Posted by
michael
on from the now-better-splash-screens dept.
d3vi1 writes "Pango, Glib & GTK 2.4.0 have been released to the public. See gtk.org in general, or specifically: the announcements for pango, glib and gtk."
As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 4, Funny
...I'll be really happy that it's finally released.
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 5, Informative
FTFA:
GTK+ is a multi-platform toolkit for creating graphical user interfaces. Offering a complete set of widgets, GTK+ is suitable for projects ranging from small one-off projects to complete application suites.
GTK+ is free software and part of the GNU Project. However, the licensing terms for GTK+, the GNU LGPL, allow it to be used by all developers, including those developing proprietary software, without any license fees or royalties.
GTK+ is based on three libraries developed by the GTK+ team:
GLib is the low-level core library that forms the basis of GTK+ and GNOME. It provides data structure handling for C, portability wrappers, and interfaces for such runtime functionality as an event loop, threads, dynamic loading, and an object system.
Pango is a library for layout and rendering of text, with an emphasis on internationalization. It forms the core of text and font handling for GTK+-2.0.
The ATK library provides a set of interfaces for accessibility. By supporting the ATK interfaces, an application or toolkit can be used with such tools as screen readers, magnifiers, and alternative input devices.
GTK+ has been designed from the ground up to support a range of languages, not only C/C++. Using GTK+ from languages such as Perl and Python (especially in combination with the Glade GUI builder) provides an effective method of rapid application development.
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
Gherald
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· Score: 2, Insightful
Good rule of thumb: do not uninstall anything with 'lib' in it. Odds are it is a 'library', which means it is used by other programs!
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
sydb
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· Score: 2, Informative
One of the nice things about Debian is that if I apt-get remove something, before removing it, apt-get will tell me if it's going to have to remove other things that depend on it, and give me the chance to cancel.
Does redcarpet not do this?
-- Yours Sincerely, Michael.
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
0x0d0a
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· Score: 2, Informative
On most systems, tar is dynamically linked to glibc. It was probably glib (why on *earth* Red Carpet let him remove it without complaining about dependencies is beyond me). If he had his system set up to use gdm and kicked it into runlevel 5 at startup and the guy didn't know how to use CLI utils (I'm guessing this is the case if he's using Red Carpet), this could pretty much screw you over.
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
maw
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· Score: 2, Informative
1) Red Carpet would have said what it was going to
remove
2) Red Carpet has a CLI, very useful
3) I know how to use a CLI, and I use Red Carpet all the time. By far the easiest way to keep the numerous systems I'm responsible for updated.
--
You're a suburbanite.
Re:As soon as I figure what this things does....
by
mrogers
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· Score: 2, Informative
Even better, run debfoster occasionally. Debfoster asks you what packages you want to keep and then removes all packages (including libs) that are not required by the programs you've decided to keep.
To be honest, I believe GTK will start get much better within the win32 platform. The gnumeric guys are trying to port the spreadsheet, and they'll probably give a push to GTK developers.
Yes, but photoshop didn't give us GTK and Gnome.:P
It's the little things....
by
klipsch_gmx
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· Score: 3, Insightful
... like glib, gnet, gtk+ (hah! little! and now, brand new!) but you know what I mean - these were things that people needed, so they wrote. We all benefit, and so does linux and unix.
I guess one of the strengths of the unix development model is that my SGI and Sun boxes have all the linux libraries on them, and I don't think that's at all strange...
Unix (before linux became mainstream) didn't have as much work in the class libraries (which like it or loath it, VC++ provided quite well).... Now it does.
Re:It's the little things....
by
sydb
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· Score: 5, Insightful
All hail Lord Stallman; praise to St Ignucius.
Those "linux libraries" are not "linux" libraries, they are GNU libraries.
That's why they run on things that aren't linux.
-- Yours Sincerely, Michael.
Re:It's the little things....
by
leandrod
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· Score: 4, Informative
>
my SGI and Sun boxes have all the linux libraries
Only these aren't Linux libraries, but GNU ones.
No matter how do you call the GNU/Linux OS, these libraries are under the GNU Project umbrella, they have little to do with Linus Torvalds.
Moreover since they've been adopted by the BSDs and Unices as well, and even run on CygWin, they could also be properly called POSIX-based libraries.
-- Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
Re:It's the little things....
by
DShard
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· Score: 2, Funny
Every time you say linux libraries you make baby stallman cry.
I don't see that a good thing necessarily. I've gone through the pain of compiling programs that had dozens of libraries needed because the author was too lazy to write a single function. Having all these libraries an arm reach away has made modern programmers lazy and less knowledgeable.
This is a tragic mis-statement. What it has done is extended the power of complex, standard behaviors and routines to other programmers, allowed for centralised bug fixing as well as system wide improvments and feature enhancements. Code reuse has allowed us to build complex software in short time periods to meet ever diminishing deadlines.
Even if the use of standard libraries made programmers 'lazy' and 'less knowledgeable' ( I can't believe I'm writing this ), how does this in any way negatively impact their output provided they have access to these amazing laze inducing libraries?
It almost makes me sad to read this post. My computing forebears slaved and suffered in a living hell of replicated work and wasted maintainance time - we have these tremendous advantages at our disposal, and they are characterised as some kind of enemy of programming moral fiber.
-- One god, one market, one truth, one consumer.
Re:It's the little things....
by
Jason+Earl
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· Score: 2, Informative
Code reuse is the "good" sort of laziness. It saves time, memory (shared libs are good), and it allows for easier centralized testing. Basically code reuse is the sort of laziness that saves time and energy for everyone involved.
Not using a packaging manager is the "bad" sort of laziness.
Re:It's the little things....
by
Mysteray
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· Score: 2, Informative
This release should clear the most litigious point against GTK+ : the file dialog.
Oh really? How many people have been sued over the old file dialog? Or maybe you meant contentious.
-- Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
Re:New File Dialog
by
koh
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Please use the new one for one week, then try reverting to the old one;)
More seriously, GTK file dialog has always been click-intensive if you want to go higher the filesystem (and focus-input-clear-selection-type-slash-tab-and-use -completion is not an option for most users;)
-- Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Re:New File Dialog
by
niiler
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· Score: 5, Informative
The problem is that if you want users to only be able to select a single package type, say *.tgz, you have to spin your own dialog. The current filtering is virtually non-existant. If you do try to use it, it can hide directories that don't have the correct extension.
From the release notice:
"The new GtkFileChooser widgets provide a radically simplified and improved way for users to select files. Application writers now are provided with such capabilities such as customizable filters and previews. The filesystem access is encapsulated as a dynamically loaded module; as an example of what this allows, libgnomeui now provides a gnome-vfs backend for GtkFileChooser so that it has the same view of remote filesystems as applications such Nautilus."
This is cool stuff as it will certainly improve the perception and use of GTK.
Re:New File Dialog
by
macshit
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· Score: 2, Interesting
My god.
Please tell me that isn't really the `new file selector'.
The old selector was pretty basic, but also pretty straight-forward, and super-fast to use with the keyboard because of the great completion functionality.
This new dialog is not only much more confusing looking, but seems bloated, rather ugly, and doesn't have the text entry box -- i.e, they removed the one great feature they used to have!
I know they're attempting to appeal to inexperienced users, but they always seem to (1) do so in a way that pisses off experienced users, and (2) botch things up in the inexperienced-user case anyway.
Hopefully someone will come up with a less crappy file-selector and all the major distros (at least debian) will use it.
-- We live, as we dream -- alone....
Re:New File Dialog
by
Lussarn
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· Score: 4, Informative
If you press ctrl-l with the fileselector open you get a textentry box with tab-completion.
Re:New File Dialog
by
Tack
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· Score: 3, Insightful
I know they're attempting to appeal to inexperienced users, but they always seem to (1) do so in a way that pisses off experienced users, and (2) botch things up in the inexperienced-user case anyway.
I'm sure you like to pretend to think you know what you're talking about, but the design of this new file selector was not haphazard. There were long, arduous debates on the various, related lists about the UI and API and various use-cases for both beginner and advanced users.
Please set aside your righteous indignation and consider reading the list archives on desktop-devel-list, gtk-list, and others, and read the issues that the developers and designers have weighed and addressed in the design of the new file selector.
I'm sure nobody would say it's perfect, but you're grossly mistaken if you think it was blindly hacked together without regard to usability and API.
Jason.
