of removing it from people's computers. it might affect computer sales tho. With no more spyware on their computers, newbies will be able to get by with a much slower machine. The loads of spyware make people complain that their 2.4Ghz P4 isn't fast enough and help sell the 3.2s etc, so that even with it's bogged down by spyware it still feels like a 2.0
With Free Software, things like this would not happen.
BS. IF linux gets adopted by the mainstream desktop market, you can bet your ass that spyware will quickly follow. And the mainstream desktop users will be just as helpless and unable to stop it as they are now.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
The result, after some negotiation and input from Net companies, is a bill that bars companies from installing software that reports its users' online actions, sends any personal data to other companies, or pops up advertisements without permission. It contains some loopholes: Advertisements served by ordinary HTML or JavaScript are exempted, as are the ordinary "cookies" often used to help personalize Web pages.
I still don't see how this is bad. Sure it has 'enforcement' issues, but it carries a $10,000 fine, it might serve as a good deterrent.
Still Mud? Try www.phoenixmud.org!
this crap ware would exist in Linux as soon as the user base got big enough to have a proffitable segment of morons, who don't know to check the MD5 hashes (or even what they were). yes propritary software created this problem, but free software alone will not get rid of it
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
And in other news:
The NRA is against gun control laws.
Anti-abortionist demonstrated at an abortion clinic.
Muslim extremists sent threatening letters.
The stock market is crashing.
And the sky is falling...
Mod +5 Drunk
Criminey Sakes already!
* It's my computer, bought and paid for.
* It's my software, bought and paid for (and/or acquired free, legally).
* It's my bandwidth, bought and paid for (on a monthly basis).
Let me decide what to do with it.
If I want to load up my HD with bloatware, spyware, malware or whatever, as long as it harms no one else... who the hell cares?
If, on the other hand, I want to run my system cleanly, block out all malware sources with a HOSTS file, install anti-spyware and anti-virus software and do whatever else I see fit... again... who the hell cares?
It's my choice to run my computer and my software to twiddle my own bits as I damn well see fit.
If the government doesn't know anything about what the hell it is regulating, it out to stay the hell out of trying to do anything with it.
The problem with socialism is that they always run out of other people's money. - Margaret Thatcher
See, the problem is, Spyware jerks (like Gator) always CLAIM that what they are delivering is (a) with permission, (b) wanted, and (c) delivering some sort of benefit to the consumer.
And it takes a hell of a lot to debunk that.
The BIG one is to get shitholes like Gator to stop using "trickler" apps that reinstall the program if the user tries to remove it.
Why are the people who call Bush a dictator the same ones who want to take away our guns?
Not true.... I'm a NRA card carrying, Whitetail hunting, handgun owning Independant. The way I see things currently is Bush is killing free speach and needs to get out of office!!
Why worry? Each of us is wearing an unlicensed "nucular" accelerator on his back.
Sig changed for readability by G.W.
I don't think we need Utah legislators dictating technology to us. Maybe I'm cynical after looking at other tech-laws. Do we really want laws written by someone who needs an assistant to write an email? I think everyone in my office has a computer that operates about 20-30% too slow due to spyware/adware. Maybe people should increase security on their browsers and watch what they download. While a law against spyware sounds cool, I just believe it's going to backfire on us somehow. Anyway this law wouldn't even protect against Gator (or whatever they're called) anyway :)
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Perhaps they arent fools, and realize that legal solutions to technical problems ALWAYS backfire.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The whole issue centers around the issue or Nexis in law. (The Connection) So long as the law allows that you are connected or had contact with the Plaintiff you are subject to the laws he has. It would seem that since the webpage is deliberately placed in a media and advertized in a way such as to affect the actions of a person in this or that jurisdiction it comes under the law.
The problem is that the EU for example does not honor UTAH warrants like the 49 other US States do. So this really only applies inside the USA. The Netherlands tried to apply jurisdiction as did Belgium to the whole world over "War Crimes" recently. It almost worked but the USA had other ideas on the matter and turned some screws and that died.
The real issue here is that the Business pushing the spam is selling goods inside the USA so it pretty much comes under the Nexis of US Courts and Laws. It would take a simple act of US Law forbidding the collection of any foreign debt which was incurred outside of US Laws and the Spammers would be out of MONEY.
