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City Officials Almost Ban Foam Cups
localhost00 writes "The city of Aliso Viejo, CA nearly banned foam cups when they learned they are produced from a substance known as 'dihydrogen monoxide.' A paralegal working for the city apparantly found a professionally designed web site put up to describe the dangerous properties of this chemical.
Apparantly, the report about Dihydrogen Monoxide was written by a then 14-year-old Nathan Zohner who was researching the gullibility of fifty ninth graders."
this is simply amazing.
Maybe this is why people shouldn't take any document on the Web at face value unless they check the sources or credentials. Not only can there be research study oriented "fake web pages", but there also can be pranks and out of date information (many pages do not have timestamps). I know many professors at my university view Web references as something that you use at last resort, when all other reference sources fail. However, another problem is that there IS a lot of good content on the web, and sometimes they disappear and can never be located again, unless they were lucky enough to have been crawled over by archive.org
Nice, law making officials have been put on the same level of discerning information as a class of high school freshman. This gives me great confidence in our legaslative bodies.
People react here just the same as ninth graders, it would seem.
But seriously, they shouldn't name that stuff so dangerously. I can understand the confusion. Erm, that's a standard naming convention for molecules. (IUPEC Naming maybe? Can't remember.)
I hate grammar Nazi's.
I find it worrying that any kind of person in government (even local government) could be so
pig ignorant of basic science that they'd fall for
this hoax. Didn't they listen AT ALL at school? But this seems to be a general problem in the population as a whole , even amongst suppposed intellectuals (read: arts & MBA
graduates) and yet amazingly they're not even usually embarrsed about it. The only reason they are in this story is because it was made public. If their ignorance was revealed in private
they probably wouldn't give a damn , yet if they'd found to be wanting in knowledge of business or the humanities they'd probably go red faced.
Not only was that posted in the article above, but if you actually read the Snopes writeup you'll see that it's true.
So... urban fact.
Funny thing: the web page which looks real, is bogus. The banner ad for klein bottles which looks like a joke is real. It's for a company run by Cliff Stoll, author of the Cuckoo's Egg.
So before you start lambasting Kawhlefornia (Terminator speak for California), remember these shows prove it happens everywhere.
Oh look a puppy!
Funny, as a teenager I always thought of myself as being a lot more intelligent than the average adult (much to their chagrin) - and up until now (as I approach 30) I haven't seen much evidence showing I was wrong. I'm constantly running into cashiers who cannot make change without their cash register, salespeople who have no clue about the products they are selling, people who can barely spell (a visit to nearly any chat board is enough to turn my stomach). Seems like despite all the progress we seem to be making, the bottom half (two-thirds?) of our population seems to be regressing further and further. My Grandfather (who had to quit school in grade two to help his Dad on the farm) has writing and math skills that make him look like a scholar relative to the average McDonald's cashier with a high school diploma.
I think our approach to designing products aimed at the lowest common denominator might actually be responsible for all of this. Think about it the next time you pick up a cup of coffee with a warning on it stating that coffee is hot. If a paralegal (a "research expert" if you will) can be fooled by a smart 14-year old, what does that say about our society?
The beauty of this site and the others that perpetuate this is that it is 100% factual. Exposed inhalation will kill you, you'll drown. It is a critical ingredient in acid rain, it does react explosively with certain chemicals etc.
Its designed to catch people with knee jerk reactions that cant be bothered to do even a brief investigation of the facts. Its a way of showing the people that are always claiming the sky is falling for the fools that they are.
You shouldn't take ANY document at face value... it doesn't matter if it's on the web or not.
this isn't an Internet thing... get a grip.
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
I have a classy inox cup that does the same thing, and that is reusable. We do depend on styrofoam too much.
After 3 days without programming, life becomes meaningless
- The Tao of Programming
Quite the contrary.
Styrofoam should be a preferred material based on how well it can be recycled.
