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Microsoft Plans to Create Local Language Software
zensufi writes "CNET News has a story stating that Microsoft has announced plans for a program to help governments produce local language versions of key Microsoft applications, giving the software giant a hedge against a growing international threat from open-source software." The piece explains: 'The Local Language Program will provide local and regional governments with "language interface packs" that government and academic developers can use to produce localized versions of the Windows XP operating system and Office 2003 productivity package.'
...pause... for 1000 nerds to think up devious MS policies :)
I wonder if somewhere down the line MS will turn around and lock up users into only opening files made under a certain language something a-la DVD "scheme" (yea dual use term that word scheme). So user Wong in China creates files in China to send to his brother Ming in America. Will user Wong also have to buy an addon somewhere in the future?
MoFscker
Right. Acknowledging that OSS has a decent international presence, MS is trying to compete, hence the "hedge" comment.
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
Unfortunately MS fails to realize that simple translation may not be enough. Take Office v.X on the Mac for example. It's lack of full RTL and Unicode support means some languages can't be supported, even if just the interface is translated. Rubi for Japanese is another language feature that may require access to the source code itself. Not to mention other tasks like modifying their English grammar checker to support new languages...
Merely providing the ability to make a "Language Pack" and translate the strings on the screen does not provide enough access to really support foreign languages. Without full access to the source code, foreign languages will still remain second class citizens
ed
Microsoft should have no problem localizing in Rwanda ;)
Out of curiousity... how does that work? Does an error message (say, "file not found") point to message #XXX, which is then just referenced in the language specific file? Is it that simple?
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
"Give them some credit where it is due. Microsoft has always pushed multi language support at every level long before OSS was a serious contender."
Isn't it cool how profit can drive a company to make their products more accessible to break into new markets?
"Derp de derp."
sounds like a good opportunity for some mistranslations, too
>:D
When Alpha was struggling, MS helped kill it by porting only part of its portfolio, and making difficult for other people to port theirs.
Now, MS WXP and MS Office... what about countless other apps? And is it as easy for ISVs to translate theirs? Then, can they ship a binary with multilanguage built in as in POSIX systems?
And even if people could translate all that mass of software, will they do proprietary software vendors' work? Perhaps for MS Office and WXP, but I doubt for anything else.
In the end, we still have an edge here. MS actually progressed just a little.
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin
The Amiga did this over a decade ago with it's "locale" settings. Anybody could produce a localised translation of application menus etc. In fact there are hundreds of such "locale" settings on aminet.
Hmm I'm not sure about that, but anyway, Linux-on-the-desktop has not done localisation very well. It seems to be one seriously strenuous effort to translate KDE to another language, let alone the actual applications. The problem with Microsoft's approach is it will only yield translations into official languages.
Syllable's (freesoftware desktop OS, fairly mature, hardly anyone has heard of it I know) translation system will work along the lines of having external content catalogues. This means both the OS and software apps won't need to be altered or recompiled in any way in order for text and images etc to be translated to another language. You could create a new translation and have the app switch languages without having to restart the program. This is good because you won't need a programmer to perform translations, and there's a great deal of fexability in the system. You could create your own contructed language and character set, translate the OS and all your apps, and just use it.
why does localization in .NET suck so hard? compared to how Java handles internationalization (not perfect by the way), the support in .NET feels weak. In fact the project I'm on now has completely foregone internationalization because it isn't sufficient. Instead, there's development teams in other countries, who localize it for other languages. Often, they end up rewriting most of the application. Internationalization is hard and isn't simple, but having a good framework isn't just supporting Unicode. Supporting Unicode is the minimum requirement.
I read an account in 1999(?) detailing how the government of Iceland wrote to M$ about when they expected to develop packages to run the OS in Icelandic. M$ replied "Well, hmm, never". Not enough by itself, but I just remember that this was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
Ebonics anyone? Does an Ebonics version exist at all for any office pack?
Microsoft is far ahead of open source projects in terms of language support in products BUT...
There is usually a version in your local language.
Microsoft Windows China version compleate with anti-Chinese slurs.
One of the first things local governments do with open source is translate the error messages and directions into something the staff can understand.
American companys are legendary for exporting crap. They don't even begin to understand local sensibilitys and insult or piss off everyone.