Re:New File Dialog
by
Coryoth
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
Hmmm, comparing KDE with GTK I would have to say mostly it follows the usual difference between GNOME and KDE that has been apparent in the last year or two: GNOME has focussed on a slimmed down, simplified model with emphasis on clean and simple, while KDE has focussed on providing options.
To be honest, however, from what I've gathered the GNOME people have been far more influenced by Apple than KDE.
And finally - when you come down to it, it's a file selector, there;s not a whole lot innovative you can do with it. The KDE file selector doesn't look overly different from the Windows one, so really, is it any surprise that GNOME follows a vaguely similar line?
Re:New File Dialog
by
jrockway
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· Score: 2, Informative
Um, your first link is from 2000 and GTK1. That's a bit old.
-- My other car is first.
Re:New File Dialog
by
steveha
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· Score: 4, Informative
This new dialog is not only much more confusing looking, but seems bloated
I disagree. It has many new features compared to the old dialog, and they are cleanly laid out. You have bookmarks now, to quickly go to a folder you use often; there is a preview available now; and there are many different ways to quickly get to the folder you want (e.g. you can go up two folders with one click; you can go to your home directory with one click; etc.)
rather ugly
Matter of taste. That screenshot is using a theme I don't personally like, but in a more soothing theme, the new dialogs look just fine.
and doesn't have the text entry box -- i.e, they removed the one great feature they used to have!
Calm down. The text-entry box is still there if you want it. If it's not showing, as in that screenshot, Ctrl+L will make it appear. If you are a keyboard fan, you shouldn't have much trouble hitting one extra keystroke.
For a Save dialog, you don't even have to hit Ctrl+L; it's only the Open dialog that defaults to mouse-only operation.
I know they're attempting to appeal to inexperienced users, but they always seem to (1) do so in a way that pisses off experienced users, and (2) botch things up in the inexperienced-user case anyway.
During the months of discussion and testing before this release, did you provide any feedback to help them? If not, then perhaps you might want to hold back a bit on the abuse directed towards the GTK developers.
Hopefully someone will come up with a less crappy file-selector and all the major distros (at least debian) will use it.
Hey, it's free software. Fire up your favorite image editor, and start mocking up how it should look. I'm sure OSNews would publish an article about your new design, and I'm sure that someone, somewhere in the world, would code up a prototype for you. Or you could even code it yourself!
As for me, I am content with the new dialog and I'm looking forward to its arrival in Debian Unstable.
steveha
-- lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Re:New File Dialog
by
Skjellifetti
·
· Score: 3, Insightful
I'm sure you like to pretend to think you know what you're talking about, but the design of this new file selector was not haphazard. There were long, arduous debates on the various, related lists about the UI and API and various use-cases for both beginner and advanced users.
Remember, though, that a camel is a horse designed by committee. Long, arduous debates do not guarantee a successful design.
Re:New File Dialog
by
prockcore
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· Score: 2, Interesting
libgnomeui now provides a gnome-vfs backend for GtkFileChooser so that it has the same view of remote filesystems as applications such Nautilus
That rules, and it's about time. This means you can say file open, and then select a smb:// share
A while ago I was working on a gnome-vfs module that added support for itunes shares. This would mean that you could use xmms (assuming it ever gets updated for 2.0) and browse and play songs shared in itunes.
Now I think I've got some incentive to finish that module.
Re:New File Dialog
by
lorien420
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· Score: 2, Informative
xmms with 2.0: http://beepmp.sourceforge.net/
-- "[We'll be] really getting inside your head and making it an unpleasant place to be" -- Trent Reznor
Re:New File Dialog
by
.com+b4+.storm
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· Score: 3, Insightful
If you press ctrl-l with the fileselector open you get a textentry box with tab-completion.
Why can't they have it work similarly to the (new in Panther, I believe) file dialogs in OS X? In most apps now, when you have an open dialog box open, and you start typing with a / or ~ character, a little prompt pops up allowing you to type the path. This, to me, seems a bit more pleasant than having to bother with a separate key combo when I could just start typing the path and let the dialog box figure it out.
-- "Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Re:New File Dialog
by
juhaz
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
Please use the new one for one week, then try reverting to the old one;)
I kind of doubt that. The bastards have destroyed the keyboard usability for click-click-click obsessed idiots. Oh well.
More seriously, GTK file dialog has always been click-intensive if you want to go higher the filesystem
Click once on drop-down box, another click on the level you want to go to (alternatively, drag, you'll make it in one). To the other way, it's one double click per level, both are, well, just like every other file selector on the planet.