Pretty easy to take potshots at elected officials. In cases like this one, they're well deserved. However, I submit that expecting perfect decision-making 100% of the time from leaders is akin to expecting coders to write non-trivial code that works perfectly on first execution.
Which is not a blank check to politicians, letting them go out and debug their way to a reasonable course of action.
Ultimately, if we're that pissed off about stuff, we have to get involved, whereupon we'll see some of the complexities involved.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Duh, it's a hoax.
/.'ers would look into something this much, i'm proud to be one of them :-p
Since when have hoaxes needed accurate info?
Only geeks or
Error 407 - No creative sig found
No, no, no
The website contained 100% factual information, although written in a very humorous way
You cannot accuse SCO of doing that, more like the opposite
This guy probably has a career in marketing ahead of him though.
Why? Marijuana is safer than water. You can fatally overdose on water, unlike marijuana.
This is also the state that wanted to make Feng Shui a requirement in every CA office.
Josh
The problem is that politicians see themselves as capable of correctly legislating everything (proof: They legislate things all the time they can't possibly be educated about). I also see this as proof that politicians aren't generally interested in truth, but rather are more interested in looking important/effective.
And for the record, even though I did very well in high school and college chemistry, I missed the "dihydrogen monoxide" reference at first. However, I never presumed to be knowledgable enough to actually make a policy creating decision on the matter either...they did.
A modern day witchhunt.
Actually, in just about any law firm, it's the paralegal who is responsible for the research. Paralegals are the unsung heros of the legal profession, doing all of the work and getting none of the credit. The basic difference between a (good) paralegal and an attorney is a couple years of school (although some go up through getting their Masters degree), a bar exam, and paralegals don't litigate in court.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
I know people who pay about the same price for bottled drinking water.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but your point does expose a rift between different sorts of environmentalists. A true "tree hugger" would far prefer the use of styrofoam to that of paper which comes from - dare I say - trees!
Another great battle is over wind power. You'd think all the environmentalists would be on top of that one. Not so - it disrupts migratory patterns and splatters a lot of birds, so many conservationists are against it. Same with things like tidal power (similar effect on fish).
Again, pedanticism aside, the environmental "faction" is far more fractured than you might think. Frequently the anti-global-warming, conservation, and wilderness camps take diametrically opposing views.
You really should check your electronegativies before saying bonds are covalent. This is pretty basic chemistry and explains amongst other things why water is liquid at livable temperatures for we humans and many other phenomenon.
You can find more about naming of chemical structures via IUPAC the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemists
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
"However, I submit that expecting perfect decision-making 100% of the time from leaders is akin to expecting coders to write non-trivial code that works perfectly on first execution."
If people are writing code that has similar effects to laws, ie people go to jail or get executed, get money taken from them by force in the form of fines, or otherwise effect people's lives in a nonvoluntary way, then they better damn well get it right on first execution after its release.
This is simply an indication that 95% of the population is scientifically illiterate.
Unfortunately science education is not mandatory like english and basic math are. Nor is it taught in a manner that supports curiousity and interest.
Given that we live in an increasingly technical dependent society it's scary to find pseudoscience and scientific ignorance so rapidly on the rise. For those struggling to separate science and pseudoscience, a good book putting science's role into a clearer perspective is Carl Sagan's book: "The Demon Haunted World, Science as a Candle in the Dark." I have a few copies and lend it to people when they need it. (Note: there are other good books too this is just one that comes to mind).
The underlying skills of critical thought and a healthy dose of skepticism are the basis of good science. Even basic concepts like Occam's razor are not widely understood or accepted. People need to be made to understand that science is not just ugly formulas in physics class, but that it forms the basis for all things that define our modern high standard of living.
If less than 1% of congress men ever elected have any scientific background how do you expect them to put forth a meaningful policy on scientific education or even understand basic issues.