Microsoft is known for ignoring the sensabilitys of people INSIDE THE UNITED STATES and end up insulting or pissing off anyone who dosen't use Microsofts products and a larg part of the people that do.
American trampling of local culture plus Microsofts apathy twords anything not directly related to Microsoft culture equals an unholy nightmare in the error messages, system prompts, docs and anything else any Windows user has to deal with on a daily basis.
American:
Hit Ctrl+Alt+Del to log in
Vogon:
Punch the guy next to you to urinate on the system
Annother example: "All your base are belonging to us"
It sounds like the bad guy is saying "We captured all your military instalations" or something like that.
Now would YOU want to deal with "All your base" every freaking time you logged in?
And that presumming you didn't bumble into a cultrally significant notion.
Picture a Vogon pushing Control then Alt then Del.. not all at once but in sequence as if Control, Alt and Del were each letters to a word.
(Did I mention Vogons are stupid?)
Purely becouse of the context...
Microsoft is offering to let local governments to do the translations instead of doing it themselfs to address cultrally significant issues in the way things are put.
Open Source projects automatcly do this becouse the translations are handled by locals.
On the other hand....
Yes most Open source projects don't support more than one language for lack of someone in a diffrent locality than the project leader.
I don't actually exist.
For instance, if China were to start using OSS, that would mean that IE would not be dominant browser. This would mean that web designer would not just be able to buy a copy of Frontpage and use the templates to design a site, but would have use tools that could create effective content for open standards compliant browsers. Many of these designers might choose to leave MS OS and tools altogether and just use OSS. This could lead to defections in other areas as MS protocols become less dominant.
It is quite arguable that MS can afford to give away software to every person in Asia just to make sure that it's monopoly is maintained. This however would be dumping, and illegal. So, like in the 80's, they turn a blind eye to unlicensed software until the day they decide they need the money.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Years ago I sold a package called Win/V that allowed you to run native Japanese applications on Windows for Workgroups. This was significant since there was never a Japanese WfW but the Japanese users wanted the networking features.
What made Win/V different is that it didn't just modify the interface to support a different language as the MultiLingual Packs do, but added the underlying code that localized versions of applications need. This way you could run the Japanese version of Excel for example and get all the local features like rubi and Japanese dates but still be running on an English version of the OS. Embassies loved this system as the underlying OS and network would be supported from the home country.
Macs have had this for years with their Language Kits and I don't think Windows has ever matched it. What happens if you try to install Japanese Office 2K on English XP?
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Getting really good grammar checking in English is difficult enough and it's a shame that other "lesser" languages like Estonian don't have tools anywhere near the caliber of those for the English language. Even if MS made all of the rules of the system are made available for folks to work within, I'd put a bet on the fact that there's some language that just can't conform to those rules. To really work with languages it may be required to extend the underlying system, not simply conform to it. Not to mention debugging such development without some type of source code/symbols/dev tools would be hell...
ed
Aside from costs, I think knowledge of the language is good reason for them to let local programmers write the software in their own lanuage
And considering how much Microsoft stands to make when a whole new market opens up, it might consider paying a few of those local programmers for their time.
I'm not saying that anything about this plan is stupid or even dishonest. Frankly, it's a pretty smart move, but it's also arrogant and greedy. And that's pretty much par for the course.
With a pair of Chinese and Japanese software companies developing a version of Linux for the Asian market I'm sure that M$ can already see their potential market shrinking. I'm also pretty sure that many at M$ are worried about the desktop deal that Sun has struck with China. So M$ tries to counter these moves with a language pack? I'm sure that M$ is going to have to try a lot harder than that!
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Actually, it's not.
The old myth that Columbus thought he was in India when he came to America, is just that, a myth. Not true.
The fact is, the term Indian is actually more accurate than most people think it is.
First of all, there are no Native Americans. Never have been. Every human on earth originally came from Africa if you believe that whole evolution theory... The Indians originally came here from Asia.
The following is from George Carlin's Braindroppings, as it explains the origin of the term Indian a lot better than I can:
Native Americans are neither, and the term is an ironic slight against the people that many of us piously try to protect by revising our language. In fact, this term was invented by the Federal Department of the Interior in 1970 when they were catching grief from some Indians who were discovering their tribal identities (remember Alcatraz and Wounded Knee?). Why would an Indian feel good about an ethnic label that refers to one of their European conquerors?
