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McNealy Answers: No Open Source Java

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the laid-to-rest dept.

comforteagle writes "Sun CEO Scott McNealy has finally answered the long awaited question that has been on the minds of open source and Java developers. Will Sun open source Java? No. He stated today that Sun sees no solution solved from open sourcing Java that isn't already addressed."

16 of 761 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Java is Suns last trump card by willdenniss · · Score: 2, Informative

    While I agree - Java is Sun's trump card, you are quite wrong with your assertions that java is "closed" and "internal".

    Please read this document for clarification.

    Will.

  2. IKVM Aswers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    McNealy's wrong. Open source Java is knocking at the door. And worse yet, it will run on Mono not a JVM!

  3. Mono implements C#. Mono is free. by tepples · · Score: 2, Informative

    C# and MSIL have a free implementation. Whether this qualifies those technologies as "open" or not depends on your definition of "open."

  4. Correction... by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 3, Informative

    ...no Open-Source SUN Java.

    People being impatient have already generated GCJ and Kaffe working on open-source implementations of Java. Neither are yet as complete as the 'full' Java, but are in progress.

    Is there a 'standard' for the Java language itself, in the same way that there is for "C#"? If not, could it be because Sun doesn't want to make it easier for Open-Source folks to create a complete implementation?...

    --
    Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
    1. Re:Correction... by RodgerDodger · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is there a 'standard' for the Java language itself, in the same way that there is for "C#"?


      Why, yes there is, as a matter of fact. Every aspect of the Java language, including its libraries, are completely specified, and community participation is welcomed under the Java Community Process.

      I must admit that I can't see any standard for the .NET libraries that make C# a semi-useful language anywhere.
      --
      "Software is too expensive to build cheaply"
  5. Re:McNealy can't see it because he's not looking. by desau · · Score: 4, Informative

    Uhh -- what? How about: "when's the last time you used NFS? OpenOffice?"

    Like it or not, Sun is a big contributor to open source.

  6. Re:How can we fracture it? by Xabraxas · · Score: 4, Informative
    Not at all. I think what holds them back is the license.

    Software is confidential and copyrighted. Title to Software and all associated intellectual property rights is retained by Sun and/or its licensors. Except as specifically authorized in any Supplemental License Terms, you may not make copies of Software, other than a single copy of Software for archival purposes.
    --
    Time makes more converts than reason
  7. Re:Business Case for Open Sourcing Java? by Openstandards.net · · Score: 4, Informative
    The business case is that inviting more people to participate as an open source project will expedite its development permitting it to be more competitive. The open source advocates argue development will be faster, higher quality, and reach more platforms.

    I personally wasn't aware of the degree to which this was an issue until I installed FreeBSD. Sun doesn't supply a native JVM for it, and it's current license puts a lot of restrictions complicating the optimization of a free JVM for FreeBSD.

    You can get it running, but you have to jump through hoops, agreeing to Sun's source license, and then downloading it from Sun's site before you can compile a version for your PC. After you apply patches created by someone that worked very hard to get the thing to run on your OS, the compile process takes a long time.

    The worst part, though, is that it is slow on FreeBSD compared to other operating systems running on the same hardware. Very little can be done until Sun truly open sources Java.

    The primary solution people have taken to is creating patches to solve the problems Sun's code has running on different platforms. This has several drawbacks. One is that the patches take time to develop, creating a lag in versions. The second is that the patched versions rarely get true testing, so you can only hope it works with your application, and that something unexpected doesn't surprise you down the road. Most people creating these patches don't have access to Sun's highly priced compatibility test suite.

    The irony is that the compatibility Sun want's to maintain is eroded already by Sun's reluctance to both open source Java and make the test suite more accessible. This decision also decreases the platforms that Java can run on, the opposite of one of Sun's stated goals.

    A lot of people take it for granted when they install a pre-compiled JVM downloaded from Sun's website on one of the operating systems Sun happens to support. Let me know, please, when Sun releases a FreeBSD JVM, and solves problems the OpenBSD people have had getting it to run correctly.

    --

    Open Standards Portal
  8. Re:How can we fracture it? by rimu+guy · · Score: 5, Informative

    The license does not prohibit redistribution. Debian has just decided the license doesn't suit them is all. That's Debian's issue not Sun's.

    For the record here are the re-distribution clauses from the 1.4.2_04JDK:

    B. License to Distribute Software. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, including, but not limited to the Java Technology Restrictions of these Supplemental Terms, Sun grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license without fees to reproduce and distribute the Software, provided that (i) you distribute the Software complete and unmodified (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file) and only bundled as part of, and for the sole purpose of running, your Programs, (ii) the Programs add significant and primary functionality to the Software, (iii) you do not distribute additional software intended to replace any component(s) of the Software (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file), (iv) you do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in the Software, (v) you only distribute the Software subject to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in this Agreement, and (vi) you agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees) incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.
    C. License to Distribute Redistributables. Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, including but not limited to the Java Technology Restrictions of these Supplemental Terms, Sun grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license without fees to reproduce and distribute those files specifically identified as redistributable in the Software "README" file ("Redistributables") provided that: (i) you distribute the Redistributables complete and unmodified (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file), and only bundled as part of Programs, (ii) you do not distribute additional software intended to supersede any component(s) of the Redistributables (unless otherwise specified in the applicable README file), (iii) you do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in or on the Redistributables, (iv) you only distribute the Redistributables pursuant to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in the Agreement, (v) you agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees) incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.

    Linux VPS hosting *with* Sun JVMs

  9. Re:How can we fracture it? by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Informative

    Did you actually read it? People can sue Debian for faults they get when running their Sun implemented Java programs. That clause is revolting.

  10. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  11. Re:How can we fracture it? by rimu+guy · · Score: 1, Informative

    That's right. People can sue Debian for problems with Sun's software. People can also sue Debian if there is a bug in the Linux kernel. Or a problem with any other software package.

    Debian distribute their distro. They are responsible for it.

    No doubt they 'pass the buck' with their own clause indemnifying themselves in the event of any problem.

  12. Re:Java is Suns last trump card by spiral · · Score: 2, Informative

    > 1) You can make your own java compiler.
    > 2) You can make your own JVM.
    > 3) You can make your own libraries.
    > 4) Your java code can be open source.

    All these things are true, but the one thing you can't do freely is call any of these things "Java(tm)". That requires having your product pass compliance testing and be certified *by Sun*. The compliance kits are not free (in either sense) and the certification process has a price tag attached as well.

    This may not seem like a big deal to the individual user or developer, but when dealing with the corporate world you're nobody unless you have that squiggly coffee-cup logo and the "(tm)". The end result is that if you want to play the Java game, you have to play (and pay) by Sun's rules.

    --
    Drinking will help us plan!
  13. Re:Open Source is a verb? by Dr.+Mu · · Score: 3, Informative
    I couldn't find the pictures to go with it, but the text I've been able to glean from several Google hits goes something like this:
    Calvin: "I like to verb words."
    Hobbes: "What?"
    Calvin: "I take nouns and adjectives and use them as verbs. Remember when 'access' was a thing? Now it's something you do. It got verbed."
    Calvin: "Verbing weirds language."
    Hobbes: "Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding."
    But the original quote, "Any noun can be verbed," is variously credited to either Edsger Dijkstra and Alan Perlis.
  14. Re:How can we fracture it? by Trepalium · · Score: 2, Informative
    Something like this, perhaps:

    Linux debian 2.4.21-pre3 #2 Mon Jan 27 19:36:02 PST 2003 i686 unknown

    Most of the programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are
    freely redistributable; the exact distribution terms for each program
    are described in the individual files in /usr/share/doc/*/copyright

    Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent
    permitted by applicable law.
    --
    I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
  15. Re:How can we fracture it? by pjt33 · · Score: 5, Informative
    Java programs larger than "Hello World" have about a 25% chance of running on a default Linux system.
    Personally, I think that sentence makes your post deserving of -1 Flamebait. The reason Java programs fail to run on a Linux system is that they were written by idiots who assume that
    new File("c:\\");
    will work on any machine. I've only had one serious issue with getting Java programs to run on Windows, OS X and Linux, and that is that there's no documented way of changing the default file encoding. I added an item to coding standards saying that file encodings must be specified for all file I/O and the problem went away. The GUI will also want testing to make sure it looks reasonable, but that's not a failure-to-run issue.