Rather than sitting here in self congratulatory bliss about other people ignorance, we should take our responsibility as the scientifically literate (to some degree anyway) seriously and do what we can to educate people around us. Take an active role in science outreach programs, or at the very least lobby your elected representatives.
Yes, it is a slow difficult up hill battle, but 300 years ago 95% of the population was illiterate, today most can read and write. This is mostly due to a number of dedicated individuals that convinced their government of the need for literacy.
Ignorance is bliss... Unfortunately for me its to late...
----- "Profanity is the one language that all programmers understand."
But corrugated paper is easier to recycle if you have a bloody great big cooking range to hand .....
..... as long as the packaging is made with due regard for its secondary purpose {burning certain plastics in a cooking range would not be such a good idea}. You'll never have enough packaging to run on that alone, of course, but that's not quite the intention.
Cardboard soaked with organic grease burns fairly cleanly, especially if it isn't the only thing drawing the fire. It's made from plants, so it's not going to add any more CO2 to the atmosphere. It reduces the amount of fossil fuels used for cooking. It reduces the need to transport used containers to recycling plants {which often uses as much or more energy than initial manufacture}.
Burning food packaging in the stoves used to cook the food seems to make perfect sense
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
Obviously, not a single biochemist was consulted before deciding to bring this issue to a vote. Shoot, they could have just asked a high school chem teacher. And they've proved to be too damn stubborn to drop the whole issue, as the city manager came up with this whopper:
The irony is, it's SUPPOSED to break up in water!Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
No, this should be a cautionary tale in so many ways:
1. Just because it's on the Internet does not make it an authoritative source. I find the Internet to be a large shallow source, good for getting a direction and possible further sources for research, but not a replacement for libraries, technical journals/publications and a thousand other, more traditional, knowledge resources.
2. In the words of Mark Twain, "common sense isn't!"
3. Intelligence is not a prime prerequisite for paralegals or politicians.
Pretty easy to take potshots at elected officials...
Politicians make it soooo easy to take potshots at them! If they don't like being shot at, maybe they should quit painting targets on themselves. In other words, if they don't like being called stupid, they should stop doing stupid things!
No-one is expecting them to know chemistry, they are expecting them to want more than a slick website as proof that a substance needs a ban.
Otherwise you could just make a slick web page saying that Windows gives you cancer, and they'd ban it too!
Hey, wait a minute....
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Sure, but which is more likely: that a paralegal did the research for the council or that a councilmember took it upon him/herself to research fabrication methods for styrofoam cups? I'm as quick to slam a pol as anyone, but there's no use in slinging mud when it's not their fault, which was my point in the original post.
Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
However, I submit that expecting perfect decision-making 100% of the time from leaders is akin to expecting coders to write non-trivial code that works perfectly on first execution.
Exactly the reason why government should be kept as small as possible. Just as a reasonable operating system doesn't give every user super-user access, we shouldn't entrust the people's freedoms and rights to the government.
There are cases where the medical examiner is lazy and/or incompetent, and thinks that because THC is in the blood, that it was the cause of death. Look a little closer and you will always find that the person was also using another drug at the same time, and it caused the death.
Well someone caught it before it went to vote.
This is crap. Absolute Crap. The fact that some mis-informed or ignorant people support Environmentalism, Conservation or Sustainability DOES NOT MEAN that the people trying to form policy suggestions are all wrong.
this is h20 BS is dragged out so that Environmental-Deniers can snicker at Environmentalists *AND* so that status-quo will be maintained. "See, they're all nuts! Wackos! Look at this! hahahahah".
Absolute 100% propaganda. While true, repeating it serves a very nafarious and specific purpose... Why does Slashdot propagate this meme?
Here is another one: Capitalists are all Fascists? Nazis were 100% anti-socialist, and very good friends of the IBM, Siemens and Ford's of the world. These Capitalists enabled Nazi Fasism from the start. They funded and co-operated in putting the Nazi's into power. Therefore, Capitalists are responsible for the WWII.
Works both ways.
