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Video-Game Publishers Outsource Development
randomErr writes "According to a San Jose Mercury News article reprinted at the Miami Herald: 'Mark Vange is in the vanguard of globalizing the video-game industry. He employs 30 game developers in St. Petersburg, Russia, who have worked on everything from flight simulators to dragon-fighting games. 'We can get the work done for half the cost that it takes in the U.S.,' said Vange, president of Ketsujin Studios. Similar outsourcing of video-game production is being done in places like China, India, Vietnam and parts of Eastern Europe. California game developers, who are the creative force behind a $10 billion industry in the U.S. market, view the trend with a combination of fear and anticipation'."
I seem to recall that Sim City was ported to the Macintosh by a group in Russia and that a significant amount of the original programming was outsourced to Russia as well? Given that the sim was incredibly slow on a Pentium 3 I had and not that much faster on an old G4, I wondered about the "cleanliness" of the code that went into the sim. There certainly is a huge pool of programming talent in Russia (at least in Kiev that I know of where estimates range from 10-16% of the populace having CS skills), so perhaps the sim code was simply so big that it resulted in the slow performance?
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
Yes, I think that's how many of us feel.. Less local jobs, same price for the product, more money for the CEOs/top dogs.
Buckethead
Yup... the Simpson's - perhaps the most biting commentary on American life - now has credits for offshore production. From the name of the manager it's likely India or Malaysia. The voices are still American but the graphics are probably done in a country where the sarcasm will not likely be noticed as sarcasm. Nothing is sacred and I'm seriously reconsidering my Simpson's habit.
No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that globalization will prove Karl Marx's theories of capitalism correct; I think it will, in fact, prove exactly the opposite. After all, Marx predicted that capitalism would eventually become communism through a massive worker revolt - and I certainly see no signs of that. That said, I think there is a political backlash against outsourcing that's going to become stronger and stronger in the next year or so. (Just look at the role it's playing in US presidential politics, seven-and-a-half months before the actual election.)
And to be honest, the huge surge in videogame popularity over the past decade - and the recognition that gaming is a "mainstream" activity - is what's pushing this wave of outsourcing. Companies have to have cheaper labor, or they simply won't survive in the highly competitive environment. Would I like to see my games get cheaper? Sure. And that will happen - but the price wars haven't started yet.
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot.+++
What we need is a constitutional amendment defining economic treason as a high crime. Economic treason might be defined as sending "high value" work to a location where wages are substantially lower than Americans would earn.
eat shiat and bark at the moon
I suppose it can be good and bad. One of the good things would be cutting development costs, and maybe lower prices. But with the high piracy rates of Asia/Eastern Europe, I'm not sure I'd trust anyone with a large chunk of the code. And I'd say its a lot less likely than it happening here merely because of the legal reprocussions. Going half way around the world to a different legal system to try and apprehend and punish the guy/gal who did it is far more difficult, when compared to staying in your own backyard (USA/Canada) where you know the law.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
Isn't this the same bullshit argument that people have been using for the past 20 years to prove that the outflow of jobs to factories in Japan is going to destroy the American economy within 10 years? Hey! It is!
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
By that definition, you'd end up banning imports - which would completely destroy the economy of the United States and its trading partners (i.e. the industrialized world.) A better way to handle it would be to crack down hard on overseas tax shelters and then provide tax benefits for companies keeping their labor in the US (or your appropriate nation, international /.ers. I'm not greedy.)
+++Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot.+++
Wait until we are all working at McDonalds and Wal-Mart getting paid $5.15 an hour with no benefits or hope for advancement. Then you'll see a workers revolt. Marx's theories relied on the greed of capitalism to exploit the working class. This is happening right now!
Of course communism isn't exactly known for a healthy middle class either. Sigh -- What is to become of us?
Would I like to see my games get cheaper? Sure. And that will happen - but the price wars haven't started yet.