(and focus-input-clear-selection-type-slash-tab-and-use -completion is not an option for most users;)
And why is it not an option? It's not like it's hard to do or anything, of course you must know the functionality is there but after that, it takes about five seconds to learn how tab-completion works.
Oh, and it's focused and selected by default, it's type-slash-tab.
Woohoo! Let's pound on that new fileselector and see if we can break it or make suggestions (to improve it).
Congratulations to the Gtk2 developers! How's the API documentation coming along? Last time I tried learning to program with gtk2, the API reference manual was soo incomplete (incomplete function description, calling semantics, etc.)
Re:Fileselector
by
0x0d0a
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· Score: 2, Informative
I didn't have any problems with GTK per se -- though I did find insufficient documentation on auxilary projects like pango.
A quick glance indicates that the pango documentation has fleshed out nicely.
They have been using the new file selector in the Fedora Core 2 test1 release, which was supposed to freeze today for the test2 release. Very nice. Hopefully this means GNOME 2.6 will stabilize and be release in time to include them both in Fedora Core 2.
Re:file selector
by
RichiP
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· Score: 2, Informative
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
Abcd1234
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· Score: 2, Interesting
Yeah, it's called turning on the feature in your panel that collects all the window buttons for a given app into a single button with a menu. Now quit trolling and move on. This issue has been beaten to death over and over and over and...
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
Jeffrey+Baker
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· Score: 3, Informative
Sounds like a window manager problem. My window manager (metacity) groups all GIMP windows together.
Re:KDE compatibility?
by
AuMatar
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· Score: 5, Informative
As long as you have the KDE libraries installed, it doesn't matter what your desktop is.
--
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
I'd say it's nice that GTK is catching up with some of the QT/KDE features.
Unified dropdown box (editable and non-editable), file selection dialog with custom URLs (think KDE's fish:// samba:// webdav:// etc), menus and toolbars sharing common actions, enhanced right-to-left language support. This is an excellent example of open source software at work. One competitor has cool features, the other competitor integrates those features and noone is crying about patents, copyrighted interfaces, intellectual property or trade secret theft.
I'd like to see KDE take some of the Gnome project's ideas and pursue a more rigid user interface guideline (anyone see kalarm?) as well as support for disabilities (although the default font size after a Gentoo KDE-3.2 compile will please even the blind).
GTK Announcement, not GIMP announcment
by
ortcutt
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· Score: 2, Informative
It has dockable windows. This is an announcement for GTK 2.4. I don't know whether GIMP 2.0 will use GTK 2.4.
Re:GTK Announcement, not GIMP announcment
by
swtaarrs
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· Score: 2, Informative
This is an announcement for GTK 2.4. I don't know whether GIMP 2.0 will use GTK 2.4.
GIMP 2.0 will use whatever 2.x Gtk+ you have installed, they're all binary compatible.
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
Abcd1234
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Because, as you don't seem to understand, having a widget toolkit implement a friggin' *windowing subsystem* in order to fit your MDI world view is exceedingly stupid. MDI is broken. User case studies have shown that it confuses users more than it helps them. Get over it.
not so
by
Anonymous Coward
·
· Score: 4, Informative
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (via Gnome Dictionary, incendentally)
Litigious Li*ti"gious, a. L. litigiosus, fr. litigium dispute, quarrel, fr. litigare: cf. F. litigieux. See Litigation.... 2. Subject to contention; disputable; controvertible; debatable; doubtful; precarious.
I'd say that definition fits. Try using a dictionary next time, smartass.
You are confusing glib with glibc (aka libc6). glib is a library with some higher level stuff than the kernel-user glue that is libc.
Jeroen
-- Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
Abcd1234
·
· Score: 2, Informative
Your panel should provide an option to configure which apps are collected into single buttons and which aren't. If your panel doesn't have this feature, make a feature request... it should be quite trivial to implement. It's still not a Gimp problem.
GTK+ has been designed from the ground up to support a range of languages, not only C/C++. Using GTK+ from languages such as Perl and Python (especially in combination with the
Glade GUI builder) provides an effective method of rapid application development.
How is Glade2 development coming along in terms of supporting Gtk2 2.4? I visited their website and there doesn't seem to be any mention of it.