I disagree with your analogy that "expecting perfect decision-making 100% of the time from leaders is akin to expecting coders to write non-trivial code that works perfectly on first execution." IMO, expecting decent decisions from leaders is akin to expecting decent code in final products that go to market. I don't care if you code doesn't work the first time, it's just a draft. What I care about is the final product of both cases, and being educated enough to not waste ones time working on drafts of stupid things (sorry, I can't think of an analogy to coding here).
Have you no sense of rhythm?
Say it out loud: "what he thought was H2O was H2SO4."
Now add the "really" in there.
Doesn't sound as smooth, does it?
(just as waiters that don't have to work somewhere where they are subject to passive smoking, and the problems it's known to cause)
When a drug like alcohol or heroin causes depression of the brain in critical areas (respiratory control), too much can cause death through shallow breathing. When a drug like speed or cocaine directly increases heart rate, too much can cause heart attacks and similar problems. Pot does not affect areas of the mind or body that are critical for life, which makes overdose impossible. You just get really really stoned, and possibly freaked out. You don't die from it though.
The joke was built on a false assumption - that anyone buying the paint is an ignoramus who doesn't know that latex paint disolves in water. The explanation shows that there could still be a reason to buy 'paint thinner' - if it's pure distilled water that works better than what you get from your tap. Perhaps you think humor is so important that it's okay to ridicule undeserving people for it. Some people don't.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I think all laws passed should have two mandatory features: a list of clearly defined goals with deadlines, and a maximum cost. If any deadline passed without the goal being met, or if the maximum cost had been exceeded at any deadline, the law would immediately terminate. It could of course be repassed, but again only with the list of goals and costs.
Perhaps a portion of your argument that was left out would go as follows.
Alcohol and many other legalized drugs have been around not just for decades but for centuries. We have a solid and firm knowledge of the health risks these drugs present and how to manage those health risks.
MDMA [Ecstasy] has been in common usage for only the past few decades at the outside. There have not yet been adequate tests preformed to gauge the effect MDMA will have on users over a long period of time, particularly recreational users as opposed to prescription users.
One strong argument against many kinds of drug legalization is that it is well and truly possible to kill yourself with an overdose without trying very hard. The only legal RECREATIONAL drug this is possible with at the moment is alcohol, which requires a fair bit of effort to actually induce alcohol poisoning.
Note -- I am aware that impaired judgment can kill and that Alcohol may cause judgment to be impaired. Of course, getting a blowjob can also cause judgment to be impaired. Neither is really safe while driving. Care should be exercised when under the influence of any mind altering susbstance (booze, pot, sorority chicks, Bawls, etc)
Killfile(TGK)
No trees were killed in the creation of this post. However, many electrons were inconvenienced.
I'm sure that, had a few people taken the time to really think about what they were reading they would get it. Dihydrogen Monoxide is the kind of word that people scan quickly without stopping. I'm fairly certain that those council members would know that H2O is water, and even taking a few minutes to really read what they just scanned, could determine that Dihydrogen Monoxide is H2O
It's like that joke:
A plane crashes on the US/Canada border and half the people fall to the ground in the US and half in Canada.
Where do you bury the survivors?
Giving an incorrect answer does not mean that you don't know international law, it means that you, like most people, assume the good faith of the questioner and don't pay attention to the details.
But I could be wrong. I mean, if you guys say so, then you're probably right. And since millions of people bought their records, then surely I'm wrong and Hootie and the Blowfish don't suck.
bad sig...no donut.
Perhaps you've heard of it: a colorless, odorless liquid; a powerful coolant and solvent; an easily- synthesized compound which is used by industry, the military, commercial operations, and even private individuals.
Yes, we are talking about hydrogen hydroxide, also known as dihydrogen monoxide, and we are here to tell you that what you've heard about DHMO is probably not the whole truth. There are forces out there, such as the Coalition to Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide, who would seek to legislate its use and availability, placing heavy limitations on it-- and eventually, eradicating it entirely.