You'll need them cheaper to afford them when you are flipping burgers. Besides I call BS. They won't lower the prices. Why would they? Most good games are unique experiences. Is there anything out there that competes with Sim City?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
People bitch about this, and that's fine. But at the same time, those people claim to be for free-market economy. But of course, only when it supports THEIR cause.
If I step out of my situation, I agree with you completely. If I step back in my situation, I say that how outsourcing has happened was just not acceptable. It sure feels to me like my entire career was gutted in just a few months. I'm sure may others feel the same way.
If you want to destroy an entire profession in your country, that's fine assuming you have a good reason. But you can't simply ignore all the people who invested years and tens of thousands of dollars in that career. People have 5 year car loans. People have 30 year mortgages. People make long term plans based on the assumption that their lives will be stable long term.
Outsourcing demonstrated to me that I can't count on my government to consider my needs before making a decision. I would say I'm completely meaningless to them, except as a part of consumer spending. I'll be moving into a house with no mortgage by the end of the year. I'll be completely debt free. I will never again finance something. Why? Because I can't ever assume that the amount of money I'm making will remain stable with any certainty. How's that for consumer confidence?
Hell, i would have been ok with outsourcing if i had just been given some warning. How about phasing in this outsourcing over five years? Warn everyone so they can plan, then do it? That's not what happened here. Why? Because corporate executives wanted all the profits now. And the people in washington took their money and did what they wanted. So much for representing us. Fuck the middle class.
This is the stuff that brings about communist revolutions. Follow this trend 20 or 30 years in the future and see where it gets us. Capitalism is fine as along as it's restrained.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Not too long after the EA takeover of Westwood studios, some of the work was contracted out to a group in Germany, keep in mind they did very good work.... but still
Why isn't C++ being taught in public schools now? Being that everything can be reprogrammed (software, robotics, sales metrics, accounting...etc). Programming should be like any of the major subjects such as Science, English and Math.
Soon, programming will be required education rather then an added skill set to profit on just alone.
Life is not for the lazy.
But seriously, what do you expect a single game company to do about this? Stand up and be the good guys? Compete with other companies with much lower labor costs? Save the world?
The problem is here to stay; no question about it. Unfortunately, I don't believe this is a problem that the free market will solve without first bleeding the American and European middle classes to the brink of survival. I don't claim to have "the right" solution, but one solution is an export tarrif on wages. Let the Russians develop Russian software, let the Americans develop American software.
a programmer from sneaks in some malicious code which is missed by the company which outsourced the job?
_________ Help me get a PSP!
You know what the funny part is, I had to goto college to be a programmer because nobody in the states will hire you without a degree, but how many of these Russians have degrees comparable to an American education? I'm not saying they're not good programmers, they probably are. I'm just saying I doubt they're being held to the same standard as we are here. In a lot of ways a college education is the new high school education. My grandmother to the day she died bragged about finishing high school -- in her time women usually went to the 10th grade and were married off. Now with a 4 year engineering degree I'm a part of the fucking unwashed masses, and your words of comfort aren't putting a roof over my head.
This is infact pure greed, the problem with capitalism is there is very little short term reward for long term planning. Outsourcing does long term damage to the country by providing short term gains. I'd like to know what job you're in? Whatever it is I'm sure an immigrant could and would do it for half your wage. That doesn't make it right or good.
I will tell you right now how this will begin and end. Some kind of electronic "perl harbor" will take place, death and destruction will be caused by shoddy software engineering (not Russian/Indian software either, good old shitty American software). The need to develop rigorous engineering standards for software, like EVERY OTHER ENGINEERING DISCIPLINE will be painfully obvious, and those standards will be developed and practiced by American programmers. But in the meantime, this shit stinks. I have been unemployed for, coming up on, two years here and I have quite a lot of experience, and I know a lot of people in the same boat. The unemployment rate here in Southern California is like 16% (the real unemployment rate, not the rosy numbers the government publishes).
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Going overseas for ports or original game development is not nearly a new thing. This has been happening for quite some time.
My first personal experience was with "Out of this World" back in the early 90s (92-3ish). The original game was done in France. (I guess you can say it was actually an import into the US.) The Windows 3.1 version was done by a Russian company.