If any US State simply forbid the collection of Credit Cards and Payments of Debits with Triplicate Damages plus Legal the Money guys would get in line. (Same as US Fair Debt Collection Practices Act of 1979)
Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.
Spyware MUST be outlawed. Otherwise, don't be surprised when, say, Google starts telling you, "Sorry, we just tried to install our 'tracking' software on your system and failed. Please take your searches elsewhere."
This is very simular to the spam debait, only becuase its the ones that go out of there way to hide who they really are, and where it came from.
...
I hate spam as much as everyone else. I have a series of filters I use to get rid of as much as possiable. Even then, it only works about 98% of the time.
If I install AIM, they have a little bar that shows ads. That doesn't bother me. I get a free service from them, then just have to have a SMALL add in the "buddy list". Small price to pay.
What I don't agree with, is companys that install spyware without telling you about it. They NEED to say they are going to install it, and when you uninstall the application, the spyware needs to be uninstalled as well.
Another thing, which is how they get you to install there spyware. I had a problem a while back, I went to some silly joke website. It asked if I wanted to install Macromadia Flash. (Notice the spelling) Since this was a new latop, I said sure. From that day on, every 12 hours and everytime the laptop booted up. It would ask if I wanted to install "free scratch cards". Funny, there is a EULA, and an accept button. No decline / cancel / exit button, no close button, etc.
Everytime you would delete the file, it would reappear a few hours later. Still to this day, I can't figure out how to get rid of it. I did however find a way to disable it, but its still on my machine.
That should be illegal. You should be required to tell the user WHAT they are REALLY installing. Misspelling company names and what not should be considered as fraud. Bundling spyware with other freeware apps without mentioning this to the user should also be illegal.
Hijacking browsers and making it very difficult to change, or reset should also be illegal. I had a friend of mine whos machine was taking over so bad, that is browser only had 1 inputbox. No back and forward arrows, no stop or refresh. Just a inputbox which submits to a spyware search engine. Which interestingly enough returned the SAME results as google, even had the same style. The difference is, the names where changed and there was ads ALL over the place. It was so bad, that a reinstall of windows was the best option.
I don't have a problem with ads on freeware apps. As long as
1) I am told about it
2) When I uninstall the freeware app, the spyware goes along.
3) It doesn't damage my system by hijacking it.
4) There isn't fraud as to the source of the application or its install methods.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
I hate ads as much as the next person, but a couple of ads sure beats having to pay for services online.
I may be alone here, but personally I never really minded ads, and sometimes I actually miss those plain old static banners. Every now and then I'd click on one if it was something that caught my interest, and I even managed to pick up some decent bargains occasionally. As a matter of fact, I never even considered blocking any ads until they became so distracting that I couldn't read a sites content for fear of retinal burn from all the obnoxious flashing going on, so now I simply block everything I can.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I doubt anyone is surprised by Microsoft's, AOL's, etc, complaints, but Google and the like? That seems a bit odd.
Google's a great company for offering an unbiased search with small, tasteful text ads, and for sustaining the newsgroup archives many of us still call DejaGoogle.
So we tend to see Google as one of the "good guys". And to some extent, they are one of the good guys.
That said, Google also records the IP address and the search term of each Google search, potentially amassing a great deal of privacy threatening information about you, and it offers the Goggle tool-bar, which apparently "phones home" data about the sites a user visits.
And then Google gets a pass on this from too many of us, because of the good it does.
Any concentration of personal information in a single entity's hands is a threat, even if that entity is wholly benign, because the existence of this trove of information would at the very least tempt other unscrupulous entities to steal the information. And even if Google is wholly benign now, that's no guarantee that it always will be. And frankly, there's no proof that Google is wholly benign.
This is, incidentally, why we must also be wary of government programs like "Total Information Awareness" and MATRIX: even if they're used for wholly benign purposes, like counter-terrorism -- now, there's no guarantee they won't be subverted -- just as FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover subverted the FBI -- for monitoring dissidents or for increasing the personal political power of the men who control these databases.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
From the article:
"The parties to the letter warned that the bill could interfere with computer security and would also impair the delivery of local, targeted ads."
