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McNealy Answers: No Open Source Java
comforteagle writes "Sun CEO Scott McNealy has finally answered the long awaited question that has been on the minds of open source and Java developers. Will Sun open source Java? No. He stated today that Sun sees no solution solved from open sourcing Java that isn't already addressed."
If you don't open source it, how can we fork it?
But seriously folks...
God strike me down for saying it, but he's right. Java as a core language is fine. It's libraries are decent. What's more, it is infinitely extensible through the addition of third party libraries.
Why would you need an open source Java?
I have been pwned because my
http://gcn.com/vol1_no1/daily-updates/25400-1.html
"Go open source with DB2 and then you can tell me what to do with my assets," was McNealy's response to IBM
I bootleg Fizzy Lifting Drinks.
what is the reason for open sourceing java? The source code is avalable (through a restrictive licence, but it is there). Byte code is an open standard, so it is possible to create your own vm.The only real thing that is required are all the extra classes.
How would opening the source up benefit Sun ? It would obviously benefit the open source community and give Sun their respect, but Sun is out to make profit, and even in the long run I don't see how they can make more money. Besides, Sun knows java best, granted, open source developers could make improvements but people are going to use java regardless. Only until a new bit-code type programming language with the cross-platforming capabilities of java and a substantial amount of users, will Sun consider releasing the source. Sun is out to make money, not win friends, and I don't think they will loose many customers because they aren't releasing their source.
If the dollar is an "I owe you nothing", then the Euro is a "Who owes you nothing." - Doug Casey
In the other world, there's Novell who seems to be doing a lot of OSS-hugging lately. I believe SUSE's YAST is going open along with a few of Novell's very own formerly closed-source stuff. Sure, they may not be opening up the keys to the kingdom (not sure if they are or not) but at least they're visibly cooperating with the Open Source community.
SUN still contributes to OO.org stuff so we can't really rip them on that. However, they remain at the very least lukewarm to OSS. They offer Linux because their customers ask for it, they say. They package a Java Desktop where the word "Java" seems a bit out of place...I think banking on name recognition more than anything else. They killed off the cobalt servers. Just not very Open Source-friendly as far as their PR campaign seems to be going.
Open Source Java? A stern no is the answer. I guess they'll still need to hang on to something while the boat sinks. Might as well be a cup of strong hot coffee.
As much as I'd hate to admit it, this is probably a good thing.
We would probably end up having a dozen versions of Java out there, and various "java distributions" - and there would be no particular standard. There would be a pseudo-standard enforced by Sun, and say, IBM - but there is nothing to stop Microsoft to go ahead and make a non-standard version of it and popularize it.
Okay, now Java is not going to be Opensource - but does that preclude IBM contributing to Java in any way at all?
1) You can make your own java compiler.
2) You can make your own JVM.
3) You can make your own libraries.
4) Your java code can be open source.
What does making java "open source" mean? It means making the standard open. Why does the core java standard need to be open when you can write your own open source libraries? Sun already has a community process for adding features.
I know some distros and die hard GNU people dont like it just because its license but most people dont care about that and dont even ave a problem buying software when its warranted.
Let's all use .net, instead!
That'll show them.
Note for the sarcasm-impaired: Move along, now.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
What is the business case for Sun open sourcing Java? Try as I might, I can't think of any strong reasons for it.
One might argue that open sourcing the JVM and/or the Java standard libraries might be useful to allow people to create their own distributions for their specific platform, rather than doing a complete rewrite. I can see that being useful for platforms that aren't a priority for Sun.
The question is, though how would Sun make money from any of this (mind you, I doubt they make any money from it right now). Can anyone explain how Sun could benefit from open sourcing Java?
There is alot of comments in the JDK that say ... Taligent, which was an IBM owned company.
Copyright
Also all of the anti-alised rendering code (in c++) that is part of the Graphics2D is licensed from another company.
Open sourcing is therefore impossible without the permission of these companies.
Who cares if its not open-sourced. Its still a free download, and I also have access to the source code to check how things work.
Look at perl for example. Do you think it would be where it is today if it were closed source? It would probably be some hack that about 2 guys use.
Another poster already pointed out how java already meets all the criteria you posit as possibly attainable by java [only] were it open source. But I just wanted to point out that your post is wild speculation; you have zero knowledge about what Perl would be were it not-open source or what Java would be were it. As such, your post is devoid of any meaningful insight whatsoever, yet it attained +5 Insightful status before my very eyes.
I can only hope that meta-moderation repairs that; meanwhile no one has indicated any single (likely) benefit to Sun or Java programmers that will (likely) come from open-sourcing Java, without just staing this claim tautologically. Yet many, such as yourself, have strutted about empty arguments encouraging Sun to open Java source. I don't get it. Why?
everything in moderation
I've been working in an all-Java shop for close to 5 years now. One of the big headaches with Sun is the unenthusiastic response to some of the more obscure problems/bugs in the core API (especially around socket handling from what I've seen). Sun gives them low priority because they only affect sophisticated applications (touching rarely used parts of the API) where workarounds might be available. Man, there's a pointless stack trace dump in the HTML parser that's been annoyimg me for at LEAST 3 years. Some of these bugs have literally been out there for years. That would never fly in the open source community.