Re:Glade2
by
WombatControl
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· Score: 4, Informative
Glade2 development has stopped, and there's a full rewrite of Glade going on. The Glade3 code is currently in CVS, and will feature badly-needed features like redo/undo.
My guess is that Glade3 will support the new GTK 2.4 widgets.
Re:C++ Interface?
by
daserver
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· Score: 2, Informative
Re:So..
by
Anonymous Coward
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· Score: 2, Interesting
me too. i had to make two separate sets of entries in XF86Config... one set to use my tablet as a mouse, the others to use it as a tablet in gimp. but once that configuration hell was over, it's only locked up once in many months. of course it shouldn't freeze at all:)
GTK-- (aka Gtkmm) is the official set of C++ bindings for GTK. (GTK+ is the official set of C bindings._ There have been some other projects to produce C++ bindings for GTK, but AFAIK you would normally use GTK-- if you were using a C++ interface to GTK.
Is there some reason you want to avoid using gtk--?
Xft and fontconfig use the same backends - whats that mean to you? - better fonts - everything GTK now plays the same game.
Fonts and character shapes can take a scripts 'hints' about a font into account - we win, the font creator wins - its about the best of everyones world.
Using bi-directional text is not forced by the application - it can be extracted or 'hinted' from the original source file itself.
GLIB:
GLIB update to use unicode 4.0 - many, many people benefit.
GLIB correctly recovers children processes.
GRandom is better at seeding. But not cryptographically secure. Yet.
The threading library with GLIB is now "operation or not" on integers and pointers.
There is a way to specify an OO 'singleton' or 'once initialisation'
Extra macros for GObject type writers
Properties can be added to interfaces (verbatim copied)
Private data within an instance can contain private data/references within and object (its not clean what this means in a C context, but I think they mean that it's not exposed).
GTK takes all of the above features, and uses those to make a fantastic release.
Lets give these people time,
They need it.
Re:GTK release of 2.4
by
IamTheRealMike
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· Score: 4, Informative
The threading library with GLIB is now "operation or not" on integers and pointers.
I think you mean the threading library now supports atomic operations - ie you can do some simple integer/pointer manipulation without needing a mutex in a thread safe fasion. They've introduced equivalents to InterlockedIncrement, InterlockedCompareExchange etc in Win32 and very useful they are too.
Re:KDE compatibility?
by
pe1rxq
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Nah... Bloat would be if your program would actually need them both and a third redundant dependancy is introduced in the service pack. Gtk programs only use a subset of all those installed libraries, they are not bloated. Likewise QT programs don't use all those libraries so it is not bloated either. Compare the space needed to install two complete desktop environments including several office suites with just one typical windows install and you will see which one is bloated.
Jeroen
-- Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
Abcd1234
·
· Score: 4, Insightful
Okay, you don't get it. That's okay, why would you? After all, you clearly don't understand how X works...
Implementing MDI is highly *non-trivial*. It requires Gtk to implement a full windowing toolkit, along with everything that entails. So, what you're saying is that you want the developers to waste thousands of man-hours implementing something that is, in the end, broken by design? Yeah, brilliant idea.
Hey, I got an idea. Why don't *you* go and implement MDI in Gtk. Then, when you're done, fix up The GIMP to use it, and voila! You'll be the hero of those "thousands of users"! Have fun!
Re:Any commerical companies using these?
by
sydb
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· Score: 3, Insightful
Re:C++ Interface?
by
Erwos
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· Score: 4, Insightful
Yes, you still do.
However, I really wouldn't raise my nose at GTKmm - it's actually VERY nicely done, and for someone who was raised on C++ and the STL (ie, most coders coming out of college now), it's much more intuitive than some other toolkits.
Trust me - GTKmm is no sacrifice at all.
-Erwos
-- Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
Re:Separate windows are fine
by
jonadab
·
· Score: 2, Interesting
> The real question is: why are the standard window managers for GNOME and > KDE (metacity and kwin) not implementing something like this
Not sure about kwin, but the official metacity project slogan is "no features" (apparently). A lot of Gnome users swap it out for a different window manager such as sawfish or Enlightenment. Fortunately, the architecture of Gnome makes this possible (though the wm in question has to support certain Gnome things to get everything working properly (e.g., the panel task list, having certain panels be avoided by maximize, and so on), which does limit exactly which window managers you can choose; you can _theoretically_ choose any wm, but if you choose one that doesn't support Gnome stuff won't work; sawfish and Enlightenment are the major alternatives that handle Gnome stuff right, that I know about; there may be one or two others).
-- Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Re:Still doesn't compare to OS X
by
jonadab
·
· Score: 2, Insightful
> 3) You need to access everything from the keyboard - with no third party > extensions, which widget set do you pick, OS X's or GTK+?
Actually, for that, the Win32 widget set rather rocks. Unfortunately, it's not very portable.
-- Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
Re:Any commerical companies using these?
by
Too+Much+Noise
·
· Score: 5, Informative
not listed so far: Opera (QT) Adobe Photoshop Album (QT)
I thought the same thing about Linux font rendering until I installed Microsoft's core fonts and a TrueType font server on my Linux box (apt-get install msttcorefonts xfsttright now if you're running Debian). The font rendering in Linux is absolutely fine, it's just the shortage of good manually-hinted fonts that makes things look awful. Anti-aliasing is not the solution - GTK+1.2 looks better than GTK+2 with decent fonts installed, because the fonts have nice sharp outlines.
The problem is that the freetype font rendering library for Linux is unable to use font hints because the required algorithms are patented (by Apple, which seems to like FOSS products unless they encroach on its desktop turf).
The patented hinting algorithms are in the source but #def'ed out by default, you could recompile if you want to. Most people are fine with the replacement auto-hinting though.
Letters have different thicknesses, some things, like the Times New Roman number "2" at about 10pt has a middle part that almost completely disappears. I always hear constantly about how "better" the font rendering is supposed to be from guys like you, but I have never, ever seen it.
I have tried various distros, even compiling things myself with the interpeter turned on, etc. It still looks flat-out awful, particularly italics.
Sorry, they are NOT easier on the eyes than Windows XP. That's absurd and a flat-out lie--outside of Slashdot, everyone acknowledges OS X and Windows have much superior font rendering. Using my Gentoo laptop for more than a few hours gives me headaches, and I've tried font after font, including the Windows fonts.
This is not a dig at the Freetype project composed of volunteers. But to say it's actually "better" than Windows is blind fanboy-ism.
It really depends on your setup. I've got a 133 dpi LCD, and I can definitely say it looks better. Cleartype hints far too aggressively for a display that has that many pixels to play with. For a medium-res CRT, I'd rather have non-anti-aliased, hinted output anyway. If you've got that bytecode hinter on, you'll get identical output (pixel-for-pixel) in that case. Screenshot of my desktop Note, unless you've got a 133 dpi display or higher, the fonts will look unusually large.
In any case, I think FreeType's anti-aliased output at medium resolutions is actually quite good. Read one of my rants on OSNews (search for title "Font comparo thread"). Note the attached screenshot, taken at a more sane resolution.
-- A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
You know, I hear over and over about how "flawed" MDI is supposed to be. People like you get really condescending about it for some reason. No need to be hostile--it's just some free graphics app on the net.
MDI doesn't seem to have stopped Photoshop's monstrous success over the decades, now has it?
Now, I don't know about you, but when I sit someone down to a new graphics app, and they're instantly confused with all the floating windows that don't appear to be attached to any particular application, and then they go over to Paint Shop Pro and do just fine, it tells me something.
The 3 monkeys (was New File Dialog)
by
stef49
·
· Score: 2, Funny
Take 1 enginer, 1 'end' user and 1 monkey and put them in front of the new GTK file chooser with a simple task: Open the file.bashrc.
- the end-user will give up after a few minutes first because it's obvious that there is no '.bashrc' available in the list.
- the enginer will complain, curse after the GTK file-selector and will eventually start KDE or a xterm.
- the monkey is be the only one to succeed because he is the most likely to type CTRL-L by mistake.
Slashdot Mirror
...I'll be really happy that it's finally released.
Until this makes it into the win32 version of the GIMP? Or will this make any difference?
... like glib, gnet, gtk+ (hah! little! and now, brand new!) but you know what I mean - these were things that people needed, so they wrote. We all benefit, and so does linux and unix.
I guess one of the strengths of the unix development model is that my SGI and Sun boxes have all the linux libraries on them, and I don't think that's at all strange...