Yeah, THAT'S THE POINT. The law will not interfere with computer security. The law will cause most major companies to have to resort to 3rd party gator-like advertisements which will affect computer security. What a way to spin it!
Often wrong but never in doubt.
I am Jack9.
Everyone knows me.
Nope... I've not missed the point... This IS my point. BS, BS and *more* BS. I did not implicitly agree to shit besides the fact that I wanted to install DIVX, and NOTHING BUT DIVX. Bundling gator software in so it autoinstalls without me knowing it or having a choice in the matter is like like passing a bill in the house that just happens to contain a a tidy little $5mil raise for your local senator on page 396 in a 2 pt. font. It's pure trash.
/. trolls, here are gonna hide in the corners, report everything you do to our home office, smoke cigars, and torment your cat. Hope you don't mind. They don't eat much, I swear."
As for their second claim... Let's imagine a travelling salesman walks onto my property, picks the locks on my door and walks into my house. He proceeds to note everything in my home on his little PDA, and send all this info back to his home office. I finally find him lurking in a corner of my attic, where he proceeds to pitch me on something, and as I'm |1ck1N5 his a$$ out the door, he sez, "But I have great offers! Are you sure you want to do this." My response is a resounding (Robin Williams impersonation here) "FSCK OFF".
So, sumn bitch shoulda gone to jail in the first place. I didn't invite him in; He invited himself the same way Gator does. Actually, to make it more accurate, instead of him picking the lock, say he sneaks in the back door while I let my buddy Dr. DivX in the front door, when no one is looking.
So, I've thrown him out. I was nice enough not to call the cops this time. Later this evening, I'm about to go to bed (Dr. DivX is no longer even in the house), when, lo and behold, I find our Gator-skin-boots salesman hiding under my bed. "SPECIAL OFFERS!", he cries. "FSCK OFF 0R D|3!!!!!!!!!!", I reply.
His excuse for coming back in? "Well, there's a driveway, and it leads to a door, and, well, if you didn't want me in your house, you wouldn't have put a door or any windows on it."
"WTF are you talking about," I ask.
"STFU and RTFM," the guy says. "There's a door on your house, so that's an open invitation for me to come in."
"Well, WTF about the 2 locks and deadbolt on the door???"
"Oh... Those... Well, y'see, I happen to have this handy-dandy universal garage-door remote control, and I used that 'cuz I really need to inventory your house and what you watch on TV. BTW, these little techno-gremlins and their buddies, the
"Wait one damn second here... GET THE HELL OUT."
This is the point where I set the salesman on fire.
Hence my original point. I don't give a d4mn what they CLAIM I agreed to, it's total 5]-[1+. I didn't agree to do anything but install an app, and that does not include agreement to install somebody eles's piece of shit speware (i liked the typo... it's my new word for spyware) package. I never have and never will voluntarily install this shit or anything like it on my PC (note, PC, stands for PERSONAL computer, not PUBLIC), and no one can resonably debate with me otherwise. It will simply never happen. Therefore, Gator is invading my privacy and trespassing on my PERSONAL computer which resides on my PRIVATE property, and so they and all the other like them should be dealt with as the hijacking information terrorists they are.
If it's illegal for the FEDERAL GOVERNEMENT and it's agencies to conduct an unlawful search of me or my property (and that includes my computer network) without a warrant, why isn't illegal for Gator to do so?
Answer, it IS illegal. Problem is, the businesses and the technolgically unwashed dunderheads that are in office don't want you to know this. They think they are above the law (which needs to be re-worded and updated), and we have to do everything that we can to make sure these bills go through... Preferrably with penalties just as stiff as those for tresspass and illegal search and seizure... As in I beat them about the head with a flaming trout until they HAVE seizures, at which point they are twitching, and on fire. Yes, yes, I like that mental image VERY much.
"Inveniemus Viam Aut Faciemus" 'We will find a way... Or we will make one!' --Hannibal of Carthage
We're not talking about servers on a company network where quotas are enforced and not everyone is 100% trusted. This is about home desktops. If you screw up your userland, it's still a big deal if you're the only person using it.