In the interest of fairness, we invite you to see their argument, and then we urge you to return here, to learn the truth. Their subversive agenda must not be allowed to prevail.
Hydrogen hydroxide is beneficial!
It has been shown that hydrogen hydroxide enhances the functionality, growth, and health of many forms of life-- including humans!-- and current research suggests that it has become an integral part of our planet's ecological balance. Hydrogen hydroxide is environmentally safe! Opponents of dihydrogen monoxide would have you believe that it is some kind of uber-toxin, that it wreaks caustic terror on anything it touches. This couldn't be farther from the truth; when handled properly, it enhances nature rather than destroys it, and even a worst-case scenario DHMO accident would be a trifle for the natural cycles of our world to handle. Hydrogen hydroxide is benign! The Coalition and others have popularized the label "dihydrogen monoxide" over the more chemically-accurate "hydrogen hydroxide" because they know how loaded the former name is. "Monoxide" has become synonymous with pollution, toxic gases, industrial waste-- and while hydrogen hydroxide is sometimes a factor in these problems facing our world today, it is rarely the dangerous element. Hydrogen hydroxide occurs in nature! To hear its naysayers' descriptions, one would think hydrogen hydroxide was solely the product of industrial technology; that it came from years of research in clandestine labs. This is not the case! Hydrogen hydroxide has been a part of nature longer than we have; what gives us the right to eliminate it? We need hydrogen hydroxide! Don't let an uneducated and terror-stricken mob of fanatics railroad you into giving up your right to choose!Support the use and distribution of hydrogen hydroxide in your neighborhood, city, state, and country!
Calling atheism and agnosticism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.
I've been to Aliso Viejo before. It's got the worst cell reception of any place I've ever been in my life. And not just with one carrier, with ALL carriers. Why? Because these same genius' decided that cell phone towers destroy property value so getting one approved requires a congressional oversite commitee.
Also realize that the "town" just incorporated little less then 2 years ago. So these guys are fairly new at the game.
Well, smoking one pack of cigarettes may not kill you, but if you extract the nicotine from it and inject it, you'd be dead in minutes. So it looks like we need to ban cigarettes.
do not read this line twice.
Obviously the fourth graders trying to outsmart the fifth graders.
I completely agree that basic knowledge of the English language is a necessity. Which is why it's stupid to call a straw "a negative atmosphere liquid transport device".
Everybody knows what a straw is. Not everybody should be expected to decode some linguist geek's idea of a practical joke for everyday terms. That's why we come up with names for common items...to prevent everyone calling it whatever they feel like at the moment. It enables us, as a society, to communicate with each other. If you'd rather use [arguably] more precise, scientific language to describe common ideas and terms, perhaps you should only communicate with other obvious prodigies and leave the rest of us normal people alone.
Words and language are meant to effectively communicate ideas. While descriptive language for the purpose of clarifying intent is reasonable, purposefully discombulating the English language as to disguise the idea behind the words is juvenile and mildly retarded.
And it's also quite simplistic, which is why it's nowhere near as humorous as a purported organization supporting the ban of dihydrogen monoxide. A lot of thought and effort went into that practical joke-which is why newspapers are picking up on it and laughing, too. Your straw joke has no one laughing but yourself...except, perhaps, at your notion that you are somehow intellectually superior because of it.
After I told the officers what it was, they told me that they weren't going to press charges. Mike got a week suspension, and I went back to class.
When thinking about this little episode, do you ever stop for a moment, think about TODAY'S school environment, and think, "Dear God, I'm lucky people still had common sense?"
I guess they must have asked someone, since they figured out what dihydrogen monoxide is and the scheduled vote was removed from the agenda. I'd say whatever error-checking system they have in place worked pretty well. The issue never came to a vote.
Ok, that's valid. Thanks for letting me know that...I do appreciate that and now I take back my troll comment. :)
-> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.