Unix (before linux became mainstream) didn't have as much work in the class libraries (which like it or loath it, VC++ provided quite well).... Now it does.
...Gnome 2.6, due out March 22nd.
This release should clear the most litigious point against GTK+ : the file dialog.
Recent screenshots on gnomedesktop.org seem to prove they did the job right.
However, anyone knows if the WIN32 is far behind or up to date with this release ?
Karma cannot be described by words alone.
Woohoo! Let's pound on that new fileselector and see if we can break it or make suggestions (to improve it).
Congratulations to the Gtk2 developers! How's the API documentation coming along? Last time I tried learning to program with gtk2, the API reference manual was soo incomplete (incomplete function description, calling semantics, etc.)
They have been using the new file selector in the Fedora Core 2 test1 release, which was supposed to freeze today for the test2 release. Very nice. Hopefully this means GNOME 2.6 will stabilize and be release in time to include them both in Fedora Core 2.
Yeah, it's called turning on the feature in your panel that collects all the window buttons for a given app into a single button with a menu. Now quit trolling and move on. This issue has been beaten to death over and over and over and...
Sounds like a window manager problem. My window manager (metacity) groups all GIMP windows together.
As long as you have the KDE libraries installed, it doesn't matter what your desktop is.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
says the n00b: "it's good to see that GTK is catching up with the kernel version."
says the 1337: "..."
Esoteric reference.
GIMP Mailing List Post
It has dockable windows. This is an announcement for GTK 2.4. I don't know whether GIMP 2.0 will use GTK 2.4.
Because, as you don't seem to understand, having a widget toolkit implement a friggin' *windowing subsystem* in order to fit your MDI world view is exceedingly stupid. MDI is broken. User case studies have shown that it confuses users more than it helps them. Get over it.
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
...
(via Gnome Dictionary, incendentally)
Litigious Li*ti"gious, a. L. litigiosus, fr. litigium dispute, quarrel, fr. litigare: cf. F. litigieux. See Litigation.
2. Subject to contention; disputable; controvertible; debatable; doubtful; precarious.
I'd say that definition fits. Try using a dictionary next time, smartass.
You are confusing glib with glibc (aka libc6).
glib is a library with some higher level stuff than the kernel-user glue that is libc.
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Your panel should provide an option to configure which apps are collected into single buttons and which aren't. If your panel doesn't have this feature, make a feature request... it should be quite trivial to implement. It's still not a Gimp problem.
How is Glade2 development coming along in terms of supporting Gtk2 2.4? I visited their website and there doesn't seem to be any mention of it.
It is: gtkmm.
me too. i had to make two separate sets of entries in XF86Config... one set to use my tablet as a mouse, the others to use it as a tablet in gimp. but once that configuration hell was over, it's only locked up once in many months. of course it shouldn't freeze at all :)
GTK-- (aka Gtkmm) is the official set of C++ bindings for GTK. (GTK+ is the official set of C bindings._ There have been some other projects to produce C++ bindings for GTK, but AFAIK you would normally use GTK-- if you were using a C++ interface to GTK.
Is there some reason you want to avoid using gtk--?
May we never see th
For anyone who has been following the good work that the gnome developers have been doing, its starting to look like vindication.
Ok, enough of the back slapping, lets see whats on offer: (PS - release notes for GTK at Gnome 2.6 update release notes
Font Changes:- Xft and fontconfig use the same backends - whats that mean to you? - better fonts - everything GTK now plays the same game.
- Fonts and character shapes can take a scripts 'hints' about a font into account - we win, the font creator wins - its about the best of everyones world.
- Using bi-directional text is not forced by the application - it can be extracted or 'hinted' from the original source file itself.
GLIB:- GLIB update to use unicode 4.0 - many, many people benefit.
- GLIB correctly recovers children processes.
- GRandom is better at seeding. But not cryptographically secure. Yet.
- The threading library with GLIB is now "operation or not" on integers and pointers.
- There is a way to specify an OO 'singleton' or 'once initialisation'
- Extra macros for GObject type writers
- Properties can be added to interfaces (verbatim copied)
- Private data within an instance can contain private data/references within and object (its not clean what this means in a C context, but I think they mean that it's not exposed).
GTK takes all of the above features, and uses those to make a fantastic release. Lets give these people time, They need it.Nah... Bloat would be if your program would actually need them both and a third redundant dependancy is introduced in the service pack.