I've seen many games started up in Canada, Australia and Eastern Europe because of the exchange rate of the dollar. All this occured in the early 90s.
It's also been common to outsource concept art, models, animations, movies, music (especially if you want an orchestral score, eastern european orchestras are cheap compared to US ones), and, yes, even programming for sometime.
There are plenty of good development houses in Europe that have been making games for American publishers for years.
It's less common to go to Japan and Asia for US published titles, but it happens occasionally.
I don't see any major change in the way we (the games industry) do overseas development, but I don't see the entire industry of course.
I had a skill. It was working in a factory. Then they decided that I made too much money so they sent that overseas.
So I maxed out my credit cards and went back to school to work on computers. I found a job and just about when I had my debt paid off they decided I made too much money -- so they sent my job overseas.
Now I'm 55 years old with no savings and no job. WTF should I do? Go back to school for bio-tech? What happens when the CEO who makes $20,000,000 decides that I am making too much money and sends my job overseas?
And no that's not the boat that I personally am in but it's hardly a unique story either.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Nonsense. You need to read some first year economics. Just to help you, try the sections on Comparative and Absolute Advantages.
Also, read the section on Protectionism. Why, because the next logical step in your statement is to propose subsidies to American developers and restrict imports from overseas (through quotas, traiffs and embargoes), read up on them. You'll learn that protectionism increases the cost of living while preventing a short term increase in unemployment or a financial loss to some of the less efficient producers.
If anything is "economic treason", surely increasing the cost of living so that more people live under the poverty line (ie don't earn enough to live in the most basic of conditions) is.
Before you argue, read up on the topic. Also don't forget that unemployed people must get retrained or get left behind. We've been through this all before (check out the automobile industry prior to Ford's Mass Production). How many farriers are around today? Do they meet demand?
Western cultures are moving into more service based industries. This includes research and development all the way down to tourism. Why? Because we are good at it, can often provide excellent quality at a low cost. Don't be close minded and freak out because some code monkey jobs were lost to overseas, learn extra skills (project management, a language other than english, teaching etc) so that you can enter industries that your economy excels at. We are still designing, specifying and developing new products, we just get them made OS.
"The big question in our lives is how to be at the same time a hedonist and in a hurry" - Alain Ducasse (?)
Unfortunately, I was the only one who voted for Ross Perot.
That giant sucking sound is all the jobs going to...India...Russia...everywhere else..
People laughed at him...but I still like the idea of a businessman running the country, rather than a politician.
No reason to lie.
I love America. Here, you can always find a party. In Soviet Russia, the Party always finds you!
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Seeing this reminded me of a brilliant monologue from the film Network, which will be thirty years old before too long.
In this scene, Howard Beale, an insane TV news anchor, is being given a dressing down by the president of the network for exhorting viewers on the air to stop an important business deal. Ask yourself if this is the kind of world you want to live in.
See this movie. It is at least as quotable as anything by Quentin Tarantino. Find it, rent it, watch it. Apart from the fashions and faded film stock, you'd swear this film was made last month.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Which jobs should be kept here? Manufacturing hardware that let's American consumers like you buy a PC for less than a 1000$? Or is it patriotism only when YOUR job is being protected?
Yakov painted the great mural "America's Heart"
which was displayed over Ground Zero.
http://www.yakov.com
-- The Funk, The Whole Funk, And Nothing But The Funk
Step 1: remove as much wealth from your name as you can, anyway you can.
Step 2: wait one year.
Step 3: While waiting one year, find a relative who will let you live on their property for about two years.
Step 4: file bankruptcy.
Step 5: live in your house without a mortgage for 5-10 months while they foreclose, save money.
Step 6: move in with the relatives, have no bills, save all your money, pay cash for a place to live.
Disconnect your television. Do your own research. Draw your own conclusions. They're probably lying. Don't be a sheep.
Does anybody have a fucking clue about what country the words 'Nintendo' or 'Sega' comes from?
Heh, you're slightly glossing over the fact that Sega was founded by an American (something most Japanese are completely unaware of). I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying though.
...is that just a generation ago, it was computer technicians and programmers who put millions of Americans out of work by replacing their positions with machinery. ...just sayin'....
1989 Graduate with a MS in Computer Science
1989-2004 Work at softwre jobs, save loads of money, take on no debt except a house
2004-2010 write software, pay off house, save money
2011- write software, save money
20?? retire, do contract software part time, save money
I anticipate that we will have to take stagnating software development wages for a while, then slow growing wages.
I also anticipate that the federal, state and local government will want to tax me at a total rate of:
2004 - 50%
2010 - 60%
2015 - 85%
2020 - 90%
2050 - 90%
That's total taxes.
The entitlements (social security, medicare, food stamps, welfare, and government jobs) will grow at double or triple the rate of inflation and at least double my wage growth.
Net result, save money, prepare to make less money in the future.
Why do Americans think they're the only ones who deserve decent jobs?
Why does everyone else think that Americans should be altruistic to the point of extinction, but of course they can be protectionist and xenophobic.
And another hint - there are a lot of gamers in foreign countries too.
Then why don't they make games for themselves? Why does everyone want in on the American economy?
So if my profession is outsourced to the point where I can't find a job within the Tri-State area that's a symptom not a cause of my unemployment?
No, moron. That's a symptom of the economy being shitty, not the REASON the economy is shitty. Companies are losing money so in order to cut costs they ship work overseas. You losing your job is yet another symptom.
Yeah it has nothing to do with the massive amounts of unemployment caused by outsourcing and the general lack in confidence that the American middle class has these days.
Pretty much. People that are in industries that can easily be replaced by cheaper foreign labor need to start finding something else to do.
I'll see if you are still so detached and clinical about it when you are in the process of applying for your unemployment extension or filing bankruptcy.
Already been there. Two years ago I lost my job when the company I worked for was sold to a competing manufacturer. Instead of whining to the unemployment office, I started working freelance (I'm a guitar tech, BTW) and haven't needed to do anything else. If suddenly everyone stopped buying and playing guitars and nobody was getting repairs done instead of bitching about it I'd find something else to do. It's quite simple. Work or die. Paint yourself into a corner and you're fucked. I have enough experience in several different areas that I'm qualified for several types of jobs instead of just being able to do one thing.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
In russian, there is this proverbial saying: "Bylo vashe, stalo nashe!" or: "was yours, now ours!"
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.
H.G. Wells, "The Outline of History"
- mritunjai
Look dude, this is fucking stupid. Not every goddamned job is being outsourced. Bullshit things like call center work is, low-end code slinging is, and that's about it. Stupid shit any moron can do. The IT equivalent of flipping burgers. If you're expendable, chances are you're not worth paying. Evolve or die.
Next thing you'll be complaining about overseas companies being able to do business in the first place.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
I'd repair the millions of preexisting guitars in this country that are worth considerably more than $3. Guitars have been produced overseas for quite a long time now, and many are closing in on the $50 mark. But these are low quality guitars, usually bought for beginners or as last-ditch backups. They're disposable, but a $2800 Gibson (which will ALWAYS have buyers) isn't. No, I don't think guitars are an American thing. I worked as quality control (and several other things) for a manufacturer that has production in the US, Japan, and India. The Indian built guitars can't hold a candle to the Japanese guitars, and the Japanese guitars aren't as good as the American guitars. You don't ALWAYS get what you pay for, but in this case that adage is true. A good luthier in Japan can make a guitar just as good as any American can, but he might make less money doing so.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
And I am a Democrat. Look, go to college, get your education, work hard and you WILL have a job.
Or you can whine and complain that Indians took your job while you sit on your ass and do nothing. What? You going to ask for the government to bail you out and give you MY money? You can't earn your own damn money so you losers have to tax me and take mine?
If you are stupid it is under your control, work harder if you arent as intelligent as me. Get degrees, spend 10 years in college, and write a great resume. IF you still can't find work then you can always be a teacher.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.