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Custom Debian Distributions
Andreas Tille writes "When the first Custom Debian Distribution - Debian Junior - started in the beginning of 2000 we did not expect that this would perhaps lead to a new way Debian could support its end users in general. The next step forward was done in DebConf3 in Oslo when several developers who care about Custom Debian Distributions met in person and decided to work together more closely. Finally at OSWC conference in Malaga took place a workshop aiming at exactly this issue. The result of the conference was to write a paper about Custom Debian Distributions to explain to the public what we had done and what we want to do. This is an implicit call for participation for all those people inside and outside Debian who work on the same goal: Enhance the role of Debian as the missing link between upstream software developers and end users."
How does one help Debian copy-edit this piece? It really needs it. It was clearly written by a non-native English speaker, which is neither here nor there, but it does need some cleanup...
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The previous sig has been removed due to
Are those projects still in active development?
I would like to get involved in a distribution for lawyers... since I intend to become a lawyer before the year is up (taking the bar at the end of July).
There are a lot of distributions that are in a way or another "based" on debian (knoppix, mepis, xandros?, etc), whats the difference between those custom and the based on debian ones? Just the project that holds them? Is a technical difference or more like a political one?
I've been very impressed with the stability and with apt. I do wish that Debian had a little quicker package release but at the price, I really can't complain too much.
Yesterday I had a another wonderful experience during an install. We have an old Dell PowerEdge 2000 PIII 450 w/ Perc/SC2 raid. I was having trouble getting it going under the Woody install. For grins, I decided to try the Sarge installer . EVERYTHING just worked! It saw the Intel EEPro100 and the RAID controller - both of these were problematic under Woody.
Of course I would like a faster release and better hardware detection during install. Kudzu with Knoppix does work well. Packages that I want to run right now are still not packaged in .deb (Zope 2.7, Plone 2.0)but it's not a show-stopper.
The bottom line, Debian has the true open-source community and distribution. It has excellect quality control. It has excellent responsiveness to security issues. Debian has the potential to be the "one true distribution" and Sarge is looking very good!
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
"This is an implicit call for participation for all those people inside and outside Debian who work on the same goal..."
What the heck is an "implicit call for participation"?
I assume he means "explicit call for participation".
(Yeah, I know, welcome to Slashdot, yada yada ya...)
The main beef that people have with Debian is the dated packages.
While most of the trolls from Gentoo Zealots (No attack vs Gentoo here, I'm a Gentoo user myself) and the like are unfounded because they speak vs packages in Woody; there are still a ton of packages in sarge and sid that are less than current.
The problem with this is not the fault of the Debian Developers, it's the fact that Debian supports a vast number of architectures as well as a vast number of packages, causing QUITE alot to update, even with a minor version number change on one package.
NetBSD is the only platform other than debian to successfully nearly this many architectures. The way that NetBSD does it is source packaging; I do not think that this is the way for debian to go.
What needs to happen is a project to support Debian for a few platforms: the x86, the PPC, the sparc, and maybe two or three others. Classic Debian would run parallel to this, and obscure archs would still be supported.
Two new package trees, called something like desktop-sarge and desktop-sid, would be mirrors of the sid and sarge trees, but only support the major archs. This way, a DD doesn't have to compile vs 37 or whatever archs before he updates his package; the new version would come out for the major archs early, and the obscure archs could wait until however long it took.
Instead of everyone waiting for months.
I view Knoppix as a threat to adoption of Linux, risking marginalizing it as a toy or OS suitable for casual flirtation but undeserving of space on a harddrive. The ease it provides for a very shallow glimpse into Linux means that those trying it out never have to commit, and therefore never have to put effort into migration.
The natural human resistence to chance suggests that this will hinder the adoption of Linux on the desktop rather than spur it forward.
perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
I use both debian and gentoo.
One of the MAJOR advantages of gentoo is that it's easy to sit down for 20 minutes, learn how to create your own ebuilds, make one in 5 minutes and have it accepted the same day.
Debian just sucks for this.
Liberty.
Funny. I installed Debian Stable on my Apple Powerbook in about an hour. Then I changed my apt sources to unstable and ran "apt-get dist-upgrade" and had a nice current Debian Sid install in a few hours. Then I configured, compiled and dropped in my 2.6.4 kernel...Got Mac OS X running in Mac-on-Linux...Not hard really. But with Redhat I bet it would have been a nightmare.
On the other side, as someone who tries to help out with support, I see two general kinds of users. One is the type who just wants their hand held all the way through the process. They'll not bother to do a couple of google searches or search the Debian list archives. They won't bother with the manpage because "it takes too long to read" (as though logging in to IRC, asking your question, clarifying your question, and waiting for a response is any faster). Sometimes they'll even lie about what they actually did to their system. These people are amazing and get ridiculed. Those who troll and say "Debian sucks! I can't get this piece of crap to work, so I'm going to gentoo!" (as many people on slashdot recommend) tend to be astounded when the channel unanimously says "Ok, see ya later!" These people aren't treated very well, but that's because they're not treating anyone else very well in return.
On the other hand, users who ask smart questions and are willing to do some basic searches and reading are helped quite a bit. Many people in #debian genuinely try to help these people, because we can all see ourselves in this position. You're not guaranteed an answer, or even help (oftentimes no one can help with your question) but if you're willing to do a little bit of your own free tech support then you'll do just fine. Remember, when someone points you to a manpage or the Installation Manual (yes, there is one, and it's amazing how few people read it) it's not because they're being a dick, it's because the doc really does have the answer. An "RTFM" always comes with a pointer towards what to read in my experience, and if you're willing to listen you'll do fine.
Agreed. How do you expect to change that though? Debian is, by nature, a very open project, and as such places like debian-user and #debian are relatively unmoderated. Do you want to close off the lists somehow? Do you want to moderate them? Who do you propose to do the job? And by what guidelines? And by what mechanism? These are serious questions, and they don't have easy answers. "Fixing" a community isn't easy, and if you want to help I suggest hopping on debian-user or stopping by #debian and try and change things one user at a time.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
I've been handing Knoppix disks out to computer illiterate folks I know. They can use it as a toy, and get used to the idea that Linux is something they can use. Knoppix has some little games, a nice web browser, they can write stuff, they can get pictures from their digital cameras (I do have to show them how to do the last two things, since there aren't icons on the desktop for ``write a paper'' and ``digital camera''.).
For these guys, Knoppix means exposure to Linux, and just a little bit of familiarity and de-mistification. The lack of commitment is vital here: these guys are deathly afraid of screwing up their machines. This is definitely casual flirtation, but that's a huge step forward with this crowd.
I've been giving Knoppix disks to computer literate friends, too. For them, it's a chance to find out that Linux really does work on their hardware, that they really can do their work on it (they suspect that's true, so they're interested), and that they really can install it and keep it up to date.
For this bunch, there is usually some Linux application that they want to run, but the new set of system administration tasks and the installation difficulty scares them off. With Knoppix, they can see how easy it is to install, and they can seriously evaluate it. This is FAR from casual flirtation! Not all of this crowd winds up using Linux daily, but most of them wind up with it on their hard drives, and their minds are opened a bit.
Over all, I'd say that Knoppix is doing a lot of good. It's letting people progress a lot farther towards using Linux than they would ever go without this sort of distribution.
See what I've been reading.