Columbus did *not* call them "Indians" due to his navigational error. He called them Indians, because our Italian explorer tried expressing in Spanish his characterization of them as "Una gente in Dios." A people in God. in Dios. Indians. It's a perfectly noble and respectable term. At least he did better than our government.
-- This sig for rent.
They'll be lucky if they can even keep their government officials using it for more than 6 months without some sort of very serious repurcussions/rewards.
Where? Perhapse you'd like to post links to the "first bunch" of crying-foul posts? And keep a close eye out for claims of monopolistic or anit-competative behavior. After all, that's what the "insightful" post claimed would be the complaint (I think).
What I've seen are quips about translating clippy and the infamous BSOD. I've seen claims that this "advancement" is a reaction to Linux's current abilities. And I've seen the question of whether this kind of community effort / pro-bono work should be done for commercial software with premium fees.
So here's the counter-issue for you. The "problem" being highlighted here doesn't exist. It was a knee-jerk reaction to criticism often generated by a company who, frankly, deserves criticism.
Now - I will agree there are complaints I disagree with. Heck - there are compliments I disagree with. But please. Do us all a favor. Attack the issue at hand. Avoid sounding like the zealots you decry.
Even when you use small words.
Excellent point about KDE. Just adding that you can even translate KDE apps to whatever you want on your own using a GUI app called KBabel. I also disagree that Microsoft is way ahead in internationalization - it's not. Most areas I had experience in like adjusting keyboard layouts, application support for international characters has been generally more consistent on my Linux systems than XPs.
It sounds incredible to me that Microsoft actually tries to get governments to translate their software for them free, while Open Source localization groups are desperate with getting governments to participate or provide even little funding.
Perhaps we would need to organize better?
For some time, I've been trying to find out if there exists a collective effort for localizing open source software, which covers both all softwares and all locales.
Currently, we seem to have two types of localization efforts: software-specific and national efforts. For example, the major OSS softwares, such as KDE, Gnome, and OpenOffice have organized translation efforts. Then there are some national efforts. For example, in Finland, we have organized a joint national effort as a working group, which gathers the different Finnish localization teams together and aims to provide them publicity, recruiting, funding, other resources, and generally a channel for cooperation. We currently have KDE, Gnome, OpenOffice, Debian, and some other translation teams working together on common issues such as quality, vocabulary, and tools. I have noticed that there exists also some other national or language-specific efforts, such as for Arabic and South-African languages. However, I haven't found any cooperation effort between these national efforts, where we could participate.
So, what I'm looking for is a universal effort that covers both all the different localization projects for different softwares, and for the different languages (or nationalities). There exists some more-or-less generic efforts, such as the Translation Project, but those which I've seen cover only a limited set of software products (TP covers some 100 but it's still rather limited).
If you know about such an universal cover effort, please tell me.
Otherwise, perhaps the time is ripe for starting to plan for such an effort. I'm not talking about any massive organization, just a loose, light-weight organization that would serve as a center for information sharing and cooperation. Well, basicly a well-structured web portal would suffice.
I begun to wonder about this last fall, when I started designing a portal-based information system for the Finnish national localization effort and did preliminary organization analysis. I noticed that many of the tools we would need would also be useful for others. Well, of course it may be difficult to unify such tools between different efforts, as different efforts have their own preferences, but it would be nice to get to know what other efforts need and what they could contribute.
Our Finnish national effort is still slowly forming, but we are quite active in certain areas such as quality assurance. We have had one joint workshop event so far and have planned to have one twice a year (next one is scheduled for May). Last year, we produced a 26 page report about the status of different Finnish localization projects. We have also tried to make contacts with translation departments of universities. Our effort for getting funding is still in infancy.
We would very much like to share "patterns" of organizing national and software-specific efforts and serving the actual translation teams.
So, is there anyone interested in world domination?
It's I18n and L10n, because there are 18 letters between the I and the N in Internationalization and 10 letters between the L and the N in Localization. There is no such thing as L18n.
Also, what you're talking about has got nothing to do with localization itself, it's an issue of incomplete internationalization (i.e. the underlying support for localization) within the OS.