Gtk programs only use a subset of all those installed libraries, they are not bloated.
Likewise QT programs don't use all those libraries so it is not bloated either.
Compare the space needed to install two complete desktop environments including several office suites with just one typical windows install and you will see which one is bloated.
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
Okay, you don't get it. That's okay, why would you? After all, you clearly don't understand how X works...
Implementing MDI is highly *non-trivial*. It requires Gtk to implement a full windowing toolkit, along with everything that entails. So, what you're saying is that you want the developers to waste thousands of man-hours implementing something that is, in the end, broken by design? Yeah, brilliant idea.
Hey, I got an idea. Why don't *you* go and implement MDI in Gtk. Then, when you're done, fix up The GIMP to use it, and voila! You'll be the hero of those "thousands of users"! Have fun!
The Kompany do proprietary QT products.
Don't know about GTK.
But please: proprietary software is evil
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
now I gotta update all that mess again...
gah.. a linux user's work is never done.
Yes, you still do.
However, I really wouldn't raise my nose at GTKmm - it's actually VERY nicely done, and for someone who was raised on C++ and the STL (ie, most coders coming out of college now), it's much more intuitive than some other toolkits.
Trust me - GTKmm is no sacrifice at all.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
> The real question is: why are the standard window managers for GNOME and
> KDE (metacity and kwin) not implementing something like this
Not sure about kwin, but the official metacity project slogan is "no features"
(apparently). A lot of Gnome users swap it out for a different window manager
such as sawfish or Enlightenment. Fortunately, the architecture of Gnome makes
this possible (though the wm in question has to support certain Gnome things
to get everything working properly (e.g., the panel task list, having certain
panels be avoided by maximize, and so on), which does limit exactly which
window managers you can choose; you can _theoretically_ choose any wm, but
if you choose one that doesn't support Gnome stuff won't work; sawfish and
Enlightenment are the major alternatives that handle Gnome stuff right, that
I know about; there may be one or two others).
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
> 3) You need to access everything from the keyboard - with no third party
> extensions, which widget set do you pick, OS X's or GTK+?
Actually, for that, the Win32 widget set rather rocks. Unfortunately, it's
not very portable.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
not listed so far:
Opera (QT)
Adobe Photoshop Album (QT)
I thought the same thing about Linux font rendering until I installed Microsoft's core fonts and a TrueType font server on my Linux box (apt-get install msttcorefonts xfstt right now if you're running Debian). The font rendering in Linux is absolutely fine, it's just the shortage of good manually-hinted fonts that makes things look awful. Anti-aliasing is not the solution - GTK+1.2 looks better than GTK+2 with decent fonts installed, because the fonts have nice sharp outlines.
Letters have different thicknesses, some things, like the Times New Roman number "2" at about 10pt has a middle part that almost completely disappears. I always hear constantly about how "better" the font rendering is supposed to be from guys like you, but I have never, ever seen it.
I have tried various distros, even compiling things myself with the interpeter turned on, etc. It still looks flat-out awful, particularly italics.
Sorry, they are NOT easier on the eyes than Windows XP. That's absurd and a flat-out lie--outside of Slashdot, everyone acknowledges OS X and Windows have much superior font rendering. Using my Gentoo laptop for more than a few hours gives me headaches, and I've tried font after font, including the Windows fonts.
This is not a dig at the Freetype project composed of volunteers. But to say it's actually "better" than Windows is blind fanboy-ism.
You know, I hear over and over about how "flawed" MDI is supposed to be. People like you get really condescending about it for some reason. No need to be hostile--it's just some free graphics app on the net.
MDI doesn't seem to have stopped Photoshop's monstrous success over the decades, now has it?
Now, I don't know about you, but when I sit someone down to a new graphics app, and they're instantly confused with all the floating windows that don't appear to be attached to any particular application, and then they go over to Paint Shop Pro and do just fine, it tells me something.
Take 1 enginer, 1 'end' user and 1 monkey and put them in front of the new GTK file chooser with a simple task: Open the file .bashrc.
- the end-user will give up after a few minutes first because it's obvious that there is no '.bashrc' available in the list.
- the enginer will complain, curse after the GTK file-selector and will eventually start KDE or a xterm.
- the monkey is be the only one to succeed because he is the most likely to type CTRL-L by mistake.