Of course, I can see their point of view also. Java is Sun's creation and giving it away does lose them a shiny badge of honor, since they wouldn't be able to market Java success as their own. And, open source APIs tend to advance so quickly that not-so-old APIs become obsoleted and incompatible. Open sourcers tend to be up to date with versioning, but this can become a big problem in corporate settings where a customer demands Java version X.1 for their environment, but your product ships with Java version X.2 (or vice versa). Java has essentially been backwards compatible since it's inception, disregarding the new classes.
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
Notice how TrollTech released a new free version of Qt Windows just about the time that KDE got their win32 port of the X11 source into a really advanced state? Not that it does much good on the ActiveX side of things, but I digress.
Or how about OpenMotif coming out just about the time the Hungry Programmers got LessTif pretty much finished?
I'm guessing that Java will be open sourced to the point where the distros can carry it...when and if the pressure from the free swing implementations and the GPL native java implementations mature, and the pressure from MS C#/dotNET and Mono efforts really start to gain momentum.
That's fine, Mr. McNealy. Go ahead and ignore the competition. But history has shown you're gonna lose control of java completely, sooner or later. By waiting, all you do is waste the time of the developers working on Mono, C#, Gnu java, Gnu Swing, etc...when they could be improving your product for free, and all the while poking a sharp stick in the eye of Bill Gates. This is a missed opportunity.
Still, you have to like Mr. McNealy. I think it was Linux expo 2001 when I heard him describe the merger between HP and Compaq as "...a head-on collision between two slow moving garbage trucks". That was prety damn funny. He's got his moments of leadership and clarity, so I guess that's why he heads up Sun Micro.
Holding back technology from the masses, hoping that the EU decision will help you come up with some type of closed model for domination (if that's what you are doing) is not quite as funny.
What is the real goal here? Maintaining enough control of the platform to insure a set of MS-compatibility libraries will be guaranteed to work with it, somehow restricted to your licensing schemes, without having to worry too much about the criticism of GNU/Hippies?
The claim of the "open source Java" group is that it benefits both Sun and libre software. I think we know why it's good for free software people, but why is it good for Sun? Adoption.
Ask yourself:
Would C++ have become the success it has been if:
1. You had to have a license from Sun to implement parts of it.
2. Sun had a big competitor, a Microsoft, with a similar but different "C++".
Without declaring it a mistake, we can at least say that not open sourcing Java is a big gamble, because item 1 means Sun doesn't have our considerable help and 2 means Sun needs it bad.
We have to conclude that Sun doesn't think it needs help. IMO, they desperately do.
Oh Lord. How is this Insightful? The Linux desktop was this ][ close to becoming irrelivant. Novell and Sun (of all companies) have revitalized the Linux desktop with SuSE and the release of the Java Desktop. Now, I agree, the name is stupid, but having installed many of Linux distrubutions in the past, I'm happy to spend the $50 to see what Sun's attempt looks like (granted, it's YaST2, but hey).
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, they've impressed the hell out of me. Redhat's been trying for years to do what Sun did in probably months.
I guess it remains to be seen how secure their distribution of a distribution ends up being, if people take it seriously enough, that is.
Sometimes it's nice to pay to play. And for this price, more power to them!
A programmer is a machine for converting coffee into code.
Java has a free implementation too. The difference is in Mono's case some of C# is open. Of course, some is not, and those are the APIs which Microsoft will change without warning to break everyone.
Now, Sun do a lot of annoying things, but when they break their APIs, they do tell everybody what has changed and how to deal with it.
Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
how much can FOSS implement C# before MS will change the implementation?
Not too much, given that Microsoft has submitted C#, .NET CIL, and .NET CLR to ECMA for standardisation. Microsoft may have a bit more leeway changing Windows.Forms, but I see nothing stopping a Win32 developer from choosing Gtk# rather than Windows.Forms.
Is it some kind of private fork of GCJ? Or does it work like Kaffe?
I'm confused.
I guess you could reverse-engineer kissme or SableVM, if you had to... but why bother making or using a proprietary JVM, when there are so many good (and improving!) free ones?
Evan Prodromou | evan@prodromou.name | http://evan.prodromou.name/
The ease of which you can make a verb out of a noun is a strong point of the English language.
.02 SEK.
In my native tounge, Swedish, verbs have to end with an a (with very few exceptions). Essentially, this makes it impossible to verbify nouns that end with a wovel in a good way.
My
Except for some extreme cases (cell phones, embedded hardware, etc) where Python won't do, why would you want to use Java where Python applies?
Python is a far more productive language than Java, even if it executes slower. For the small parts of code where execution performance is an issue, you can use Pyrex or C or hell, even Java. But why use Java for the larger part of the program?
Also note the Python VM is smaller, lighter and starts up more quickly.
Even in terms of portability/compatibility, it seems that Python is better on many platforms (Windows, GNU, and a few more).
It already has on Pocket PC - Sun refuse to give away a free JRE for Pocket PC, despite the fact its already written - Project Captain America.