What with them having argued so strenously (in USia and EUia) that these are "an integral part of the OS". Let's see how that assertion pans out in practice.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
The current localization efforts are so lame. I want my language skins. Please...
Jacek Artymiak
freelance consultant and writer
master of many a page
After all these years there is still no English version of Windows or Office.
Office has an English dictionary option but the application itself is in American (U.S. English). This is the nearest a Microsoft application comes to English.
60 million speakers of English in the UK and no local translation! We still have to put up with "favorites" and "color", while even the few Welsh speakers get their own version!
Crazy!
MS-Windows and MS-Office are still MS' only two cash cows. MS' high market share is the result of choices made by hardware manufacturers, which make up 90% of Windows sales and 68% of Word and Excel sales. Unlike MS-Windows which gets 90% of its sales from OEMs, only 68% of MS-Office sales come from OEMs, presumably leaving 32% who buy it separately. This 32% has a choice, at least in theory. Hardware sales have been flat for a while and if the U.S. does more outsourcing or tips into a full depression, then it will be flat for a while longer. There is the risk for MS - market choice and flat hardware sales.
If you look back at the 1980's and 1990's there where many options for productivity packages, even in different languages. These have all been crushed through various monkey business. For example, Quattro and Lotus 1-2-3 weakened after MS-Excel and MS-Word started being bundled together, though at the time both Quattro and 1-2-3 appear to have been much better products. So the choice since then whether you buy a different version depends on which versions you can read. Which in turn has pretty much limited which version of files you write ... until recently.
OpenOffice.org not only has an open, well-documented file format, but also runs on multiple platforms and has full support for many languages. All of which means less work over time, which means lower cost over time, both of which are highly attractive to both businesses and public agencies.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
There is nothing monopolistic about making your product available to as many people/organizations/governments that you can.
Even if you do it at a net loss to your company?
You could call that "generating goodwill" and I'm sure there will be people calling it just that. Company shareholders will tolerate some goodwill as long as they can be convinced it translates into the bottom line at some point. OTOH, I could take a fair hit of ill-will as a company as long as I was making billions of dollars per year in profits, so goodwill is only so valuable.
But having been through the school of TANSTAAFL I would be suspicious of a profit-making entity just giving something away. They don't do it without a well thought-out profit-minded reason.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
...I'm just wondering when they're going to openly admit that to themselves and the public.
For years I've been wondering why Microsoft doesn't join the corporate fray of OSS, on the way mixing it with their branding and doing a branding variant of the 'embrace and extend' thing they're into. After all, nobody gave a damn about licensing until MS started ranting about the GPL being anti-american and at the same time screwing up their licensing as to piss everybody off.
Anyway, I've narrowed in on some optinal answers to this question:
1) MS is to big, slow and stupid and the chiefs are to Windows-focused that they don't see the light.
--I don't think this is the real truth. It fits into a typical MS rant and would fit to a megacorporation the size of MS, but considering that they actually are a software company, and a quite succesfull one I think this answer is to simple.
2) MS couldn't care less. Even if they only hopp on in 2 years from now when they've milked the last proprietary cow, they'll just throw in a few billion, by the one or other Linux company, mix in a little DirectX and Exchange for Linux and squish RH, SuSE and Madrake along the way.
--This seems more likely. But then again, if that's their plan, they would have started this much earlier. And I dont think they could gain foothold any more, neither now or 2 years from now.
3) The MS revenue stream relys so much on markting hype and exclusive Windows branding that MS has no other choice than to take up the fight, even if they're going to lose in the end anyway. They'd rather shoot themselves than admit that OSS has them by the balls and start an ordered retreat out of the proprietary software market in the long run. Taking every money they can get on the way and pushing forth into embedded and home entertainment systems.
--I would think this to be the best answer. Yet even this way it's a dead end for MS as a monopoly. No way in hell can they stand up to a Sony & Matsushita tag team who've just decided to use Linux as their prime embeded system for home entertainment - because it's cheaper and has less lock-in.
Either way you put it, MS as the master-blaster-of-all-things-Computer is done with. They'll either manage to get the curve into a major service and embeded vendor and strengthen their strong branding in that area or they're going to end up like Commodore or something simular.
My 2 Eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca