Matrix Online Creators Quizzed On MMO Wire-Fu

Bad timing by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-21 22:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

This had the potential to really harness the mythos surrounding the movies with MMO's real-life / digital-life gameplay style, but with the current market saturation and soon-to-be-waning interest in this genre I don't think it will see a very warm reception, or at least as warm as it could be.

Too bad because having a truly digital alternate reality in the context of a game about a digital alternate reality is a pretty cool concept.

Re:Bad timing by Wylfing · 2004-03-22 02:54 · Score: 1

but with the current market saturation and soon-to-be-waning interest in this genre I don't think it will see a very warm reception
I disagree. I think there are a lot of people itching to play this game. A read through the FAQ gets me imagining all kinds of spectacular fights. Three hundred different moves!

--
Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
Re:Bad timing by irokitt · 2004-03-22 03:58 · Score: 2, Insightful

Perhaps that is why Ubisoft left the game's development. The fact that the Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions recieved less praise could also have had its effect. Overall, this is a game I want to watch, but I am a little worried that it could bomb.

--
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Re:Bad timing by Cebu · 2004-03-22 18:03 · Score: 1

From the FAQ:
What will combat be like?
Combat will be intense and spectacular, with over 300 animations for each martial art and weapons style.

Read it again -- the FAQ states that the game has "over 300 animations for each martial art and weapons style" which seems impressive. However, consider all the annimations that will simply be variations, idle animations, basic movement, and that number sounds a lot less impressive.

Prince of Persia used over 700 animations just for the Prince's very small set of moves. 300 animations does not at all equate to a large variety of motion.

Fighting by Killjoy_NL · 2004-03-21 22:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

If they manage to get the fighting engine working well, they might set a precedent for 3D beat-em-ups.

From what I've read, the Bullet-Time option will kick in when you've landed the killing blow on your opponent, wasn't it much more cool if you could activate Bullet-Time during battle, like in Max Payne.
I guess it's really hard to do in an online game, who should be moving in bullet time, who should move in realtime, will spectators outside of the Bullet-Time area be viewing a really slow or really fast fight?

Difficult stuff.

--
This is the sig that says NI (again)

Re:Fighting by Mad_Fred · 2004-03-22 00:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

The way I understood it bullet time won't just show up when you kill someone, that was just an example. I can imagine it kicking in when someone's executing various important/hard hitting moves, thus giving the opponent more time to react, I.E. make really cool counters or evasive moves. Since it's not a beat-em-up with a pad having a little more time to react probably won't hurt anyone. Just my ideas as spurred by the interview.
Re:Fighting by Bazzargh · 2004-03-22 01:21 · Score: 3, Interesting

Its not /that/ hard to do. Here's how: you can have two kinds of bullet time, 'slow' time, where other characters get slowed down, and 'fast' time, where your character is speeded up.

For 'slow' time, the effect is confined to a bubble, so you can have bullet time fights without affecting the whole world. As different characters are differently able to distort time, control speed and physics are changed by different amounts depending on your abilities; but all characters 'see' the bubble as if they were the fastest character (ie you see it the way the movie did).

To avoid discontinuities, intra-world communication (eg speech, phone) with someone in a different timeframe is disrupted, but inter-world communication is unaffected (eg a 'find me an exit' conversation). Constant rain and other effects can be used to constrain line-of-sight so there are no visual discontinuities.

'fast' time can be used for pre-planned actions, eg running along a route. Since you don't need real-time control, a fast character can then be moved at super-speed to their destination, and slow characters see an appropriate visual effect. Encountering a 'slow' bubble while moving along a 'fast' route drops you back into control.

I'm sure this leads to plenty of temporal anomalies, but unless you give they characters wristwatches they won't be annoyingly obvious.
Re:Fighting by dolo666 · 2004-03-22 07:15 · Score: 1

> Bullet-Time option will kick in when you've landed the killing blow on your opponen

So, instead of landing a killing blow by slowing time for greater accuracy and armor-penetration, you get a special viewing of bullet time when you kill someone? Sounds like someone hasn't really understood bullet time at all. Bullet time exists as a side effect of speeding the thought process so quickly that everything seems very slow; and speeding this thought process exists because the characters are indeed working hard to defeat an enemy or dodge a bullet.

I can see the meeting now: "Okay we don't want to design gameplay around bullet time."

"Just activate when you want at certain points of the game, in the form of cinematic."

"That just saved us 5 months of dev time! Thanks!"

"No problem, Mr. Anderson."
Re:Fighting by irokitt · 2004-03-22 07:38 · Score: 1

It's not as difficult as you might think, because "bullet time" is really just another name for "server lag" ;)

--
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Re:Fighting by SandSpider · 2004-03-22 08:34 · Score: 1

For 'slow' time, the effect is confined to a bubble, so you can have bullet time fights without affecting the whole world. As different characters are differently able to distort time, control speed and physics are changed by different amounts depending on your abilities; but all characters 'see' the bubble as if they were the fastest character (ie you see it the way the movie did).

So, let me try to understand your vision: Players are running around shooting each other in real time, but someone is engaged in a bullet-time battle, they are shown as being very slow. However, this won't affect the rest of the world? What happens if someone shoots towards them? They bullet will go normal speed, until it hits the bubble, at which point it will slow down?

Also, what if you're in a team? You have five characters (Team A) who encounter 5 other characters (Team B). Two opposing characters, one from each team, go into bullet-time. The other four players from Team A proceed to wipe out the 4 players from Team B, then, after a while, the bullet-time member of Team B emerges from the Bubble and is trounced by the 4 surviving members of Team A. I suspect that would be a very common occurrence in that sort of scenario, and thus it would be unlikely that anyone would want to enter bullet time.

Alternatively, while the two players are in bullet time, you take your four team members and spray as much machine-gun fire into the bubble as possible. If you are a good team, you coordinate the fire so that it follows a pattern that can't be easily dodged, even in bullet-time. I predict it would take about 3 hours into Beta, tops, before someone perfected that technique. Then it would be less likely that people would enter Bullet Time, at least on purpose. If they're forced into it, then it'll be a major bug that kills enjoyment of the game.

On the other hand, if players out of Bullet Time can't interact with players in Bullet Time, then you've gained a tremendous advantage by being in bullet time, which will likely be exploited to a player's greatest ability.

Affecting the control speed is another danger. If you are near a bullet-time battle, and your control is stopped immediately when someone pops into bullet time, then you've just given controllable lag to upper-level characters. The first technique I predict you'd see in that circumstance is someone randomly popping into and out of bullet time, which will greatly interfere with someone's ability to accurately fire on a character, even if the target is not the one currently in bullet time. Then you have to determine what the affected radius of bullet time exposure is, whether it works through walls and windows, etc.

There are intrinsic problems with having multiple time scales in a multiplayer game, and those are a few of them. If they can pull it off, I will be very, very impressed.

=Brian

--
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, will not hate it.
Re:Fighting by Bazzargh · 2004-03-23 02:42 · Score: 1

So, let me try to understand your vision: Players are running around shooting each other in real time, but someone is engaged in a bullet-time battle, they are shown as being very slow. However, this won't affect the rest of the world?

Anyone who can see into the bubble is part of the bubble, was what I meant. That's why I mentioned the rain; you have to constrain line-of-sight so the effect doesn't spread to the whole MMO world.

Also, what if you're in a team? You have five characters (Team A) who encounter 5 other characters (Team B). Two opposing characters, one from each team, go into bullet-time.

The players are all involved in the bubble. The players without bullet time enabled have slowed controls and move like they're stuck in mud. The characters with bullet time enabled move normally except that they appear less affected by gravity (9.8 ms-2 appears as 0.98ms-2 if one 'real' second is 0.1 'in-game' seconds)

Alternatively, while the two players are in bullet time, you take your four team members and spray as much machine-gun fire into the bubble as possible...

etc, etc - you've misunderstood. All players within sight of each other are affected by the bubble.

your control is stopped immediately when someone pops into bullet time, then you've just given controllable lag to upper-level characters

Yes, precisely (except that control is slowed, not stopped). What do you think bullet time is, but the ability for agents to avoid the lag of the real world? However, if you have any ability available, turning on your ability should be either automatic or instantaneous, not delayed as for normal motion.

Then you have to determine what the affected radius of bullet time exposure is, whether it works through walls and windows, etc.

You can have it purely line of sight, but that has obvious problems with 'infecting' the whole world with slowness, unless you prevent people forming a human chain of lines of sight to the original bubble.

My preferred alternative would be to make the effect depend on your radial distance from a character in bullet time. In this case, yes, bullets from outside would slow as they neared the location of characters in bullet time; but if the radius of effect is large enough - say linearly decreasing to 100m - you still have plenty of time to see bullets coming.

Putting some real figures on this - 500m/s muzzle velocity is realistic, 5m/s is dodgeable so 1/100 speed is agent-level. Fighting an agent at 1/100 speed would be unplayable, but then again, thats the point - as you get closer to his ability you get more able to fight them; and you're not a normal human so you'd be moving about 1/10 agent speed, not 1/100. Scaling the effect up to 100m from the person in bullet time so that v -> v/(1+f(100-r)), where f=1 (1/100 speed at centre) for an agent, the bullet takes 10s to hit from 100m. Putting f=0.5 (1/10 speed at centre, more like a good normal player) a bullet still takes 5s to hit from 100m. Even a spray of bullets from the edge of the bubble would be dodgeable.

There are intrinsic problems with having multiple time scales in a multiplayer game, and those are a few of them. If they can pull it off, I will be very, very impressed.

Indeed. But the problems aren't intractable. The biggest difficulty is making this a game worth playing; the console matrix game was totally crap, remember.
Re:Fighting by crazyaxemaniac · 2004-03-23 05:20 · Score: 1

Whoa. Deja vu.

Combat? by oprahwinfree · 2004-03-21 22:33 · Score: 4, Interesting

From the FAQ:

When does the game take place? [UPDATED] The Matrix Online takes place after The Matrix Revolutions, the third Matrix movie. A truce has been declared. Humans and Machines are now at an uneasy peace. In the ongoing story of the game, you can play a significant part in the future of the Matrix.

Something I don't get is this:
If the machines and humans are at peace, then who will players fight against? Excluding pvp, I can't imagine that there will be very much combat. In a game like Everquest or Asheron's Call, minor enemies like trolls, orcs, and the like can be churned out over and over again to provide fighting fodder. In a Matrix world, where are the snakes and bats to fight?

Re:Combat? by bigbigbison · 2004-03-21 23:00 · Score: 3, Interesting

I'm not sure about snakes or bats, but remember the Merovingian (sp?) and that line that vampires, ghosts and werewolves are rogue programs. So I would imagine that would be a major part of who you would fight.

--
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Re:Combat? by BlueCodeWarrior · 2004-03-22 00:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

Don't forget that there are always dissenters...maybe you're fighting to stop those who want the war to start anew...

or maybe you are one who wants the war to start back up.
Re:Combat? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-22 01:49 · Score: 0

The interview said that a lot of playing would be done in "instanced" areas created by the player. These will probably be areas similar to the Merovingian's train station or the Nebuchadnezzar's loading program, where the player can fight mobs (as in mobiles) outside of the context of the "real" Matrix world.

Aside from that, the peace is "uneasy". It's compared to a "cold war" which certain elements in every faction are trying to disrupt, to resume hostilities, to gain some advantage or control in/over the Matrix. So there will probably be human and machine mobs to fight during faction missions.
Re:Combat? by sehryan · 2004-03-22 01:56 · Score: 1

Everyone who wants to be freed will be. However, there will be those who, like Cypher, reject the real world and want to return to the Matrix. They will basically fight against those trying to free more people. So it is human vs. human in the Matrix. Of course, Merv and his folk, as well as Agents, will be involved as well. Should be interesting.

--
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
Re:Combat? by TLSPRWR · 2004-03-22 04:33 · Score: 1

From reading the interview, the 'peace' is not quite even. All the different sides are eyeing each other, waiting for the opportune moment to strike and take the others down. Plus, with three different groups, all slightly against each other (Machines, Humans, Merovigian[sp?]), plenty of conflict can be drawn out, even in 'peaceful' times.

Also, with a story line by the Wachowski's, you can be sure that plenty of weirdness will abound.

Well...that might be a good thing (tm) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-21 23:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

The way I would do it is set it in a cold war between the humans and the machines. Where the Architect's words at the end of Revolutions are open to inturpritation.

There would for all intents and purposes be two teams. The merovingians minions who would be easier to play for newbies. Being able to run over any surface, like a vampire, or be able to take collosall amounts of damage, like a werewolf sans silver, etc. They wouldn't have a bullet-time ability, but they might be naturally faster etc.

And the humans. Who would start out start out basically as pussies, but should they survive could be superbad ass. But when you die, or after a certain number of times, you gotta make another conscript.

The Agents would for the most part be badass bots. But with a ranking system. The best players could be invited to be agents for limited periods of time. Localize the Agents to have last names generic to the users local.

You could skill up just by escaping fights as you endevour to free souls as it were, or enslave them if you're one of the merovingians henchmen.

Done right, with a seemless transition from gun combat to close combat, and the right uncluttered presentation of your situational awareness, it would simply stomp everything else out there.

Re:Well...that might be a good thing (tm) by Zangief · 2004-03-22 02:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

There would for all intents and purposes be two teams. The merovingians minions who would be easier to play for newbies. Being able to run over any surface, like a vampire, or be able to take collosall amounts of damage, like a werewolf sans silver, etc. They wouldn't have a bullet-time ability, but they might be naturally faster etc.

And the humans. Who would start out start out basically as pussies, but should they survive could be superbad ass. But when you die, or after a certain number of times, you gotta make another conscript.

The Agents would for the most part be badass bots. But with a ranking system. The best players could be invited to be agents for limited periods of time. Localize the Agents to have last names generic to the users local.

Nah, why bother? they can always make you kill hundreds of rats, birds and whatever animal they want. Look at Star Wars Galaxies for an example :)
Re:Well...that might be a good thing (tm) by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-22 04:52 · Score: 2, Funny

Well that's the thing. That's inexplicably gay. The only reason I can think that they set the game up that way is because thats how final fantasy did it, (at least in the first one you started out fighting imps.)

What the hell? There's some kind of shortage of storm troopers, tusken raiders, twitchy ineffectual bounty hunters, random bar wolves, and jawas as evidenced by the first movie?

No, like all heroes that came before them, they must do mortal battle with invertebrates, then small mammals, then small birds, then lost kittens and so on.... It is the noble way of the warrior. I say a jedi without a long history of irrational animal cruelty is but a charlatan, and cannot be trusted.

not real time fighting. by cgenman · 2004-03-22 01:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

"...players have the opportunity to optimize their fighting technique by managing their move-by-move combat tactics, and performing combos and other special maneuvers. This is definitely not 'click and watch.'"

Why is it whenever that phrase gets uttered by a designer, it almost always the opposite of the truth? The fighting system he describes sounds like a RPGesque system of clicking buttons to queue up attacks ALA Xenogears. It also sounds like fights will proceed without user input, allowing avatars whose hosts are lagging out to continue with only a moderate effectiveness penalty. It makes sense for a MMPORPG to do it that way, and it is a cut above other games in terms of click-and-watch, but it still isn't the real time fighting that people want.

Describing the fighting system the way they do, people are going to be expecting Planetside, and will be disappointed to receive SW:KOTOR. It sounds like it could be fun, but they need to manage expectations better.

Despite the hype, most people would consider queuing up attacks a form of "click-and-watch."

--
The ______ Agenda

Re:not real time fighting. by *weasel · 2004-03-22 04:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

The real test will be whether simply queuing up a dozen actions is an effective way to fight. If you are rewarded for altering your queue in response to your enemy's tactics, then it wouldn't necessarily be 'click and watch'.

(things like adjusting positioning or switching on/off defensive modes, using a 'counter' style to your opponents style, etc).

Queuing is a nice way to mitigate lag or declare intent (so your character isn't sitting there like an idiot during a lag spike), but shouldn't be the best tactic to use for an entire fight.

If you simply don't use the pause functionality in SW:Kotor, it's a decent example of having an action queue, yet being required to adjust it regularly for best results. (I'd personally want for more counters, reactive styles than KOTOR - but it's a decent example.)

If the effectiveness of a character's chooseable combat options are independent of enemy tactics, then surely the gameplay would still amount to 'click and watch', albeit front-loaded with more clicking.

But it ultimately depends on whether you're rewarded more for spamming your 'best' combos, or reacting with the 'appropriate' moves given the situation.

The designers still have an opportunity to avoid 'click and watch'. Whether they will or not is anyone's guess.

--
// "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"

Note Uru by truffle · 2004-03-22 01:25 · Score: 1

Ubisoft also just cancelled the MMO component of Uru. Sounds like Ubi's MMO division is not doing well.

--

---
I support spreading santorum

From the Faq by Tommy2099 · 2004-03-22 01:31 · Score: 5, Funny

"Imagine yourself as Trinity, downloading a new ability and instantly being able to use a new weapon"

Okay, I'll bite...

"Pistol, rifle, and submachine gun are available in the initial launch of Matrix Online. More weapons will probably be added in later game expansions."

So, I have to wait to probably download a way to pretend to download the ability to use a virtual representation of a virtual representation of more than just 3 standard game guns?

Existentialism aside, that blows. I need guns...lots of guns!

Re:From the Faq by jafuser · 2004-03-22 07:57 · Score: 1

So, I have to wait to probably download a way to pretend to download the ability to use a virtual representation of a virtual representation of more than just 3 standard game guns?

This is why I can never go back to a traditional MMORPG. The online world I now spend most of my time in lets you make anything you want. When I say "make" I mean build it from primitive shapes, link it together, and write one or more programs to model the behavior for the object.

I love how some MMORPGs claim that they have a free market where you can "craft" objects and sell them to other players.

Their definition of "crafting" is: "run on the levelling treadmill until you earn enough XP to gain permission to instantiate limited copies of objects that we already modeled, textured, and programmed".

Uh, I think I'll stay where I am and build and sell my own objects unimpeded, thank you very much...

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You have to see it for..oh screw it. by superultra · 2004-03-22 01:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

I watched a "trailer" for the game, and as expected it had the generic electronicaesque guitar rock in the background, cool camera angles with a green filter, shiny clothes and sunglasses that defy gravity, and then (gasp) . . . People. Running. Around. I know it's early, but the whole thing screamed BORING. The combat looked coerced and campy, like Enter the Matrix but turn based, if you can get crappier than ETM combat.

The only thing this has going for it is that it's produced by Monolith, of Shogo/NOLF/Tron fame. It's licensed (strike one), it's the Matrix (should be worth two strikes after ETM but we'll be fair give it one), and Ubisoft dropped it amidst an ever-crowding market of pointless MMOs. Strike three?

The only way I see this title being any fun at all is if Monolith somehow works in their crisp sense of humor. The machines are developing sheep bombs, say, or the game goes into bullet time whenever someone slips on a banana peel. I, for one, would very much like to see a man-cube perform martial arts while dodging bullets in slow motion.

Re:You have to see it for..oh screw it. by Pxtl · 2004-03-22 05:49 · Score: 1

Imho, Lith's involvement is NOT a good thing. Lith has good engine coders and hard working people, but they are very poor designers.

Their games are almost always filled with good story, interesting bad guys, and generic, poor gameplay. Shogo was an unremarkable FPS whose only interesting feature was the addition of transforming. Tron was not a good game - it suffered from "wouldn't it be neat if we...." design mentality, instead of what would actually be fun.

And one game they were responsible for that you neglected to mention was their involvement in AvsP 2. AvP2 took a spectacular game, added tons of new gameplay features, and ran the gameplay completely into the dirt. The first game was fun, smooth, and scary. The second game had every feature you could ever want from the movies, but was hideously unbalanced when played online.

And I notice you didn't mention Septerra Core. The less said about that the better.

Just one question to the developers: by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-22 01:53 · Score: 1, Interesting

Not to flamebait or anything, but let's be honest... everyone HATED the third Matrix movie. How harmful do you think this will be for the game's sales?

Re:Just one question to the developers: by theghost · 2004-03-22 07:53 · Score: 1

I liked the third movie - much moreso than the second, but predictably, much less than the first. It wasn't perfect, but it was IMO good.

I think this game's sales are going to be largely unaffected by the movies' successes and failures. The lag-time between the last movie and the release of this will ensure that word-of-mouth is going to make or break the game unless they market the hell out of it, which i don't see happening. If it plays well it will do well.

--
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

bad timing by paradesign · 2004-03-22 05:02 · Score: 1

This is going to fail miserably. The Matrix is old hat, not cool anymore. The series is done and over with. If they would have released this just before the 2nd film, sure it would have been sucessful, but now? no way. Plus they could have updated the world as the 2nd and 3rd movies released, giving a dynamic virtual environment.

--
I want 2D games back.

"Bullet Time" by irokitt · 2004-03-22 07:35 · Score: 1

It's not as difficult as you think, because "bullet time" is really just another name for "server lag" ;)

--
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.

Vaporware by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-22 09:20 · Score: 0

There is no way this game will be completed and be on store shelves this year. None. Yet that's what they're claiming, despite the fact that they've switched developers and despite the fact that they're still asking for feedback for basic functions of the game and don't have answers for some of the most basic questions.

I signed on to the MxO message boards two days after the site went live, and I can't tell you how much contradictory information has been issued by the developers.

That said, the concept is cool, and I would play this game if it ever materializes. Yes, there is a "truce" after Revolutions, but the "new war" is between people who want out of the Matrix and people who don't want to let go of everything they have. As a player, you're supposedly able to pick either side -- the "rebels" and the "machinists".

Like I said, I'd play it if it ever materializes.

so... by OwlofCreamCheese · 2004-03-22 10:04 · Score: 2, Funny

so, whats going to happen when people start cheating or dupeing or any of the other crap that happens in these games? I mean, it seems sorta odd to start kicking people out for doing that kind of stuff, doesn't it? sorta contrary to the spirit of the world.

--
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Re:Filthy hobbitses stole our FROSTY PISS by Anonymous Coward · 2004-03-30 20:40 · Score: 0

Shut the fuck up, nigger.

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Matrix Online Creators Quizzed On MMO Wire-Fu

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